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Toto question
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 0 Attachment
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "grafxmangrafxman" <grafxman@...> wrote:>
Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation. Michalak claims, "In good
> Is the Toto too small for a 250 pounder?
>
conditions she will paddle two adults" Larsboat has a "30" plug added
in the middle to gain capacity."
So the preferred choice might be to decide if you might have a second
person with you some of time, and are not concerned about the added
hull weight with Larsboat.
Nels 0 Attachment
Actually the quote is "180 pounds of buoyancy volume if the hatch cover
stays watertight" so I'm not sure exactly what that means when the
description also says it will paddle two adults. Are those 90 pound
adults? I was hoping that someone who has actually built one, who
perhaps weighs 200 pounds or thereabouts would respond and say yes it
has 6 inches of freeboard or no it only has 1 inch of freeboard. Thanks
anyway Nels.
Roger
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
>  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "grafxmangrafxman" <grafxman@> wrote:
> >
> > Is the Toto too small for a 250 pounder?
> >
> Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation. Michalak claims, "In good
> conditions she will paddle two adults" Larsboat has a "30" plug added
> in the middle to gain capacity."
>
> So the preferred choice might be to decide if you might have a second
> person with you some of time, and are not concerned about the added
> hull weight with Larsboat.
>
> Nels
> 0 Attachment
I weigh 180 and often take my daughter along, for a total of about 235 lb.,
at that weight it is fine.
Bill
On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:44 PM, grafxmangrafxman <grafxman@...>
wrote:
> Actually the quote is "180 pounds of buoyancy volume if the hatch cover
[Nontext portions of this message have been removed]
> stays watertight" so I'm not sure exactly what that means when the
> description also says it will paddle two adults. Are those 90 pound
> adults? I was hoping that someone who has actually built one, who
> perhaps weighs 200 pounds or thereabouts would respond and say yes it
> has 6 inches of freeboard or no it only has 1 inch of freeboard. Thanks
> anyway Nels.
>
> Roger
>
>
>  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nels"
> <arvent@...> wrote:
> >
> >  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "grafxmangrafxman" <grafxman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is the Toto too small for a 250 pounder?
> > >
> > Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation. Michalak claims, "In good
> > conditions she will paddle two adults" Larsboat has a "30" plug added
> > in the middle to gain capacity."
> >
> > So the preferred choice might be to decide if you might have a second
> > person with you some of time, and are not concerned about the added
> > hull weight with Larsboat.
> >
> > Nels
> >
>
>
>
 0 Attachment
Thanks a lot Bill. That's what I was hoping to hear.
Roger
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Turnbull" <BillTurnbull@...>
wrote:>
235 lb.,
> I weigh 180 and often take my daughter along, for a total of about
> at that weight it is fine.
cover
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:44 PM, grafxmangrafxman <grafxman@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Actually the quote is "180 pounds of buoyancy volume if the hatch
> > stays watertight" so I'm not sure exactly what that means when the
it
> > description also says it will paddle two adults. Are those 90 pound
> > adults? I was hoping that someone who has actually built one, who
> > perhaps weighs 200 pounds or thereabouts would respond and say yes
> > has 6 inches of freeboard or no it only has 1 inch of freeboard.
Thanks
> > anyway Nels.
"Nels"
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > <arvent@> wrote:
added
> > >
> > >  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "grafxmangrafxman" <grafxman@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is the Toto too small for a 250 pounder?
> > > >
> > > Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation. Michalak claims, "In good
> > > conditions she will paddle two adults" Larsboat has a "30" plug
> > > in the middle to gain capacity."
second
> > >
> > > So the preferred choice might be to decide if you might have a
> > > person with you some of time, and are not concerned about the
added
> > > hull weight with Larsboat.
> > >
> > > Nels
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Nontext portions of this message have been removed]
> 0 Attachment
> Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation.
This is the volume of the flotation chamber in cubic feet times the
weight of water in a cubic foot. 180 lbs floatation would float the
weight of the boat if swamped. Subtract the weight of the boat from
180 and you might get 120 lbs. The normal life jacket has 22 lbs of
bouyancy. So, the floation in the boat might keep the boat plus 5
adults in the water alongside of it afloat, all of them wet and miserable.
My Piccup Pram has about 760 lbs of floatation, so if it were upside
down I could put 3 adults on the bottom and we would all be completely
dry...that is if we could get out of the boat and onto the bottom
without getting wet.
This is different than the displacement which is the weight of the
water that the boat displaces. If you take the normal displacement
given on a set of plans and subtract the boat weight you have the
weight of allowable crew and supplies. e.g. My Piccup displaces 490
lbs. Subtracting 100 lbs boat weight gives 390 pounds of crew and
supplies. Or 2+ adults. I've had 4 adults in it and it is slow, but
sails fine that way.
Jim gives his expected displacement on his plans at the waterline at
the bow.
Whew. That's a lot of words when you already have your question
answered. Sorry. I just got started and couldn't stop writing.
Reed 0 Attachment
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@...> wrote:>
miserable.
>
> > Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation.
>
> This is the volume of the flotation chamber in cubic feet times the
> weight of water in a cubic foot. 180 lbs floatation would float the
> weight of the boat if swamped. Subtract the weight of the boat from
> 180 and you might get 120 lbs. The normal life jacket has 22 lbs of
> bouyancy. So, the floation in the boat might keep the boat plus 5
> adults in the water alongside of it afloat, all of them wet and
>
The Piccup Pram has to be one of the greatest little designs for
> My Piccup Pram has about 760 lbs of floatation, so if it were upside
> down I could put 3 adults on the bottom and we would all be completely
> dry...that is if we could get out of the boat and onto the bottom
> without getting wet.
>
> This is different than the displacement which is the weight of the
> water that the boat displaces. If you take the normal displacement
> given on a set of plans and subtract the boat weight you have the
> weight of allowable crew and supplies. e.g. My Piccup displaces 490
> lbs. Subtracting 100 lbs boat weight gives 390 pounds of crew and
> supplies. Or 2+ adults. I've had 4 adults in it and it is slow, but
> sails fine that way.
>
> Jim gives his expected displacement on his plans at the waterline at
> the bow.
>
> Whew. That's a lot of words when you already have your question
> answered. Sorry. I just got started and couldn't stop writing.
>
> Reed
>
carrying capacity and safety and can fit in the back of a truck box to!
I found what your wrote to be very helpful:)
Nels 0 Attachment
Just a reminder. As drawn by Jim, the only flotation chamber is
located in the stern.
My .02. Adding a bow flotation chamber  as many have done  should I
suspect, double the flotation.
Bryant
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@...> wrote:
>
>
> > Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation.
>
> This is the volume of the flotation chamber in cubic feet times the
> weight of water in a cubic foot. 180 lbs floatation would float the
> weight of the boat if swamped. Subtract the weight of the boat from
> 180 and you might get 120 lbs. The normal life jacket has 22 lbs of
> bouyancy. So, the floation in the boat might keep the boat plus 5
> adults in the water alongside of it afloat, all of them wet and
miserable.
>
> My Piccup Pram has about 760 lbs of floatation, so if it were upside
> down I could put 3 adults on the bottom and we would all be completely
> dry...that is if we could get out of the boat and onto the bottom
> without getting wet.
>
> This is different than the displacement which is the weight of the
> water that the boat displaces. If you take the normal displacement
> given on a set of plans and subtract the boat weight you have the
> weight of allowable crew and supplies. e.g. My Piccup displaces 490
> lbs. Subtracting 100 lbs boat weight gives 390 pounds of crew and
> supplies. Or 2+ adults. I've had 4 adults in it and it is slow, but
> sails fine that way.
>
> Jim gives his expected displacement on his plans at the waterline at
> the bow.
>
> Whew. That's a lot of words when you already have your question
> answered. Sorry. I just got started and couldn't stop writing.
>
> Reed
> 0 Attachment
Oh, no, not another set of plans to order!
Bryant
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
<snip>
> The Piccup Pram has to be one of the greatest little designs for
> carrying capacity and safety and can fit in the back of a truck box to!
>
> I found what your wrote to be very helpful:)
>
> Nels
> 0 Attachment
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@...> wrote:>
Actually I modified mine so it's more like a Mixer...a great little boat.
> Oh, no, not another set of plans to order!
>
> Bryant
Reed 0 Attachment
Tell us more about this PP/Mixer. Why? How did it work?
Bryant
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@...> wrote:
>
>  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, no, not another set of plans to order!
> >
> > Bryant
>
>
> Actually I modified mine so it's more like a Mixer...a great little
boat.
>
> Reed
> 0 Attachment
> Tell us more about this PP/Mixer. Why? How did it work?
With the Piccup Pram I thought that the bottom of the bow transom was
>
> Bryant
too low. At first every wave I encountered splashed up and over the
fore deck and ran down into the cockpit. I added a splash board on
the deck that diverted this water over the side and that helped.
Then it seemed that waves I met going to windward were hitting the
bow transom and slowing the boat down. I cut off the bow transom,
added about a foot to the side and bilge planks and brought them to a
point, much a Jim M. did in his Mixer design. All of this was done
in correspondence with Jim and led to the Mixer design. I found the
boat to be drier and faster to windward.
A significant difference? Maybe not, but I'm happy with the
results. Now I'm thinking of building an IMB. In that design the
waterline is quite a ways below bottom of the bow transom.
Reed 0 Attachment
Thanks a lot Reed. Like Nels, I too found your explanation very helpful
and it explained something I knew nothing about. Unfortunately it made
my head explode and now I have to go to the hospital. ;)
Roger
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
>  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Toto as designed has 180 lb floatation.
> >
> > This is the volume of the flotation chamber in cubic feet times the
> > weight of water in a cubic foot. 180 lbs floatation would float the
> > weight of the boat if swamped. Subtract the weight of the boat from
> > 180 and you might get 120 lbs. The normal life jacket has 22 lbs of
> > bouyancy. So, the floation in the boat might keep the boat plus 5
> > adults in the water alongside of it afloat, all of them wet and
> miserable.
> >
> > My Piccup Pram has about 760 lbs of floatation, so if it were upside
> > down I could put 3 adults on the bottom and we would all be
completely
> > dry...that is if we could get out of the boat and onto the bottom
> > without getting wet.
> >
> > This is different than the displacement which is the weight of the
> > water that the boat displaces. If you take the normal displacement
> > given on a set of plans and subtract the boat weight you have the
> > weight of allowable crew and supplies. e.g. My Piccup displaces 490
> > lbs. Subtracting 100 lbs boat weight gives 390 pounds of crew and
> > supplies. Or 2+ adults. I've had 4 adults in it and it is slow,
but
> > sails fine that way.
> >
> > Jim gives his expected displacement on his plans at the waterline at
> > the bow.
> >
> > Whew. That's a lot of words when you already have your question
> > answered. Sorry. I just got started and couldn't stop writing.
> >
> > Reed
> >
> The Piccup Pram has to be one of the greatest little designs for
> carrying capacity and safety and can fit in the back of a truck box
to!
>
> I found what your wrote to be very helpful:)
>
> Nels
> 0 Attachment
The broad, blunt bow transom was the one thing that threw me off.
Which is why I got Mixer plans. Any comment on the Mixer?
Bryant
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@...> wrote:
>
> > Tell us more about this PP/Mixer. Why? How did it work?
> >
> > Bryant
>
>
> With the Piccup Pram I thought that the bottom of the bow transom was
> too low. At first every wave I encountered splashed up and over the
> fore deck and ran down into the cockpit. I added a splash board on
> the deck that diverted this water over the side and that helped.
>
> Then it seemed that waves I met going to windward were hitting the
> bow transom and slowing the boat down. I cut off the bow transom,
> added about a foot to the side and bilge planks and brought them to a
> point, much a Jim M. did in his Mixer design. All of this was done
> in correspondence with Jim and led to the Mixer design. I found the
> boat to be drier and faster to windward.
>
> A significant difference? Maybe not, but I'm happy with the
> results. Now I'm thinking of building an IMB. In that design the
> waterline is quite a ways below bottom of the bow transom.
>
> Reed
> 0 Attachment
Hi, everyone,
I've joined the two sheets of plywood, end to end. With the rough
side of the joined sheets facing up, I've laid out the lines as per
the plans. Now my question is, will the rough side be inside or
outside the boat? I plan on starting my cuts tomorrow morning, so
I've decided to ask the board before starting. My take on the plans
is the bottom bilge shape is the starboard side, and the bottom side
panel is the port side. Is that correct? Does it matter? Of
course, I would like the rough side of the plywood to be inside. Any
Toto builders, or someone with the Toto plans out there, that can help me?
Robert 0 Attachment
I usually put the rough side on the outside when I build plywood
boats. It is easier to fill the holes and smooth it that way. Also
there is usually more material on the rough side since it is not as
well sanded. However I would say that it does not really matter.
Either way works well.
Chris Feller
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Paquette"
<robertpaquette@...> wrote:>
help me?
> Hi, everyone,
> I've joined the two sheets of plywood, end to end. With the rough
> side of the joined sheets facing up, I've laid out the lines as per
> the plans. Now my question is, will the rough side be inside or
> outside the boat? I plan on starting my cuts tomorrow morning, so
> I've decided to ask the board before starting. My take on the plans
> is the bottom bilge shape is the starboard side, and the bottom side
> panel is the port side. Is that correct? Does it matter? Of
> course, I would like the rough side of the plywood to be inside. Any
> Toto builders, or someone with the Toto plans out there, that can
> Robert
> 0 Attachment
Hi, Chris,
My question remains. As laid out on the plan sheet, if I've scribed
the lines on the rough side. Will the rough side end up being inside
or outside.
Robert
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Feller" <chrisbfeller@...> wrote:
>
> I usually put the rough side on the outside when I build plywood
> boats. It is easier to fill the holes and smooth it that way. Also
> there is usually more material on the rough side since it is not as
> well sanded. However I would say that it does not really matter.
> Either way works well.
>
> Chris Feller
>
>  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Paquette"
> <robertpaquette@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, everyone,
> > I've joined the two sheets of plywood, end to end. With the rough
> > side of the joined sheets facing up, I've laid out the lines as per
> > the plans. Now my question is, will the rough side be inside or
> > outside the boat? I plan on starting my cuts tomorrow morning, so
> > I've decided to ask the board before starting. My take on the plans
> > is the bottom bilge shape is the starboard side, and the bottom side
> > panel is the port side. Is that correct? Does it matter? Of
> > course, I would like the rough side of the plywood to be inside. Any
> > Toto builders, or someone with the Toto plans out there, that can
> help me?
> > Robert
> >
> 0 Attachment
If you laid out the sides as mirror images of each other then you
could put the boat together either way. I always visualize putting
them together after drawing them. That way I don't end up with two
right sides or two left ones.
Chris Feller
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Paquette"
<robertpaquette@...> wrote:>
Any
> Hi, Chris,
>
> My question remains. As laid out on the plan sheet, if I've scribed
> the lines on the rough side. Will the rough side end up being inside
> or outside.
>
> Robert
>
>  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Feller" <chrisbfeller@> wrote:
> >
> > I usually put the rough side on the outside when I build plywood
> > boats. It is easier to fill the holes and smooth it that way. Also
> > there is usually more material on the rough side since it is not as
> > well sanded. However I would say that it does not really matter.
> > Either way works well.
> >
> > Chris Feller
> >
> >  In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Paquette"
> > <robertpaquette@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, everyone,
> > > I've joined the two sheets of plywood, end to end. With the rough
> > > side of the joined sheets facing up, I've laid out the lines as per
> > > the plans. Now my question is, will the rough side be inside or
> > > outside the boat? I plan on starting my cuts tomorrow morning, so
> > > I've decided to ask the board before starting. My take on the plans
> > > is the bottom bilge shape is the starboard side, and the bottom side
> > > panel is the port side. Is that correct? Does it matter? Of
> > > course, I would like the rough side of the plywood to be inside.
> > > Toto builders, or someone with the Toto plans out there, that can
> > help me?
> > > Robert
> > >
> >
> 0 Attachment
I think the problem is that we don't know how you laid them out. If
you drew them both at the same time, in a mirror image, then it's easy
to tip them up so the rough side is inside. With your drawn lines
inside it's easy to place the frames.
First I fill the dips or knot holes in the rough side and sand them
before I put the lines down. I usually draw out one side, cut it out
and then flop it over and draw the second side by tracing around the
first side. This cuts down on the measuring. Then I put the smooth
side outside. That way I get a yacht finish that everyone can see.
(Oh. You didn't believe that? You heard that my finish jobs are great
from 50' feet away?...true.) But I do start with the smooth side
outside.
Reed 0 Attachment
Hi Robert,
Hopefully when you got done cutting this weekend, you ended up with
something like the top photo on this page:
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/toto_1.htm , perhaps with the panels
already scarfed in the middle. Once you are at this point, it's
completely up to you which side goes in or out.
I like to put the bad side out, mainly because nowadays I glass every
boat. I didn't glass the outside of my first Toto, but I did on my
second and it's actually easier to do that way, in my view. Since
Toto is so small, it's simple to omit taping the outside seams and
just glass the whole exterior instead. Doing so requires that you
tape the inside seams first, building "right side up" to start.
On the other hand, if you don't want to glass the exterior, but you
are planning to deck both ends of the boat, putting the bad side in
means you can hide more of the rough panel faces under the fore and
aft decks, and not worry about smoothing out those areas.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm 0 Attachment
 In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Paquette" <robertpaquette@...>
wrote:>
Robert... I agree that if you are using AB, or one side rough plywood,
it makes sense to put the bad side out, as it is much easier to fair
the outer surface than the inner. look at the totos on my site:
http://www.meyerboatworks.com and see if the first six photos answer
you question(s).>
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