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Junk rig on a Trilars

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  • russell.hobbs
    Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans for an 80 sq ft
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 18, 2009
      Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
      Is this a suitable rig?
      Would dacron make a better sail?

      I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and reef.
      Any input would be appreciated.
      Russ Hobbs
    • Chris
      Is a junk rig easier to use than a balanced lug rig? I have used the balanced lug rig on my AF3, Philsboat and Pickup Squared. It is very easy to build and
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 18, 2009
        Is a junk rig easier to use than a balanced lug rig? I have used the balanced lug rig on my AF3, Philsboat and Pickup Squared. It is very easy to build and use. The junk rig always seemed more complicated and more difficult to use. Is this true? Am I missing something?

        Chris Feller

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
        >
        > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
        > Is this a suitable rig?
        > Would dacron make a better sail?
        >
        > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and reef.
        > Any input would be appreciated.
        > Russ Hobbs
        >
      • russell.hobbs
        I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some feedback from Mr Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with the junk.
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 19, 2009
          I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some feedback from Mr Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with the junk.

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisbfeller@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is a junk rig easier to use than a balanced lug rig? I have used the balanced lug rig on my AF3, Philsboat and Pickup Squared. It is very easy to build and use. The junk rig always seemed more complicated and more difficult to use. Is this true? Am I missing something?
          >
          > Chris Feller
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
          > > Is this a suitable rig?
          > > Would dacron make a better sail?
          > >
          > > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and reef.
          > > Any input would be appreciated.
          > > Russ Hobbs
          > >
          >
        • John Bell
          My two cents: All the junk rigs I ve seen in person are a bit of hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to run and keep from getting
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 19, 2009
            My two cents: All the junk rigs I've seen in person are a bit of
            hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to run
            and keep from getting tangled. For a boat where the rig stays up all
            the the time, it's probably pretty easy to manage. For a boat where
            you'll need to set and strike the rig every time you sail, I'd
            strongly recommend something simpler.

            My experience with balanced lugs and Sunfish-style lateen rigs has me
            convinced they are among the simplest rigs around. All you have to run
            is one halyard, a downhaul, and a sheet. Aside from the need to have a
            fairly long mast, a leg o'mutton lashed to mast would be a very simple
            rig to live with as well. You can buy the Bolger-Payson 59 sq ft Lo'M
            sail quite inexpensively.

            All the sheetlets on junk rig would drive me to distraction. Also, on
            such a small sail as would be on trilars, I don't see where having a
            sheet on every batten is necessary. I think a small balanced lug of
            ~50-60 square feet is the way to go.


            On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
            > I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some feedback from Mr
            > Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with the junk.
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisbfeller@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Is a junk rig easier to use than a balanced lug rig? I have used the
            >> balanced lug rig on my AF3, Philsboat and Pickup Squared. It is very easy
            >> to build and use. The junk rig always seemed more complicated and more
            >> difficult to use. Is this true? Am I missing something?
            >>
            >> Chris Feller
            >>
            >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@> wrote:
            >> >
            >> > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a
            >> > junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans
            >> > for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
            >> > Is this a suitable rig?
            >> > Would dacron make a better sail?
            >> >
            >> > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've
            >> > never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and
            >> > reef.
            >> > Any input would be appreciated.
            >> > Russ Hobbs
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
            >
          • russell.hobbs
            Thanks for the info. Trilars has a sprit rig as per plans but the balanced lug also looks good. Now about making that tapered solid wooden mast...
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 19, 2009
              Thanks for the info. Trilars has a sprit rig as per plans but the balanced lug also looks good.
              Now about making that tapered solid wooden mast...

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell <yonderman@...> wrote:
              >
              > My two cents: All the junk rigs I've seen in person are a bit of
              > hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to run
              > and keep from getting tangled. For a boat where the rig stays up all
              > the the time, it's probably pretty easy to manage. For a boat where
              > you'll need to set and strike the rig every time you sail, I'd
              > strongly recommend something simpler.
              >
              > My experience with balanced lugs and Sunfish-style lateen rigs has me
              > convinced they are among the simplest rigs around. All you have to run
              > is one halyard, a downhaul, and a sheet. Aside from the need to have a
              > fairly long mast, a leg o'mutton lashed to mast would be a very simple
              > rig to live with as well. You can buy the Bolger-Payson 59 sq ft Lo'M
              > sail quite inexpensively.
              >
              > All the sheetlets on junk rig would drive me to distraction. Also, on
              > such a small sail as would be on trilars, I don't see where having a
              > sheet on every batten is necessary. I think a small balanced lug of
              > ~50-60 square feet is the way to go.
              >
              >
              > On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
              > > I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some feedback from Mr
              > > Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with the junk.
              > >
              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisbfeller@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> Is a junk rig easier to use than a balanced lug rig? I have used the
              > >> balanced lug rig on my AF3, Philsboat and Pickup Squared. It is very easy
              > >> to build and use. The junk rig always seemed more complicated and more
              > >> difficult to use. Is this true? Am I missing something?
              > >>
              > >> Chris Feller
              > >>
              > >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a
              > >> > junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans
              > >> > for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
              > >> > Is this a suitable rig?
              > >> > Would dacron make a better sail?
              > >> >
              > >> > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've
              > >> > never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and
              > >> > reef.
              > >> > Any input would be appreciated.
              > >> > Russ Hobbs
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • John Bell
              Come to think of it, I have an approximately 50 sq ft lateen rig complete with aluminum spars and mast stashed in my garage. It came off of an old Snark-ish
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 19, 2009
                Come to think of it, I have an approximately 50 sq ft lateen rig
                complete with aluminum spars and mast stashed in my garage. It came
                off of an old Snark-ish styrofoam boat that hull has long since
                perished. I keep it sitting around with the idea that I'm going to
                build a hull for it one of these days. A PDR would work, I think.

                If you can find one of those, it would be about perfect I think.

                On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
                > Thanks for the info. Trilars has a sprit rig as per plans but the balanced
                > lug also looks good.
                > Now about making that tapered solid wooden mast...
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell <yonderman@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> My two cents: All the junk rigs I've seen in person are a bit of
                >> hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to run
                >> and keep from getting tangled. For a boat where the rig stays up all
                >> the the time, it's probably pretty easy to manage. For a boat where
                >> you'll need to set and strike the rig every time you sail, I'd
                >> strongly recommend something simpler.
                >>
                >> My experience with balanced lugs and Sunfish-style lateen rigs has me
                >> convinced they are among the simplest rigs around. All you have to run
                >> is one halyard, a downhaul, and a sheet. Aside from the need to have a
                >> fairly long mast, a leg o'mutton lashed to mast would be a very simple
                >> rig to live with as well. You can buy the Bolger-Payson 59 sq ft Lo'M
                >> sail quite inexpensively.
                >>
                >> All the sheetlets on junk rig would drive me to distraction. Also, on
                >> such a small sail as would be on trilars, I don't see where having a
                >> sheet on every batten is necessary. I think a small balanced lug of
                >> ~50-60 square feet is the way to go.
                >>
                >>
                >> On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
                >> > I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some feedback
                >> > from Mr
                >> > Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with the junk.
                >> >
                >> > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisbfeller@> wrote:
                >> >>
                >> >> Is a junk rig easier to use than a balanced lug rig? I have used the
                >> >> balanced lug rig on my AF3, Philsboat and Pickup Squared. It is very
                >> >> easy
                >> >> to build and use. The junk rig always seemed more complicated and more
                >> >> difficult to use. Is this true? Am I missing something?
                >> >>
                >> >> Chris Feller
                >> >>
                >> >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@>
                >> >> wrote:
                >> >> >
                >> >> > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a
                >> >> > junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with
                >> >> > plans
                >> >> > for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                >> >> > Is this a suitable rig?
                >> >> > Would dacron make a better sail?
                >> >> >
                >> >> > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use.
                >> >> > I've
                >> >> > never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and
                >> >> > reef.
                >> >> > Any input would be appreciated.
                >> >> > Russ Hobbs
                >> >> >
                >> >>
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >
                >
                >
              • Nels A
                I added a file some time back: This suggested an alternative rig
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 19, 2009
                  I added a file some time back:

                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/files/Balanced%20Lug%20Notes%20a\
                  nd%20Ideas/>

                  This suggested an alternative rig half-way between a Balance lug and a
                  Junk rig.

                  Essentailly you add a batten at each reef point on a balance lug and a
                  set of lazy jacks to it so reefs exactly like a junk rig. No reef points
                  to have to be tied in. You reef a panel and the first batten falls onto
                  the boom held in place by the jack lines. Tie in at your leisure if you
                  wish.

                  Sheetlets are added to a junk rig to prevent sail twist when going off
                  the wind. In a sail under 100 sq. ft. these have been found to be
                  unnessesary, but are still an option if you want to try it. A simple "Y"
                  configuration to the two lowest battens with one sheetlet is all that is
                  needed. If you have three reef points just leave the top one "as is"
                  with no sheeting as it will twist and spill wind if hit by a gust.

                  This rig seems particularly attractive if you use poly tarp - very cheap
                  and very effective. Darts can located at each batten to give the sail
                  some shape. The only "trick" that I am aware of is to find a good batten
                  material. Two light weight thin battens riveted to each other or secured
                  with zip ties seem an option accepted by the JR experts. John Tompkins
                  found an alternative to wood in PVC electrical conduit. I wish I could
                  locate some of that.

                  http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junk/index.htm

                  I believe John later shared that the above sail area worked fine without
                  any sheetlets.

                  You will also notice in this article that his rig has a parrel at each
                  batten which keeps the batten from flying off too far from the mast when
                  going downwind. Another option is what is called the "Hongkong" parrel
                  system which has the parrels in one continuous line running back to the
                  helm. They are slakened off when going downwind to allow the sail to be
                  secured further forward of the mast with the downhaul. Then tightened up
                  to be more like a standing lug when going to weather. A regular balance
                  lug does not have that ability.

                  Junk rig nuts tend to fool around with this type of stuff more than most
                  people:-) They are forever trying to improve upwind performance which is
                  not a strong suit of this type of rig.

                  My thinking is that any design that calls for a balance lug rig can be
                  tweaked if you want.

                  Nels






                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell <yonderman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Come to think of it, I have an approximately 50 sq ft lateen rig
                  > complete with aluminum spars and mast stashed in my garage. It came
                  > off of an old Snark-ish styrofoam boat that hull has long since
                  > perished. I keep it sitting around with the idea that I'm going to
                  > build a hull for it one of these days. A PDR would work, I think.
                  >
                  > If you can find one of those, it would be about perfect I think.
                  >
                  > On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs russell.hobbs@... wrote:
                  > > Thanks for the info. Trilars has a sprit rig as per plans but the
                  balanced
                  > > lug also looks good.
                  > > Now about making that tapered solid wooden mast...
                  > >
                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell yonderman@ wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> My two cents: All the junk rigs I've seen in person are a bit of
                  > >> hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to run
                  > >> and keep from getting tangled. For a boat where the rig stays up
                  all
                  > >> the the time, it's probably pretty easy to manage. For a boat where
                  > >> you'll need to set and strike the rig every time you sail, I'd
                  > >> strongly recommend something simpler.
                  > >>
                  > >> My experience with balanced lugs and Sunfish-style lateen rigs has
                  me
                  > >> convinced they are among the simplest rigs around. All you have to
                  run
                  > >> is one halyard, a downhaul, and a sheet. Aside from the need to
                  have a
                  > >> fairly long mast, a leg o'mutton lashed to mast would be a very
                  simple
                  > >> rig to live with as well. You can buy the Bolger-Payson 59 sq ft
                  Lo'M
                  > >> sail quite inexpensively.
                  > >>
                  > >> All the sheetlets on junk rig would drive me to distraction. Also,
                  on
                  > >> such a small sail as would be on trilars, I don't see where having
                  a
                  > >> sheet on every batten is necessary. I think a small balanced lug of
                  > >> ~50-60 square feet is the way to go.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                  > >> > I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some
                  feedback
                  > >> > from Mr
                  > >> > Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with
                  the junk.
                • Tom
                  Good day all, I m just headed out with my Trilars for a short afternoon daysail,(I love NC this time of year) my two cents having built and sailed is that
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 20, 2009
                    Good day all,

                    I'm just headed out with my Trilars for a short afternoon daysail,(I love NC this time of year) my two cents having built and sailed is that Jim's desinged sail and rig is extremely simple and with a set of reef points you'll be happy with what you've got. Once you've sailed a few times you'll have a much better feel fot the boat and perhaps what you'll want to experiment with. I have a sunfish sail I picked up cheap on ebay that I may give a go, I also have a 12 x 25 sheet of white poly tarp to play with.

                    A couple of side notes, I highly reccomend the pressure release cam cleat Chuck sells at Duckworks for the leeboard, it loves to float up when there is little of no lateral resistance needed.

                    I just loaded up on my new Harbor Freight utility trailer, the 8' x 4' one, a virtual rolling roof rack, so much easier.

                    Tom

                    www.buildboats.com
                  • Bill Prater
                    My 2 cents: build it as the designer laid it out.  Then tweak if needed.   There are a million people drawing boats, but only a few successful designers. 
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 20, 2009
                      My 2 cents: build it as the designer laid it out.  Then tweak if needed.
                       
                      There are a million people drawing boats, but only a few successful designers.  Good place to start.
                       
                      BP

                      --- On Sun, 10/18/09, russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:


                      From: russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...>
                      Subject: [Michalak] Junk rig on a Trilars
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 1:51 PM


                       



                      Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                      Is this a suitable rig?
                      Would dacron make a better sail?

                      I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and reef.
                      Any input would be appreciated.
                      Russ Hobbs



















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • russell.hobbs
                      Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I m planning on pedal
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 20, 2009
                        Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I'm planning on pedal steering. Hope your sail time was great, barring a capsize it usually is the best part of the day.

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <buildboats@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Good day all,
                        >
                        > I'm just headed out with my Trilars for a short afternoon daysail,(I love NC this time of year) my two cents having built and sailed is that Jim's desinged sail and rig is extremely simple and with a set of reef points you'll be happy with what you've got. Once you've sailed a few times you'll have a much better feel fot the boat and perhaps what you'll want to experiment with. I have a sunfish sail I picked up cheap on ebay that I may give a go, I also have a 12 x 25 sheet of white poly tarp to play with.
                        >
                        > A couple of side notes, I highly reccomend the pressure release cam cleat Chuck sells at Duckworks for the leeboard, it loves to float up when there is little of no lateral resistance needed.
                        >
                        > I just loaded up on my new Harbor Freight utility trailer, the 8' x 4' one, a virtual rolling roof rack, so much easier.
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >
                        > www.buildboats.com
                        >
                      • Tom
                        The mast is solid 3 layers of 3/4 1x3 pine, glued together and I hand planed. I followed the taper measurements in the plan and used my hole saws to cut
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 21, 2009
                          The mast is solid 3 layers of 3/4" 1x3 pine, glued together and I hand planed. I followed the taper measurements in the plan and used my hole saws to cut sizing holes in scrap plywood for measuring along the way. It took about 8 hours of work, to get a mostly round mast. An alternative would be to build it square, still taper and round the corners.

                          I have the steering stick as per plans, I think the pedal steering would be fun, free up a hand. Though at least one other Trilars builder who did use pedals later added the stick as well.
                          The one draw back to foot pedals is not being able to stretch the legs out, so for any extended days on the water it'd be nice to at least have the option.

                          It was a nice day 73 degrees although light winds but enough to get around. I'm sure someone could find a way to capsize but the Trilars is extremely stable, I won't ever, say never but if you did you likely wouldn't be able to right it.


                          Happy building

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I'm planning on pedal steering. Hope your sail time was great, barring a capsize it usually is the best part of the day.
                          >
                        • Nels A
                          Great info guys and thanks for sharing! I agree fully with making the sailing rig as per plans and then maybe tweaking it later based on experience with it as
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 21, 2009
                            Great info guys and thanks for sharing!

                            I agree fully with making the sailing rig as per plans and then maybe
                            tweaking it later based on experience with it as drawn. Also the
                            steering stick with perhaps the pedals added. Am also thinking a
                            continous steering line run inside under the decking instead, a la
                            Paradox. Some owners have a friction device "handle" attached on Paradox
                            steering lines so the rudder will stay at one location on a long tack.
                            At least one owner actually connected an electronic self-steering tiller
                            tender on theirs! Maybe a bit much for a Trilars!

                            Then Gary comes up with an extended version of Trilars. When will it end
                            I wonder??

                            I have a friend in Norway very interested in the design, starting with
                            just the basic Larsboat hull for paddling near shore.

                            I had a Foldbot once and this hull is very similar and better in many
                            ways since I often car-topped mine anyway to save having to unload the
                            container bags and erect it on the beach inflate the flotation bags,
                            installing the pedals and spray cover etc. Not as easy to do as the
                            brochures would lead one to believe. Especially after awhile, when the
                            outer skin begins to shrink from sun exposure. Of course it was designed
                            to be transported on a train or airplane but airplanes these days charge
                            you extra baggage fees anyway.

                            I also had a friend who I travelled with in Europe who had a Klepper
                            Aerius complete with sailing rig. Took all morning to set-up and it
                            never sailed all that well. One time on a beautiful lake in Switzerland
                            we each rented a Sunfish for the day:-)

                            Nels




                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <buildboats@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The mast is solid 3 layers of 3/4" 1x3 pine, glued together and I hand
                            planed. I followed the taper measurements in the plan and used my hole
                            saws to cut sizing holes in scrap plywood for measuring along the way.
                            It took about 8 hours of work, to get a mostly round mast. An
                            alternative would be to build it square, still taper and round the
                            corners.
                            >
                            > I have the steering stick as per plans, I think the pedal steering
                            would be fun, free up a hand. Though at least one other Trilars builder
                            who did use pedals later added the stick as well.
                            > The one draw back to foot pedals is not being able to stretch the legs
                            out, so for any extended days on the water it'd be nice to at least have
                            the option.
                            >
                            > It was a nice day 73 degrees although light winds but enough to get
                            around. I'm sure someone could find a way to capsize but the Trilars is
                            extremely stable, I won't ever, say never but if you did you likely
                            wouldn't be able to right it.
                            >
                            >
                            > Happy building
                            >
                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with
                            the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I'm
                            planning on pedal steering. Hope your sail time was great, barring a
                            capsize it usually is the best part of the day.
                            > >
                            >
                          • russell.hobbs
                            Tom I think the tiller would be the perfect adjunct to the pedal steering. I ve gotten so many ideas from your site. I want you to know that I feel better
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 21, 2009
                              Tom I think the tiller would be the perfect adjunct to the pedal steering. I've gotten so many ideas from your site. I want you to know that I feel better knowing I can rely on resources such as your site as I build my own version of Trilars. I'm aware of a sort of geometric approach to making a tapered solid mast but I"m thinking of a jig that would allow me to get 8 or 16 sides from my table saw and then plane and sand the rest. Of course I would appreciate any input that would keep me from reinventing the wheel.
                              Thanks again to all and keep the tips and ideas coming.

                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <buildboats@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The mast is solid 3 layers of 3/4" 1x3 pine, glued together and I hand planed. I followed the taper measurements in the plan and used my hole saws to cut sizing holes in scrap plywood for measuring along the way. It took about 8 hours of work, to get a mostly round mast. An alternative would be to build it square, still taper and round the corners.
                              >
                              > I have the steering stick as per plans, I think the pedal steering would be fun, free up a hand. Though at least one other Trilars builder who did use pedals later added the stick as well.
                              > The one draw back to foot pedals is not being able to stretch the legs out, so for any extended days on the water it'd be nice to at least have the option.
                              >
                              > It was a nice day 73 degrees although light winds but enough to get around. I'm sure someone could find a way to capsize but the Trilars is extremely stable, I won't ever, say never but if you did you likely wouldn't be able to right it.
                              >
                              >
                              > Happy building
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I'm planning on pedal steering. Hope your sail time was great, barring a capsize it usually is the best part of the day.
                              > >
                              >
                            • Douglas Pollard
                              ... TOM Colvin who designed some boats with junk rigs told me one time that a junk is a 4 knot boat whether the wind blows 2knots or 30. That is like as not
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 22, 2009
                                Bill Prater wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > My 2 cents: build it as the designer laid it out. Then tweak if needed.
                                >
                                > There are a million people drawing boats, but only a few successful
                                > designers. Good place to start.
                                >
                                > BP
                                >
                                > --- On Sun, 10/18/09, russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...
                                > <mailto:russell.hobbs%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                >
                                > From: russell.hobbs <russell.hobbs@...
                                > <mailto:russell.hobbs%40yahoo.com>>
                                > Subject: [Michalak] Junk rig on a Trilars
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 1:51 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a
                                > junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with
                                > plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                                > Is this a suitable rig?
                                > Would dacron make a better sail?
                                >
                                > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use.
                                > I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use
                                > and reef.
                                > Any input would be appreciated.
                                > Russ Hobbs
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                TOM Colvin who designed some boats with junk rigs told me one time that
                                a junk is a 4 knot boat whether the wind blows 2knots or 30. That is
                                like as not really not entirely true but I think he was telling me that
                                the rig is a good one for a cruising boat where a lot of speed and that
                                being likely to windward was not a big consideration the rig would be
                                suitable. The junk rig has some advantages on a big boat where reefing
                                is a problem and where big is very expensive as compared to a Bermuda
                                rig. On a small boat I just don't see the advantages. A sprite sail
                                with a sprite boom is simple fast and has the same advantages a junk has
                                as far as trimming sails are concerned. It may be a little harder to
                                reef but in a puff you can instantly drop the peak and scandalize the
                                rig and you are home free. IF the wind keeps up and its to be all day
                                under sail, you can reef at your leisure. A lot harder than a junk rig
                                here but with small sails it doesn't matter. On a light ballasted boat
                                the additional weight of the junk rig aloft ought to be considered even
                                on a catamaran. I don't know what rig is designed on the boat but when
                                you change it you will be lucky to get away with having to move the rig
                                several times to get it right. Experienced designer struggle with
                                that. I would go with poly tarp for the first try at changing a rig
                                that way you won't have any money in it in the event that you want to go
                                back to the original. The good news in all this is that you will learn
                                some things with all this rig changing and it will be fun.

                                Doug
                              • Tom
                                I have seen the octogon approach documented on the web, I think it was the duckworksmagazine.com. I know working with a 18 blank is a challenge, so a small
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 22, 2009
                                  I have seen the octogon approach documented on the web, I think it was the duckworksmagazine.com. I know working with a 18' blank is a challenge, so a small scale test could prove to be prudent in working out the jig or the settings for your table saw. I also saw an episode of New Yankee Workshop where Norm built a fir flag pole with such a taper jig and circular saw, although the jig seemed like a lot of work.

                                  I tried the octogon approach for my steering stick and missed a side or over-rotated and have one more oval then round. Not a problem for a stick, not good for a mast :)




                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Tom I think the tiller would be the perfect adjunct to the pedal steering. I've gotten so many ideas from your site. I want you to know that I feel better knowing I can rely on resources such as your site as I build my own version of Trilars. I'm aware of a sort of geometric approach to making a tapered solid mast but I"m thinking of a jig that would allow me to get 8 or 16 sides from my table saw and then plane and sand the rest. Of course I would appreciate any input that would keep me from reinventing the wheel.
                                  > Thanks again to all and keep the tips and ideas coming.
                                  >
                                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <buildboats@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > The mast is solid 3 layers of 3/4" 1x3 pine, glued together and I hand planed. I followed the taper measurements in the plan and used my hole saws to cut sizing holes in scrap plywood for measuring along the way. It took about 8 hours of work, to get a mostly round mast. An alternative would be to build it square, still taper and round the corners.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have the steering stick as per plans, I think the pedal steering would be fun, free up a hand. Though at least one other Trilars builder who did use pedals later added the stick as well.
                                  > > The one draw back to foot pedals is not being able to stretch the legs out, so for any extended days on the water it'd be nice to at least have the option.
                                  > >
                                  > > It was a nice day 73 degrees although light winds but enough to get around. I'm sure someone could find a way to capsize but the Trilars is extremely stable, I won't ever, say never but if you did you likely wouldn't be able to right it.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Happy building
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I'm planning on pedal steering. Hope your sail time was great, barring a capsize it usually is the best part of the day.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Bill Prater
                                  I think I remember Ruell Parker s Sharpie Book talking about buildilng masts, quick way to get it done.  I ll check when I m where my books are.   Bill P ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 23, 2009
                                    I think I remember Ruell Parker's Sharpie Book talking about buildilng masts, quick way to get it done.  I'll check when I'm where my books are.
                                     
                                    Bill P

                                    --- On Thu, 10/22/09, Tom <buildboats@...> wrote:


                                    From: Tom <buildboats@...>
                                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Junk rig on a Trilars
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, October 22, 2009, 5:30 PM


                                     



                                    I have seen the octogon approach documented on the web, I think it was the duckworksmagazine. com. I know working with a 18' blank is a challenge, so a small scale test could prove to be prudent in working out the jig or the settings for your table saw. I also saw an episode of New Yankee Workshop where Norm built a fir flag pole with such a taper jig and circular saw, although the jig seemed like a lot of work.

                                    I tried the octogon approach for my steering stick and missed a side or over-rotated and have one more oval then round. Not a problem for a stick, not good for a mast :)

                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Tom I think the tiller would be the perfect adjunct to the pedal steering. I've gotten so many ideas from your site. I want you to know that I feel better knowing I can rely on resources such as your site as I build my own version of Trilars. I'm aware of a sort of geometric approach to making a tapered solid mast but I"m thinking of a jig that would allow me to get 8 or 16 sides from my table saw and then plane and sand the rest. Of course I would appreciate any input that would keep me from reinventing the wheel.
                                    > Thanks again to all and keep the tips and ideas coming.
                                    >
                                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "Tom" <buildboats@ > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The mast is solid 3 layers of 3/4" 1x3 pine, glued together and I hand planed. I followed the taper measurements in the plan and used my hole saws to cut sizing holes in scrap plywood for measuring along the way. It took about 8 hours of work, to get a mostly round mast. An alternative would be to build it square, still taper and round the corners.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have the steering stick as per plans, I think the pedal steering would be fun, free up a hand. Though at least one other Trilars builder who did use pedals later added the stick as well.
                                    > > The one draw back to foot pedals is not being able to stretch the legs out, so for any extended days on the water it'd be nice to at least have the option.
                                    > >
                                    > > It was a nice day 73 degrees although light winds but enough to get around. I'm sure someone could find a way to capsize but the Trilars is extremely stable, I won't ever, say never but if you did you likely wouldn't be able to right it.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Happy building
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroup s.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@ > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thanks for the input Tom. I was wondering, did you build yours with the solid mast or a hollow mast? Very good point about the leeboard. I'm planning on pedal steering. Hope your sail time was great, barring a capsize it usually is the best part of the day.
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >



















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • creditscorenz
                                    Hi Nels, I ve pretty much done what you describe below with one significant difference - I built the sail using Jim s two dart technique
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 27, 2009
                                      Hi Nels,

                                      I've pretty much done what you describe below with one significant difference - I built the sail
                                      using Jim's two dart technique http://www.jimsboats.com/1nov08.htm . This introduces the correct camber into
                                      the sail without a lot of hassle. This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2Jo9QAI3Y shows the darts against the sun to good effect.

                                      The purpose of the battens is to reduce the tensions on the polytarp sail when reefed, since the reefing
                                      cringles are replaced with a batten for distributed load. Consequently the battens should be as bendy as
                                      possible in the horizontal plane and preferably rigid in the vertical plane. I bought
                                      1/2 inch * 1 1/2 inch pinus radiata battens from my local hardware merchant. With light battens like this
                                      on a small sail you definitely need to tie the battens to the boom when reefing. A downhaul on the boom is also
                                      mandatory to maintain a tight luff.

                                      In a standard balanced lug, Jim recommends that the halyard attachment point should be 40% back from the front
                                      of the yard. On that rig you have to generate massive tension on the downhaul to maintain sail shape and prevent the
                                      sail billowing on the "good" tack and deforming around the mast on the "bad" tack. I've found that providing you
                                      attach parrels to the battens and make sure the battens do not lead the mast by more than 20% (of course this change
                                      from 40% to 20% is only possible because I have changed my mast position to maintain the correct amount of weather
                                      helm) the billowing and deformation problem never happens even under moderate downhaul tension all of which you want
                                      on a rig that has no sewn seams anywhere. Mine is held together by double sided carpet tape and zip ties and is into
                                      its second season with no problems yet. It took half a day to make.

                                      If you look at the last photo under http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3 and the album
                                      Philsboat the Lovely Duckling there is a photo of my 114 sq ft interpretation of Jim's 70 sq ft
                                      sailplan. After examining his calculations,I noticed that the key thing when making his sail is to have the lower
                                      dart's taper twice the size of the upper dart's taper. If you make sure that each side of your sail scales
                                      to Jim's shape and your dart tapers are reasonable, then the rest of the measurements fall into place without
                                      having to struggle with the maths.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Rob.

                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I added a file some time back:
                                      >
                                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/files/Balanced%20Lug%20Notes%20a\
                                      > nd%20Ideas/>
                                      >
                                      > This suggested an alternative rig half-way between a Balance lug and a
                                      > Junk rig.
                                      >
                                      > Essentailly you add a batten at each reef point on a balance lug and a
                                      > set of lazy jacks to it so reefs exactly like a junk rig. No reef points
                                      > to have to be tied in. You reef a panel and the first batten falls onto
                                      > the boom held in place by the jack lines. Tie in at your leisure if you
                                      > wish.
                                      >
                                      > Sheetlets are added to a junk rig to prevent sail twist when going off
                                      > the wind. In a sail under 100 sq. ft. these have been found to be
                                      > unnessesary, but are still an option if you want to try it. A simple "Y"
                                      > configuration to the two lowest battens with one sheetlet is all that is
                                      > needed. If you have three reef points just leave the top one "as is"
                                      > with no sheeting as it will twist and spill wind if hit by a gust.
                                      >
                                      > This rig seems particularly attractive if you use poly tarp - very cheap
                                      > and very effective. Darts can located at each batten to give the sail
                                      > some shape. The only "trick" that I am aware of is to find a good batten
                                      > material. Two light weight thin battens riveted to each other or secured
                                      > with zip ties seem an option accepted by the JR experts. John Tompkins
                                      > found an alternative to wood in PVC electrical conduit. I wish I could
                                      > locate some of that.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junk/index.htm
                                      >
                                      > I believe John later shared that the above sail area worked fine without
                                      > any sheetlets.
                                      >
                                      > You will also notice in this article that his rig has a parrel at each
                                      > batten which keeps the batten from flying off too far from the mast when
                                      > going downwind. Another option is what is called the "Hongkong" parrel
                                      > system which has the parrels in one continuous line running back to the
                                      > helm. They are slakened off when going downwind to allow the sail to be
                                      > secured further forward of the mast with the downhaul. Then tightened up
                                      > to be more like a standing lug when going to weather. A regular balance
                                      > lug does not have that ability.
                                      >
                                      > Junk rig nuts tend to fool around with this type of stuff more than most
                                      > people:-) They are forever trying to improve upwind performance which is
                                      > not a strong suit of this type of rig.
                                      >
                                      > My thinking is that any design that calls for a balance lug rig can be
                                      > tweaked if you want.
                                      >
                                      > Nels
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell <yonderman@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Come to think of it, I have an approximately 50 sq ft lateen rig
                                      > > complete with aluminum spars and mast stashed in my garage. It came
                                      > > off of an old Snark-ish styrofoam boat that hull has long since
                                      > > perished. I keep it sitting around with the idea that I'm going to
                                      > > build a hull for it one of these days. A PDR would work, I think.
                                      > >
                                      > > If you can find one of those, it would be about perfect I think.
                                      > >
                                      > > On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                                      > > > Thanks for the info. Trilars has a sprit rig as per plans but the
                                      > balanced
                                      > > > lug also looks good.
                                      > > > Now about making that tapered solid wooden mast...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell yonderman@ wrote:
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >> My two cents: All the junk rigs I've seen in person are a bit of
                                      > > >> hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to run
                                      > > >> and keep from getting tangled. For a boat where the rig stays up
                                      > all
                                      > > >> the the time, it's probably pretty easy to manage. For a boat where
                                      > > >> you'll need to set and strike the rig every time you sail, I'd
                                      > > >> strongly recommend something simpler.
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >> My experience with balanced lugs and Sunfish-style lateen rigs has
                                      > me
                                      > > >> convinced they are among the simplest rigs around. All you have to
                                      > run
                                      > > >> is one halyard, a downhaul, and a sheet. Aside from the need to
                                      > have a
                                      > > >> fairly long mast, a leg o'mutton lashed to mast would be a very
                                      > simple
                                      > > >> rig to live with as well. You can buy the Bolger-Payson 59 sq ft
                                      > Lo'M
                                      > > >> sail quite inexpensively.
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >> All the sheetlets on junk rig would drive me to distraction. Also,
                                      > on
                                      > > >> such a small sail as would be on trilars, I don't see where having
                                      > a
                                      > > >> sheet on every batten is necessary. I think a small balanced lug of
                                      > > >> ~50-60 square feet is the way to go.
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >> On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                                      > > >> > I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some
                                      > feedback
                                      > > >> > from Mr
                                      > > >> > Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible with
                                      > the junk.
                                      >
                                    • Nels A
                                      Rob, I had not noticed your updated sail plan. It looks really good and matches what I had been thinking, except I had not thought about relocating the yard
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 27, 2009
                                        Rob,

                                        I had not noticed your updated sail plan. It looks really good and
                                        matches what I had been thinking, except I had not thought about
                                        relocating the yard parrel forward to reduce the tension required on
                                        the downhaul thereby lessening stress on the luff. Seems Karl James did
                                        the same on his Jewelbox. This would be important with a polytarp sail.
                                        Of course it also shows the advantage of easily relocating the mast on
                                        this type of slot-top cabin.

                                        <http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2000/0615/index.htm#BALANC\
                                        ED%20LUG%20JIFFY%20REEF>

                                        Another dart option is to do what Mike Mulcahy did with his junk rig
                                        sail plan. That is to place a narrow dart at both ends under each
                                        batten.

                                        <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm>

                                        In JR "terms" this is called "quilting" in that each sail panel has
                                        built-in camber. The advantage is that stiffer battens can be used
                                        resulting in less horizontal bending of the battens when the sail
                                        presses against the mast on the "bad tack".

                                        I ran this past the experts at the JR group and got a thumbs up. The
                                        lower panels have wider darts installed to help with upwind performance
                                        in light airs, while the upper panels have narrower darts to be more
                                        flat when the sail is reefed in high winds.

                                        As you can see from Mike's great drawings, sail area can be increased by
                                        simply adding an addition panel on the bottom. And each reef does not
                                        change the CE of the sail all that much if at all.

                                        On a rig this light Mike uses simple aluminum snap-hooks in place of
                                        pulleys on the sheetlets except for one fiddle block.

                                        <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/blocks/rl378/index.htm>

                                        For a smaller sail, shower rings have be used successfully! There is
                                        very little tension on the sheetlets so small slippery lines work, even
                                        if they have some stretch - as that just eases the forces on the rig
                                        during gusts - as does the flex of the battens. If one wants to add more
                                        strength and stiffness along the luff, one can "face" it with flat nylon
                                        webbing. Then the mast downhaul line, which should be non-stretch can be
                                        lead back to the helm and tensioned if needed without damage to the
                                        sail.

                                        Nels


                                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "creditscorenz" <creditscorenz@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Nels,
                                        >
                                        > I've pretty much done what you describe below with one significant
                                        difference - I built the sail
                                        > using Jim's two dart technique http://www.jimsboats.com/1nov08.htm .
                                        This introduces the correct camber into
                                        > the sail without a lot of hassle. This video
                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2Jo9QAI3Y shows the darts against the
                                        sun to good effect.
                                        >
                                        > The purpose of the battens is to reduce the tensions on the polytarp
                                        sail when reefed, since the reefing
                                        > cringles are replaced with a batten for distributed load. Consequently
                                        the battens should be as bendy as
                                        > possible in the horizontal plane and preferably rigid in the vertical
                                        plane. I bought
                                        > 1/2 inch * 1 1/2 inch pinus radiata battens from my local hardware
                                        merchant. With light battens like this
                                        > on a small sail you definitely need to tie the battens to the boom
                                        when reefing. A downhaul on the boom is also
                                        > mandatory to maintain a tight luff.
                                        >
                                        > In a standard balanced lug, Jim recommends that the halyard attachment
                                        point should be 40% back from the front
                                        > of the yard. On that rig you have to generate massive tension on the
                                        downhaul to maintain sail shape and prevent the
                                        > sail billowing on the "good" tack and deforming around the mast on the
                                        "bad" tack. I've found that providing you
                                        > attach parrels to the battens and make sure the battens do not lead
                                        the mast by more than 20% (of course this change
                                        > from 40% to 20% is only possible because I have changed my mast
                                        position to maintain the correct amount of weather
                                        > helm) the billowing and deformation problem never happens even under
                                        moderate downhaul tension all of which you want
                                        > on a rig that has no sewn seams anywhere. Mine is held together by
                                        double sided carpet tape and zip ties and is into
                                        > its second season with no problems yet. It took half a day to make.
                                        >
                                        > If you look at the last photo under
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only_3 and the album
                                        > Philsboat the Lovely Duckling there is a photo of my 114 sq ft
                                        interpretation of Jim's 70 sq ft
                                        > sailplan. After examining his calculations,I noticed that the key
                                        thing when making his sail is to have the lower
                                        > dart's taper twice the size of the upper dart's taper. If you make
                                        sure that each side of your sail scales
                                        > to Jim's shape and your dart tapers are reasonable, then the rest of
                                        the measurements fall into place without
                                        > having to struggle with the maths.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers,
                                        >
                                        > Rob.
                                        >
                                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I added a file some time back:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/files/Balanced%20Lug%20Notes%20a\
                                        \
                                        > > nd%20Ideas/>
                                        > >
                                        > > This suggested an alternative rig half-way between a Balance lug and
                                        a
                                        > > Junk rig.
                                        > >
                                        > > Essentailly you add a batten at each reef point on a balance lug and
                                        a
                                        > > set of lazy jacks to it so reefs exactly like a junk rig. No reef
                                        points
                                        > > to have to be tied in. You reef a panel and the first batten falls
                                        onto
                                        > > the boom held in place by the jack lines. Tie in at your leisure if
                                        you
                                        > > wish.
                                        > >
                                        > > Sheetlets are added to a junk rig to prevent sail twist when going
                                        off
                                        > > the wind. In a sail under 100 sq. ft. these have been found to be
                                        > > unnessesary, but are still an option if you want to try it. A simple
                                        "Y"
                                        > > configuration to the two lowest battens with one sheetlet is all
                                        that is
                                        > > needed. If you have three reef points just leave the top one "as is"
                                        > > with no sheeting as it will twist and spill wind if hit by a gust.
                                        > >
                                        > > This rig seems particularly attractive if you use poly tarp - very
                                        cheap
                                        > > and very effective. Darts can located at each batten to give the
                                        sail
                                        > > some shape. The only "trick" that I am aware of is to find a good
                                        batten
                                        > > material. Two light weight thin battens riveted to each other or
                                        secured
                                        > > with zip ties seem an option accepted by the JR experts. John
                                        Tompkins
                                        > > found an alternative to wood in PVC electrical conduit. I wish I
                                        could
                                        > > locate some of that.
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junk/index.htm
                                        > >
                                        > > I believe John later shared that the above sail area worked fine
                                        without
                                        > > any sheetlets.
                                        > >
                                        > > You will also notice in this article that his rig has a parrel at
                                        each
                                        > > batten which keeps the batten from flying off too far from the mast
                                        when
                                        > > going downwind. Another option is what is called the "Hongkong"
                                        parrel
                                        > > system which has the parrels in one continuous line running back to
                                        the
                                        > > helm. They are slakened off when going downwind to allow the sail to
                                        be
                                        > > secured further forward of the mast with the downhaul. Then
                                        tightened up
                                        > > to be more like a standing lug when going to weather. A regular
                                        balance
                                        > > lug does not have that ability.
                                        > >
                                        > > Junk rig nuts tend to fool around with this type of stuff more than
                                        most
                                        > > people:-) They are forever trying to improve upwind performance
                                        which is
                                        > > not a strong suit of this type of rig.
                                        > >
                                        > > My thinking is that any design that calls for a balance lug rig can
                                        be
                                        > > tweaked if you want.
                                        > >
                                        > > Nels
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell <yonderman@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Come to think of it, I have an approximately 50 sq ft lateen rig
                                        > > > complete with aluminum spars and mast stashed in my garage. It
                                        came
                                        > > > off of an old Snark-ish styrofoam boat that hull has long since
                                        > > > perished. I keep it sitting around with the idea that I'm going to
                                        > > > build a hull for it one of these days. A PDR would work, I think.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > If you can find one of those, it would be about perfect I think.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                                        > > > > Thanks for the info. Trilars has a sprit rig as per plans but
                                        the
                                        > > balanced
                                        > > > > lug also looks good.
                                        > > > > Now about making that tapered solid wooden mast...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Bell yonderman@ wrote:
                                        > > > >>
                                        > > > >> My two cents: All the junk rigs I've seen in person are a bit
                                        of
                                        > > > >> hassle to get set up and sailing. There are a *lot* of lines to
                                        run
                                        > > > >> and keep from getting tangled. For a boat where the rig stays
                                        up
                                        > > all
                                        > > > >> the the time, it's probably pretty easy to manage. For a boat
                                        where
                                        > > > >> you'll need to set and strike the rig every time you sail, I'd
                                        > > > >> strongly recommend something simpler.
                                        > > > >>
                                        > > > >> My experience with balanced lugs and Sunfish-style lateen rigs
                                        has
                                        > > me
                                        > > > >> convinced they are among the simplest rigs around. All you have
                                        to
                                        > > run
                                        > > > >> is one halyard, a downhaul, and a sheet. Aside from the need to
                                        > > have a
                                        > > > >> fairly long mast, a leg o'mutton lashed to mast would be a very
                                        > > simple
                                        > > > >> rig to live with as well. You can buy the Bolger-Payson 59 sq
                                        ft
                                        > > Lo'M
                                        > > > >> sail quite inexpensively.
                                        > > > >>
                                        > > > >> All the sheetlets on junk rig would drive me to distraction.
                                        Also,
                                        > > on
                                        > > > >> such a small sail as would be on trilars, I don't see where
                                        having
                                        > > a
                                        > > > >> sheet on every batten is necessary. I think a small balanced
                                        lug of
                                        > > > >> ~50-60 square feet is the way to go.
                                        > > > >>
                                        > > > >>
                                        > > > >> On 10/19/09, russell.hobbs russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                                        > > > >> > I keep reading that it is the simplist of rigs. I need some
                                        > > feedback
                                        > > > >> > from Mr
                                        > > > >> > Michalak because the trilars design may not be compatible
                                        with
                                        > > the junk.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • ben_2_go
                                        Just some interesting links on junk and lug sails. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 27, 2009
                                          Just some interesting links on junk and lug sails.

                                          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm

                                          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/lugsails/index.htm


                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                                          > Is this a suitable rig?
                                          > Would dacron make a better sail?
                                          >
                                          > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use. I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use and reef.
                                          > Any input would be appreciated.
                                          > Russ Hobbs
                                          >
                                        • Nels A
                                          Great links which contrast the simplicity of a dipping lug, to the more complicated, but perhaps more manageable junk rig when single-handing. And then we have
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 27, 2009
                                            Great links which contrast the simplicity of a dipping lug, to the more
                                            complicated, but perhaps more manageable junk rig when single-handing.

                                            And then we have the balance lug as preferred by Jim, and the standing
                                            lug which offers a jib option.

                                            Can't go wrong with Jim's KISS philosophy. My focus recently is to
                                            consider poly tarp sail rigs larger than 100 square ft. in area which
                                            Jim feels is the maximum with poly tarp due to stresses on this
                                            somewhat weaker material.

                                            A junk rig as Mike Mulcahy writes about has very low stress on the sail
                                            material - which was why it evolved over time by the Chinese. A few
                                            tweaks such as adding nylon webbing "bolt ropes" and it strengthens
                                            things even more.

                                            One could compare the cost of a custom built Dacron sail with the poly
                                            tarp alternative Mike offers and probably save at least 50% with not
                                            much performance loss and easier reefing. The larger the sail the more
                                            you could save.

                                            A big challenge is the amount of string involved with the JR. Yet the
                                            more one studies this the more it makes sense and once it is set up, the
                                            advantages bceome apparent. A JR sail can also be larger in area than
                                            called for because it is so easy to reef. Nice if you sail in an area
                                            where winds are light in summer.

                                            The cost of poly tarp also allows more experimentation freedom if you
                                            don't mind the looks or feel.

                                            Nels


                                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ben_2_go" <ben_2_go@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Just some interesting links on junk and lug sails.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm
                                            >
                                            > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/lugsails/index.htm
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using
                                            a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with
                                            plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                                            > > Is this a suitable rig?
                                            > > Would dacron make a better sail?
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use.
                                            I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use
                                            and reef.
                                            > > Any input would be appreciated.
                                            > > Russ Hobbs
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • russell.hobbs
                                            Have we come full circle on the JR. A large JR would enable a coastal sailer here on the south coast of South Carolina to get out in the light breezes of the
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 28, 2009
                                              Have we come full circle on the JR. A large JR would enable a coastal sailer here on the south coast of South Carolina to get out in the light breezes of the morning and then adjust for the afternoon winds and storms. Anyone want to comment on mast rake and cb position for a JR?

                                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Great links which contrast the simplicity of a dipping lug, to the more
                                              > complicated, but perhaps more manageable junk rig when single-handing.
                                              >
                                              > And then we have the balance lug as preferred by Jim, and the standing
                                              > lug which offers a jib option.
                                              >
                                              > Can't go wrong with Jim's KISS philosophy. My focus recently is to
                                              > consider poly tarp sail rigs larger than 100 square ft. in area which
                                              > Jim feels is the maximum with poly tarp due to stresses on this
                                              > somewhat weaker material.
                                              >
                                              > A junk rig as Mike Mulcahy writes about has very low stress on the sail
                                              > material - which was why it evolved over time by the Chinese. A few
                                              > tweaks such as adding nylon webbing "bolt ropes" and it strengthens
                                              > things even more.
                                              >
                                              > One could compare the cost of a custom built Dacron sail with the poly
                                              > tarp alternative Mike offers and probably save at least 50% with not
                                              > much performance loss and easier reefing. The larger the sail the more
                                              > you could save.
                                              >
                                              > A big challenge is the amount of string involved with the JR. Yet the
                                              > more one studies this the more it makes sense and once it is set up, the
                                              > advantages bceome apparent. A JR sail can also be larger in area than
                                              > called for because it is so easy to reef. Nice if you sail in an area
                                              > where winds are light in summer.
                                              >
                                              > The cost of poly tarp also allows more experimentation freedom if you
                                              > don't mind the looks or feel.
                                              >
                                              > Nels
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ben_2_go" <ben_2_go@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Just some interesting links on junk and lug sails.
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/lugsails/index.htm
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" russell.hobbs@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of using
                                              > a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with
                                              > plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                                              > > > Is this a suitable rig?
                                              > > > Would dacron make a better sail?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of use.
                                              > I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to use
                                              > and reef.
                                              > > > Any input would be appreciated.
                                              > > > Russ Hobbs
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Nels A
                                              Russell, I would think what you describe is where a junk rig really shines, particularly when sailing solo, or with a small crew, since it is so easy and safe
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Oct 31, 2009
                                                Russell,

                                                I would think what you describe is where a junk rig really shines,
                                                particularly when sailing solo, or with a small crew, since it is so
                                                easy and safe to adjust sail area when the weather changes.

                                                If interested, I would suggest joining the junk rig Yahoo group:

                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/

                                                Lots of information in the files there, as well as help from members
                                                regarding the rig. Also the two books mentioned by Mike are always
                                                recommended.

                                                Since a junk rig is a form of balance lug, any design that calls for
                                                that is an ideal candidate for conversion.

                                                Mike recommends the mast should be vertical. In larger sails it may even
                                                have to be tilted forward slightly. This is because the JR is heavier
                                                than a regular lug rig and the forward tilt allows gravity to swing the
                                                boom outboard on its own in very light winds.

                                                From what I understand the COE of the sail should be slightly ahead of
                                                CLR of the centerboard when going upwind or right over it, depending on
                                                sail shape and wind strength. A JR allows some adjustment for that. But
                                                everyone seems to agree, each hull is a bit different.

                                                Several Michalak designs seem ideal since they already are luggers and
                                                the mast location and position can be easily tweaked. Blobster for
                                                example:

                                                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/blobster/index.htm

                                                Shows that likely the mast could be tilted forward slightly and junk
                                                rigged. I would likely shorten the spars to get better lead for the
                                                sheetlets and add a small mizzen on the stern.

                                                Junks and balance luggers tend to sail more upright with their lower
                                                aspect ratio sailplans, making them very comfortable over long distances
                                                and boxy hulls seem to work very well.

                                                They are not racers though and a good engine is always your best option
                                                if you have to slog to windward for very long.

                                                Nels


                                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" <russell.hobbs@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Have we come full circle on the JR. A large JR would enable a coastal
                                                sailer here on the south coast of South Carolina to get out in the light
                                                breezes of the morning and then adjust for the afternoon winds and
                                                storms. Anyone want to comment on mast rake and cb position for a JR?
                                                >
                                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Great links which contrast the simplicity of a dipping lug, to the
                                                more
                                                > > complicated, but perhaps more manageable junk rig when
                                                single-handing.
                                                > >
                                                > > And then we have the balance lug as preferred by Jim, and the
                                                standing
                                                > > lug which offers a jib option.
                                                > >
                                                > > Can't go wrong with Jim's KISS philosophy. My focus recently is to
                                                > > consider poly tarp sail rigs larger than 100 square ft. in area
                                                which
                                                > > Jim feels is the maximum with poly tarp due to stresses on this
                                                > > somewhat weaker material.
                                                > >
                                                > > A junk rig as Mike Mulcahy writes about has very low stress on the
                                                sail
                                                > > material - which was why it evolved over time by the Chinese. A few
                                                > > tweaks such as adding nylon webbing "bolt ropes" and it strengthens
                                                > > things even more.
                                                > >
                                                > > One could compare the cost of a custom built Dacron sail with the
                                                poly
                                                > > tarp alternative Mike offers and probably save at least 50% with not
                                                > > much performance loss and easier reefing. The larger the sail the
                                                more
                                                > > you could save.
                                                > >
                                                > > A big challenge is the amount of string involved with the JR. Yet
                                                the
                                                > > more one studies this the more it makes sense and once it is set up,
                                                the
                                                > > advantages bceome apparent. A JR sail can also be larger in area
                                                than
                                                > > called for because it is so easy to reef. Nice if you sail in an
                                                area
                                                > > where winds are light in summer.
                                                > >
                                                > > The cost of poly tarp also allows more experimentation freedom if
                                                you
                                                > > don't mind the looks or feel.
                                                > >
                                                > > Nels
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ben_2_go" <ben_2_go@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Just some interesting links on junk and lug sails.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm
                                                > > >
                                                > > > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/lugsails/index.htm
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "russell.hobbs" russell.hobbs@
                                                wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Got my Trilars plans and will be starting soon. I thinking of
                                                using
                                                > > a junk rig with unstayed mast on the trimaran. Found a website with
                                                > > plans for an 80 sq ft junk rig made from polytarp.
                                                > > > > Is this a suitable rig?
                                                > > > > Would dacron make a better sail?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I'm not so much interested in speed as I am safety and ease of
                                                use.
                                                > > I've never sailed a junk rig but from what I've read it's easy to
                                                use
                                                > > and reef.
                                                > > > > Any input would be appreciated.
                                                > > > > Russ Hobbs
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
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