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Re: Michalak's in S.E. Queensland

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  • Murray Stevens
    ... Al, Jim s instructions have you building the Ladybug right side up as you propose to proceed. I was building mine that way but decided to flip it over
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 11, 2009
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      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "avsube" <raburke@...> wrote:

      > Like Mick,I have ladybug plans & am just putting together the materials in order to get started soon.
      >
      > I have built & repaired quite a lot of boats & have decided to put Ladybug together sitting right way up starting with loosely stitching the bottom panel, which is chocked up to approximate rocker, to the bilge panels,then the side panels,then insert & stitch the bulkheads,transom & stem.There are no difficult cuves to have to bend plywood around with Ladybug.I've done it this way several times & find it gives me good control over keeping the hull fair & square until all seams are epoxy filleted & taped,& the epoxy fully cured,at which stage the hull is almost completely rigid & when turned over to do the outside seams,is easy to true up again before starting to fill seam gaps,fair & apply fibreglass tape.
      >
      > This is just my preference & there is no right or wrong way to do it...Jim suggests a slightly different sequence & some might start with the hull upside down,then turn it & do the inside seams.I prefer to do the inside seams first as they add significant stiffness to the early part of the build.Also when I tighten the plastic tie stiches,I put a wooden paddle pop stick between the panels next to each stitch which gives a small even gap between all panels & when the thickened epoxy fillet is formed on the inner seams,some epoxy oozes out to fill much of the outer seam gap.On turning the hull,this is then faired to a nice smooth radius(after filling any gaps that may still be there) ready for glass taping the seams or glassing the whole of the outside if that is what you want.
      >
      > Anyway, enough of me ...just be assured that you can always call for help here.I'm new to this particular forum but it already clear that there are lots of active & keen members to talk to.
      >
      > Al Burke

      Al,

      Jim's instructions have you building the Ladybug right side up as you propose to proceed. I was building mine that way but decided to flip it over after some email discussions with Chuck Leinweber. I truly believe that if I had tried to fit the bilge panels when it was right side up I'd have had an expensive bonfire instead of a boat.

      I had a devil of a time fitting the bilge panels. I don't know if I messed up measuring them or what but I needed gravity to help me get things fitted properly and after doing it I can't imagine doing it any other way. I spent hours and hours with the handplane slowly working away until they fit the gap nicely. I think it was much easier doing this at chest level than it would be if I'd had to reach under the boat at a fairly low level.

      I was a first time builder...of basically anything...and I think upside down is the best way for a beginner. It sure was for this beginner!!

      Maybe if you are having a hard time fitting the bilge panels with it right side up...roll it over carefully with some plywood screwed to the bulkheads to keep it solid so that the joints between the bulkheads and side panels don't crack...and try fitting the bilge panels with it upside down.

      Cheers,

      Murray









      >
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "simonfbroad" <simonfbroad@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi
      > > I've spent the last couple of days wandering through this group looking for information.
      > > I want to build a boat and learn to sail, and Jim's designs look reasonably simple (and inexpensive) to build - I was looking at the AF3 as being one of the simplest for a novice builder.
      > >
      > > Thing is, everyone here who seems to be sailing them appears to be sailing them on lakes in the U.S. or in sheltered bays.
      > >
      > > Are there any Queenslander's here sailing Michalak designs in the Morton Bay area, or up and down the coast? Could you?
      > >
      > > I tend to think the Pacific Ocean and Coral Sea might be a bit rougher than some of the lakes, not that I intend going more than a few hundred yards from shore, but would Jim's designs be OK in this region?
      > >
      > > Initially there are some very sheltered, and shallow, waters I can use, but as I gain experience and want to venture out into the bay, or up the coast, will I have to go and build another boat for that?
      > >
      >
    • simonfbroad
      Al Thanks for your input, and some good advice, especially about your build technique. Currently I am building a small open boat -
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 11, 2009
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        Al

        Thanks for your input, and some good advice, especially about your build technique.

        Currently I am building a small open boat - http://www.simplicityboats.com/summerbreeze2.htm
        It's allowed my to make all those mistakes that everyone makes, and has been a big benefit in organizing my garage, tools, and workbench to make future projects much smoother.

        I'm using Bote-Cote 2-part epoxy on this build, and I have a copy of their book, it has been very useful. Boat Craft about 30 minute drive from where I work which is real handy.

        I've also placed an 'order' with my kids for Jim's book for my birthday later this month.

        I have been watching BaysideWoodenBoats too, I liked the look of Phoenix III but thought it too complex. When First Mate was announced I put off building my Summer Breeze to see how it looked, but Ross's build seemed to get pushed aside for the bigger and better Periwinkle. I've recommended Ross's tutorial on other forums too - he should really put it into a book.
        If I build a larger open boat it would be Periwinkle or a Pathfinder, I think.

        One other really good resource is, of course, AABB [Australian Amateur Boat Builder] magazine (lover Ross's articals) as there is a lot of good information, ready help, and other peoples builds - it's what really talked me into building a boat instead of buying one, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

        Once I have built the Summer Breeze and started to learn the ropes, I want something with a small cabin. Take the family over to Bribie Island or down Pumicestone Passage for the day, or take myself or me and the wife up the coast with the ability to camp over night.

        I'd be keen to hear peoples evaluations of AF3 vs. Toon2 for this purpose.

        Simon.

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "avsube" <raburke@...> wrote:
        >
        > Simon & Mick,
        >
        > I concur with Mick's suggestion to make a simple canoe first to learn the techniques involved with stitch & glue building.A simple Pirogue ( flat-bottomed canoe) will allow you to experince probably all the skills needed to make almost any size or design you may be thinking of building and remove the stress of confronting some previously unknown techniques as you progress with the canoe....and you'll be surprised how much you use & enjoy that little boat for years to come.
        >
        > There are many good canoe designs around and a design of a 14' pirogue is available as a free download at www.bateau.com in the USA...I made one many years ago & it is a beauty.They also have an excellent building tutorial on the site.
        >
        > Books to buy would have to include Jim Michalak's first book.
        >
        > Also get a copy ( about $5) of "Boatbuilding with Bote-Cote" by Boatcoat Pacific in Brisbane....www.boatcraft.com.au...while this discusses all the boat-building products they make ( & they are excellent...I have used their 2- part epoxy) it is also one of the best basic boat-building catalogues I have read.Loaded with god tips.
        >
        > Plus do yourself a huge favour & look at
        > www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au.This will take you to a site by Ross Lillistone who used to build traditional & modern wooden boats at Wynnum/Manly near you(Simon) & recently re-located to Esk.Ross has documented the build of a number of his own & other designs & done it in a photo format that is in itself a very thorough tutorial on stitch & glue building.
        >
        > Look particularly at the build of his "First Mate" design ( Mick) as it is very similar to building something like "Ladybug".I have to confess here that Ross is also a mate & a thorough gentlemen.
        >
        > Like Mick,I have ladybug plans & am just putting together the materials in order to get started soon.
        >
        > I have built & repaired quite a lot of boats & have decided to put Ladybug together sitting right way up starting with loosely stitching the bottom panel, which is chocked up to approximate rocker, to the bilge panels,then the side panels,then insert & stitch the bulkheads,transom & stem.There are no difficult cuves to have to bend plywood around with Ladybug.I've done it this way several times & find it gives me good control over keeping the hull fair & square until all seams are epoxy filleted & taped,& the epoxy fully cured,at which stage the hull is almost completely rigid & when turned over to do the outside seams,is easy to true up again before starting to fill seam gaps,fair & apply fibreglass tape.
        >
        > This is just my preference & there is no right or wrong way to do it...Jim suggests a slightly different sequence & some might start with the hull upside down,then turn it & do the inside seams.I prefer to do the inside seams first as they add significant stiffness to the early part of the build.Also when I tighten the plastic tie stiches,I put a wooden paddle pop stick between the panels next to each stitch which gives a small even gap between all panels & when the thickened epoxy fillet is formed on the inner seams,some epoxy oozes out to fill much of the outer seam gap.On turning the hull,this is then faired to a nice smooth radius(after filling any gaps that may still be there) ready for glass taping the seams or glassing the whole of the outside if that is what you want.
        >
        > Anyway, enough of me ...just be assured that you can always call for help here.I'm new to this particular forum but it already clear that there are lots of active & keen members to talk to.
        >
        > Al Burke
        >
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "simonfbroad" <simonfbroad@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi
        > > I've spent the last couple of days wandering through this group looking for information.
        > > I want to build a boat and learn to sail, and Jim's designs look reasonably simple (and inexpensive) to build - I was looking at the AF3 as being one of the simplest for a novice builder.
        > >
        > > Thing is, everyone here who seems to be sailing them appears to be sailing them on lakes in the U.S. or in sheltered bays.
        > >
        > > Are there any Queenslander's here sailing Michalak designs in the Morton Bay area, or up and down the coast? Could you?
        > >
        > > I tend to think the Pacific Ocean and Coral Sea might be a bit rougher than some of the lakes, not that I intend going more than a few hundred yards from shore, but would Jim's designs be OK in this region?
        > >
        > > Initially there are some very sheltered, and shallow, waters I can use, but as I gain experience and want to venture out into the bay, or up the coast, will I have to go and build another boat for that?
        > >
        >
      • avsube
        Murray, I really appreciate your input.I haven t replied to you yet as I was waiting for Chuck to havesome input before replying to everyone.In the meantime, I
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 12, 2009
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          Murray,

          I really appreciate your input.I haven't replied to you yet as I was waiting for Chuck to havesome input before replying to everyone.In the meantime, I have contacted him direct & discussed the problem & as he is a busy fellow he has obviously not had time yet to respond on this forum.

          With my method,there is no gluing until all panels including bulkheads,transom & stem are stitched together & everything fits perfectly.If the panels are drawn correctly, then they will all come together nicely as the ties are gradually tightened.If any of them do not fit then something has gone wrong in plotting the shapes before cutting out or the cutting out has either left too much on or taken too much off,& if this happens,particularly to the bulkheads,then the bottom,bilge & side panels will be difficult to fit neatly.By pulling it all together gradually before gluing,these bad fitting areas will be obvious & some trimming & adjusting can be done to make it all fit.It's easy to cut a whole heap of plastic ties & re-do them after adjustments.This is not uncommon & provided you check all your measurements before trimming,the areas needing attention usually become obvious & the fix successful....all part of the joy of boatbuilding.

          I have made a couple of boats where the bottom & side panels came together at the bow at a point which required severe bending of the plywood which took up to 2 weeks of soaking down with towels draped over these panels & boiling water poured over them for hours on end,all the while increasing the clamping pressure in very small doses so as not to break the plywood as the soaking took effect & allowed the bending to happen until it all fitted.Once dry, the shape is fixed.

          Jim Michalak,Phil Bolger & others have seen others experience this & generally produce designs,like Ladybug, with gentle curves that will not cause one to take to strong drink!

          It does not require much deviation from the correct shape in stitch & glue construction to make it difficult to get some panels to fit & most builders will tell you that they do quite a deal of trimming to get the final fit.A small error at one end of a 14' panel translates into a large angle at the other end when trying to mate panels,so you should not feel bad if you had some difficulties....we've all been there.

          Your effort as a novice builder is inspiring & the beauty of working with wood,epoxy & fibreglass is that you can fix almost any mistake & the final boat will be just as good as one that went together easily....you should see some of the mistakes professionals make & manage to get out of...& no-one is any the wiser.

          Hell,I'm starting to sound like I'm an expert when really I'm an experienced mug learning from my own mistakes as I go along.

          Be warned though...wooden boat building is highly addictive!

          Cheers.

          Al.






          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Murray Stevens" <murrays@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "avsube" <raburke@> wrote:
          >
          > > Like Mick,I have ladybug plans & am just putting together the materials in order to get started soon.
          > >
          > > I have built & repaired quite a lot of boats & have decided to put Ladybug together sitting right way up starting with loosely stitching the bottom panel, which is chocked up to approximate rocker, to the bilge panels,then the side panels,then insert & stitch the bulkheads,transom & stem.There are no difficult cuves to have to bend plywood around with Ladybug.I've done it this way several times & find it gives me good control over keeping the hull fair & square until all seams are epoxy filleted & taped,& the epoxy fully cured,at which stage the hull is almost completely rigid & when turned over to do the outside seams,is easy to true up again before starting to fill seam gaps,fair & apply fibreglass tape.
          > >
          > > This is just my preference & there is no right or wrong way to do it...Jim suggests a slightly different sequence & some might start with the hull upside down,then turn it & do the inside seams.I prefer to do the inside seams first as they add significant stiffness to the early part of the build.Also when I tighten the plastic tie stiches,I put a wooden paddle pop stick between the panels next to each stitch which gives a small even gap between all panels & when the thickened epoxy fillet is formed on the inner seams,some epoxy oozes out to fill much of the outer seam gap.On turning the hull,this is then faired to a nice smooth radius(after filling any gaps that may still be there) ready for glass taping the seams or glassing the whole of the outside if that is what you want.
          > >
          > > Anyway, enough of me ...just be assured that you can always call for help here.I'm new to this particular forum but it already clear that there are lots of active & keen members to talk to.
          > >
          > > Al Burke
          >
          > Al,
          >
          > Jim's instructions have you building the Ladybug right side up as you propose to proceed. I was building mine that way but decided to flip it over after some email discussions with Chuck Leinweber. I truly believe that if I had tried to fit the bilge panels when it was right side up I'd have had an expensive bonfire instead of a boat.
          >
          > I had a devil of a time fitting the bilge panels. I don't know if I messed up measuring them or what but I needed gravity to help me get things fitted properly and after doing it I can't imagine doing it any other way. I spent hours and hours with the handplane slowly working away until they fit the gap nicely. I think it was much easier doing this at chest level than it would be if I'd had to reach under the boat at a fairly low level.
          >
          > I was a first time builder...of basically anything...and I think upside down is the best way for a beginner. It sure was for this beginner!!
          >
          > Maybe if you are having a hard time fitting the bilge panels with it right side up...roll it over carefully with some plywood screwed to the bulkheads to keep it solid so that the joints between the bulkheads and side panels don't crack...and try fitting the bilge panels with it upside down.
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Murray
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "simonfbroad" <simonfbroad@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi
          > > > I've spent the last couple of days wandering through this group looking for information.
          > > > I want to build a boat and learn to sail, and Jim's designs look reasonably simple (and inexpensive) to build - I was looking at the AF3 as being one of the simplest for a novice builder.
          > > >
          > > > Thing is, everyone here who seems to be sailing them appears to be sailing them on lakes in the U.S. or in sheltered bays.
          > > >
          > > > Are there any Queenslander's here sailing Michalak designs in the Morton Bay area, or up and down the coast? Could you?
          > > >
          > > > I tend to think the Pacific Ocean and Coral Sea might be a bit rougher than some of the lakes, not that I intend going more than a few hundred yards from shore, but would Jim's designs be OK in this region?
          > > >
          > > > Initially there are some very sheltered, and shallow, waters I can use, but as I gain experience and want to venture out into the bay, or up the coast, will I have to go and build another boat for that?
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • avsube
          Simon, Your obviously well organised & on the right track. Ross is building First Mate for his best mate in Mackay,hence the stop-start build as he was heavily
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 12, 2009
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            Simon,

            Your obviously well organised & on the right track.

            Ross is building First Mate for his best mate in Mackay,hence the stop-start build as he was heavily involved at the same time in building Periwinkle & other boats for clients,all the while trying to make a buck out of boat building,which is not easy especially when you see the effort he puts into his work...bloody first class!

            Email him & tell him I said to ask him email you a short video of him test-sailing Periwinkle on its maiden launch plus some still shots...absolutely stunning boat!...have a look & let me know what you think.

            Ross is also a great fan of Jim Michalak & secretly would like to build Piccup Pram...don't tell him I told you!

            Al.

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "simonfbroad" <simonfbroad@...> wrote:
            >
            > Al
            >
            > Thanks for your input, and some good advice, especially about your build technique.
            >
            > Currently I am building a small open boat - http://www.simplicityboats.com/summerbreeze2.htm
            > It's allowed my to make all those mistakes that everyone makes, and has been a big benefit in organizing my garage, tools, and workbench to make future projects much smoother.
            >
            > I'm using Bote-Cote 2-part epoxy on this build, and I have a copy of their book, it has been very useful. Boat Craft about 30 minute drive from where I work which is real handy.
            >
            > I've also placed an 'order' with my kids for Jim's book for my birthday later this month.
            >
            > I have been watching BaysideWoodenBoats too, I liked the look of Phoenix III but thought it too complex. When First Mate was announced I put off building my Summer Breeze to see how it looked, but Ross's build seemed to get pushed aside for the bigger and better Periwinkle. I've recommended Ross's tutorial on other forums too - he should really put it into a book.
            > If I build a larger open boat it would be Periwinkle or a Pathfinder, I think.
            >
            > One other really good resource is, of course, AABB [Australian Amateur Boat Builder] magazine (lover Ross's articals) as there is a lot of good information, ready help, and other peoples builds - it's what really talked me into building a boat instead of buying one, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
            >
            > Once I have built the Summer Breeze and started to learn the ropes, I want something with a small cabin. Take the family over to Bribie Island or down Pumicestone Passage for the day, or take myself or me and the wife up the coast with the ability to camp over night.
            >
            > I'd be keen to hear peoples evaluations of AF3 vs. Toon2 for this purpose.
            >
            > Simon.
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "avsube" <raburke@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Simon & Mick,
            > >
            > > I concur with Mick's suggestion to make a simple canoe first to learn the techniques involved with stitch & glue building.A simple Pirogue ( flat-bottomed canoe) will allow you to experince probably all the skills needed to make almost any size or design you may be thinking of building and remove the stress of confronting some previously unknown techniques as you progress with the canoe....and you'll be surprised how much you use & enjoy that little boat for years to come.
            > >
            > > There are many good canoe designs around and a design of a 14' pirogue is available as a free download at www.bateau.com in the USA...I made one many years ago & it is a beauty.They also have an excellent building tutorial on the site.
            > >
            > > Books to buy would have to include Jim Michalak's first book.
            > >
            > > Also get a copy ( about $5) of "Boatbuilding with Bote-Cote" by Boatcoat Pacific in Brisbane....www.boatcraft.com.au...while this discusses all the boat-building products they make ( & they are excellent...I have used their 2- part epoxy) it is also one of the best basic boat-building catalogues I have read.Loaded with god tips.
            > >
            > > Plus do yourself a huge favour & look at
            > > www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au.This will take you to a site by Ross Lillistone who used to build traditional & modern wooden boats at Wynnum/Manly near you(Simon) & recently re-located to Esk.Ross has documented the build of a number of his own & other designs & done it in a photo format that is in itself a very thorough tutorial on stitch & glue building.
            > >
            > > Look particularly at the build of his "First Mate" design ( Mick) as it is very similar to building something like "Ladybug".I have to confess here that Ross is also a mate & a thorough gentlemen.
            > >
            > > Like Mick,I have ladybug plans & am just putting together the materials in order to get started soon.
            > >
            > > I have built & repaired quite a lot of boats & have decided to put Ladybug together sitting right way up starting with loosely stitching the bottom panel, which is chocked up to approximate rocker, to the bilge panels,then the side panels,then insert & stitch the bulkheads,transom & stem.There are no difficult cuves to have to bend plywood around with Ladybug.I've done it this way several times & find it gives me good control over keeping the hull fair & square until all seams are epoxy filleted & taped,& the epoxy fully cured,at which stage the hull is almost completely rigid & when turned over to do the outside seams,is easy to true up again before starting to fill seam gaps,fair & apply fibreglass tape.
            > >
            > > This is just my preference & there is no right or wrong way to do it...Jim suggests a slightly different sequence & some might start with the hull upside down,then turn it & do the inside seams.I prefer to do the inside seams first as they add significant stiffness to the early part of the build.Also when I tighten the plastic tie stiches,I put a wooden paddle pop stick between the panels next to each stitch which gives a small even gap between all panels & when the thickened epoxy fillet is formed on the inner seams,some epoxy oozes out to fill much of the outer seam gap.On turning the hull,this is then faired to a nice smooth radius(after filling any gaps that may still be there) ready for glass taping the seams or glassing the whole of the outside if that is what you want.
            > >
            > > Anyway, enough of me ...just be assured that you can always call for help here.I'm new to this particular forum but it already clear that there are lots of active & keen members to talk to.
            > >
            > > Al Burke
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "simonfbroad" <simonfbroad@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi
            > > > I've spent the last couple of days wandering through this group looking for information.
            > > > I want to build a boat and learn to sail, and Jim's designs look reasonably simple (and inexpensive) to build - I was looking at the AF3 as being one of the simplest for a novice builder.
            > > >
            > > > Thing is, everyone here who seems to be sailing them appears to be sailing them on lakes in the U.S. or in sheltered bays.
            > > >
            > > > Are there any Queenslander's here sailing Michalak designs in the Morton Bay area, or up and down the coast? Could you?
            > > >
            > > > I tend to think the Pacific Ocean and Coral Sea might be a bit rougher than some of the lakes, not that I intend going more than a few hundred yards from shore, but would Jim's designs be OK in this region?
            > > >
            > > > Initially there are some very sheltered, and shallow, waters I can use, but as I gain experience and want to venture out into the bay, or up the coast, will I have to go and build another boat for that?
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • daschultz2000
            I suggest searching this forum for input from the designer re use of any of his designs in less protected waters. I also plan on something pretty simple first.
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 12, 2009
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              I suggest searching this forum for input from the designer re use of any of his designs in less protected waters.

              I also plan on something pretty simple first. I'm very much take at the moment with Hobie's Mirage pedal drive, and am thinking to build a LarsBoat or even simpler pirogue "powered" by the Mirage as a first boat. My beautiful wife really enjoys kayaking, but because I'm 6'3" and 260lbs, I don't get along with the current plastic kayaks to well, so something homebuilt will provide great utility.

              If I were going to build an AF3 for service in ocean use, I would seriously consider taking the wood thicknesses up a size on the sides, and probably just double the bottom thickness. I would pay careful attention to plywood butt joints, using multiple glass layers, and not remove any wood. I would at least use plywood to laminate butt joints, and avoid using lumber with the grain running parallel to the butt joint.

              Don
            • graeme19121984
              ... G day Simon, space might be limiting for over night camping. Max said, rather than another AF3, he d build one of the open designs with flotation/storage
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 15, 2009
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                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "simonfbroad" <simonfbroad@...> wrote:
                > Once I have built the Summer Breeze and started to learn the ropes, I want something with a small cabin. Take the family over to Bribie Island or down Pumicestone Passage for the day, or take myself or me and the wife up the coast with the ability to camp over night.

                > I'd be keen to hear peoples evaluations of AF3 vs. Toon2 for this purpose.

                G'day Simon,

                space might be limiting for over night camping. Max said, rather than another AF3, he'd build one of the open designs with flotation/storage at either end for that, simply due to more useable space for the size.

                There's a Fatcat builder over at Shorncliff, I think - may even be launched already...

                Graeme
              • Joe Tribulato
                You guys in Australia should get together and have a messabout or a raid, or both. I am sure it is happening now and then but it would be nice to hear about it
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 16, 2009
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                  You guys in Australia should get together and have a messabout or a raid, or both. I am sure it is happening now and then but it would be nice to hear about it here.

                  Joe T
                • simonfbroad
                  ... Very good idea - in fact I started a new Yahoo Group [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moretonbaysailing/] the other day to encourage just that sort of thing
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 16, 2009
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                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You guys in Australia should get together and have a messabout or a raid, or both. I am sure it is happening now and then but it would be nice to hear about it here.
                    >
                    > Joe T
                    >

                    Very good idea - in fact I started a new Yahoo Group [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moretonbaysailing/%5d the other day to encourage just that sort of thing in this area.

                    Of course I need to build a boat and learn to sail first - but these groups can take a while to get started and active.
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