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Re: Robbsboat observations and issues?

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  • Alan
    ... aware ... If ... Does ... your ... anchoring. ... Hi, I m one of those who has plans... I ve considered the same problem and also wonder whether the
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 14, 2008
      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango" <ccurtis-keyword-
      sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:
      >
      > I was thinking about Robbsboat the other day (again). She is
      > essentially Jim's version of the very capable sailboat "Paradox". I
      > know Jim has sold some plans (at least two copies!), but I'm not
      aware
      > of any being built.
      >
      > Can anybody shed light on this "problem".
      >
      > On a boat like Robbsboat, there is no safe way to get to the bow.
      If
      > you can't easily get to the bow, do you anchor from the stern?
      Does
      > not anchoring from the stern require a bridle to "kinda" control
      your
      > angle to the wind?
      >
      > This may be a non issue for those with more experience with
      anchoring.
      > If anybody has a solution, please speak up!
      >
      > Chris Curtis
      >
      Hi,
      I'm one of those who has plans...
      I've considered the same 'problem' and also wonder whether the
      furled sail-bundle might cause difficulties when dropped on the
      cabin-roof (no side decks!).Even if it could be secured there,
      it is then quite high-up which is not good...
      I've thought that making the front window slope similar to that
      of the rear might allow an agile person to climb to the bow-deck
      from the cabin, whereas that would be quite difficult with the
      long slope as drawn on the plans. Also a full-length slot-top
      would make it easier, but make the boat much less secure in rough
      conditions as you wouldn't then be able to have a solid hatch,
      unless perhaps TWO hatches, hinged in the middle?
      Maybe these sorts of questions are the reason none have been built?
      One 'improvement' might be to build an entirely different cabin,
      with conventional side-decks, but is it then still a 'Robbsboat'?
      Certainly it would be much more complex to build.
      Cheers,
      Alan.
    • Nels
      ... g. ... For anchor handling, you might want to look at this file from the Paradox Group:
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 16, 2008
        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
        g.
        > > If anybody has a solution, please speak up!
        > >
        > > Chris Curtis
        > >
        > Hi,
        > I'm one of those who has plans...
        > I've considered the same 'problem' and also wonder whether the
        > furled sail-bundle might cause difficulties when dropped on the
        > cabin-roof (no side decks!).Even if it could be secured there,
        > it is then quite high-up which is not good...
        > I've thought that making the front window slope similar to that
        > of the rear might allow an agile person to climb to the bow-deck
        > from the cabin, whereas that would be quite difficult with the
        > long slope as drawn on the plans. Also a full-length slot-top
        > would make it easier, but make the boat much less secure in rough
        > conditions as you wouldn't then be able to have a solid hatch,
        > unless perhaps TWO hatches, hinged in the middle?
        > Maybe these sorts of questions are the reason none have been built?
        > One 'improvement' might be to build an entirely different cabin,
        > with conventional side-decks, but is it then still a 'Robbsboat'?
        > Certainly it would be much more complex to build.
        > Cheers,
        > Alan.

        For anchor handling, you might want to look at this file from the
        Paradox Group:

        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paradoxbuilders/files/Bow%20Fairlead/>

        If I were to build Robbsboat I would have the windshield so it opened
        - probably to the side like I think Caroline is doing on her boat.
        Then I would have a cleat near the opening and the fairlead on the bow
        as Glen describes in the above file. You could set and release the
        rode with a boat hook.

        Remember that Robbsoboat is designed for inshore use so mostly it
        would be run right up on shore in a sheltered cove. Maybe have a line
        tied to a tree and then the hull just afloat beyond the weed/bug line.

        Perhaps the sail bundle could be secured to one side of the hatchway
        or on hooks in some crafty way? I would not want to add side decks as
        they rob you of comfort when sitting sideways below decks.

        I would be tempted to build with lighter scantlings than shown on the
        plans. 1/4 or 3/8" plywood doubled on the bottom.

        Sven Yrvind's roller system would be handy if one wanted to roll the
        boat right up above the water.

        Nels
      • sierraclb1728
        Here s one possibility: One could run a line through a block at or near the bow. Both ends of the line would run back to the stern by whatever route kept them
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 18, 2008
          Here's one possibility:
          One could run a line through a block at or near the bow. Both
          ends of the line would run back to the stern by whatever route kept
          them out of the way while under way. The line ends would be tied to
          each other, making a big loop (you can see now where this is
          going). At the anchorage, a buoy could be picked up at the stern,
          or an anchor dropped at the stern, and connected to the "big loop"
          of line running fore and aft. Then this circular line would be
          pulled through the forward block until, presto!, the anchor chain or
          buoy is at the bow. In the morning, reverse the process.

          Josh in California.


          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango" <ccurtis-keyword-
          sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was thinking about Robbsboat the other day (again). She is
          > essentially Jim's version of the very capable sailboat "Paradox".
          I
          > know Jim has sold some plans (at least two copies!), but I'm not
          aware
          > of any being built.
          >
          > Can anybody shed light on this "problem".
          >
          > On a boat like Robbsboat, there is no safe way to get to the
          bow. If
          > you can't easily get to the bow, do you anchor from the stern?
          Does
          > not anchoring from the stern require a bridle to "kinda" control
          your
          > angle to the wind?
          >
          > This may be a non issue for those with more experience with
          anchoring.
          > If anybody has a solution, please speak up!
          >
          > Chris Curtis
          >
        • Wayne Farris
          ... ... Where can I see the details on this roller system? Wayne
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 19, 2008
            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@> wrote:

            <SNIP>
            > Sven Yrvind's roller system would be handy if one wanted to roll the
            > boat right up above the water.
            >
            > Nels
            >

            Where can I see the details on this roller system?

            Wayne
          • Nels
            ... Now that we have solved the anchoring challenge I have three more thoughts/questions. Does Robbsboat have a tiller system like Paradox with a steering line
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 19, 2008
              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sierraclb1728" <josh1728@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here's one possibility:
              > One could run a line through a block at or near the bow. Both
              > ends of the line would run back to the stern by whatever route kept
              > them out of the way while under way. The line ends would be tied to
              > each other, making a big loop (you can see now where this is
              > going). At the anchorage, a buoy could be picked up at the stern,
              > or an anchor dropped at the stern, and connected to the "big loop"
              > of line running fore and aft. Then this circular line would be
              > pulled through the forward block until, presto!, the anchor chain or
              > buoy is at the bow. In the morning, reverse the process.
              >
              > Josh in California.

              Now that we have solved the anchoring challenge I have three more
              thoughts/questions.

              Does Robbsboat have a tiller system like Paradox with a steering line
              around the hull inside? Effortless tweaking while remaining facing
              forward in a small lounge chair?

              Adjusting the leeboard from inside should be no problem.

              How does one prevent water leakage down the mast and into the hull?
              Would a deck mounted mast supported by two solid braces work, like on
              Dave and Mindy's Little Cruiser - which also has a pivot to lower the
              mast quickly?

              Also having two light battens installed on the sail at both reef
              points, allowing the sail to drop and be guided onto the boom with
              lazy jacks. This would negate having to use reef ties to secure the
              reef, but have one line to pull it down. Maybe called "slab reefing" -
              not sure. This way one could remain below when reefing.

              I have uploaded a file showing the two methods. One explained by Jim
              Michalak and the battened design that Bolger has drawn for a much
              larger hull.

              The file is called:

              Balanced Lug Notes and Ideas

              The more I think about this design the more I see it as a really fun
              boat! Much quicker and easier to build than Paradox and a viable
              option if one stays in sheltered water.

              Fold up lounge chair, air mattress, and backpacking equipment.

              Nels
            • joe_mapango
              Hello All, and Nels. All good points on Robbsboat. See comments below. ... I ll have to review the plans (I m in Yellowstone now, taking some time off). If
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 19, 2008
                Hello All, and Nels.

                All good points on Robbsboat. See comments below.

                > Now that we have solved the anchoring challenge I have three more
                > thoughts/questions.
                >
                > Does Robbsboat have a tiller system like Paradox with a steering line

                I'll have to review the plans (I'm in Yellowstone now, taking some
                time off). If I remember correctly, the tiller is like "Philsboat"
                in that it enters the stern and has a tiler that enters the
                pilothouse/cabin.

                > around the hull inside? Effortless tweaking while remaining facing
                > forward in a small lounge chair?

                The only difference I see between the paradox steering setup and
                Robbsboat/Philsboat is the omission of the cable around the cabin.
                Having plans for all the boats in question, I don't see any reason it
                could not be added. I have often thought of adding it to my
                Philsboat, but then I realize I just need to finish it first!

                >
                > Adjusting the leeboard from inside should be no problem.
                >

                Why the leeboard? I know that would be how Jim designed it, but if
                ANY of Jims designs screams for CR's, the Robbsboat is it. After
                reviewing both sets of plans, they are identical in so many ways.
                Now, I'm not saying that Paradox is not the superior boat, but I am
                saying they are about as close as you can get. Same basic weight,
                WLL, Hull length, draft, beam, design, sail rig and placement.

                > How does one prevent water leakage down the mast and into the hull?

                The way I would solve that is to have a "collar" stick up on deck.
                You could use some type of water/electric ABC/PVC piping with the mast
                fitting snugly (yes, even the squared would be OK!) inside. To keep
                water out, use some 1" to 2" wide rubber strip (intertube cut up)
                wrapped "bandage like around the mast and collar. The only real issue
                I can see is getting the mast to be snug in the collar to keep the
                mast from working in it's hole and loosening up.

                > Would a deck mounted mast supported by two solid braces work, like on
                > Dave and Mindy's Little Cruiser - which also has a pivot to lower the
                > mast quickly?
                >

                Great idea, and of done properly, you get much more easy to use space
                below under the front windshield. Another 3+ feet in fact, without a
                big fat 3" stick right down the middle.

                I'm kinda partial to a JM type tabernacle. Also sealed from water
                egress via the mast.

                > Also having two light battens installed on the sail at both reef
                > points, allowing the sail to drop and be guided onto the boom with
                > lazy jacks. This would negate having to use reef ties to secure the
                > reef, but have one line to pull it down. Maybe called "slab reefing" -
                > not sure. This way one could remain below when reefing.

                Ah, does the Robbsboat call for a junk rig? I think possibly so.
                But then again, I have a junk "thing".
                >
                > I have uploaded a file showing the two methods. One explained by Jim
                > Michalak and the battened design that Bolger has drawn for a much
                > larger hull.
                >
                > The file is called:
                >
                > Balanced Lug Notes and Ideas
                >
                > The more I think about this design the more I see it as a really fun
                > boat! Much quicker and easier to build than Paradox and a viable
                > option if one stays in sheltered water.
                >

                I think a useful topic would be what the differences are between these
                two boats as they are close together than far apart. I agree she
                would be a quicker build with a far smaller "investment" needed in
                time and money. I also think she would be close in performance also.
                It may be possible that Robbsboat would be slightly faster in very
                light airs, assuming PB is correct about PoS, etc. Robbsboat being
                more slabsided, having a flying bow, and very close shear and side
                forms.

                I have often thought of building RB. When I do, the anchoring issue
                always comes to my mind. Lastly, put Jim's lugged Mikesboat rig on
                Robbsboat. Now you can put in a reasonable front hatch, a large
                anchorwell, AND you get a Mizzen (who doesn't love a Mizzen?). Now
                that said, the boat is getting more optimized for real use and camping
                than just a dayboat. Still, the possibilities are interesting.

                > Fold up lounge chair, air mattress, and backpacking equipment.
                >
                > Nels
                >
                Thanks for uploading the Lug sail thoughts!


                Chris Curtis
              • Nels
                Hi Chris, Is Old Faithful still staying faithful? My further impressions - in no particular order. I was thinking of a RB built lighter than the plans show -
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 19, 2008
                  Hi Chris,

                  Is Old Faithful still staying faithful?

                  My further impressions - in no particular order.

                  I was thinking of a RB built lighter than the plans show - but that is
                  just my preference. I don't think it requires 1/2" plywood except for on
                  the bottom. So it would be un-ballasted and therefor I am not sure chine
                  runners would be effective, if built that lightweight. Maybe put one on
                  just the side opposite the leeboard and test it out:-)

                  Also I don't think the extra cordage with a junk sail is that necessary
                  on a sail this size. Having a bit of twist in the sail might be
                  advantageous when hit with a gust of wind. So was thinking the battened
                  lug would be a good compromise.

                  Add some ballast and chine runners would work. Move the mast forward a
                  bit and add a mizzen would also work and it would likely handle heavier
                  weather conditions better than my version.

                  But I can envision just some casual gunk-holing - one step up from
                  canoeing.

                  Nels


                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango"
                  <ccurtis-keyword-sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All, and Nels.
                  >
                  > All good points on Robbsboat. See comments below.
                  >
                  > > Now that we have solved the anchoring challenge I have three more
                  > > thoughts/questions.
                  > >
                  > > Does Robbsboat have a tiller system like Paradox with a steering
                  line
                  >
                  > I'll have to review the plans (I'm in Yellowstone now, taking some
                  > time off). If I remember correctly, the tiller is like "Philsboat"
                  > in that it enters the stern and has a tiler that enters the
                  > pilothouse/cabin.
                  >
                  > > around the hull inside? Effortless tweaking while remaining facing
                  > > forward in a small lounge chair?
                  >
                  > The only difference I see between the paradox steering setup and
                  > Robbsboat/Philsboat is the omission of the cable around the cabin.
                  > Having plans for all the boats in question, I don't see any reason it
                  > could not be added. I have often thought of adding it to my
                  > Philsboat, but then I realize I just need to finish it first!
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Adjusting the leeboard from inside should be no problem.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Why the leeboard? I know that would be how Jim designed it, but if
                  > ANY of Jims designs screams for CR's, the Robbsboat is it. After
                  > reviewing both sets of plans, they are identical in so many ways.
                  > Now, I'm not saying that Paradox is not the superior boat, but I am
                  > saying they are about as close as you can get. Same basic weight,
                  > WLL, Hull length, draft, beam, design, sail rig and placement.
                  >
                  > > How does one prevent water leakage down the mast and into the hull?
                  >
                  > The way I would solve that is to have a "collar" stick up on deck.
                  > You could use some type of water/electric ABC/PVC piping with the mast
                  > fitting snugly (yes, even the squared would be OK!) inside. To keep
                  > water out, use some 1" to 2" wide rubber strip (intertube cut up)
                  > wrapped "bandage like around the mast and collar. The only real issue
                  > I can see is getting the mast to be snug in the collar to keep the
                  > mast from working in it's hole and loosening up.
                  >
                  > > Would a deck mounted mast supported by two solid braces work, like
                  on
                  > > Dave and Mindy's Little Cruiser - which also has a pivot to lower
                  the
                  > > mast quickly?
                  > >
                  >
                  > Great idea, and of done properly, you get much more easy to use space
                  > below under the front windshield. Another 3+ feet in fact, without a
                  > big fat 3" stick right down the middle.
                  >
                  > I'm kinda partial to a JM type tabernacle. Also sealed from water
                  > egress via the mast.
                  >
                  > > Also having two light battens installed on the sail at both reef
                  > > points, allowing the sail to drop and be guided onto the boom with
                  > > lazy jacks. This would negate having to use reef ties to secure the
                  > > reef, but have one line to pull it down. Maybe called "slab reefing"
                  -
                  > > not sure. This way one could remain below when reefing.
                  >
                  > Ah, does the Robbsboat call for a junk rig? I think possibly so.
                  > But then again, I have a junk "thing".
                  > >
                  > > I have uploaded a file showing the two methods. One explained by Jim
                  > > Michalak and the battened design that Bolger has drawn for a much
                  > > larger hull.
                  > >
                  > > The file is called:
                  > >
                  > > Balanced Lug Notes and Ideas
                  > >
                  > > The more I think about this design the more I see it as a really fun
                  > > boat! Much quicker and easier to build than Paradox and a viable
                  > > option if one stays in sheltered water.
                  > >
                  >
                  > I think a useful topic would be what the differences are between these
                  > two boats as they are close together than far apart. I agree she
                  > would be a quicker build with a far smaller "investment" needed in
                  > time and money. I also think she would be close in performance also.
                  > It may be possible that Robbsboat would be slightly faster in very
                  > light airs, assuming PB is correct about PoS, etc. Robbsboat being
                  > more slabsided, having a flying bow, and very close shear and side
                  > forms.
                  >
                  > I have often thought of building RB. When I do, the anchoring issue
                  > always comes to my mind. Lastly, put Jim's lugged Mikesboat rig on
                  > Robbsboat. Now you can put in a reasonable front hatch, a large
                  > anchorwell, AND you get a Mizzen (who doesn't love a Mizzen?). Now
                  > that said, the boat is getting more optimized for real use and camping
                  > than just a dayboat. Still, the possibilities are interesting.
                  >
                  > > Fold up lounge chair, air mattress, and backpacking equipment.
                  > >
                  > > Nels
                  > >
                  > Thanks for uploading the Lug sail thoughts!
                  >
                  >
                  > Chris Curtis
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • joe_mapango
                  Yes, Old Faithful is still doing her thing. In many ways, the Gieser was a lesser event than the rest of the park. It s a beautiful place. Anyway, I agree on
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 19, 2008
                    Yes, Old Faithful is still doing her thing. In many ways, the Gieser
                    was a lesser event than the rest of the park. It's a beautiful place.

                    Anyway, I agree on the lighter scantlings. I'd go with 3/8th. 1/4
                    would be pushing it for some of the larger areas (I think). If you
                    were not going to ballast her, you would/should reduce the sheer on
                    the bottom. If not, You'd end up with a 11 foot waterline. I'd
                    stick with the sheer as designed, and use batteries, water, and
                    lead/steel plate to get the proper weight. Then you'd end up with a
                    bottom almost exactly like the Paradox. The CR's should work just
                    fine (there goes the voice of experience!!!).

                    Setup unballasted for "a step above canoing" is a great way to go for
                    that use. I tend the think of Robbsboat in my environment. Very
                    large lake, lots of large waves at times.


                    Thanks for the comments!


                    Chris Curtis



                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Chris,
                    >
                    > Is Old Faithful still staying faithful?
                    >
                    > My further impressions - in no particular order.
                    >
                    > I was thinking of a RB built lighter than the plans show - but that is
                    > just my preference. I don't think it requires 1/2" plywood except for on
                    > the bottom. So it would be un-ballasted and therefor I am not sure chine
                    > runners would be effective, if built that lightweight. Maybe put one on
                    > just the side opposite the leeboard and test it out:-)
                    >
                    > Also I don't think the extra cordage with a junk sail is that necessary
                    > on a sail this size. Having a bit of twist in the sail might be
                    > advantageous when hit with a gust of wind. So was thinking the battened
                    > lug would be a good compromise.
                    >
                    > Add some ballast and chine runners would work. Move the mast forward a
                    > bit and add a mizzen would also work and it would likely handle heavier
                    > weather conditions better than my version.
                    >
                    > But I can envision just some casual gunk-holing - one step up from
                    > canoeing.
                    >
                    > Nels
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango"
                    > <ccurtis-keyword-sailboat.a927b9@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello All, and Nels.
                    > >
                    > > All good points on Robbsboat. See comments below.
                    > >
                    > > > Now that we have solved the anchoring challenge I have three more
                    > > > thoughts/questions.
                    > > >
                    > > > Does Robbsboat have a tiller system like Paradox with a steering
                    > line
                    > >
                    > > I'll have to review the plans (I'm in Yellowstone now, taking some
                    > > time off). If I remember correctly, the tiller is like "Philsboat"
                    > > in that it enters the stern and has a tiler that enters the
                    > > pilothouse/cabin.
                    > >
                    > > > around the hull inside? Effortless tweaking while remaining facing
                    > > > forward in a small lounge chair?
                    > >
                    > > The only difference I see between the paradox steering setup and
                    > > Robbsboat/Philsboat is the omission of the cable around the cabin.
                    > > Having plans for all the boats in question, I don't see any reason it
                    > > could not be added. I have often thought of adding it to my
                    > > Philsboat, but then I realize I just need to finish it first!
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Adjusting the leeboard from inside should be no problem.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > Why the leeboard? I know that would be how Jim designed it, but if
                    > > ANY of Jims designs screams for CR's, the Robbsboat is it. After
                    > > reviewing both sets of plans, they are identical in so many ways.
                    > > Now, I'm not saying that Paradox is not the superior boat, but I am
                    > > saying they are about as close as you can get. Same basic weight,
                    > > WLL, Hull length, draft, beam, design, sail rig and placement.
                    > >
                    > > > How does one prevent water leakage down the mast and into the hull?
                    > >
                    > > The way I would solve that is to have a "collar" stick up on deck.
                    > > You could use some type of water/electric ABC/PVC piping with the mast
                    > > fitting snugly (yes, even the squared would be OK!) inside. To keep
                    > > water out, use some 1" to 2" wide rubber strip (intertube cut up)
                    > > wrapped "bandage like around the mast and collar. The only real issue
                    > > I can see is getting the mast to be snug in the collar to keep the
                    > > mast from working in it's hole and loosening up.
                    > >
                    > > > Would a deck mounted mast supported by two solid braces work, like
                    > on
                    > > > Dave and Mindy's Little Cruiser - which also has a pivot to lower
                    > the
                    > > > mast quickly?
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > Great idea, and of done properly, you get much more easy to use space
                    > > below under the front windshield. Another 3+ feet in fact, without a
                    > > big fat 3" stick right down the middle.
                    > >
                    > > I'm kinda partial to a JM type tabernacle. Also sealed from water
                    > > egress via the mast.
                    > >
                    > > > Also having two light battens installed on the sail at both reef
                    > > > points, allowing the sail to drop and be guided onto the boom with
                    > > > lazy jacks. This would negate having to use reef ties to secure the
                    > > > reef, but have one line to pull it down. Maybe called "slab reefing"
                    > -
                    > > > not sure. This way one could remain below when reefing.
                    > >
                    > > Ah, does the Robbsboat call for a junk rig? I think possibly so.
                    > > But then again, I have a junk "thing".
                    > > >
                    > > > I have uploaded a file showing the two methods. One explained by Jim
                    > > > Michalak and the battened design that Bolger has drawn for a much
                    > > > larger hull.
                    > > >
                    > > > The file is called:
                    > > >
                    > > > Balanced Lug Notes and Ideas
                    > > >
                    > > > The more I think about this design the more I see it as a really fun
                    > > > boat! Much quicker and easier to build than Paradox and a viable
                    > > > option if one stays in sheltered water.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > I think a useful topic would be what the differences are between these
                    > > two boats as they are close together than far apart. I agree she
                    > > would be a quicker build with a far smaller "investment" needed in
                    > > time and money. I also think she would be close in performance also.
                    > > It may be possible that Robbsboat would be slightly faster in very
                    > > light airs, assuming PB is correct about PoS, etc. Robbsboat being
                    > > more slabsided, having a flying bow, and very close shear and side
                    > > forms.
                    > >
                    > > I have often thought of building RB. When I do, the anchoring issue
                    > > always comes to my mind. Lastly, put Jim's lugged Mikesboat rig on
                    > > Robbsboat. Now you can put in a reasonable front hatch, a large
                    > > anchorwell, AND you get a Mizzen (who doesn't love a Mizzen?). Now
                    > > that said, the boat is getting more optimized for real use and camping
                    > > than just a dayboat. Still, the possibilities are interesting.
                    > >
                    > > > Fold up lounge chair, air mattress, and backpacking equipment.
                    > > >
                    > > > Nels
                    > > >
                    > > Thanks for uploading the Lug sail thoughts!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Chris Curtis
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • daschultz2000
                    Having read the Robbsboat description by Michalak it is apparent to me that the design is purposely simplified to the point it is not really complete from
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 20, 2008
                      Having read the Robbsboat description by Michalak it is apparent to me
                      that the design is purposely simplified to the point it is not really
                      "complete" from the perspective of being ready to cruise the world.

                      By this I mean it does not include all the interior features needed.
                      That's what Michalak said in his description of the boat.

                      IMO one could build the basic boat, and sail it just to learn what
                      would need to be added in order to cruise with it.

                      Michalak's simple design philosophy and low cost makes such an
                      experiment reasonable for many.
                    • Nels
                      ... I totally agree with you. Also I kind of figure that he was not all that enthralled with the design of a small boat like this with it s limited appeal.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 20, 2008
                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Having read the Robbsboat description by Michalak it is apparent to me
                        > that the design is purposely simplified to the point it is not really
                        > "complete" from the perspective of being ready to cruise the world.
                        >
                        > By this I mean it does not include all the interior features needed.
                        > That's what Michalak said in his description of the boat.
                        >
                        > IMO one could build the basic boat, and sail it just to learn what
                        > would need to be added in order to cruise with it.
                        >
                        > Michalak's simple design philosophy and low cost makes such an
                        > experiment reasonable for many.
                        >

                        I totally agree with you.

                        Also I kind of figure that he was not all that enthralled with the
                        design of a small boat like this with it's limited appeal.

                        After all Jewelbox Junior has a lot more interior space and takes less
                        plywood, is 100 lb. lighter and also a really good family boat.

                        http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jb_jr/index.htm

                        Robbsboat is great looking though. I was surprised how nice the model
                        looks that is posted in the photos section.

                        Nels
                      • Alan
                        ... to me ... really ... world. ... needed. ... less ... model ... Hi Nels, Actually, my model, or at least the photos, kind-of do it more than justice, as in
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 20, 2008
                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Having read the Robbsboat description by Michalak it is apparent
                          to me
                          > > that the design is purposely simplified to the point it is not
                          really
                          > > "complete" from the perspective of being ready to cruise the
                          world.
                          > >
                          > > By this I mean it does not include all the interior features
                          needed.
                          > > That's what Michalak said in his description of the boat.
                          > >
                          > > IMO one could build the basic boat, and sail it just to learn what
                          > > would need to be added in order to cruise with it.
                          > >
                          > > Michalak's simple design philosophy and low cost makes such an
                          > > experiment reasonable for many.
                          > >
                          >
                          > I totally agree with you.
                          >
                          > Also I kind of figure that he was not all that enthralled with the
                          > design of a small boat like this with it's limited appeal.
                          >
                          > After all Jewelbox Junior has a lot more interior space and takes
                          less
                          > plywood, is 100 lb. lighter and also a really good family boat.
                          >
                          > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jb_jr/index.htm
                          >
                          > Robbsboat is great looking though. I was surprised how nice the
                          model
                          > looks that is posted in the photos section.
                          >
                          > Nels
                          >
                          Hi Nels,
                          Actually, my model, or at least the photos, kind-of do it more than
                          justice, as in a straight front-on wiew it looks a little odd to my
                          eye... That's because the top front edge of the front window is of
                          course wider than the bottom-edge, and the uprights thus slope
                          outwards-the opposite of what we're all used to. So you need the
                          courage of your convictions to be happy with that!
                          The mods that Mike did on his junk-rigged Philsboat have a similar
                          appearance I guess, and from the photos I've seen you can get used to
                          it...
                          Cheers,
                          Alan.
                        • Nels
                          ... That s the advantage of building a model - you get to see things in 3-D. There is the option of building the dog house separately and sloping it inwards
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 20, 2008
                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:

                            > Hi Nels,
                            > Actually, my model, or at least the photos, kind-of do it more than
                            > justice, as in a straight front-on wiew it looks a little odd to my
                            > eye... That's because the top front edge of the front window is of
                            > course wider than the bottom-edge, and the uprights thus slope
                            > outwards-the opposite of what we're all used to. So you need the
                            > courage of your convictions to be happy with that!
                            > The mods that Mike did on his junk-rigged Philsboat have a similar
                            > appearance I guess, and from the photos I've seen you can get used to
                            > it...
                            > Cheers,
                            > Alan.

                            That's the advantage of building a model - you get to see things in 3-D.

                            There is the option of building the dog house separately and sloping it
                            inwards like Matt Layden does on his, or even building an enclosed
                            dodger like he did on his Enigma.

                            Here is a link to that boat that gives some other information which says
                            the chine runners on Enigma are different than Paradox because it has
                            less draft and Matt felt they even performed a bit better.

                            http://aiki.pbwiki.com/Enigma+sailboat

                            Notice he is quoted as saying plans would available by the end of 2006
                            with some improvements added. Still nothing.

                            Nels



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • graeme19121984
                            Shouldn t be out in the sun (even in winter here). Already there s been too much of that probably. Can t stand the oppressive cold (at any time), but that s
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 30, 2008
                              Shouldn't be out in the sun (even in winter here). Already there's been
                              too much of that probably.

                              Can't stand the oppressive cold (at any time), but that's got better
                              over recent times and I can probably take it from above 16degC now.
                              (Got through without a heater this year, but came close to breaking
                              down more than once.)

                              The warmth offered inside Robbsboat would be welcome in winter, but
                              what about summer? 42-43 is where I seem to start to sweat on it.
                              Those maxes and above are not sustained very much, but high RH can be,
                              and that's what can send a person troppo.

                              Doesn't the Paradox have some through ventilation? Sitting under the
                              companionway, and under an umbrella for shade could work, and one
                              Paradox sailer (in the often overcast and much cooler England) at
                              least does that, but when it's hot in Robbsboat the umbrella would
                              probably block any downdraft off the sail, and in any case that breeze
                              can't get down into the cabin if there's not that through ventilation,
                              can it?

                              How about some kind of large aperture ventilation box (dorade?) on the
                              fore or aft deck with a wind scoop added when appropriate?

                              Of course, paint would be white or aluminium all over. Would an esky of
                              volume sufficient to carry any necessary cooling fluids and ice pass
                              through the companion way?

                              Graeme






                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Having read the Robbsboat description by Michalak it is apparent to me
                              > that the design is purposely simplified to the point it is not really
                              > "complete" from the perspective of being ready to cruise the world.
                              >
                              > By this I mean it does not include all the interior features needed.
                              > That's what Michalak said in his description of the boat.
                              >
                              > IMO one could build the basic boat, and sail it just to learn what
                              > would need to be added in order to cruise with it.
                              >
                              > Michalak's simple design philosophy and low cost makes such an
                              > experiment reasonable for many.
                              >
                            • graeme19121984
                              Shouldn t be out in the sun (even in winter here). Already there s been too much of that probably. Can t stand the oppressive cold (at any time), but that s
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 30, 2008
                                Shouldn't be out in the sun (even in winter here). Already there's been
                                too much of that probably.

                                Can't stand the oppressive cold (at any time), but that's got better
                                over recent times and I can probably take it from above 16degC now.
                                (Got through without a heater this year, but came close to breaking
                                down more than once.)

                                The warmth offered inside Robbsboat would be welcome in winter, but
                                what about summer? 42-43 is where I seem to start to sweat on it.
                                Those maxes and above are not sustained very much, but high RH can be,
                                and that's what can send a person troppo.

                                Doesn't the Paradox have some through ventilation? Sitting under the
                                companionway, and under an umbrella for shade could work, and one
                                Paradox sailer (in the often overcast and much cooler England) at
                                least does that, but when it's hot in Robbsboat the umbrella would
                                probably block any downdraft off the sail, and in any case that breeze
                                can't get down into the cabin if there's not that through ventilation,
                                can it?

                                How about some kind of large aperture ventilation box (dorade?) on the
                                fore or aft deck with a wind scoop added when appropriate?

                                Of course, paint would be white or aluminium all over. Would an esky of
                                volume sufficient to carry any necessary cooling fluids and ice pass
                                through the companion way?

                                Graeme






                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Having read the Robbsboat description by Michalak it is apparent to me
                                > that the design is purposely simplified to the point it is not really
                                > "complete" from the perspective of being ready to cruise the world.
                                >
                                > By this I mean it does not include all the interior features needed.
                                > That's what Michalak said in his description of the boat.
                                >
                                > IMO one could build the basic boat, and sail it just to learn what
                                > would need to be added in order to cruise with it.
                                >
                                > Michalak's simple design philosophy and low cost makes such an
                                > experiment reasonable for many.
                                >
                              • graeme19121984
                                Hi there, could the front window be verticle? Less window material, less exposure to scratching and bird crap, less likely to be trodden on, less likely to
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 30, 2008
                                  Hi there,

                                  could the front window be verticle? Less window material, less exposure
                                  to scratching and bird crap, less likely to be trodden on, less likely
                                  to leak in prolonged rain. Could it be at a bit of the reverse slope,
                                  to minimise glare and improve visibility?

                                  How would that look?

                                  Graeme




                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:

                                  > Actually, my model, or at least the photos, kind-of do it more than
                                  > justice, as in a straight front-on wiew it looks a little odd to my
                                  > eye... That's because the top front edge of the front window is of
                                  > course wider than the bottom-edge, and the uprights thus slope
                                  > outwards-the opposite of what we're all used to. So you need the
                                  > courage of your convictions to be happy with that!
                                  > The mods that Mike did on his junk-rigged Philsboat have a similar
                                  > appearance I guess, and from the photos I've seen you can get used to
                                  > it...
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Alan.
                                  >
                                • Nels
                                  ... exposure ... That s more or less my exact plan. Extend the cabin top forward to have a profile much like Paradox and have a wiley hatch at the forward
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 30, 2008
                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi there,
                                    >
                                    > could the front window be verticle? Less window material, less
                                    exposure
                                    > to scratching and bird crap, less likely to be trodden on, less likely
                                    > to leak in prolonged rain. Could it be at a bit of the reverse slope,
                                    > to minimise glare and improve visibility?
                                    >
                                    > How would that look?
                                    >
                                    > Graeme

                                    That's more or less my exact plan. Extend the cabin top forward to have
                                    a profile much like Paradox and have a "wiley" hatch at the forward end
                                    that can prop open for air flow and a vent in the aft drop board - or
                                    even a second one with just a screen.

                                    One could also sit on the aft deck in the companionway with the main
                                    hatch open. My golf umbrella is in my thoughts as well.

                                    But I open canoe a lot too and when it gets to 40C it is pretty hot even
                                    being out in the open and some shade might be nice.

                                    Bolger mentions that when sailing on Lake Mead with the Jochem's Family
                                    Schooner it was cooler inside than out.

                                    For me it would be to extend the sailing season though and also for rain
                                    protection.

                                    Nels



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • graeme19121984
                                    ... have ... end ... or ... Nels, A wiley! Yes, good plan... and the drop board vent. Could a vent be placed centrally, high on the transom? Perhaps also one
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 31, 2008
                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:

                                      > That's more or less my exact plan. Extend the cabin top forward to
                                      have
                                      > a profile much like Paradox and have a "wiley" hatch at the forward
                                      end
                                      > that can prop open for air flow and a vent in the aft drop board -
                                      or
                                      > even a second one with just a screen.

                                      Nels,

                                      A wiley! Yes, good plan... and the drop board vent.

                                      Could a vent be placed centrally, high on the transom? Perhaps also
                                      one with P & S openings high at the bow? I don't have the plans, and
                                      for all I know some of these details may be already designed in even
                                      though it's reputed to be very JM minimalist. Someone mentioned a
                                      hatch on the foredeck, for example - is that on the plan. That could
                                      be propped open at anchor... and the stocked esky could be passed
                                      down through there too...

                                      Graeme



                                      > One could also sit on the aft deck in the companionway with the main
                                      > hatch open. My golf umbrella is in my thoughts as well.

                                      This would be great in the right conditions.



                                      > But I open canoe a lot too and when it gets to 40C it is pretty hot
                                      even being out in the open and some shade might be nice.

                                      Yes, though the sun still feels wonderful it's nastier effects are
                                      insidious, and I think now that shade is most important - even more
                                      than protection from reasonable degrees of cold or wet. Down inside a
                                      boat rather than on one with just a canopy all the reflected UV is
                                      dodged too.


                                      > Bolger mentions that when sailing on Lake Mead with the Jochem's
                                      > Family Schooner it was cooler inside than out.

                                      Yes, my concern for Robbsboat and similar is that the "slot" opening
                                      isn't near as big, and so the air down inside won't move over the
                                      body enough to feel refreshed.



                                      > For me it would be to extend the sailing season though and also for
                                      rain protection.


                                      It ought to be able to make it a very comfortable twelve month season
                                      here - the intense sun at high summer, and the unaclimatised cold of
                                      mid-winter could be avoided.

                                      Trolling motor and batteries are good, but I'd as likely try to fit a
                                      well for the smallest size i c outboard available.


                                      Graeme
                                    • Nels
                                      ... I have not received my plans yet but have had some discussions with Chris Curtis who has his. Very minimal as far as hatches and such - which I think
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 31, 2008
                                        > Nels,
                                        >
                                        > A wiley! Yes, good plan... and the drop board vent.
                                        >
                                        > Could a vent be placed centrally, high on the transom? Perhaps also
                                        > one with P & S openings high at the bow? I don't have the plans, and
                                        > for all I know some of these details may be already designed in even
                                        > though it's reputed to be very JM minimalist. Someone mentioned a
                                        > hatch on the foredeck, for example - is that on the plan. That could
                                        > be propped open at anchor... and the stocked esky could be passed
                                        > down through there too...
                                        >
                                        > Graeme

                                        I have not received my plans yet but have had some discussions with
                                        Chris Curtis who has his. Very minimal as far as hatches and such -
                                        which I think leaves options open. I still have to work out the final
                                        mast set-up but don't feel it will allow for a hatch on the fordeck.

                                        Most times I would be running a line ashore and using an anchor off the
                                        stern. But still would like to have access to the foredeck perhaps-
                                        Probably through the wiley hatch. Maybe a wiley port at the stern like
                                        on Micro? Only closeable?

                                        I sure can't imagine one of those transparent domes like on some
                                        designs, but I like the pramhood idea.

                                        When canoeing a good sun hat is essential and also I have a "neck
                                        cooler" which is an amazing concept - what those beads can do!

                                        http://www.p2designs.com/ShipCooler.htm

                                        I may use the same foam I used to line a camping van. It worked really
                                        great. Warmer in winter - cooler in summer.

                                        Nels


                                        Nels



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Alan
                                        ... to ... forward ... and ... even ... could ... main ... hot ... a ... opening ... for ... season ... of ... a ... Hi, What s the wiley hatch/vent then?
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 31, 2008
                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"
                                          <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > That's more or less my exact plan. Extend the cabin top forward
                                          to
                                          > have
                                          > > a profile much like Paradox and have a "wiley" hatch at the
                                          forward
                                          > end
                                          > > that can prop open for air flow and a vent in the aft drop board -

                                          > or
                                          > > even a second one with just a screen.
                                          >
                                          > Nels,
                                          >
                                          > A wiley! Yes, good plan... and the drop board vent.
                                          >
                                          > Could a vent be placed centrally, high on the transom? Perhaps also
                                          > one with P & S openings high at the bow? I don't have the plans,
                                          and
                                          > for all I know some of these details may be already designed in
                                          even
                                          > though it's reputed to be very JM minimalist. Someone mentioned a
                                          > hatch on the foredeck, for example - is that on the plan. That
                                          could
                                          > be propped open at anchor... and the stocked esky could be passed
                                          > down through there too...
                                          >
                                          > Graeme
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > One could also sit on the aft deck in the companionway with the
                                          main
                                          > > hatch open. My golf umbrella is in my thoughts as well.
                                          >
                                          > This would be great in the right conditions.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > But I open canoe a lot too and when it gets to 40C it is pretty
                                          hot
                                          > even being out in the open and some shade might be nice.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, though the sun still feels wonderful it's nastier effects are
                                          > insidious, and I think now that shade is most important - even more
                                          > than protection from reasonable degrees of cold or wet. Down inside
                                          a
                                          > boat rather than on one with just a canopy all the reflected UV is
                                          > dodged too.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Bolger mentions that when sailing on Lake Mead with the Jochem's
                                          > > Family Schooner it was cooler inside than out.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, my concern for Robbsboat and similar is that the "slot"
                                          opening
                                          > isn't near as big, and so the air down inside won't move over the
                                          > body enough to feel refreshed.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > For me it would be to extend the sailing season though and also
                                          for
                                          > rain protection.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > It ought to be able to make it a very comfortable twelve month
                                          season
                                          > here - the intense sun at high summer, and the unaclimatised cold
                                          of
                                          > mid-winter could be avoided.
                                          >
                                          > Trolling motor and batteries are good, but I'd as likely try to fit
                                          a
                                          > well for the smallest size i c outboard available.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Graeme
                                          >
                                          Hi,
                                          What's the 'wiley' hatch/vent then? Have heard mention of this
                                          before, but haven't found any info...could someone describe what this
                                          is please.
                                          Cheers,
                                          Alan.
                                        • graeme19121984
                                          Hi Alan, Wileys are a type of window, port, or vent if you like, that are pretty simple to construct and give a weatherproof, quite seaworthy way to allow
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 31, 2008
                                            Hi Alan,

                                            Wileys are a type of window, port, or vent if you like, that are
                                            pretty simple to construct and give a weatherproof, quite seaworthy
                                            way to allow ventilation and light at the same time as keeping things
                                            dry from windblown rain or spray.

                                            On the inside, and at the sides of a rectangular or square opening
                                            there is an inclined "bracket".

                                            On the inside, along the bottom there is a low sided channel with
                                            drainage holes let through the bulkhead.

                                            You need two wedges - split to give a bit of spring if they're
                                            wooden.

                                            The glass or plastic window pane is wedged from behind up against the
                                            opening to close it. If you want it open, but want to keep out rain
                                            or spray then the wedges are removed and the glass is allowed to rest
                                            back on the brackets and then the wedges are inserted to jam it there
                                            so it doesn't bang around.

                                            If you want full ventilation then you just take the glass completely
                                            out and stow it elsewhere. The opening can be fly screened outside or
                                            you can have a screen and use it like the glass pane alone, or use it
                                            at the same time as the glass pane by inserting them both with the
                                            wedge inserted between them.


                                            Phil Bolger shows them on some of his designs
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Wiley%20Port%20%26%
                                            20Bolger%20hatch/

                                            HTH

                                            Graeme
                                          • Alan
                                            ... things ... the ... rest ... there ... completely ... or ... it ... Thanks Graeme! What a brilliant description! You re not a technical writer by any
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 1, 2008
                                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"
                                              <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Alan,
                                              >
                                              > Wileys are a type of window, port, or vent if you like, that are
                                              > pretty simple to construct and give a weatherproof, quite seaworthy
                                              > way to allow ventilation and light at the same time as keeping
                                              things
                                              > dry from windblown rain or spray.
                                              >
                                              > On the inside, and at the sides of a rectangular or square opening
                                              > there is an inclined "bracket".
                                              >
                                              > On the inside, along the bottom there is a low sided channel with
                                              > drainage holes let through the bulkhead.
                                              >
                                              > You need two wedges - split to give a bit of spring if they're
                                              > wooden.
                                              >
                                              > The glass or plastic window pane is wedged from behind up against
                                              the
                                              > opening to close it. If you want it open, but want to keep out rain
                                              > or spray then the wedges are removed and the glass is allowed to
                                              rest
                                              > back on the brackets and then the wedges are inserted to jam it
                                              there
                                              > so it doesn't bang around.
                                              >
                                              > If you want full ventilation then you just take the glass
                                              completely
                                              > out and stow it elsewhere. The opening can be fly screened outside
                                              or
                                              > you can have a screen and use it like the glass pane alone, or use
                                              it
                                              > at the same time as the glass pane by inserting them both with the
                                              > wedge inserted between them.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Phil Bolger shows them on some of his designs
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Wiley%20Port%20%26%
                                              > 20Bolger%20hatch/
                                              >
                                              > HTH
                                              >
                                              > Graeme
                                              >
                                              Thanks Graeme! What a brilliant description! You're not a technical
                                              writer by any chance? You produced an amazingly clear picture of how
                                              these work.
                                              BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for anything
                                              other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be able
                                              to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the bulkhead
                                              at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
                                              monkey...
                                              Cheers,
                                              Alan.
                                            • Nels
                                              ... Hi Alan, That s my feeling as well. So I am thinking of installing the hatch on an extended forward section of the house. Imagine the windshield being
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 1, 2008
                                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Graeme
                                                > >
                                                > Thanks Graeme! What a brilliant description! You're not a technical
                                                > writer by any chance? You produced an amazingly clear picture of how
                                                > these work.
                                                > BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for anything
                                                > other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be able
                                                > to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the bulkhead
                                                > at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
                                                > monkey...
                                                > Cheers,
                                                > Alan.

                                                Hi Alan,

                                                That's my feeling as well. So I am thinking of installing the hatch on
                                                an extended forward section of the house. Imagine the "windshield"
                                                being more vertical than on your model. Hopefully that would etend the
                                                cabin and allow enough room to allow for a hatch right behind the top of
                                                the windshield and still enough space for the sliding hatch runners
                                                behind it.

                                                Another option I considered was full-length sliding hatch runners and
                                                two sliding hatches, but that is more complicated.

                                                Of course a third option is to have a slot top which if sailing on
                                                sheltered waters may be the simplest of all and give the best air flow.

                                                There is a word doc in the files "Hatches slot covers doc" giving some
                                                ideas from Jim - including vents similar to the wiley port. A wiley vent
                                                is the same except all made of wood in one piece with no removable parts
                                                or wedges.

                                                Nels



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • graeme19121984
                                                Thanks Alan. When I first encountered the wiley windows I didn t quite get how they were put together, so some of my belaboured visualising of them must have
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Sep 3, 2008
                                                  Thanks Alan. When I first encountered the wiley windows I didn't
                                                  quite get how they were put together, so some of my belaboured
                                                  visualising of them must have stuck.

                                                  The mast is in the way a bit, I heard that, but didn't think about
                                                  acccessing bulky gear.

                                                  I guess that forward of the mast, the hatch would have to be quite
                                                  narrow in any case. Pet monkey? - how about one of them extendable
                                                  grabber thingos. Now, is that mast foot really a problem? - it would
                                                  be a shame if that space up front was inaccessable to store the
                                                  bedding or such like.

                                                  Graeme


                                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
                                                  > clear picture of how
                                                  > these work.
                                                  > BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for anything
                                                  > other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be
                                                  able
                                                  > to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the
                                                  bulkhead
                                                  > at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
                                                  > monkey...
                                                • Alan
                                                  Hi, The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40 . But subtract approx 3 each side for frame width leaves 34 . Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Sep 3, 2008
                                                    Hi,
                                                    The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40".
                                                    But subtract approx 3" each side for frame width leaves 34".
                                                    Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3" square-section.
                                                    Leaves 15 to 16" opening each side of mast-plenty for access thru
                                                    for storage, but not to get a body thru. Opening is around 20" high,
                                                    so on your side you would be able to reach into this compartment ok,
                                                    to put and get stuff.
                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Alan.
                                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"
                                                    <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks Alan. When I first encountered the wiley windows I didn't
                                                    > quite get how they were put together, so some of my belaboured
                                                    > visualising of them must have stuck.
                                                    >
                                                    > The mast is in the way a bit, I heard that, but didn't think about
                                                    > acccessing bulky gear.
                                                    >
                                                    > I guess that forward of the mast, the hatch would have to be quite
                                                    > narrow in any case. Pet monkey? - how about one of them extendable
                                                    > grabber thingos. Now, is that mast foot really a problem? - it
                                                    would
                                                    > be a shame if that space up front was inaccessable to store the
                                                    > bedding or such like.
                                                    >
                                                    > Graeme
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@> wrote:
                                                    > > clear picture of how
                                                    > > these work.
                                                    > > BTW, don't think a forward-deck hatch would be useable for
                                                    anything
                                                    > > other than ventilation on Robbsboat, since the crew would not be
                                                    > able
                                                    > > to use it for access, due to the restricted opening thru the
                                                    > bulkhead
                                                    > > at the mast position. Perhaps if you go sailing with your pet
                                                    > > monkey...
                                                    >
                                                  • Nels
                                                    ... Thanks Alan, That is about the same as with Paradox - but how you get to that forward optional opening is beyond me. (See 2nd sketch)
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Sep 4, 2008
                                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi,
                                                      > The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40".
                                                      > But subtract approx 3" each side for frame width leaves 34".
                                                      > Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3" square-section.
                                                      > Leaves 15 to 16" opening each side of mast-plenty for access thru
                                                      > for storage, but not to get a body thru. Opening is around 20" high,
                                                      > so on your side you would be able to reach into this compartment ok,
                                                      > to put and get stuff.
                                                      > Cheers,
                                                      > Alan.

                                                      Thanks Alan,

                                                      That is about the same as with Paradox - but how you get to that
                                                      forward "optional opening" is beyond me. (See 2nd sketch)

                                                      http://www.microcruising.com/Sketch1.htm

                                                      Probably it is filled with flotation on PB anyway? An old kayak trick
                                                      is to attach lines to your storage bags and shove them into the bow
                                                      with a paddle leaving the string in the cockpit to help retrieve them.

                                                      In the above sketches it shows that the tack of the sail is much
                                                      further aft - just ahead of the mast almost like a standing lug -
                                                      compared to the PB plans. So of course this locates the CE of the sail
                                                      further aft as well so I was thinking the mast on PB would have to
                                                      move forward to make up for that if I went with the Paradox rig design.

                                                      But nope - I think it stays where it is - if one uses the larger
                                                      rudder blade as on Paradox. (Notice it has a boarding step added on.)

                                                      Nels
                                                    • Alan
                                                      Hi Nels, More info-open this can-of-worms at your own risk! RB mast rakes back, I measure it at 8 back where the yard crosses, relative to the deck-entry
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Sep 5, 2008
                                                        Hi Nels,
                                                        More info-open this can-of-worms at your own risk!
                                                        RB mast rakes back, I measure it at 8" back where the yard crosses,
                                                        relative to the deck-entry position. So placing it vertical instead
                                                        will move the sail by that amount. JM has mentioned changing mast-
                                                        rake to setup balance in several of his commentaries on various
                                                        boats. The attachment-point of the halyard to the yard can also be
                                                        varied of course.
                                                        RB rudder has 2sqft immersed area, Paradox looks to be more like
                                                        3.2 or so, =at least 50% more, so this will shift CLR back...but
                                                        RB is longer, so its rudder will be more effective probably.
                                                        RB does not have an immersed forefoot like Paradox...
                                                        One thing leads to another, leads to another.
                                                        Hope this helps, or does it make it worse?!
                                                        Cheers,
                                                        Alan.
                                                        BTW, thought I remember you were thinking of building 'Caroline'?

                                                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hi,
                                                        > > The overall beam at the mast bulkhead is 40".
                                                        > > But subtract approx 3" each side for frame width leaves 34".
                                                        > > Then the mast comes down the middle, approx 3" square-section.
                                                        > > Leaves 15 to 16" opening each side of mast-plenty for access thru
                                                        > > for storage, but not to get a body thru. Opening is around 20"
                                                        high,
                                                        > > so on your side you would be able to reach into this compartment
                                                        ok,
                                                        > > to put and get stuff.
                                                        > > Cheers,
                                                        > > Alan.
                                                        >
                                                        > Thanks Alan,
                                                        >
                                                        > That is about the same as with Paradox - but how you get to that
                                                        > forward "optional opening" is beyond me. (See 2nd sketch)
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.microcruising.com/Sketch1.htm
                                                        >
                                                        > Probably it is filled with flotation on PB anyway? An old kayak
                                                        trick
                                                        > is to attach lines to your storage bags and shove them into the bow
                                                        > with a paddle leaving the string in the cockpit to help retrieve
                                                        them.
                                                        >
                                                        > In the above sketches it shows that the tack of the sail is much
                                                        > further aft - just ahead of the mast almost like a standing lug -
                                                        > compared to the PB plans. So of course this locates the CE of the
                                                        sail
                                                        > further aft as well so I was thinking the mast on PB would have to
                                                        > move forward to make up for that if I went with the Paradox rig
                                                        design.
                                                        >
                                                        > But nope - I think it stays where it is - if one uses the larger
                                                        > rudder blade as on Paradox. (Notice it has a boarding step added
                                                        on.)
                                                        >
                                                        > Nels
                                                        >
                                                      • Nels
                                                        ... Maybe just built to plan right? I am really curious regarding Matt s chine runners concept, and think the larger rudder area plays into it. One can
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Sep 5, 2008
                                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <logicaid@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Hi Nels,
                                                          > More info-open this can-of-worms at your own risk!
                                                          > RB mast rakes back, I measure it at 8" back where the yard crosses,
                                                          > relative to the deck-entry position. So placing it vertical instead
                                                          > will move the sail by that amount. JM has mentioned changing mast-
                                                          > rake to setup balance in several of his commentaries on various
                                                          > boats. The attachment-point of the halyard to the yard can also be
                                                          > varied of course.
                                                          > RB rudder has 2sqft immersed area, Paradox looks to be more like
                                                          > 3.2 or so, =at least 50% more, so this will shift CLR back...but
                                                          > RB is longer, so its rudder will be more effective probably.
                                                          > RB does not have an immersed forefoot like Paradox...
                                                          > One thing leads to another, leads to another.
                                                          > Hope this helps, or does it make it worse?!
                                                          > Cheers,
                                                          > Alan.
                                                          > BTW, thought I remember you were thinking of building 'Caroline'?

                                                          Maybe just built to plan right?

                                                          I am really curious regarding Matt's chine runners concept, and think
                                                          the larger rudder area plays into it. One can probably cut it down if
                                                          the experiment doesn't work, saw off the runners and add the leeboard.
                                                          At which point you find out what you did wrong and wished you'd left
                                                          them.

                                                          Also very intrigued with the roller furling sail rig.

                                                          Also my present location favors a light shallow boat, with some shelter
                                                          in the fall when it gets cooler and the sand bars appear.

                                                          Yes I was considering Caroline as well as a couple others like Eisbox
                                                          and Jukebox3 both with small doghouses.

                                                          Have never built anything stitch and glue so also have Tween plans along
                                                          with the wood to maybe start off with it. It has a lateen rig which also
                                                          interests me, and would make a good dink for a larger boat.

                                                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/tween/index.htm

                                                          There are others too...

                                                          http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2003/1015/index.htm#Birdwat\
                                                          cher%20Lugsail

                                                          (cursor down to Batto)

                                                          or...

                                                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/lhf17/index.htm

                                                          Actually Jim made a typo in the catalogue for the name - it should have
                                                          been LFH17:-)

                                                          Nels



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