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Balanced Lug Sail Question

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  • windgypsy34
    As our Mikesboat nears completion, I d appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I m especially concerned about the
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2009
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      As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm especially concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and lowered. We are planning to use the halyard system as shown on Michael Storer's website that brings the halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I've sailed larger sloops for 40 years, but this rig is a new venture. Dave
    • David Cassidy
      Check out Michalak s newsletter from 3/15 -- it has an essay on the balanced lug. http://www.jimsboats.com/15mar09.htm The sail is attached to the mast at the
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2009
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        Check out Michalak's newsletter from 3/15 -- it has an essay on the
        balanced lug.
        http://www.jimsboats.com/15mar09.htm

        The sail is attached to the mast at the halyard attach point and at
        the boom, which keeps it from getting out of control - just make sure
        you do this before hoisting.

        You can see the boom tie down on my AF3 sail here:
        http://www.davidcmaguire.com/AF3/AF3/Last_Sail_2008.html

        David C

        On Apr 1, 2009, at 7:43 PM, windgypsy34 wrote:

        > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or
        > suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm
        > especially concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is
        > hoisted and lowered. We are planning to use the halyard system as
        > shown on Michael Storer's website that brings the halyard to a block
        > on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower
        > end of the yard. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I've
        > sailed larger sloops for 40 years, but this rig is a new venture.
        > Dave
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • brent_wm
        ... You should have parrels on both the yard and the boom. As long as those are looped around the mast the sail has no options but up and down. Forget to
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:
          >
          > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or
          >suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm especially
          > concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and
          >lowered. . .

          You should have parrels on both the yard and the boom. As long as those are looped around the mast the sail has no options but up and down. Forget to fasten one of them and it can get exciting.
        • Rob Rohde-Szudy
          You know, I used that approach, but it can be touchy. Make sure your parrels aren t too tight or you ll end up with the boom and yard making and X rather than
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 3, 2009
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            You know, I used that approach, but it can be touchy. Make sure your parrels aren't too tight or you'll end up with the boom and yard making and X rather than laying parallel.
             
            Kilburn Adams told me about what might be a better solution. His yard has a ring lashed to the middle and a loop to clip to near the throat. He'd run the halyard's clip through the ring, around the mast, then clip it near the throat. On hoisting this loop would tighten around the mast when the sail was fully raised. Nice. On realeasing the halyard it loosened immediately so you could douse the sail in a hurry. Again, nice.
             
            No matter how you do the parrel, you have to grab the luff of the sail to control the descent of the peak. The higher the sail is peaked, the bigger an issue this is.
             
            I'm less sure about Kilburn's approach to the downhaul. He attached it at the tack and fastened it right at the mast. I think this loses some of the best attributes of the balanced lug - self vanging and polite in a gybe. I'd stick with Michalak's boom parrel and downhaul.
             
            --Rob
             
             
            Re: Balanced Lug Sail Question
               Posted by: "brent_wm" bminchey@... brent_wm
                Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 6:42 am ((PDT))

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:
            >
            > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or
            >suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main.  I'm especially
            > concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and
            >lowered. . .

            You should have parrels on both the yard and the boom. As long as those are looped around the mast the sail has no options but up and down. Forget to fasten one of them and it can get exciting.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David
            As you ve no doubt seen from studying the Storer drawings, he eschews parrel beads and such. I have now built two balanced lug rigs with that type of setup,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 6, 2009
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              As you've no doubt seen from studying the Storer drawings, he eschews parrel beads and such. I have now built two balanced lug rigs with that type of setup, and am quite happy with the simplicity, adjustability, and nearly foolproof nature. There are all sorts of setups for a balanced lug, any most of them would work just fine... but two of the most respected names in small boat design use this type: Ian Oughtred and Michael Storer. Having sailed our Goat Island Skiff a good bit over the last few years, I can see why.

              Cheers,
              David G
              Harbor Woodworks

              "When we ask for advice, we are usually looking for an accomplice"

              ***********************

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:
              >
              > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm especially concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and lowered. We are planning to use the halyard system as shown on Michael Storer's website that brings the halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I've sailed larger sloops for 40 years, but this rig is a new venture. Dave
              >
            • brent_wm
              Rob, I just assumed that parrals on both yards was the normal way since all of my balanced lug sailing has been done in your old boat. Forgot to mention that
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 6, 2009
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                Rob, I just assumed that parrals on both yards was the normal way since all of my balanced lug sailing has been done in your old boat. Forgot to mention that downhaul. Need to have it tied off (but with lots of slack until the sail is set) when you hoist in high winds or the boom can follow the yard right up.

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
                >
                > You know, I used that approach, but it can be touchy. Make sure your parrels aren't too tight or you'll end up with the boom and yard making and X rather than laying parallel.
              • gbship
                There are two problems with the yard hoisting and lowering. One is that if it isn t held close to the mast, with a parrel or with the method Storer specifies
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 7, 2009
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                  There are two problems with the yard hoisting and lowering. One is that if it isn't held close to the mast, with a parrel or with the method Storer specifies for the Goat Island Skiff, the yard can kite off the mast spectacularly. On the water, this can flip you faster than anything.

                  The second problem is as the sail is raised or lowered, the aft end of the yard hangs down from the mast and can flail around like a demented club. On a small sail, hauling down on the luff as the sail is lowered is the easiest way to control things. That gets a bit trickier as the sail gets larger. The Storer method of rigging the halyard from the masthead through a block and then around the mast to the front of the yard, seems to mostly cure the flailing problem on the GIS. I tried it on my Frolic2 and it didn't work quite as well, but better than nothing. Haven't figured our why the difference as the two sails are nearly identical is size, although GIS is higher peaked.

                  Bolger has devised two methods for dealing with this on larger balanced lugs. One is to attach a line about one-third of the way forward from the aft end of the yard and then run that through a block or dumbsheave at the masthead and down to the deck. It functions sort of like a peak halyard on a gaff rig, except the only function is to control the yard as it goes up and down. The second is to run a line from the front of the yard through a block on the foredeck. Taking in this line as the halyard is eased -- and vice versa as the sail is raised -- also controls the yard. I'm not sure what size of balanced lug justifies the extra rigging. I haven't bothered with the 114 square foot Frolic 2 sail, but it's getting close to the size where the extra control would be appreciated.

                  Gary

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm especially concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and lowered. We are planning to use the halyard system as shown on Michael Storer's website that brings the halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I've sailed larger sloops for 40 years, but this rig is a new venture. Dave
                  >
                • Norm Wolfe
                  Concerning the yard tendency to hang vertical when being raised and lowered: On both NormsBoat and RAIDER, I made the yard heavier on the fore end than the aft
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 7, 2009
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                    Concerning the yard tendency to hang vertical when being raised and lowered: On both NormsBoat and RAIDER, I made the yard heavier on the fore end than the aft end. On NormsBoat, I made the wooden yard hollow for the aft 60% and solid for the forward 40%. It raises and lowers conveniently. It is not perfectly level, but is not a spear, either. On RAIDER, which has an aluminum yard, I made both ends from wood, to have a large hole at each end. The forward piece of wood is about 14" long; the aft one only about 4". Both are epoxied into the aluminum tube. Same result: the yard raises and lowers somewhat horizontal.

                    I use a parrel on the yard, and am going to try Jim's method this summer. For the down haul, I tie it to the boom just in front of the mast, lead it down half way around the mast to a turning point, back up to the boom but just aft of the mast, over the boom (no block needed) and down to the cleat. I lean on the boom while tightening, and it serves to keep the boom next to the mast as well as tightening the leading edge.

                    Great rig.
                    Norm

                    (Quoted from Gary's message)
                    > The second problem is as the sail is raised or lowered, the aft end >of the yard hangs down from the mast and can flail around like a >demented club.
                  • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                    Hey Brent! Hope the piccup is still doing the job!   Yeah, I learned about Kilburn s way only a couple years ago, after building the light schooner.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 7, 2009
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                      Hey Brent! Hope the piccup is still doing the job!
                       
                      Yeah, I learned about Kilburn's way only a couple years ago, after building the light schooner. interestingly, the schooner CAN be sailed with the same sails rigged as balanced lugs if you leave off the jib and move the sheet horses. I tried it with temporary horses and it worked really nicely. Except the foresail horse ended up in a less-than-convenient position.
                       
                      --Rob
                       
                       
                      Re: Balanced Lug Sail Question
                          Posted by: "brent_wm" bminchey@... brent_wm
                          Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 7:04 pm ((PDT))

                      Rob, I just assumed that parrals on both yards was the normal way since all of my balanced lug sailing has been done in your old boat. Forgot to mention that downhaul. Need to have it tied off (but with lots of slack until the sail is set) when you hoist in high winds or the boom can follow the yard right up.

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You know, I used that approach, but it can be touchy. Make sure your parrels aren't too tight or you'll end up with the boom and yard making and X rather than laying parallel.






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Phillip Lea
                      I used the halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard. But found it got too tight and too much
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 8, 2009
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                        I used the "halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard." But found it got too tight and too much friction by the time it neared the mast head--required way too excessive force to get it block-to-block. Did not like that at all. Abandoned that in favor of a 1/4" line with a dozen or so wooden beads from Hobby Lobby looped around mast and halyard which lets the yard rise to the mast head block like butter.

                        Phil Lea


                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > As you've no doubt seen from studying the Storer drawings, he eschews parrel beads and such. I have now built two balanced lug rigs with that type of setup, and am quite happy with the simplicity, adjustability, and nearly foolproof nature. There are all sorts of setups for a balanced lug, any most of them would work just fine... but two of the most respected names in small boat design use this type: Ian Oughtred and Michael Storer. Having sailed our Goat Island Skiff a good bit over the last few years, I can see why.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > David G
                        > Harbor Woodworks
                        >
                        > "When we ask for advice, we are usually looking for an accomplice"
                        >
                        > ***********************
                        >
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm especially concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and lowered. We are planning to use the halyard system as shown on Michael Storer's website that brings the halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I've sailed larger sloops for 40 years, but this rig is a new venture. Dave
                        > >
                        >
                      • gbship
                        Phil: Is your mast round or square? When I used the big bead parrel on the Frolic2 s old, square wooden mast, it worked pretty well, but did have a lot of
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 8, 2009
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                          Phil:
                          Is your mast round or square? When I used the "big bead parrel" on the Frolic2's old, square wooden mast, it worked pretty well, but did have a lot of friction a couple times. It worked perfectly when I switched to a skinnier, round carbon fiber mast. I've only used the halyard around the mast method with the carbon mast, but my friend Olivier hasn't had any problems that I know using that on his square mast.

                          Gary

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Phillip Lea" <phillip_lea@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I used the "halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard." But found it got too tight and too much friction by the time it neared the mast head--required way too excessive force to get it block-to-block. Did not like that at all. Abandoned that in favor of a 1/4" line with a dozen or so wooden beads from Hobby Lobby looped around mast and halyard which lets the yard rise to the mast head block like butter.
                          >
                          > Phil Lea
                          >
                        • David Cassidy
                          On my balanced lug halyard, I use the beads, too, but I have a snap on the end of the line and a knot a few inches away from the last bead. Snapping the
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 8, 2009
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                            On my balanced lug halyard, I use the beads, too, but I have a snap on
                            the end of the line and a knot a few inches away from the last bead.
                            Snapping the shackle beyond the knot keeps a the loop around the mast
                            with the beads at a constant length, so there is never any binding.

                            This is straight out of Michalak's writings:

                            http://www.jimsboats.com/15mar09.htm

                            ----------





                            On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:18 PM, gbship wrote:

                            > Phil:
                            > Is your mast round or square? When I used the "big bead parrel" on
                            > the Frolic2's old, square wooden mast, it worked pretty well, but
                            > did have a lot of friction a couple times. It worked perfectly when
                            > I switched to a skinnier, round carbon fiber mast. I've only used
                            > the halyard around the mast method with the carbon mast, but my
                            > friend Olivier hasn't had any problems that I know using that on his
                            > square mast.
                            >
                            > Gary
                            >
                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Phillip Lea" <phillip_lea@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I used the "halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast,
                            >> and finally ending at the lower end of the yard." But found it got
                            >> too tight and too much friction by the time it neared the mast
                            >> head--required way too excessive force to get it block-to-block.
                            >> Did not like that at all. Abandoned that in favor of a 1/4" line
                            >> with a dozen or so wooden beads from Hobby Lobby looped around mast
                            >> and halyard which lets the yard rise to the mast head block like
                            >> butter.
                            >>
                            >> Phil Lea
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Phillip Lea
                            Gary, Mast and yard are smooth varnished round pine. I think it may have been the type of dacron halyard that I was using. And the boom is heavy. Near the
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 9, 2009
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                              Gary,

                              Mast and yard are smooth varnished round pine. I think it may have been the type of dacron halyard that I was using. And the boom is heavy. Near the top with the weight of yard, sail and boom, too much friction. (And oh by the way, mine happens to be a standing lug, but of course is the same at the masthead). But the parrel beads work great in all conditions so far.

                              Phil


                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" <gbship@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Phil:
                              > Is your mast round or square? When I used the "big bead parrel" on the Frolic2's old, square wooden mast, it worked pretty well, but did have a lot of friction a couple times. It worked perfectly when I switched to a skinnier, round carbon fiber mast. I've only used the halyard around the mast method with the carbon mast, but my friend Olivier hasn't had any problems that I know using that on his square mast.
                              >
                              > Gary
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Phillip Lea" <phillip_lea@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I used the "halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard." But found it got too tight and too much friction by the time it neared the mast head--required way too excessive force to get it block-to-block. Did not like that at all. Abandoned that in favor of a 1/4" line with a dozen or so wooden beads from Hobby Lobby looped around mast and halyard which lets the yard rise to the mast head block like butter.
                              > >
                              > > Phil Lea
                              > >
                              >
                            • David
                              I d agree. With our Storer-style balanced lug setup on the GIS, our yard doesn t seem to want to spear down at us. Here s a link to our very first day of
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 10, 2009
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                                I'd agree. With our Storer-style balanced lug setup on the GIS, our yard doesn't seem to want to spear down at us. Here's a link to our very first day of sailing her - a few years back. You'll see my 10 year old releasing the halyard. He's not pulling down on the luff... just allowing the whole thing to come down as it will.

                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/arbordg/3421473739/in/set-72157606036848665/

                                Cheers,
                                David G

                                "It's a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" -- Douglas Adams

                                *******************

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" <gbship@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > There are two problems with the yard hoisting and lowering. One is that if it isn't held close to the mast, with a parrel or with the method Storer specifies for the Goat Island Skiff, the yard can kite off the mast spectacularly. On the water, this can flip you faster than anything.
                                >
                                > The second problem is as the sail is raised or lowered, the aft end of the yard hangs down from the mast and can flail around like a demented club. On a small sail, hauling down on the luff as the sail is lowered is the easiest way to control things. That gets a bit trickier as the sail gets larger. The Storer method of rigging the halyard from the masthead through a block and then around the mast to the front of the yard, seems to mostly cure the flailing problem on the GIS. I tried it on my Frolic2 and it didn't work quite as well, but better than nothing. Haven't figured our why the difference as the two sails are nearly identical is size, although GIS is higher peaked.
                                >
                                > Bolger has devised two methods for dealing with this on larger balanced lugs. One is to attach a line about one-third of the way forward from the aft end of the yard and then run that through a block or dumbsheave at the masthead and down to the deck. It functions sort of like a peak halyard on a gaff rig, except the only function is to control the yard as it goes up and down. The second is to run a line from the front of the yard through a block on the foredeck. Taking in this line as the halyard is eased -- and vice versa as the sail is raised -- also controls the yard. I'm not sure what size of balanced lug justifies the extra rigging. I haven't bothered with the 114 square foot Frolic 2 sail, but it's getting close to the size where the extra control would be appreciated.
                                >
                                > Gary
                                >
                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > As our Mikesboat nears completion, I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions regarding handling the balanced lug main. I'm especially concerned about the yard flailing around as the sail is hoisted and lowered. We are planning to use the halyard system as shown on Michael Storer's website that brings the halyard to a block on the yard, then around the mast, and finally ending at the lower end of the yard. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. I've sailed larger sloops for 40 years, but this rig is a new venture. Dave
                                > >
                                >
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