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Re: Motorsailing?

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  • john_cockerham3
    I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the 25 shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an eighteen-foot-long
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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      I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the 25" shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an eighteen-foot-long barge at hull speed using about half throttle. So far I've been pleased with performance and the 5-amp charger supplies my meager electrical needs.
      John


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
      >
      > Forgot to add the link to the last post.
      >
      > http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
      >
      > Nels - a bit spacey myself on this New Years Eve:-)
      >
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tohatsu recently introduced it's new "Sail Pro" 6 hp 4-stroke,
      > > specifically designed for sailboats.
      >
    • Nels A
      Hi John, Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an excellent choice for that hull design. I have heard from another sailor that he really likes the standard
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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        Hi John,

        Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an excellent choice for that hull
        design. I have heard from another sailor that he really likes the
        standard version and recommends it highly.

        Two things I am curious about:

        How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at half-throttle? I
        believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run at a
        higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder. Tohatsu does mention
        that the underwater exhaust really helps quiet things.

        Secondly, where do they measure the shaft length from? Is it from the
        engine clamp location to the bottom of the skeg? How far down below the
        hull is your prop?

        I also expect some might be interested in the clearance it requires to
        be tilted upwards.

        OK sorry - that is more like 4 questions.

        Nels


        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "john_cockerham3" <john_cockerham3@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the 25"
        shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an
        eighteen-foot-long barge at hull speed using about half throttle. So
        far I've been pleased with performance and the 5-amp charger supplies my
        meager electrical needs.
        > John
        >
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Forgot to add the link to the last post.
        > >
        > > http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
        > >
        > > Nels - a bit spacey myself on this New Years Eve:-)
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Tohatsu recently introduced it's new "Sail Pro" 6 hp 4-stroke,
        > > > specifically designed for sailboats.
        > >
        >
      • Andres Espino
        Regarding exhaust.. it is worth mentioning that many fresh water bodies of water prohibit 2 cycle engines OR the venting of exhaust into the water.  Instead
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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          Regarding exhaust.. it is worth mentioning that many fresh water bodies of water prohibit 2 cycle engines OR the venting of exhaust into the water.  Instead must be outboards with air exhaust and suitable muffler.

          Andrew



          --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Nels A <arvent@...> wrote:

          From: Nels A <arvent@...>
          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 11:39 AM







           









          Hi John,



          Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an excellent choice for that hull

          design. I have heard from another sailor that he really likes the

          standard version and recommends it highly.



          Two things I am curious about:



          How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at half-throttle? I

          believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run at a

          higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder. Tohatsu does mention

          that the underwater exhaust really helps quiet things.



          Secondly, where do they measure the shaft length from? Is it from the

          engine clamp location to the bottom of the skeg? How far down below the

          hull is your prop?



          I also expect some might be interested in the clearance it requires to

          be tilted upwards.



          OK sorry - that is more like 4 questions.



          Nels



          --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "john_cockerham3" <john_cockerham3@ ...>

          wrote:

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the 25"

          shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an

          eighteen-foot- long barge at hull speed using about half throttle. So

          far I've been pleased with performance and the 5-amp charger supplies my

          meager electrical needs.

          > John

          >

          >

          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:

          > >

          > > Forgot to add the link to the last post.

          > >

          > > http://www.tohatsu com/outboards/ 6_4st.html

          > >

          > > Nels - a bit spacey myself on this New Years Eve:-)

          > >

          > >

          > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:

          > > >

          > > > Tohatsu recently introduced it's new "Sail Pro" 6 hp 4-stroke,

          > > > specifically designed for sailboats.

          > >

          >

























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter
          ... I am aware that in the USA there are a few lakes that prohibit 2-cycle engines; Lake Tahoe and some city reservoirs come to mind. I don t believe that
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
            >
            > Regarding exhaust.. it is worth mentioning that many fresh water bodies of water prohibit 2 cycle engines OR the venting of exhaust into the water.  Instead must be outboards with air exhaust and suitable muffler.
            >
            > Andrew
            >



            I am aware that in the USA there are a few lakes that prohibit
            2-cycle engines; Lake Tahoe and some city reservoirs come to mind.
            I don't believe that such restrictions are wide-spread at this point
            in time.

            I am not aware of any waters in the USA that prohibit underwater exhaust, although I will not say that there are none.

            Minimizing polution should be a goal of all of us who utilize the waters of our planet, without doubt, but I am loath to fault the individual with a tiny auxiliary engine on his sailboat as he/she glides across waters frequented by high speed fiberglass production boats propelled by massive V6 outboard motors or marinized "big-block" automotive engines.





            P. Beckford
          • owen
            Nels and Stan, I am dreaming along those lines with my Twister. I like the jukebox3 pilot house idea very much, like you say it is a bit too much for me to
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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              Nels and Stan, I am dreaming along those lines with my Twister. I like the jukebox3 pilot house idea very much, like you say it is a bit too much for me to tow at present but I really like pilot houses. I am thinking of how to make a dodger for my twister. A self bailing cockpit is something to ponder over as well, so many options :)

              I got the rear deck put on this afternoon, I put pictures in the twister folder.

              Owen





              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
              >
              > Right on Stan,
              >
              > I have the Jukebox3 plans and also am considering the Long Micro with
              > similar pilothouse added.
              >
              > Both these designs are more suited to being kept on a mooring as they
              > are not so easy to trailer - let alone with a small 4 banger econo
              > vehicle.The advantage is that one could go out for two weeks or longer
              > with such a design.
              >
              > A small folding dodger added to Twister offers some versatility in that
              > regard as it is quite trailerable and still offers a fair degree of
              > shelter if the weather turns cool or rainy. Disadvantage, in my view is
              > lack of a self-draining cockpit if caught out under a down pour. Would
              > be interesting to deck over the cockpit like on Micro and Blobster for
              > example.
              >
              > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/blobster/index.htm
              >
              > Small hatch over the foot-well and drains outboard on the enclosed deck
              > aft.
              >
              > One could still handle the steering and sails while inside if steering
              > lines ran in under the cabin as well as the trolling motor controls.
              >
              > I like the idea of a small motorsailer with ability to sail/motor from
              > inside. Yet still a nice little cockpit when the weather is nice.
              >
              > A motor sailer can be quite small in my view:-)
              >
              > Nels
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The other aspect of motorsailing is to have a boat that is actually
              > designed for that purpose. I'm thinking of a boat with a pilot house
              > cabin, short rig, and economical motor. There was an article in
              > Duckworks about "Terminal Trawlers". The idea was to buy a used cabin
              > sailboat, mount a larger than normal 4 stroke outboard and motor most of
              > the time. The Jukebox design with an enlarged pilot house might be a
              > good motorsailer. Certainly the pilot house would extend your sailing
              > season up in the North country.
              > >
              > > Stan
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Very strange Stan, since my previous location often had too much
              > wind as
              > > > you refer to. Sailing with jib only while hanging over the rail gets
              > old
              > > > fast as well:-)
              > > >
              > > > So drifting along in light zephyrs is a different experience. Thus
              > my
              > > > interest in some kind of way to get to the next patch of ripples
              > showing
              > > > up on the surface.
              > > >
              > > > Great responses. A trolling motor seems to be a viable solution. A
              > > > couple of deep-cycle batteries add ballast as well if strapped down
              > > > properly amidships. Already have a pretty good solar panel with
              > > > controller and we get lots of sun here in summer. (4 AM to 10 PM in
              > > > mid-summer.)
              > > >
              > > > I looked at going electric only, but available locations to
              > re-charge
              > > > batteries are few and far between where I am located. Plus I am not
              > > > attracted to having to find a marina and pay the fees to get a
              > hookup.
              > > > Especially with a Michalak design, that I can tie up at in any
              > little
              > > > cove.
              > > >
              > > > I do have a small gen-set but then you have to carry gas anyway, why
              > not
              > > > just have a small outboard instead?
              > > >
              > > > Planning must be done with your sailing location in mind. Really
              > find
              > > > the comment as seeing a trolling motor as a disposable tool
              > interesting.
              > > >
              > > > Nels
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > It must be strange to be in a predominant light air region with a
              > > > sailboat. The typical summer wind on the Gulf coast is over 20mph
              > and
              > > > usually quite a challenge for small boats. In the winter we have a
              > lot
              > > > of light winds and calm waters, so everyone gets a variety of
              > > > experiences. Personally I don't like light winds and drifting
              > around
              > > > very much, it is much harder to sail in for me.
              > > > >
              > > > > Stan
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • John Kohnen
              I ve never heard of a rule like that, Andrew. Do you have any links that might enlighten us? The only currently made 4-stroke outboard with an air exhaust is
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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                I've never heard of a rule like that, Andrew. Do you have any links that
                might enlighten us? The only currently made 4-stroke outboard with an air
                exhaust is the Honda 2 (maybe -- they've used both water exhaust and air
                exhaust over the years; my air-cooled mid-nineties Honda 2 has a below
                water exhaust), unless Briggs & Stratten are still making their outboard...

                Nels, a one cylinder engine doesn't have to turn faster to make the same
                power as a two cylinder one. The engine speed has to do with engine
                capacity (displacement) for a given power, and other tuning concerns.
                Roughly, a 5 cu. in. engine would have to turn much faster to produce 5
                hp. than a 10 cu. in. engine would, but a 10 cu. in. one cylinder engine
                and a 10 cu. in. two cylinder engine would turn about the same speed to
                produce 5 hp. The one cylinder engine _sounds_ like it's turning slower,
                because it has half the number of explosions per minute...

                On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:48:44 -0800, Andrew E wrote:

                > Regarding exhaust.. it is worth mentioning that many fresh water bodies
                > of water prohibit 2 cycle engines OR the venting of exhaust into the
                > water. Instead must be outboards with air exhaust and suitable muffler.

                > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Nels A <arvent@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Nels A <arvent@...>
                > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?
                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 11:39 AM
                > ...
                > How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at half-throttle? I
                >
                > believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run at a
                >
                > higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder.
                > ...

                --
                John (jkohnen@...)
                The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you
                can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying
                virtues. (Elizabeth Taylor)
              • Andres Espino
                Depends on your state I suppose.  There is no statewide or CG rules that I know of that covers everywhere in the US. As someone mentioned, much fishing is
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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                  Depends on your state I suppose.  There is no statewide or CG rules that I know of that covers everywhere in the US.

                  As someone mentioned, much fishing is done on fresh water reservoirs that supplies municipal drinking water or is for fish hatcheries.  Your reservoir authority posts rules for their particular location.  I have gone to several where I could not use my outboard period.  Use was limited to electric trolling motors, row and sail and as I was fishing anyway, I took the trolling motor.   My point was that you will sometimes encounter places like that if you travel around between inland fresh water lakes and reservoirs for camping or fishing. 

                  Among places I have encountered it specifically were Lake Tahoe, California/Nevada,  Waterbury Reservoir (big one) near Stowe, Vermont, and two fishing reservoirs in Texas.  Doubtless there are countless more.  I was told basically don't plan on using gas outboards in any municipal fresh water reservoir or lake/pond with a fish hatchery, because the exhaust imparts toxic gasses into the water.

                  Andrew



                  --- On Fri, 1/1/10, John Kohnen <jhkohnen@...> wrote:

                  From: John Kohnen <jhkohnen@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 6:38 PM

                  I've never heard of a rule like that, Andrew. Do you have any links that 
                  might enlighten us? The only currently made 4-stroke outboard with an air 
                  exhaust is the Honda 2 (maybe -- they've used both water exhaust and air 
                  exhaust over the years; my air-cooled mid-nineties Honda 2 has a below 
                  water exhaust), unless Briggs & Stratten are still making their outboard...

                  Nels, a one cylinder engine doesn't have to turn faster to make the same 
                  power as a two cylinder one. The engine speed has to do with engine 
                  capacity (displacement) for a given power,  and other tuning concerns. 
                  Roughly, a 5 cu. in. engine would have to turn much faster to produce 5 
                  hp. than a 10 cu. in. engine would, but a 10 cu. in. one cylinder engine 
                  and a 10 cu. in. two cylinder engine would turn about the same speed to 
                  produce 5 hp. The one cylinder engine _sounds_ like it's turning slower, 
                  because it has half the number of explosions per minute...

                  On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:48:44 -0800, Andrew E wrote:

                  > Regarding exhaust.. it is worth mentioning that many fresh water bodies 
                  > of water prohibit 2 cycle engines OR the venting of exhaust into the 
                  > water.  Instead must be outboards with air exhaust and suitable muffler.

                  > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Nels A <arvent@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Nels A <arvent@...>
                  > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?
                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 11:39 AM
                  > ...
                  > How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at half-throttle? I
                  >
                  > believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run at a
                  >
                  > higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder.
                  > ...

                  --
                  John (jkohnen@...)
                  The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you
                  can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying
                  virtues. (Elizabeth Taylor)


                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Bell
                  Before anyone gets too alarmed, there aren t that many places you can t use your outboard. The restrictions are mostly on very small reservoirs and the rules
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 1, 2010
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                    Before anyone gets too alarmed, there aren't that many places you can't use
                    your outboard. The restrictions are mostly on very small reservoirs and the
                    rules don't always make a lot sense. For instance, Quabbin Reservior in MA
                    discussed in this month's MAIB. Motorboats under 20 HP are allowed, but not
                    sailboats, canoes, or kayaks! We have an similar situation on the Dog River
                    Reservoir near Atlanta where canoes and kayaks are prohibited, but "fishing"
                    boats are allowed.

                    Bob Hicks wrote: "The apparent conflict between preserving the pristine
                    water quality on the Quabbin for Boston's water supply and emphasizing
                    motorboat use on the water is due to the fact that many fishermen and and
                    hunters from rural areas of the state and are elected to the state
                    legislature. Long ago, legislation establishing the rules and regulations
                    took into account their interests. These rules have nothing to do
                    preservation..."

                    FWIW, Allatoona Reservoir where my drinking water is drawn has boats up to
                    100' on it. My guess is there isn't a hundred boats out of thousands on the
                    whole lake that don't have underwater exhausts. The danger is way overblown,
                    IMO.

                    Except for a very few jurisdictions will there be a ban on 2-strokes or
                    underwater exhausts. Imposing such a ban would political suicide for the
                    bureaucrat or legislator that proposes it. See Bob Hicks' words above.

                    Full disclosure, I own a boat with a big two stroke outboard docked not more
                    than a mile from the water intake where all my drinking water comes from.

                    On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:10 PM, Andres Espino <
                    ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Depends on your state I suppose. There is no statewide or CG rules that I
                    > know of that covers everywhere in the US.
                    >
                    > As someone mentioned, much fishing is done on fresh water reservoirs that
                    > supplies municipal drinking water or is for fish hatcheries. Your reservoir
                    > authority posts rules for their particular location. I have gone to several
                    > where I could not use my outboard period. Use was limited to electric
                    > trolling motors, row and sail and as I was fishing anyway, I took the
                    > trolling motor. My point was that you will sometimes encounter places like
                    > that if you travel around between inland fresh water lakes and reservoirs
                    > for camping or fishing.
                    >
                    > Among places I have encountered it specifically were Lake Tahoe,
                    > California/Nevada, Waterbury Reservoir (big one) near Stowe, Vermont, and
                    > two fishing reservoirs in Texas. Doubtless there are countless more. I was
                    > told basically don't plan on using gas outboards in any municipal fresh
                    > water reservoir or lake/pond with a fish hatchery, because the exhaust
                    > imparts toxic gasses into the water.
                    >
                    > Andrew
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, John Kohnen <jhkohnen@...<jhkohnen%40boat-links.com>>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > From: John Kohnen <jhkohnen@... <jhkohnen%40boat-links.com>>
                    > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?
                    > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 6:38 PM
                    >
                    >
                    > I've never heard of a rule like that, Andrew. Do you have any links that
                    > might enlighten us? The only currently made 4-stroke outboard with an air
                    > exhaust is the Honda 2 (maybe -- they've used both water exhaust and air
                    > exhaust over the years; my air-cooled mid-nineties Honda 2 has a below
                    > water exhaust), unless Briggs & Stratten are still making their outboard...
                    >
                    > Nels, a one cylinder engine doesn't have to turn faster to make the same
                    > power as a two cylinder one. The engine speed has to do with engine
                    > capacity (displacement) for a given power, and other tuning concerns.
                    > Roughly, a 5 cu. in. engine would have to turn much faster to produce 5
                    > hp. than a 10 cu. in. engine would, but a 10 cu. in. one cylinder engine
                    > and a 10 cu. in. two cylinder engine would turn about the same speed to
                    > produce 5 hp. The one cylinder engine _sounds_ like it's turning slower,
                    > because it has half the number of explosions per minute...
                    >
                    > On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:48:44 -0800, Andrew E wrote:
                    >
                    > > Regarding exhaust.. it is worth mentioning that many fresh water bodies
                    > > of water prohibit 2 cycle engines OR the venting of exhaust into the
                    > > water. Instead must be outboards with air exhaust and suitable muffler.
                    >
                    > > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Nels A <arvent@... <arvent%40hotmail.com>>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: Nels A <arvent@... <arvent%40hotmail.com>>
                    > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?
                    > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 11:39 AM
                    > > ...
                    > > How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at half-throttle? I
                    > >
                    > > believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run at a
                    > >
                    > > higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder.
                    > > ...
                    >
                    > --
                    > John (jkohnen@... <jkohnen%40boat-links.com>)
                    > The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you
                    > can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying
                    > virtues. (Elizabeth Taylor)
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • john_cockerham3
                    Hi Nels The motor is fairly quite allowing normal conversation in the cockpit, but if someone in the bow is speaking, I back off to ¼ throttle to hear
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 2, 2010
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                      Hi Nels

                      The motor is fairly quite allowing normal conversation in the cockpit, but if someone in the bow is speaking, I back off to ¼ throttle to hear clearly. Noise is more apparent now that the bimini to has been installed. The top must reflect some of the noise back into the cockpit. I think engine vibrates a little more than my brother-in-law's 2-cylinder Johnson.


                      The distance from the top of the mounting clamp to the center of the propeller is 32 inches. The distance from where leg and foot join with the engine assembly to the center of the propeller is 25 inches. The motor is mounted to an adjustable bracket with 13 inches of clearance to the transom, which allows complete tilting.

                      John

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi John,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an excellent choice for that hull
                      > design. I have heard from another sailor that he really likes the
                      > standard version and recommends it highly.
                      >
                      > Two things I am curious about:
                      >
                      > How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at half-throttle? I
                      > believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run at a
                      > higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder. Tohatsu does mention
                      > that the underwater exhaust really helps quiet things.
                      >
                      > Secondly, where do they measure the shaft length from? Is it from the
                      > engine clamp location to the bottom of the skeg? How far down below the
                      > hull is your prop?
                      >
                      > I also expect some might be interested in the clearance it requires to
                      > be tilted upwards.
                      >
                      > OK sorry - that is more like 4 questions.
                      >
                      > Nels
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "john_cockerham3" <john_cockerham3@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the 25"
                      > shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an
                      > eighteen-foot-long barge at hull speed using about half throttle. So
                      > far I've been pleased with performance and the 5-amp charger supplies my
                      > meager electrical needs.
                      > > John
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Forgot to add the link to the last post.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
                      > > >
                      > > > Nels - a bit spacey myself on this New Years Eve:-)
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Tohatsu recently introduced it's new "Sail Pro" 6 hp 4-stroke,
                      > > > > specifically designed for sailboats.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Nels A
                      Thanks John, and John (Kohnen) and John (Bell) First, the leg measurements of the 25 inch version of the 6 HP Tohatsu are really significant for a shallow
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 2, 2010
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                        Thanks John, and John (Kohnen) and John (Bell)

                        First, the leg measurements of the 25 inch version of the 6 HP Tohatsu
                        are really significant for a shallow draft hull that may draw 12" or
                        less. I wonder how well it does in shallow drive mode at 1/4 throttle.
                        But you might want to go slow in those circumstances anyway. I really
                        like the idea of a 9" prop, which is also available on the shorter leg
                        versions I see now. And the alternator is an option.

                        Vibration is a factor with a one cylinder engine as compared to the 2
                        cylinder (8 HP) version which has an overhead cam as well. But now you
                        are looking at 81 pounds vs: 55! And the purchase prices also go way up.
                        The 9.8 is the same weight as the 8 but goes even further up the price
                        ladder.

                        Here in Canada, there are a lot of small lakes closed to gas outboards.
                        Many others closed to gas outboards over 10 HP. So sport fishers have a
                        9.8 or 9.9 in addition to their big motors. And a trolling motor as
                        well. I think a lot of this has to do with both noise pollution and wake
                        affects to nesting birds from the faster boats. A loon's nest can be
                        washed out by one pass from a big boat and many small lakes have
                        cottages along the shore and they are there for the quietness. Many guys
                        who fish also have a kayak now, specifically designed for fishing from.
                        Has become a whole new industry for the manufacturers.

                        Nels






                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "john_cockerham3" <john_cockerham3@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Nels
                        >
                        > The motor is fairly quite allowing normal conversation in the cockpit,
                        but if someone in the bow is speaking, I back off to ¼ throttle to
                        hear clearly. Noise is more apparent now that the bimini to has been
                        installed. The top must reflect some of the noise back into the
                        cockpit. I think engine vibrates a little more than my brother-in-law's
                        2-cylinder Johnson.
                        >
                        >
                        > The distance from the top of the mounting clamp to the center of the
                        propeller is 32 inches. The distance from where leg and foot join with
                        the engine assembly to the center of the propeller is 25 inches. The
                        motor is mounted to an adjustable bracket with 13 inches of clearance to
                        the transom, which allows complete tilting.
                        >
                        > John
                        >
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi John,
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an excellent choice for that
                        hull
                        > > design. I have heard from another sailor that he really likes the
                        > > standard version and recommends it highly.
                        > >
                        > > Two things I am curious about:
                        > >
                        > > How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at
                        half-throttle? I
                        > > believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run
                        at a
                        > > higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder. Tohatsu does
                        mention
                        > > that the underwater exhaust really helps quiet things.
                        > >
                        > > Secondly, where do they measure the shaft length from? Is it from
                        the
                        > > engine clamp location to the bottom of the skeg? How far down below
                        the
                        > > hull is your prop?
                        > >
                        > > I also expect some might be interested in the clearance it requires
                        to
                        > > be tilted upwards.
                        > >
                        > > OK sorry - that is more like 4 questions.
                        > >
                        > > Nels
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "john_cockerham3"
                        <john_cockerham3@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the
                        25"
                        > > shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an
                        > > eighteen-foot-long barge at hull speed using about half throttle.
                        So
                        > > far I've been pleased with performance and the 5-amp charger
                        supplies my
                        > > meager electrical needs.
                        > > > John
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Forgot to add the link to the last post.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Nels - a bit spacey myself on this New Years Eve:-)
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tohatsu recently introduced it's new "Sail Pro" 6 hp 4-stroke,
                        > > > > > specifically designed for sailboats.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Carl Haddick
                        Despite how I feel about sailing, I like my motor. It s just another tool, and it sounds so nice when I hit the kill switch. :-) One time I had a fouled
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 3, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Despite how I feel about sailing, I like my motor. It's just another tool,
                          and it sounds so nice when I hit the kill switch. :-)



                          One time I had a fouled centerboard pennant on a production boat, and still
                          went out for a quick spin. I was under power the whole time because I
                          couldn't sail well, and not at all to windward without a centerboard.



                          Sure was a funny feeling, being downwind of the ramp in too much wind to
                          paddle against. Motors are fine, but I'd be nervous having to depend on
                          one. Silly, probably, but I guess it's because I will always be a sail
                          enthusiast.



                          Carl



                          From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Nels A
                          Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 5:26 PM
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Motorsailing?





                          Thanks John, and John (Kohnen) and John (Bell)

                          First, the leg measurements of the 25 inch version of the 6 HP Tohatsu
                          are really significant for a shallow draft hull that may draw 12" or
                          less. I wonder how well it does in shallow drive mode at 1/4 throttle.
                          But you might want to go slow in those circumstances anyway. I really
                          like the idea of a 9" prop, which is also available on the shorter leg
                          versions I see now. And the alternator is an option.

                          Vibration is a factor with a one cylinder engine as compared to the 2
                          cylinder (8 HP) version which has an overhead cam as well. But now you
                          are looking at 81 pounds vs: 55! And the purchase prices also go way up.
                          The 9.8 is the same weight as the 8 but goes even further up the price
                          ladder.

                          Here in Canada, there are a lot of small lakes closed to gas outboards.
                          Many others closed to gas outboards over 10 HP. So sport fishers have a
                          9.8 or 9.9 in addition to their big motors. And a trolling motor as
                          well. I think a lot of this has to do with both noise pollution and wake
                          affects to nesting birds from the faster boats. A loon's nest can be
                          washed out by one pass from a big boat and many small lakes have
                          cottages along the shore and they are there for the quietness. Many guys
                          who fish also have a kayak now, specifically designed for fishing from.
                          Has become a whole new industry for the manufacturers.

                          Nels

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                          "john_cockerham3" <john_cockerham3@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Nels
                          >
                          > The motor is fairly quite allowing normal conversation in the cockpit,
                          but if someone in the bow is speaking, I back off to ¼ throttle to
                          hear clearly. Noise is more apparent now that the bimini to has been
                          installed. The top must reflect some of the noise back into the
                          cockpit. I think engine vibrates a little more than my brother-in-law's
                          2-cylinder Johnson.
                          >
                          >
                          > The distance from the top of the mounting clamp to the center of the
                          propeller is 32 inches. The distance from where leg and foot join with
                          the engine assembly to the center of the propeller is 25 inches. The
                          motor is mounted to an adjustable bracket with 13 inches of clearance to
                          the transom, which allows complete tilting.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                          "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi John,
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an excellent choice for that
                          hull
                          > > design. I have heard from another sailor that he really likes the
                          > > standard version and recommends it highly.
                          > >
                          > > Two things I am curious about:
                          > >
                          > > How would you evaluate the noise level when cruising at
                          half-throttle? I
                          > > believe a one-cylinder engine is a bit more noisy as it has to run
                          at a
                          > > higher rpm to get the same power as a 2 cylinder. Tohatsu does
                          mention
                          > > that the underwater exhaust really helps quiet things.
                          > >
                          > > Secondly, where do they measure the shaft length from? Is it from
                          the
                          > > engine clamp location to the bottom of the skeg? How far down below
                          the
                          > > hull is your prop?
                          > >
                          > > I also expect some might be interested in the clearance it requires
                          to
                          > > be tilted upwards.
                          > >
                          > > OK sorry - that is more like 4 questions.
                          > >
                          > > Nels
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                          "john_cockerham3"
                          <john_cockerham3@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I use this engine to power my Escargot canal boat. I needed the
                          25"
                          > > shaft because of the high transom. It pushes what is essentially an
                          > > eighteen-foot-long barge at hull speed using about half throttle.
                          So
                          > > far I've been pleased with performance and the 5-amp charger
                          supplies my
                          > > meager electrical needs.
                          > > > John
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                          "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Forgot to add the link to the last post.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/6_4st.html
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Nels - a bit spacey myself on this New Years Eve:-)
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          , "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Tohatsu recently introduced it's new "Sail Pro" 6 hp 4-stroke,
                          > > > > > specifically designed for sailboats.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • scr243
                          Owen, What about just a folding bimini top? Make it long enough to shade the useful parts of the cockpit. Seems like it would be more useful for cruising
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 4, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Owen,

                            What about just a folding bimini top? Make it long enough to shade the useful parts of the cockpit. Seems like it would be more useful for cruising than a dodger which just shades the companionway and bridgedeck. You can always add a small shade tarp over the cabin to cool it down when you anchor or tie up. If you plan on camping in the summer, don't forget the cabin fan and mosquito netting on the companionway. That's a good design, make it comfy.

                            Stan

                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "owen" <obuerkle@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Nels and Stan, I am dreaming along those lines with my Twister. I like the jukebox3 pilot house idea very much, like you say it is a bit too much for me to tow at present but I really like pilot houses. I am thinking of how to make a dodger for my twister. A self bailing cockpit is something to ponder over as well, so many options :)
                            >
                            > I got the rear deck put on this afternoon, I put pictures in the twister folder.
                            >
                            > Owen
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Right on Stan,
                            > >
                            > > I have the Jukebox3 plans and also am considering the Long Micro with
                            > > similar pilothouse added.
                            > >
                            > > Both these designs are more suited to being kept on a mooring as they
                            > > are not so easy to trailer - let alone with a small 4 banger econo
                            > > vehicle.The advantage is that one could go out for two weeks or longer
                            > > with such a design.
                            > >
                            > > A small folding dodger added to Twister offers some versatility in that
                            > > regard as it is quite trailerable and still offers a fair degree of
                            > > shelter if the weather turns cool or rainy. Disadvantage, in my view is
                            > > lack of a self-draining cockpit if caught out under a down pour. Would
                            > > be interesting to deck over the cockpit like on Micro and Blobster for
                            > > example.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/blobster/index.htm
                            > >
                            > > Small hatch over the foot-well and drains outboard on the enclosed deck
                            > > aft.
                            > >
                            > > One could still handle the steering and sails while inside if steering
                            > > lines ran in under the cabin as well as the trolling motor controls.
                            > >
                            > > I like the idea of a small motorsailer with ability to sail/motor from
                            > > inside. Yet still a nice little cockpit when the weather is nice.
                            > >
                            > > A motor sailer can be quite small in my view:-)
                            > >
                            > > Nels
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > The other aspect of motorsailing is to have a boat that is actually
                            > > designed for that purpose. I'm thinking of a boat with a pilot house
                            > > cabin, short rig, and economical motor. There was an article in
                            > > Duckworks about "Terminal Trawlers". The idea was to buy a used cabin
                            > > sailboat, mount a larger than normal 4 stroke outboard and motor most of
                            > > the time. The Jukebox design with an enlarged pilot house might be a
                            > > good motorsailer. Certainly the pilot house would extend your sailing
                            > > season up in the North country.
                            > > >
                            > > > Stan
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Very strange Stan, since my previous location often had too much
                            > > wind as
                            > > > > you refer to. Sailing with jib only while hanging over the rail gets
                            > > old
                            > > > > fast as well:-)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So drifting along in light zephyrs is a different experience. Thus
                            > > my
                            > > > > interest in some kind of way to get to the next patch of ripples
                            > > showing
                            > > > > up on the surface.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Great responses. A trolling motor seems to be a viable solution. A
                            > > > > couple of deep-cycle batteries add ballast as well if strapped down
                            > > > > properly amidships. Already have a pretty good solar panel with
                            > > > > controller and we get lots of sun here in summer. (4 AM to 10 PM in
                            > > > > mid-summer.)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I looked at going electric only, but available locations to
                            > > re-charge
                            > > > > batteries are few and far between where I am located. Plus I am not
                            > > > > attracted to having to find a marina and pay the fees to get a
                            > > hookup.
                            > > > > Especially with a Michalak design, that I can tie up at in any
                            > > little
                            > > > > cove.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I do have a small gen-set but then you have to carry gas anyway, why
                            > > not
                            > > > > just have a small outboard instead?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Planning must be done with your sailing location in mind. Really
                            > > find
                            > > > > the comment as seeing a trolling motor as a disposable tool
                            > > interesting.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Nels
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It must be strange to be in a predominant light air region with a
                            > > > > sailboat. The typical summer wind on the Gulf coast is over 20mph
                            > > and
                            > > > > usually quite a challenge for small boats. In the winter we have a
                            > > lot
                            > > > > of light winds and calm waters, so everyone gets a variety of
                            > > > > experiences. Personally I don't like light winds and drifting
                            > > around
                            > > > > very much, it is much harder to sail in for me.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Stan
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • owen
                            That might be easier to build as well. I think you are right it would be better overall, especially when the boat is moored or parked on the beach and is just
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 4, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That might be easier to build as well. I think you are right it would be better overall, especially when the boat is moored or parked on the beach and is just a mobile camping spot. I never thought of mosquito netting, that is probably more important than anything...

                              Owen


                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Owen,
                              >
                              > What about just a folding bimini top? Make it long enough to shade the useful parts of the cockpit. Seems like it would be more useful for cruising than a dodger which just shades the companionway and bridgedeck. You can always add a small shade tarp over the cabin to cool it down when you anchor or tie up. If you plan on camping in the summer, don't forget the cabin fan and mosquito netting on the companionway. That's a good design, make it comfy.
                              >
                              > Stan
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "owen" <obuerkle@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Nels and Stan, I am dreaming along those lines with my Twister. I like the jukebox3 pilot house idea very much, like you say it is a bit too much for me to tow at present but I really like pilot houses. I am thinking of how to make a dodger for my twister. A self bailing cockpit is something to ponder over as well, so many options :)
                              > >
                              > > I got the rear deck put on this afternoon, I put pictures in the twister folder.
                              > >
                              > > Owen
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Right on Stan,
                              > > >
                              > > > I have the Jukebox3 plans and also am considering the Long Micro with
                              > > > similar pilothouse added.
                              > > >
                              > > > Both these designs are more suited to being kept on a mooring as they
                              > > > are not so easy to trailer - let alone with a small 4 banger econo
                              > > > vehicle.The advantage is that one could go out for two weeks or longer
                              > > > with such a design.
                              > > >
                              > > > A small folding dodger added to Twister offers some versatility in that
                              > > > regard as it is quite trailerable and still offers a fair degree of
                              > > > shelter if the weather turns cool or rainy. Disadvantage, in my view is
                              > > > lack of a self-draining cockpit if caught out under a down pour. Would
                              > > > be interesting to deck over the cockpit like on Micro and Blobster for
                              > > > example.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/blobster/index.htm
                              > > >
                              > > > Small hatch over the foot-well and drains outboard on the enclosed deck
                              > > > aft.
                              > > >
                              > > > One could still handle the steering and sails while inside if steering
                              > > > lines ran in under the cabin as well as the trolling motor controls.
                              > > >
                              > > > I like the idea of a small motorsailer with ability to sail/motor from
                              > > > inside. Yet still a nice little cockpit when the weather is nice.
                              > > >
                              > > > A motor sailer can be quite small in my view:-)
                              > > >
                              > > > Nels
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The other aspect of motorsailing is to have a boat that is actually
                              > > > designed for that purpose. I'm thinking of a boat with a pilot house
                              > > > cabin, short rig, and economical motor. There was an article in
                              > > > Duckworks about "Terminal Trawlers". The idea was to buy a used cabin
                              > > > sailboat, mount a larger than normal 4 stroke outboard and motor most of
                              > > > the time. The Jukebox design with an enlarged pilot house might be a
                              > > > good motorsailer. Certainly the pilot house would extend your sailing
                              > > > season up in the North country.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Stan
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Very strange Stan, since my previous location often had too much
                              > > > wind as
                              > > > > > you refer to. Sailing with jib only while hanging over the rail gets
                              > > > old
                              > > > > > fast as well:-)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > So drifting along in light zephyrs is a different experience. Thus
                              > > > my
                              > > > > > interest in some kind of way to get to the next patch of ripples
                              > > > showing
                              > > > > > up on the surface.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Great responses. A trolling motor seems to be a viable solution. A
                              > > > > > couple of deep-cycle batteries add ballast as well if strapped down
                              > > > > > properly amidships. Already have a pretty good solar panel with
                              > > > > > controller and we get lots of sun here in summer. (4 AM to 10 PM in
                              > > > > > mid-summer.)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I looked at going electric only, but available locations to
                              > > > re-charge
                              > > > > > batteries are few and far between where I am located. Plus I am not
                              > > > > > attracted to having to find a marina and pay the fees to get a
                              > > > hookup.
                              > > > > > Especially with a Michalak design, that I can tie up at in any
                              > > > little
                              > > > > > cove.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I do have a small gen-set but then you have to carry gas anyway, why
                              > > > not
                              > > > > > just have a small outboard instead?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Planning must be done with your sailing location in mind. Really
                              > > > find
                              > > > > > the comment as seeing a trolling motor as a disposable tool
                              > > > interesting.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Nels
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > It must be strange to be in a predominant light air region with a
                              > > > > > sailboat. The typical summer wind on the Gulf coast is over 20mph
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > usually quite a challenge for small boats. In the winter we have a
                              > > > lot
                              > > > > > of light winds and calm waters, so everyone gets a variety of
                              > > > > > experiences. Personally I don't like light winds and drifting
                              > > > around
                              > > > > > very much, it is much harder to sail in for me.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Stan
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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