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Re: Robbsboat observations and issues?

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  • Alan
    ... things ... the ... rest ... there ... completely ... or ... it ... Thanks Graeme! What a brilliant description! You re not a technical writer by any
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 1, 2008
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      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"
      <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Alan,
      >
      > Wileys are a type of window, port, or vent if you like, that are
      > pretty simple to construct and give a weatherproof, quite seaworthy
      > way to allow ventilation and light at the same time as keeping
      things
      > dry from windblown rain or spray.
      >
      > On the inside, and at the sides of a rectangular or square opening
      > there is an inclined "bracket".
      >
      > On the inside, along the bottom there is a low sided channel with
      > drainage holes let through the bulkhead.
      >
      > You need two wedges - split to give a bit of spring if they're
      > wooden.
      >
      > The glass or plastic window pane is wedged from behind up against
      the
      > opening to close it. If you want it open, but want to keep out rain
      > or spray then the wedges are removed and the glass is allowed to
      rest
      > back on the brackets and then the wedges are inserted to jam it
      there
      > so it doesn't bang around.
      >
      > If you want full ventilation then you just take the glass
      completely
      > out and stow it elsewhere. The opening can be fly screened outside
      or
      > you can have a screen and use it like the glass pane alone, or use
      it
      > at the same time as the glass pane by inserting them both with the
      > wedge inserted between them.
      >
      >
      > Phil Bolger shows them on some of his designs
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Wiley%20Port%20%26%
      > 20Bolger%20hatch/
      >
      > HTH
      >
      > Graeme
      >
      Thanks Graeme! What a brilliant description! You're not a technical
      writer by any chance? You produced an amazingly clear picture of how
      these work.
      BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for anything
      other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be able
      to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the bulkhead
      at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
      monkey...
      Cheers,
      Alan.
    • Nels
      ... Hi Alan, That s my feeling as well. So I am thinking of installing the hatch on an extended forward section of the house. Imagine the windshield being
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 1, 2008
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        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Graeme
        > >
        > Thanks Graeme! What a brilliant description! You're not a technical
        > writer by any chance? You produced an amazingly clear picture of how
        > these work.
        > BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for anything
        > other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be able
        > to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the bulkhead
        > at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
        > monkey...
        > Cheers,
        > Alan.

        Hi Alan,

        That's my feeling as well. So I am thinking of installing the hatch on
        an extended forward section of the house. Imagine the "windshield"
        being more vertical than on your model. Hopefully that would etend the
        cabin and allow enough room to allow for a hatch right behind the top of
        the windshield and still enough space for the sliding hatch runners
        behind it.

        Another option I considered was full-length sliding hatch runners and
        two sliding hatches, but that is more complicated.

        Of course a third option is to have a slot top which if sailing on
        sheltered waters may be the simplest of all and give the best air flow.

        There is a word doc in the files "Hatches slot covers doc" giving some
        ideas from Jim - including vents similar to the wiley port. A wiley vent
        is the same except all made of wood in one piece with no removable parts
        or wedges.

        Nels



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      • graeme19121984
        Thanks Alan. When I first encountered the wiley windows I didn t quite get how they were put together, so some of my belaboured visualising of them must have
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 3, 2008
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          Thanks Alan. When I first encountered the wiley windows I didn't
          quite get how they were put together, so some of my belaboured
          visualising of them must have stuck.

          The mast is in the way a bit, I heard that, but didn't think about
          acccessing bulky gear.

          I guess that forward of the mast, the hatch would have to be quite
          narrow in any case. Pet monkey? - how about one of them extendable
          grabber thingos. Now, is that mast foot really a problem? - it would
          be a shame if that space up front was inaccessable to store the
          bedding or such like.

          Graeme


          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
          > clear picture of how
          > these work.
          > BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for anything
          > other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be
          able
          > to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the
          bulkhead
          > at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
          > monkey...
        • Alan
          Hi, The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40 . But subtract approx 3 each side for frame width leaves 34 . Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 3, 2008
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            Hi,
            The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40".
            But subtract approx 3" each side for frame width leaves 34".
            Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3" square-section.
            Leaves 15 to 16" opening each side of mast-plenty for access thru
            for storage, but not to get a body thru. Opening is around 20" high,
            so on your side you would be able to reach into this compartment ok,
            to put and get stuff.
            Cheers,
            Alan.
            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"
            <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Thanks Alan. When I first encountered the wiley windows I didn't
            > quite get how they were put together, so some of my belaboured
            > visualising of them must have stuck.
            >
            > The mast is in the way a bit, I heard that, but didn't think about
            > acccessing bulky gear.
            >
            > I guess that forward of the mast, the hatch would have to be quite
            > narrow in any case. Pet monkey? - how about one of them extendable
            > grabber thingos. Now, is that mast foot really a problem? - it
            would
            > be a shame if that space up front was inaccessable to store the
            > bedding or such like.
            >
            > Graeme
            >
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@> wrote:
            > > clear picture of how
            > > these work.
            > > BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for
            anything
            > > other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be
            > able
            > > to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the
            > bulkhead
            > > at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
            > > monkey...
            >
          • Nels
            ... Thanks Alan, That is about the same as with Paradox - but how you get to that forward optional opening is beyond me. (See 2nd sketch)
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 4, 2008
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              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              > The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40".
              > But subtract approx 3" each side for frame width leaves 34".
              > Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3" square-section.
              > Leaves 15 to 16" opening each side of mast-plenty for access thru
              > for storage, but not to get a body thru. Opening is around 20" high,
              > so on your side you would be able to reach into this compartment ok,
              > to put and get stuff.
              > Cheers,
              > Alan.

              Thanks Alan,

              That is about the same as with Paradox - but how you get to that
              forward "optional opening" is beyond me. (See 2nd sketch)

              http://www.microcruising.com/Sketch1.htm

              Probably it is filled with flotation on PB anyway? An old kayak trick
              is to attach lines to your storage bags and shove them into the bow
              with a paddle leaving the string in the cockpit to help retrieve them.

              In the above sketches it shows that the tack of the sail is much
              further aft - just ahead of the mast almost like a standing lug -
              compared to the PB plans. So of course this locates the CE of the sail
              further aft as well so I was thinking the mast on PB would have to
              move forward to make up for that if I went with the Paradox rig design.

              But nope - I think it stays where it is - if one uses the larger
              rudder blade as on Paradox. (Notice it has a boarding step added on.)

              Nels
            • Alan
              Hi Nels, More info-open this can-of-worms at your own risk! RB mast rakes back, I measure it at 8 back where the yard crosses, relative to the deck-entry
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 5, 2008
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                Hi Nels,
                More info-open this can-of-worms at your own risk!
                RB mast rakes back, I measure it at 8" back where the yard crosses,
                relative to the deck-entry position. So placing it vertical instead
                will move the sail by that amount. JM has mentioned changing mast-
                rake to setup balance in several of his commentaries on various
                boats. The attachment-point of the halyard to the yard can also be
                varied of course.
                RB rudder has 2sqft immersed area, Paradox looks to be more like
                3.2 or so, =at least 50% more, so this will shift CLR back...but
                RB is longer, so its rudder will be more effective probably.
                RB does not have an immersed forefoot like Paradox...
                One thing leads to another, leads to another.
                Hope this helps, or does it make it worse?!
                Cheers,
                Alan.
                BTW, thought I remember you were thinking of building 'Caroline'?

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > > The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40".
                > > But subtract approx 3" each side for frame width leaves 34".
                > > Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3" square-section.
                > > Leaves 15 to 16" opening each side of mast-plenty for access thru
                > > for storage, but not to get a body thru. Opening is around 20"
                high,
                > > so on your side you would be able to reach into this compartment
                ok,
                > > to put and get stuff.
                > > Cheers,
                > > Alan.
                >
                > Thanks Alan,
                >
                > That is about the same as with Paradox - but how you get to that
                > forward "optional opening" is beyond me. (See 2nd sketch)
                >
                > http://www.microcruising.com/Sketch1.htm
                >
                > Probably it is filled with flotation on PB anyway? An old kayak
                trick
                > is to attach lines to your storage bags and shove them into the bow
                > with a paddle leaving the string in the cockpit to help retrieve
                them.
                >
                > In the above sketches it shows that the tack of the sail is much
                > further aft - just ahead of the mast almost like a standing lug -
                > compared to the PB plans. So of course this locates the CE of the
                sail
                > further aft as well so I was thinking the mast on PB would have to
                > move forward to make up for that if I went with the Paradox rig
                design.
                >
                > But nope - I think it stays where it is - if one uses the larger
                > rudder blade as on Paradox. (Notice it has a boarding step added
                on.)
                >
                > Nels
                >
              • Nels
                ... Maybe just built to plan right? I am really curious regarding Matt s chine runners concept, and think the larger rudder area plays into it. One can
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 5, 2008
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                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Nels,
                  > More info-open this can-of-worms at your own risk!
                  > RB mast rakes back, I measure it at 8" back where the yard crosses,
                  > relative to the deck-entry position. So placing it vertical instead
                  > will move the sail by that amount. JM has mentioned changing mast-
                  > rake to setup balance in several of his commentaries on various
                  > boats. The attachment-point of the halyard to the yard can also be
                  > varied of course.
                  > RB rudder has 2sqft immersed area, Paradox looks to be more like
                  > 3.2 or so, =at least 50% more, so this will shift CLR back...but
                  > RB is longer, so its rudder will be more effective probably.
                  > RB does not have an immersed forefoot like Paradox...
                  > One thing leads to another, leads to another.
                  > Hope this helps, or does it make it worse?!
                  > Cheers,
                  > Alan.
                  > BTW, thought I remember you were thinking of building 'Caroline'?

                  Maybe just built to plan right?

                  I am really curious regarding Matt's chine runners concept, and think
                  the larger rudder area plays into it. One can probably cut it down if
                  the experiment doesn't work, saw off the runners and add the leeboard.
                  At which point you find out what you did wrong and wished you'd left
                  them.

                  Also very intrigued with the roller furling sail rig.

                  Also my present location favors a light shallow boat, with some shelter
                  in the fall when it gets cooler and the sand bars appear.

                  Yes I was considering Caroline as well as a couple others like Eisbox
                  and Jukebox3 both with small doghouses.

                  Have never built anything stitch and glue so also have Tween plans along
                  with the wood to maybe start off with it. It has a lateen rig which also
                  interests me, and would make a good dink for a larger boat.

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/tween/index.htm

                  There are others too...

                  http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2003/1015/index.htm#Birdwat\
                  cher%20Lugsail

                  (cursor down to Batto)

                  or...

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/lhf17/index.htm

                  Actually Jim made a typo in the catalogue for the name - it should have
                  been LFH17:-)

                  Nels



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