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Re: the way I see it

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  • Nels A
    John, You really have to get the book, because there is about 10 pages of discussion of choices and the whys and wherefors of how to do it. (Also it includes a
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 5, 2009
      John,

      You really have to get the book, because there is about 10 pages of
      discussion of choices and the whys and wherefors of how to do it. (Also
      it includes a dozen boat plans.)

      But just ordinary glass about 6 oz mostly I think. The resin he uses to
      glue down the glass to the wood is called "laminating", or lay-up resin.
      It is thinner than what most people use which is called finishing or
      surfacing resin, and also does not have the wax in it like finishing
      resin. You still have to use finishing resin for the last application
      once the weave is filled. And then sand off the wax once it fully
      hardens.
      The wax is required to really help the resin harden. Or you can add the
      special wax to the thinner stuff - is what he does.

      Nels


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Huft <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Nels,
      > What glass and resin does he recommend?
      > Thanks,
      > John Boy
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Nels A arvent@...
      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 2:54:56 PM
      > Subject: [Michalak] Re: the way I see it
      >
      >
      > I would suggest that anybody considering build options should read
      > Dynamite Payson's latest book.
      >
      > http://www.instantboats.com/books.htm
      >
      > He states "several good reasons for sheathing the boat in fiberglass."
      > and I paraphrase:
      >
      > Covers not only cosmetic errors but also potential leaks and weak
      > joints.
      >
      > Adds strength to the structure.
      >
      > Adds a lot of abrasion resitance.
      >
      > Ends problems of paint adhesion, cracking and peeling by covering the
      > wood.
      >
      > He ends by saying;
      >
      > "Yes it adds more weight, cost and labor, but on balance, I'd say use
      > it."
      >
      > He also says elsewhere that polyester resin works fine when glassing
      as
      > it is far cheaper, and plenty strong - if you use the correct resin.
      >
      > Nels
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
      > >
      > > This type has received very good reviews as well;
      > >
      > > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/tools/resp/index.htm
      > >
      > > Nels
      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, John Huft t1ro2003@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > A 3m 7500 half face respirator runs about $30 US. The cartridges
      > are
      > > around $4 to $10 US.
      > > > John Boy
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > > From: christiancrandall crandall@
      > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroup s.com
      > > > Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 11:47:48 AM
      > > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: the way I see it
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
      > > > > I agree with most of what you share with the exception of just
      > > because
      > > > > one cannot smell the fumes means they are not dangerous.
      > > >
      > > > Nels is right, that odor alone is not a complete indicator of
      danger
      > > from fumes. If you go to the material safety data sheet (MSDS) for
      > > epoxy, and here's one, but you can search for whatever you like:
      > > >
      > > > http://www.systemthree.com/msds/MSDS_SystemThree_Resin.pdf
      > > >
      > > > You'll find this:
      > > >
      > > > Material V.O.C.: None
      > > >
      > > > where VOC are volatile organic compounds, which is to say the
      > > evaporate-able (volatile) potentially dangerous chemicals. This
      > > translates into "no risk" from fumes.
      > > >
      > > > > Sanding dust from epoxy is still the more dangerous though.
      > > >
      > > > This is totally true, and "green" epoxy (hardened, but not fully
      > > cured) is the worst. Wait a LONG time to sand, and wear protection.
      > > Treat epoxy as if it were HIV--latex will keep you alive.
      > > >
      > > > > My choice would be to use MDO plywood, which does not check even
      > > though
      > > > > it is fir-based plywood. Needs no glass to prevent checking only
      > the
      > > > > recommended water-based primer and paint - little if any sanding
      > if
      > > > > accepting a "work boat" finish.
      > > >
      > > > I am currently building a boat with half-inch MDO, and it's
      > excellent
      > > stuff. I am enjoying working with it.
      > > >
      > > > Later in the MSDS, you'll find more:
      > > >
      > > > Respiratory Protection: Normally none is required when adequate
      > > > ventilation is provided. In the absence of proper environmental
      > > > control NIOSH approved respiratory is required. For emergencies, a
      > > > self-contained breathing apparatus or full-faced respirator is
      > > > recommended.
      > > >
      > > > In sum, epoxy "vapors" aren't a problem under normal conditions.
      > Keep
      > > it off your skin, do NOT breath the sanding dust. And keep it off
      you
      > > clothes, unless you don't much care about them.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Andres
      Some boat plans companies actually recommend this. Glen-L calles this encapsuelating the wood .. most of their plywood plans call for coating the inside and
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 6, 2009
        Some boat plans companies actually recommend this.

        Glen-L calles this "encapsuelating the wood" .. most of their plywood
        plans call for coating the inside and out completely with epoxy resen to
        seal the wood.

        with some small boats people opt to simply paint the outside without
        adding glass cloth, but glass does add protection.

        BEFORE the age of fiberglass, people built wooden boats that lasted for
        years. They did haul them out and scrape and paint them every year to
        protect against wood boring worms.

        I don't think your idea sounds that crazy at all. The 1st boat I ever
        built was in boy scouts and it was a grand banks dory. it was strip
        planked.. no plywood and caulked.. then set in water for the wood to
        swell and seal it. It was still going with the scouts long after I was
        out of college..

        Andrew




        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Huft <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
        >
        > And now watch me commit modern boat building heresy...
        >
        > I'm thinking of building a ten year boat, that is a boat that I only
        expect to last for 10 years. I leaning towards not using a bunch of
        fiberglass! I know this is going to sound lazy and crazy but I don't
        want to suck a bunch of epoxy fumes or itch and scratch for days after
        grinding away on a blobs of resin and glass. I'm not interested in
        resale a few years from now. I just want to build a sailboat that I can
        get out on the water in quickly and cheaply.
        >
        > Here's my train of thought. I've been wanting to build a sailboat
        since I was 15, that's about 30 years of dreaming. This is something I
        really want to do. I've been fascinated for years by the old time flat
        bottom boats. I know for a fact that I can buy a well found shoal draft
        sailboat for what it'll take to build a boat. I also know that after
        ten years, I probably couldn't give away a homemade wooded boat. I know
        a little about flat bottom skiffs, you know, Jethro Bodine type boats.
        I've shrimped off a couple plywood bay shrimpers and I've set a seine
        net off a mullet skiff a time or two. I figure the Musicbox will pound
        sometimes and bob around like a cork sometimes but I don't think it'll
        be so bad at 4-5 knots versus 20-25 knots in flat bottom skiffs that
        over the years have hammered my kidneys to the point that I thought I
        was gonna pee blood.
        >
        > Here's why I think I can get away with it. I once had an old 12 ft
        john boat that was painted exterior grade plywood that I bought for the
        Johnson Seahorse that was hanging on the transom. The boat was about 20
        years old when I got it. It had been used a lot in its life but had
        always been cleaned up and stored in a barn after every use. I kept it
        for several years before I had the dumb idea of upgrading to an aluminum
        boat. When I pulled the Seahorse off of it the hull was as sound as the
        day it was built. The one thing it had was outside chines so the end
        grain of the ply was covered. Wish I still had that boat. I figure
        with the outside chine on the Mbox I can do the same thing.
        >
        > The one concession to resin that I am going to make is I'm going to
        use penetrating epoxy to prime all of the wood. This stuff called Clear
        Penetrating Epoxy is about 70% solvents and the rest epoxy resin. It is
        designed to penetrate into dry wood and seal it up preventing rot and
        decay. I going to use exterior grade ply and let it soak up all it can
        handle. Of course I'll have me a good ol' 3M 7500 respirator on my
        face, this stuff have such magical liquids as naptha, toluene, and other
        death inducing liquids in it.
        >
        > I'm thinking of building the MBox because its flat bottomed with
        outside chines and letting the wood soak up some CPES, caulking the
        seams with some 5200, and sailing the schiza out it. I figure if it
        rots out in 3 or 4 years than I've have broken even. If it makes it ten
        years, than JACKPOT! When its all over, I'll send it to Valhalla by
        donating it's bones to the high school bonfire.
        > That's the way I see it,
        > John Boy
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • johnduck134
        John, My Puddle Duck Racer has no fiberglass, epoxy or polyester on it what so ever; sorry, I did fill some missing knot holes and voids in my leeboard with
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 8, 2009
          John,
          My Puddle Duck Racer has no fiberglass, epoxy or polyester on it what so ever; sorry, I did fill some missing knot holes and voids in my leeboard with leftovers from an old Bondo kit I was given, but nothing on the chines and plywood endgrains, with inside chines, except glue and exterior acrylic paint. I've had no problems with leaks or water absorbtion. I expect the boat to last more than 10 years!
          John Nystrom
          Peru, IN

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Huft <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
          >
          > And now watch me commit modern boat building heresy...
          >
          > I'm thinking of building a ten year boat, that is a boat that I only expect to last for 10 years. I leaning towards not using a bunch of fiberglass! I know this is going to sound lazy and crazy but I don't want to suck a bunch of epoxy fumes or itch and scratch for days after grinding away on a blobs of resin and glass. I'm not interested in resale a few years from now. I just want to build a sailboat that I can get out on the water in quickly and cheaply.
          >
          > Here's my train of thought. I've been wanting to build a sailboat since I was 15, that's about 30 years of dreaming. This is something I really want to do. I've been fascinated for years by the old time flat bottom boats. I know for a fact that I can buy a well found shoal draft sailboat for what it'll take to build a boat. I also know that after ten years, I probably couldn't give away a homemade wooded boat. I know a little about flat bottom skiffs, you know, Jethro Bodine type boats. I've shrimped off a couple plywood bay shrimpers and I've set a seine net off a mullet skiff a time or two. I figure the Musicbox will pound sometimes and bob around like a cork sometimes but I don't think it'll be so bad at 4-5 knots versus 20-25 knots in flat bottom skiffs that over the years have hammered my kidneys to the point that I thought I was gonna pee blood.
          >
          > Here's why I think I can get away with it. I once had an old 12 ft john boat that was painted exterior grade plywood that I bought for the Johnson Seahorse that was hanging on the transom. The boat was about 20 years old when I got it. It had been used a lot in its life but had always been cleaned up and stored in a barn after every use. I kept it for several years before I had the dumb idea of upgrading to an aluminum boat. When I pulled the Seahorse off of it the hull was as sound as the day it was built. The one thing it had was outside chines so the end grain of the ply was covered. Wish I still had that boat. I figure with the outside chine on the Mbox I can do the same thing.
          >
          > The one concession to resin that I am going to make is I'm going to use penetrating epoxy to prime all of the wood. This stuff called Clear Penetrating Epoxy is about 70% solvents and the rest epoxy resin. It is designed to penetrate into dry wood and seal it up preventing rot and decay. I going to use exterior grade ply and let it soak up all it can handle. Of course I'll have me a good ol' 3M 7500 respirator on my face, this stuff have such magical liquids as naptha, toluene, and other death inducing liquids in it.
          >
          > I'm thinking of building the MBox because its flat bottomed with outside chines and letting the wood soak up some CPES, caulking the seams with some 5200, and sailing the schiza out it. I figure if it rots out in 3 or 4 years than I've have broken even. If it makes it ten years, than JACKPOT! When its all over, I'll send it to Valhalla by donating it's bones to the high school bonfire.
          > That's the way I see it,
          > John Boy
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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