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mayfly 14

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  • Scott Gosnell
    I am finally ready to build my first sailboat I live on the North Florida gulf coast, I have the plans for a mayfly 14, and my concern is about a flat bottom
    Message 1 of 15 , May 8, 2009
      I am finally ready to build my first "sailboat" I live on the North Florida gulf coast, I have the plans for a mayfly 14, and my concern is about a flat bottom boat in the bays where we do get quite a chop. Anyone know if this design is up for that? Sharpies seem to have been used almost everywhere up and down the eastcoast but havent had any luck finding recent reports.
      Thanks
      Scott
    • Don Swearingen
      Scott this is totally unrelated. Are you by any chance related to Kyle Gosnell? Don Swearingen To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com From: tsgosnell@yahoo.com Date:
      Message 2 of 15 , May 8, 2009
        Scott this is totally unrelated. Are you by any chance related to Kyle Gosnell?

        Don Swearingen







        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        From: tsgosnell@...
        Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 19:42:17 +0000
        Subject: [Michalak] mayfly 14







        I am finally ready to build my first "sailboat" I live on the North Florida gulf coast, I have the plans for a mayfly 14, and my concern is about a flat bottom boat in the bays where we do get quite a chop. Anyone know if this design is up for that? Sharpies seem to have been used almost everywhere up and down the eastcoast but havent had any luck finding recent reports.
        Thanks
        Scott










        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nels
        Scott, Very good point and one I have been thinking about quite a bit as well. Sharpies tend to sail best when heeled 15 degrees or more, so as to present a
        Message 3 of 15 , May 8, 2009
          Scott,

          Very good point and one I have been thinking about quite a bit as well. Sharpies tend to sail best when heeled 15 degrees or more, so as to present a vee form to the waves and cut through chop and from what I understand increasing the waterline length compared to beam also makes for a smoother ride. So traditional sharpies tended to be long and narrow relatively speaking.

          To my mind sailing with the proper amount of heel takes more sailing skill and experience to achieve than with a multi-chine which can be sailed more upright. Flatties and sharpies tend to pound more when under power as well since they are then more upright. And also slap more at anchor.

          The other trade-offs are that with a flat bottom, you get more interior floor space and with a multi-chine design one has to learn a new building technique - stitching the panels together with ties and filleting and taping the joints. So that raises the challenge of using expoxy rather than chine logs and glue and nails.

          I think some of Jim's designs are attractive in that the chine panels are relatively narrow so you still get some reasonable floor space and still should not pound as much as a flat bottom, when sailed less vigorously and also under power and at anchor. So I am planning to learn the stitch and tape technique since my sailing skills are minimal.

          The fact that Gary and Chuck chose a multi-chine design for the Florida Everglades Challenge is worth noting.

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/frolic2/index.htm

          Nels



          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Gosnell" <tsgosnell@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am finally ready to build my first "sailboat" I live on the North Florida gulf coast, I have the plans for a mayfly 14, and my concern is about a flat bottom boat in the bays where we do get quite a chop. Anyone know if this design is up for that? Sharpies seem to have been used almost everywhere up and down the eastcoast but havent had any luck finding recent reports.
          > Thanks
          > Scott
          >
        • Don Swearingen
          The Frolic 2 has a V bottom, and that s why it s so good in chop, I m told. However, there s a picture on one of the AF2 builders with the boat out in 35 mph
          Message 4 of 15 , May 8, 2009
            The Frolic 2 has a V bottom, and that's why it's so good in chop, I'm told. However, there's a picture on one of the AF2 builders with the boat out in 35 mph winds, and that's a sharpie.

            As soon as I get both boats built (2 year time span here, don't hold your breath!) I'll report.







            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            From: arvent@...
            Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 20:53:25 +0000
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: mayfly 14







            Scott,

            Very good point and one I have been thinking about quite a bit as well. Sharpies tend to sail best when heeled 15 degrees or more, so as to present a vee form to the waves and cut through chop and from what I understand increasing the waterline length compared to beam also makes for a smoother ride. So traditional sharpies tended to be long and narrow relatively speaking.

            To my mind sailing with the proper amount of heel takes more sailing skill and experience to achieve than with a multi-chine which can be sailed more upright. Flatties and sharpies tend to pound more when under power as well since they are then more upright. And also slap more at anchor.

            The other trade-offs are that with a flat bottom, you get more interior floor space and with a multi-chine design one has to learn a new building technique - stitching the panels together with ties and filleting and taping the joints. So that raises the challenge of using expoxy rather than chine logs and glue and nails.

            I think some of Jim's designs are attractive in that the chine panels are relatively narrow so you still get some reasonable floor space and still should not pound as much as a flat bottom, when sailed less vigorously and also under power and at anchor. So I am planning to learn the stitch and tape technique since my sailing skills are minimal.

            The fact that Gary and Chuck chose a multi-chine design for the Florida Everglades Challenge is worth noting.

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/frolic2/index.htm

            Nels

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Gosnell" <tsgosnell@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am finally ready to build my first "sailboat" I live on the North Florida gulf coast, I have the plans for a mayfly 14, and my concern is about a flat bottom boat in the bays where we do get quite a chop. Anyone know if this design is up for that? Sharpies seem to have been used almost everywhere up and down the eastcoast but havent had any luck finding recent reports.
            > Thanks
            > Scott
            >










            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nels
            Hi Don, Frolic2 has a V entry in the bow and a flat bottom through the main body of the hull. See cross-section diagrams here:
            Message 5 of 15 , May 9, 2009
              Hi Don,

              Frolic2 has a V entry in the bow and a flat bottom through the main body of the hull. See cross-section diagrams here:

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/frolic2/index.htm

              Jim has this to say about it:

              "Frolic2 has a small cabin, probably only for one to sleep in because the multichines that make the boat good in rough water also rob you of floor space. To say it another way, the nice big floor space of a flat bottomed sharpie is what pounds in rough water and makes you uncomfortable." Then later on adds:

              "Frolic2 was designed for rough water, long and lean, especially in the bow, and with multiple chines. She's really a takeoff of my Toto canoe in shape."

              I believe Gary and his wife were both able to sleep in the cabin of Oaracle together.

              The open version of this design comparable to a Mayfly 14 would be Wooboto and uses the same sail.

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/wooboto/index.htm

              Nels


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Don Swearingen <opaswearingen@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The Frolic 2 has a V bottom, and that's why it's so good in chop, I'm told. However, there's a picture on one of the AF2 builders with the boat out in 35 mph winds, and that's a sharpie.
              >
              > As soon as I get both boats built (2 year time span here, don't hold your breath!) I'll report.
              >
            • gbship
              Scott: I sailed a Bolger Zephyr for years on the N. Fla. Gulf Coast and it did okay. Flat bottoms will pound in a chop, but as long as the boat is built well,
              Message 6 of 15 , May 9, 2009
                Scott:
                I sailed a Bolger Zephyr for years on the N. Fla. Gulf Coast and it did okay. Flat bottoms will pound in a chop, but as long as the boat is built well, it's an annoyance rather than a problem. Heeling helped a little but not as much as I expected. It just seemed to expose the flat bottom to the oncoming waves.

                The double chine shape of Frolic2 and other such boats (I have a 30-footer of the same shape) are better, but they still have a flat bottom, albeit narrower than a skiff or flattie. They still will pound in the right wave, but not as bad. V-bottom boats are probably the best, but also probably the hardest to build. I had a 20-foot Bolger-designed v-bottom catboat (known as Cartoon 40) that gave an absolutely cadillac ride and pinpoint handling while being steady on course. But having a deeper belly, it was probably slower than a Frolic2, although the sensation wasn't that it was slower. I know that shallower v-bottom designs, such as the Core Sound series, are much faster than Frolic2, but I haven't had a ride on one to see how they do in a chop. I expect they do rather well.

                Here's a couple of video clips for comparison:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7un1SZ-YYo
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb2szfIJCVA

                The first is a Goat Island Skiff. In the second sequence. you can see it going through a small chop in St. Joe Bay. the reef was precautionary and probably not needed. The camera is in a waterproof plastic case, but you can still hear the boat pounding. Despite that, it's still making good progress. The camera boat is our Frolic2. The two had been closely matched running and reaching, but as the clip shows, close hauled the Frolic2 was much faster. Olivier, on the GIS, shot a picture of our boat as it went by and it shows it just cutting through the chop.

                The second clip is of a Wooboto a couple weeks ago off Alligator Point, south of Tallahassee. Watch, in the second sequence, as I ask Noel Davis how the boat handles the chop just as he hits a motorboat wake. Question answered . . . . (BTW, the GIS was the photo boat for this. The last sequence on the first clip is from that day as the GIS goes by Wooboto, although in fairness the winds were light, the GIS was carrying her full 105 square feet of sail while the Wooboto was using my old small 55 square foot Piccup sail, not her designed 74 square foot mail and 15 square foot mizzen.)

                If you're in N. Fla. you can't be too far from Tallahassee. Maybe you can arrange to get by and you could sample a GIS, Piccup, Wooboto, and Frolic2 for comparison.

                Nels: Helen is a very talented with a sewing maching, and we made custom 4" cuishions, beveled to match the angle fo the bilge panels. Not only are they comfortable, they had the effect of adding several inches of width in the hip and foot areas. Because of that, we've never felt cramped when we've both slept below. Without the cushions, Noel and I slept head to foot below on one rough night in an EC, and in another EC when i didn't want to take the mast down, Chuck slept lying down and I slept reclining below (Sleeps 1 1/2!). We've also slept one (always me) below and one (Chuck or Noel) on a cockpit seat, although Noel found out the hard way the seat is 1" shorter than he is . . .

                Gary



                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Gosnell" <tsgosnell@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am finally ready to build my first "sailboat" I live on the North Florida gulf coast, I have the plans for a mayfly 14, and my concern is about a flat bottom boat in the bays where we do get quite a chop. Anyone know if this design is up for that? Sharpies seem to have been used almost everywhere up and down the eastcoast but havent had any luck finding recent reports.
                > Thanks
                > Scott
                >
              • Don Swearingen
                Tnx. I ve got the plans for both. I m going to build both. But all in good time. To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com From: arvent@hotmail.com Date: Sat, 9 May 2009
                Message 7 of 15 , May 9, 2009
                  Tnx. I've got the plans for both. I'm going to build both. But all in good time.







                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  From: arvent@...
                  Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 12:40:21 +0000
                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: mayfly 14 vs Frolic 2








                  Hi Don,

                  Frolic2 has a V entry in the bow and a flat bottom through the main body of the hull. See cross-section diagrams here:

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/frolic2/index.htm

                  Jim has this to say about it:

                  "Frolic2 has a small cabin, probably only for one to sleep in because the multichines that make the boat good in rough water also rob you of floor space. To say it another way, the nice big floor space of a flat bottomed sharpie is what pounds in rough water and makes you uncomfortable." Then later on adds:

                  "Frolic2 was designed for rough water, long and lean, especially in the bow, and with multiple chines. She's really a takeoff of my Toto canoe in shape."

                  I believe Gary and his wife were both able to sleep in the cabin of Oaracle together.

                  The open version of this design comparable to a Mayfly 14 would be Wooboto and uses the same sail.

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/wooboto/index.htm

                  Nels

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Don Swearingen <opaswearingen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The Frolic 2 has a V bottom, and that's why it's so good in chop, I'm told. However, there's a picture on one of the AF2 builders with the boat out in 35 mph winds, and that's a sharpie.
                  >
                  > As soon as I get both boats built (2 year time span here, don't hold your breath!) I'll report.
                  >










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nels
                  ... in good time. I think it is also useful to consider just how much chop one would normally be dealing with in their particular sailing location. A lot of
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 9, 2009
                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Don Swearingen <opaswearingen@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Tnx. I've got the plans for both. I'm going to build both. But all
                    in good time.


                    I think it is also useful to consider just "how much chop" one would
                    normally be dealing with in their particular sailing location. A lot of
                    short sharp chop can be bothersome in shallower water with winds against
                    the tide and currents for example. Quartering into it can also ease the
                    pounding a lot.

                    For me, being a newbie at sailing. I would probably reef earlier than a
                    guy like Gary. and then would be sailing with a more upright hull - or
                    even drop the sail and fire up the motor instead out of fear of
                    capsizing. Therefor a hull like Roboto might be a better choice than a
                    Mayfly.

                    Also Roboto would appear to have more spray deflection in the bow
                    section?

                    Nels
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