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Re: First reaction to Michalak designs

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  • mrballast
    Funny, but I d have to say the same thing about Jim s designs. When I was looking for plans for my first boat, a sailing skiff, I immediately dismissed Jim s
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 30, 2006
      Funny, but I'd have to say the same thing about Jim's designs. When I
      was looking for plans for my first boat, a sailing skiff, I
      immediately dismissed Jim's boats as ugly and 'clunky'. Later, I
      bought his book and built the QT Skiff with one of the students at my
      school. I was really impressed. I'm finishing the Normsboat (for me)
      and can't wait to get it on the water. Don't know what happened, but
      now I find his designs clean, efficient, and elegant. Part of that
      change may be that his designs seem to look better in person than in
      drawings, but maybe that's just me. And further thanks to Chuck at
      Duckworks--I've ordered often from him with nary a fumble. Great
      folks to do business with.



      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > You know, that was my first reaction to his designs too. But the
      more I compared to other designs, the more I saw the elegant
      simplicity. The lack of any unneeded stuff is what leads to the
      spirited performance from boats that are quite inexpensive and
      low-tech. I think Jim only achieves it by being very rigorous about
      form following function.
      >
      > It seems to me that a lot of boat designs start with how it will
      be built, or how it should look. Better designers, including Jim,
      start with how it will be USED. It makes a big difference. Jim
      illustrates this with an extreme example somewhere in his back issues
      archives, about the guy on his home lake with the 11'-draft ex-racer
      that can seldom leave its slip!
      >
      > --Rob
      >
      >
      > Re: Centerboard locations (autorelease clamcleat)
      > Posted by: "Nels" arvent@... recree8
      > Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:56 pm ((PST))
      >
      > Great responses folks - thanks again.
      >
      > You know - at one time I sort of passed by on Jim's designs thinking
      > they were rather simplistic copies of my hero Phil Bolger.
      >
      > Now I view them more as elegant and well thought out designs and I am
      > very impressed.
      >
      > And I am also very grateful to Duckworks as a great source of
      > materials and hardware and that complement his designs:-)
      >
      > Nels
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Chris Curtis
      Can you put up some pictures of your Normsboat I have always wanted to see what one really looked like (as opposed to the Drawings! Chris Curtis ... Chris
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
        Can you put up some pictures of your "Normsboat" I have always
        wanted to see what one really looked like (as opposed to the Drawings!

        Chris Curtis



        On Nov 30, 2006, at 5:27 PM, mrballast wrote:

        > Funny, but I'd have to say the same thing about Jim's designs. When I
        > was looking for plans for my first boat, a sailing skiff, I
        > immediately dismissed Jim's boats as ugly and 'clunky'. Later, I
        > bought his book and built the QT Skiff with one of the students at my
        > school. I was really impressed. I'm finishing the Normsboat (for me)
        > and can't wait to get it on the water. Don't know what happened, but
        > now I find his designs clean, efficient, and elegant. Part of that
        > change may be that his designs seem to look better in person than in
        > drawings, but maybe that's just me. And further thanks to Chuck at
        > Duckworks--I've ordered often from him with nary a fumble. Great
        > folks to do business with.
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > You know, that was my first reaction to his designs too. But the
        > more I compared to other designs, the more I saw the elegant
        > simplicity. The lack of any unneeded stuff is what leads to the
        > spirited performance from boats that are quite inexpensive and
        > low-tech. I think Jim only achieves it by being very rigorous about
        > form following function.
        > >
        > > It seems to me that a lot of boat designs start with how it will
        > be built, or how it should look. Better designers, including Jim,
        > start with how it will be USED. It makes a big difference. Jim
        > illustrates this with an extreme example somewhere in his back issues
        > archives, about the guy on his home lake with the 11'-draft ex-racer
        > that can seldom leave its slip!
        > >
        > > --Rob
        > >
        > >
        > > Re: Centerboard locations (autorelease clamcleat)
        > > Posted by: "Nels" arvent@... recree8
        > > Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:56 pm ((PST))
        > >
        > > Great responses folks - thanks again.
        > >
        > > You know - at one time I sort of passed by on Jim's designs thinking
        > > they were rather simplistic copies of my hero Phil Bolger.
        > >
        > > Now I view them more as elegant and well thought out designs and
        > I am
        > > very impressed.
        > >
        > > And I am also very grateful to Duckworks as a great source of
        > > materials and hardware and that complement his designs:-)
        > >
        > > Nels
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >






        Chris Curtis
        Sandpoint Computers
        Office 208-265-1608
        Cell 208-610-3062
      • Rob Rohde-Szudy
        I think it s a pretty common first reaction to Jim s designs. Part of it is that you re exactly right about them looking a LOT better in person. Jim s
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
          I think it's a pretty common first reaction to Jim's designs. Part of it is that you're exactly right about them looking a LOT better in person. Jim's engineering drawings certainly don't do them justice. Hell, even Jim has to make models to "see" them better.

          Another part, though, is that we're just not used to seeing boats that are purpose designed as beach cruisers for amateur construction. Most of the boats we see are production boats patterned on slick high-tech racing designs that spare no expense in rigging. Or they are character boats designed to be encrusted with salty-looking nauticalia. (Hey, I think I just invented a word...) These folks know that looks sell boats. They always sell you a cabin but never mention that almost nobody really uses the cabin, and everyone crowded aft in the cockpit ruins the trim. And they'll never use a commonsense off-center mast for easy entry, because it would look odd to the uninitiated.

          Basically, the big market in the marine world is people who want to HAVE a boat. People who want to GO BOATING are rather a minority, I'm afraid. That's OK. The former help keep cleats cheap for the rest of us. Even smaller is the group who actually go camp cruising regularly enough to justify a purpose designed boat. Those folks can hardly buy anything suited to their needs because the market is so small. So there's Jim.

          And a few others, to be fair. Like John Welsford. But Jim lives in the Great Plains, so he knows what it takes to make a boat sucessful in that vast swath of the USA. Not many designers understand "flyover land" like Jim. The shallow and unimproved ramps, the voracious mosquitoes, the good fishing, the many opportunities for "outlaw camping" on public land. And indeed the desires of outdoorsmen in general. WHY a certain kind of fishing boat should be the way it is.

          There's a reason duck hunters and fishermen took such an interest in Jim's Piccup after he painted it camoflage. It's like the sail became invisible! Another example that always leaps to mind for me is PolePunt. The moment I saw Wojtek's prototype I knew I would eventually build one. (It is amazing how the Vistula looks just like the Lower Wisconsin.) I have a buddy in Iowa who does a lot of hunting and fishing who would probably kill for one of those boats. It will get you to the shallow, weedy fishing spots where the big bass are, and it will also sled those big, corn-fed Iowa deer out of the woods. And if you find yourself on thin ice when you're out there fishing, nothing would be better than to have your shanty built on something like it. It's not going to take on the English channel or anything, but it is ideally suited to the needs of the Midwestern sportsman.

          Damn, I should be writing ad copy. Feel free to use it, Chuck!

          --Rob

          Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
          Posted by: "mrballast" mrballast@... mrballast
          Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:41 pm ((PST))

          Funny, but I'd have to say the same thing about Jim's designs. When I
          was looking for plans for my first boat, a sailing skiff, I
          immediately dismissed Jim's boats as ugly and 'clunky'. Later, I
          bought his book and built the QT Skiff with one of the students at my
          school. I was really impressed. I'm finishing the Normsboat (for me)
          and can't wait to get it on the water. Don't know what happened, but
          now I find his designs clean, efficient, and elegant. Part of that
          change may be that his designs seem to look better in person than in
          drawings, but maybe that's just me. And further thanks to Chuck at
          Duckworks--I've ordered often from him with nary a fumble. Great
          folks to do business with.



          ---------------------------------
          Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • mrballast
          Chris, I m in Washington for a conference and can t post any of my own photos at the moment. I ll try to next week. However, you can access pictures of the
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
            Chris,

            I'm in Washington for a conference and can't post any of my own photos
            at the moment. I'll try to next week. However, you can access
            pictures of the building process of the original Normsboat, which was
            built for Norm Wolfe by Richard Cullison at:
            http://www.cullisonsmallcraft.com/normsboat1page.htm

            Hopes this helps and I'll try to get something in the photo section soon.

            Jim





            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Chris Curtis <ccurtis@...> wrote:
            >
            > Can you put up some pictures of your "Normsboat" I have always
            > wanted to see what one really looked like (as opposed to the Drawings!
            >
            > Chris Curtis
            >
            >
            >
            > On Nov 30, 2006, at 5:27 PM, mrballast wrote:
            >
            > > Funny, but I'd have to say the same thing about Jim's designs. When I
            > > was looking for plans for my first boat, a sailing skiff, I
            > > immediately dismissed Jim's boats as ugly and 'clunky'. Later, I
            > > bought his book and built the QT Skiff with one of the students at my
            > > school. I was really impressed. I'm finishing the Normsboat (for me)
            > > and can't wait to get it on the water. Don't know what happened, but
            > > now I find his designs clean, efficient, and elegant. Part of that
            > > change may be that his designs seem to look better in person than in
            > > drawings, but maybe that's just me. And further thanks to Chuck at
            > > Duckworks--I've ordered often from him with nary a fumble. Great
            > > folks to do business with.
            > >
            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > You know, that was my first reaction to his designs too. But the
            > > more I compared to other designs, the more I saw the elegant
            > > simplicity. The lack of any unneeded stuff is what leads to the
            > > spirited performance from boats that are quite inexpensive and
            > > low-tech. I think Jim only achieves it by being very rigorous about
            > > form following function.
            > > >
            > > > It seems to me that a lot of boat designs start with how it will
            > > be built, or how it should look. Better designers, including Jim,
            > > start with how it will be USED. It makes a big difference. Jim
            > > illustrates this with an extreme example somewhere in his back issues
            > > archives, about the guy on his home lake with the 11'-draft ex-racer
            > > that can seldom leave its slip!
            > > >
            > > > --Rob
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Re: Centerboard locations (autorelease clamcleat)
            > > > Posted by: "Nels" arvent@ recree8
            > > > Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:56 pm ((PST))
            > > >
            > > > Great responses folks - thanks again.
            > > >
            > > > You know - at one time I sort of passed by on Jim's designs thinking
            > > > they were rather simplistic copies of my hero Phil Bolger.
            > > >
            > > > Now I view them more as elegant and well thought out designs and
            > > I am
            > > > very impressed.
            > > >
            > > > And I am also very grateful to Duckworks as a great source of
            > > > materials and hardware and that complement his designs:-)
            > > >
            > > > Nels
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Chris Curtis
            > Sandpoint Computers
            > Office 208-265-1608
            > Cell 208-610-3062
            >
          • mrballast
            Rob, that s a very fine statement on Jim s designs. It expresses much of what I now see in Jim s work. I sail primarily on the Tennessee River and on
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
              Rob, that's a very fine statement on Jim's designs. It expresses much
              of what I now see in Jim's work. I sail primarily on the Tennessee
              River and on surrounding lakes and when I began considering the actual
              real life use the boat would get, Jim's designs made very real sense.
              It's a wonderful bonus that I can now see them as beautiful too.
              Thanks again for your comments, and if we ever meet I'll buy you a
              beer for inventing, "nauticalia". Great word!

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I think it's a pretty common first reaction to Jim's designs. Part
              of it is that you're exactly right about them looking a LOT better in
              person. Jim's engineering drawings certainly don't do them justice.
              Hell, even Jim has to make models to "see" them better.
              >
              > Another part, though, is that we're just not used to seeing boats
              that are purpose designed as beach cruisers for amateur construction.
              Most of the boats we see are production boats patterned on slick
              high-tech racing designs that spare no expense in rigging. Or they are
              character boats designed to be encrusted with salty-looking
              nauticalia. (Hey, I think I just invented a word...) These folks know
              that looks sell boats. They always sell you a cabin but never mention
              that almost nobody really uses the cabin, and everyone crowded aft in
              the cockpit ruins the trim. And they'll never use a commonsense
              off-center mast for easy entry, because it would look odd to the
              uninitiated.
              >
              > Basically, the big market in the marine world is people who want
              to HAVE a boat. People who want to GO BOATING are rather a minority,
              I'm afraid. That's OK. The former help keep cleats cheap for the rest
              of us. Even smaller is the group who actually go camp cruising
              regularly enough to justify a purpose designed boat. Those folks can
              hardly buy anything suited to their needs because the market is so
              small. So there's Jim.
              >
              > And a few others, to be fair. Like John Welsford. But Jim lives in
              the Great Plains, so he knows what it takes to make a boat sucessful
              in that vast swath of the USA. Not many designers understand "flyover
              land" like Jim. The shallow and unimproved ramps, the voracious
              mosquitoes, the good fishing, the many opportunities for "outlaw
              camping" on public land. And indeed the desires of outdoorsmen in
              general. WHY a certain kind of fishing boat should be the way it is.
              >
              > There's a reason duck hunters and fishermen took such an interest
              in Jim's Piccup after he painted it camoflage. It's like the sail
              became invisible! Another example that always leaps to mind for me is
              PolePunt. The moment I saw Wojtek's prototype I knew I would
              eventually build one. (It is amazing how the Vistula looks just like
              the Lower Wisconsin.) I have a buddy in Iowa who does a lot of hunting
              and fishing who would probably kill for one of those boats. It will
              get you to the shallow, weedy fishing spots where the big bass are,
              and it will also sled those big, corn-fed Iowa deer out of the woods.
              And if you find yourself on thin ice when you're out there fishing,
              nothing would be better than to have your shanty built on something
              like it. It's not going to take on the English channel or anything,
              but it is ideally suited to the needs of the Midwestern sportsman.
              >
              > Damn, I should be writing ad copy. Feel free to use it, Chuck!
              >
              > --Rob
              >
              > Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
              > Posted by: "mrballast" mrballast@... mrballast
              > Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:41 pm ((PST))
              >
              > Funny, but I'd have to say the same thing about Jim's designs. When I
              > was looking for plans for my first boat, a sailing skiff, I
              > immediately dismissed Jim's boats as ugly and 'clunky'. Later, I
              > bought his book and built the QT Skiff with one of the students at my
              > school. I was really impressed. I'm finishing the Normsboat (for me)
              > and can't wait to get it on the water. Don't know what happened, but
              > now I find his designs clean, efficient, and elegant. Part of that
              > change may be that his designs seem to look better in person than in
              > drawings, but maybe that's just me. And further thanks to Chuck at
              > Duckworks--I've ordered often from him with nary a fumble. Great
              > folks to do business with.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Nels
              ... I think it is worth noting that Jim was originally influenced by Phil Bolger and in fact built the first prototype Birdwatcher I believe. As well as
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "mrballast" <mrballast@...> wrote:
                >
                > Rob, that's a very fine statement on Jim's designs. It expresses much
                > of what I now see in Jim's work.

                I think it is worth noting that Jim was originally influenced by Phil
                Bolger and in fact built the first prototype Birdwatcher I believe. As
                well as Bolger's Jinni and maybe some others.

                Also he built them according to plan and THEN played around with the
                designs afterwards. That way he comparee the changes with the original.

                Bolger has a great deal of respect for him, especially Jim's work with
                simple sail designs as well as investigating Bolger's "seas of peas
                theory" for sharpies. In a way Bolger kind of branched off into more
                complicated designs and left the small simple designs field open for Jim.

                In a recent letter to a plans buyer, Bolger told him he considered
                Birdwatcher his best small boat design. I notice in his latest upgrade
                to Birwatcher II it still calls for external chine logs. I am quite
                certain that he feels they do give some added lateral plan when
                sailing in skinny water. And of course make the interior easier to
                maintain and clean.
              • Stefan Probst
                ... How much would virtual models (e.g. FREE!ship) help? Stefan
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
                  --- Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Part of it is that you're exactly right about them looking a LOT
                  > better in person. ...
                  > Hell, even Jim has to make models to "see" them better.

                  How much would virtual models (e.g. FREE!ship) help?

                  Stefan
                • wwbaginski
                  Hi Rob, what a nice essay you have posted. Let me add another sentence to this discussion, it sounds: less is more. This is the difference between Bolger and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 1, 2006
                    Hi Rob, what a nice essay you have posted. Let me add another sentence
                    to this discussion, it sounds: less is more.

                    This is the difference between Bolger and Michalak way of designing.
                    Bolger sometimes makes designs for look, Jim never does in my opinion.
                    They are good looking themselves, just because form follows function.
                    Less is more means also: the simpler is your boat, the more you
                    cruise. This is my local lesson from the Vistula river. As you may be
                    remember first we've build campjon and it was good choice for novices,
                    who knew nothing about boatbuilding and river boating. Next, we
                    planned to build petesboat after getting the experience in both areas,
                    to sail to Amsterdam or another edge of Europe (it is possible thanks
                    to paneuropean canal system) The Vistula turned out as very shallow
                    river and it was difficult to use campjon at low states of water level
                    (almost all the summertime), but on the other hand the river turned
                    out to be beauty and fascinating as well! No need to sail away
                    hundreds kilometers . I decided to build polepunt, to penetrate
                    shallowenesses and wild forgotten corners. Our trip downstream was
                    fantastic, but I had to give up rowing upstream. So I decided to build
                    robote: now I can go anywhere, any time (OK, except the time of iced
                    river). I keep robote on the floating stage at our marina, to launch
                    her or slip out with one hand. A pair of oars don't need a trailer.
                    Robote is fantastic: every time I row I don't want to stop.

                    Rob, because I canceled petesboat project this summer eventually after
                    I've asked Jim to design cat-ketch rig for petesboat, I asked him
                    again to stop making the detailed drawings of it, and to replace them
                    with sail rig for polepunt, because I think she will go upstream with
                    a sail . Jim agreed . Looks my next project will be polepunt sail
                    version. It can be interesting for you , either. I'll give a report to
                    Chuck nearest spring I hope :-)

                    Best regards.

                    Wojtek

                    PS. one could say that campjon project was wrong choice but I think it
                    was really perfect choice for unknown water area, giving us safety,
                    what is the first thing on our "boating" minds. Campjon is still in
                    use, when there is a possibility to get more people to share our joy
                    of beautiful river cruising with them.
                  • GarthAB
                    ... Rob -- Reminds me of a story told to me by a friend who managed a running store. The majority of the people who came in did not want to hear about
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 2, 2006
                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
                      wrote:
                      >These folks know that looks sell boats.

                      Rob --

                      Reminds me of a story told to me by a friend who managed a running
                      store. The majority of the people who came in did not want to hear
                      about pronation, supination, proper support, cushioning, etc. -- all
                      the variables that determine the right running shoe for the
                      individual, and that that can make a huge difference in your running
                      experience. They wanted to choose their running shoes based on color!

                      I love the process of accepting and then loving Michalak designs. It
                      starts with shedding your preconceived notions of what a boat is
                      supposed to look like. It leads to examining your own self -- are you
                      actually trying to impress others by the type of boat you own? And it
                      ends with possession of secret knowledge -- my "cheap, ugly" plywood
                      boat is ten times better for nearly all uses (except crossing the
                      Atlantic) than all those six-figure fiberglass cruiser/racers, most of
                      which never cross the Atlantic. And the revelation that you don't need
                      to let your boat limit your cruising grounds -- i.e. all those sleek
                      white creations with 5' + draft have never known the joys of sailing
                      right up onto the beach and getting out to play, or even just sailing
                      close enough to shore to enjoy the scenery. Ultimately it takes a
                      headstrong, self-confident, clear-thinking person to embrace Michalak
                      designs. That's us. ;-)

                      Garth
                    • John and Kathy Trussell
                      I ve built 2 of Jim s designs (Mixer and Toon 19) and I m currently working on a third (LHF17, which is a bit of a departure for Jim). I ve owned a lot of
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 2, 2006
                        I've built 2 of Jim's designs (Mixer and Toon 19) and I'm currently working on a third (LHF17, which is a bit of a departure for Jim). I've owned a lot of boats during a lengthy boating career and I have reached a number of conclusions (or established a number of prejudices). One of these is that the happiest man on the water is the man who has the least boat that meets his needs. The key word here is needs--not wants or dreams or fantasies. Commercial boat builders appeal to wants dreams and fantasies. As a result, they often incorporate features which degrade the boats for the uses they are actually put to in real life. Sloop rigs are grand for racing but they are expensive and unsuitable for many small boats. "Cruisers" are expected to sleep (?) 4, even if they are only 16 ft long! Jim's boats are designed for the way most of us use boats--day boats on sheltered waters with the possibility of a weekend camp/cruise. Others design boats for these purposes, but they tend to be more complex boats. (Another of my conclusions is that the length of time necessary to build a boat varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat.) For getting on the water as quickly, easily, and cheaply as possible, Jim's designs are hard to beat.

                        JohnT
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: GarthAB
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:10 AM
                        Subject: [Michalak] Re: First reaction to Michalak designs


                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
                        wrote:
                        >These folks know that looks sell boats.

                        Rob --

                        Reminds me of a story told to me by a friend who managed a running
                        store. The majority of the people who came in did not want to hear
                        about pronation, supination, proper support, cushioning, etc. -- all
                        the variables that determine the right running shoe for the
                        individual, and that that can make a huge difference in your running
                        experience. They wanted to choose their running shoes based on color!

                        I love the process of accepting and then loving Michalak designs. It
                        starts with shedding your preconceived notions of what a boat is
                        supposed to look like. It leads to examining your own self -- are you
                        actually trying to impress others by the type of boat you own? And it
                        ends with possession of secret knowledge -- my "cheap, ugly" plywood
                        boat is ten times better for nearly all uses (except crossing the
                        Atlantic) than all those six-figure fiberglass cruiser/racers, most of
                        which never cross the Atlantic. And the revelation that you don't need
                        to let your boat limit your cruising grounds -- i.e. all those sleek
                        white creations with 5' + draft have never known the joys of sailing
                        right up onto the beach and getting out to play, or even just sailing
                        close enough to shore to enjoy the scenery. Ultimately it takes a
                        headstrong, self-confident, clear-thinking person to embrace Michalak
                        designs. That's us. ;-)

                        Garth






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                      • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                        Yeah, Jim built a Glouster Light Dory and I think a Payson canoe as well. Interesting about Bolger s thoughts on the Birdwatcher! --Rob Re: First reaction to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 4, 2006
                          Yeah, Jim built a Glouster Light Dory and I think a Payson canoe as well.

                          Interesting about Bolger's thoughts on the Birdwatcher!

                          --Rob


                          Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
                          Posted by: "Nels" arvent@... recree8
                          Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 5:05 pm ((PST))

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "mrballast" wrote:
                          >
                          > Rob, that's a very fine statement on Jim's designs. It expresses much
                          > of what I now see in Jim's work.

                          I think it is worth noting that Jim was originally influenced by Phil
                          Bolger and in fact built the first prototype Birdwatcher I believe. As
                          well as Bolger's Jinni and maybe some others.

                          Also he built them according to plan and THEN played around with the
                          designs afterwards. That way he comparee the changes with the original.

                          Bolger has a great deal of respect for him, especially Jim's work with
                          simple sail designs as well as investigating Bolger's "seas of peas
                          theory" for sharpies. In a way Bolger kind of branched off into more
                          complicated designs and left the small simple designs field open for
                          Jim.

                          In a recent letter to a plans buyer, Bolger told him he considered
                          Birdwatcher his best small boat design. I notice in his latest upgrade
                          to Birwatcher II it still calls for external chine logs. I am quite
                          certain that he feels they do give some added lateral plan when
                          sailing in skinny water. And of course make the interior easier to
                          maintain and clean.


                          __________________________________________________
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                          Well said, Wojtek. And you have no idea how much I want to see how the polepunt sailing rig works! How cool would that be?! But I d say the way to go upstream
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 4, 2006
                            Well said, Wojtek. And you have no idea how much I want to see how the polepunt sailing rig works! How cool would that be?! But I'd say the way to go upstream in a polepunt is using a pole in the shallows. Years ago that was a common sight on the Mississippi and other American rivers.

                            Dammit, now I really do have to build one to pole on the Lower Wisconsin.

                            --Rob


                            Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
                            Posted by: "wwbaginski" wwbaginski@... wwbaginski
                            Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 11:45 pm ((PST))

                            Hi Rob, what a nice essay you have posted. Let me add another sentence
                            to this discussion, it sounds: less is more.

                            This is the difference between Bolger and Michalak way of designing.
                            Bolger sometimes makes designs for look, Jim never does in my opinion.
                            They are good looking themselves, just because form follows function.
                            Less is more means also: the simpler is your boat, the more you
                            cruise. This is my local lesson from the Vistula river. As you may be
                            remember first we've build campjon and it was good choice for novices,
                            who knew nothing about boatbuilding and river boating. Next, we
                            planned to build petesboat after getting the experience in both areas,
                            to sail to Amsterdam or another edge of Europe (it is possible thanks
                            to paneuropean canal system) The Vistula turned out as very shallow
                            river and it was difficult to use campjon at low states of water level
                            (almost all the summertime), but on the other hand the river turned
                            out to be beauty and fascinating as well! No need to sail away
                            hundreds kilometers . I decided to build polepunt, to penetrate
                            shallowenesses and wild forgotten corners. Our trip downstream was
                            fantastic, but I had to give up rowing upstream. So I decided to build
                            robote: now I can go anywhere, any time (OK, except the time of iced
                            river). I keep robote on the floating stage at our marina, to launch
                            her or slip out with one hand. A pair of oars don't need a trailer.
                            Robote is fantastic: every time I row I don't want to stop.

                            Rob, because I canceled petesboat project this summer eventually after
                            I've asked Jim to design cat-ketch rig for petesboat, I asked him
                            again to stop making the detailed drawings of it, and to replace them
                            with sail rig for polepunt, because I think she will go upstream with
                            a sail . Jim agreed . Looks my next project will be polepunt sail
                            version. It can be interesting for you , either. I'll give a report to
                            Chuck nearest spring I hope :-)

                            Best regards.

                            Wojtek

                            PS. one could say that campjon project was wrong choice but I think it
                            was really perfect choice for unknown water area, giving us safety,
                            what is the first thing on our "boating" minds. Campjon is still in
                            use, when there is a possibility to get more people to share our joy
                            of beautiful river cruising with them.



                            ---------------------------------
                            Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                            Sort of, but not entirely. Certainly it s a lot better than the plans drawings, in terms of getting the shape into your brain. But you can t beat seeing the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 4, 2006
                              Sort of, but not entirely. Certainly it's a lot better than the plans drawings, in terms of getting the shape into your brain. But you can't beat seeing the real thing. Even with figures it's hard to get the scale of something until you're right there with it. Like I had no idea how BIG an AF4 is until I stood next to one. --Rob


                              Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
                              Posted by: "Stefan Probst" stefan.probst@opticom.v-nam.net
                              stefanhanoi
                              Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 10:33 pm ((PST))

                              --- Rob Rohde-Szudy wrote:
                              >
                              > Part of it is that you're exactly right about them looking a LOT
                              > better in person. ...
                              > Hell, even Jim has to make models to "see" them better.

                              How much would virtual models (e.g. FREE!ship) help?

                              Stefan



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Nels
                              ... Yes - I think they would help a lot. Jim did some for Dany Jay in one of his newsletter and it was a revelation as to how nice that design looks. I would
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 4, 2006
                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > --- Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Part of it is that you're exactly right about them looking a LOT
                                > > better in person. ...
                                > > Hell, even Jim has to make models to "see" them better.
                                >
                                > How much would virtual models (e.g. FREE!ship) help?
                                >
                                > Stefan
                                >
                                Yes - I think they would help a lot. Jim did some for Dany Jay in one
                                of his newsletter and it was a revelation as to how nice that design
                                looks.

                                I would love to see one for Twister and also Jukebox 3 - that funky
                                little pilothouse model!

                                Can a scale figure of a person be shown beside the 3-D view?

                                Nels
                              • Stefan Probst
                                ... Will have to lookup that one. ... OK, I ll put them on my waiting list ... assuming that I find suitable line plans. ... No problem. Just have to find
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 4, 2006
                                  --- "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                  > Jim did some for Dany Jay in one
                                  > of his newsletter and it was a revelation as to how nice that design
                                  > looks.

                                  Will have to lookup that one.

                                  >
                                  > I would love to see one for Twister and also Jukebox 3 - that funky
                                  > little pilothouse model!

                                  OK, I'll put them on my "waiting list" ... assuming that I find
                                  suitable line plans.

                                  > Can a scale figure of a person be shown beside the 3-D view?

                                  No problem. Just have to find one. ;)
                                  There is one very neat "Guy with a Martini" model around, but that
                                  would be too complicated. I made a simple one (sitting guy) for one of
                                  my last models, but that one is again maybe a bit too simple.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Stefan
                                • Joe Tribulato
                                  I m glad You asked. Here is a photo of an AF4 model (not exactly to scale but pretty close) with a scale figure cut from a magazine and glued to light
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 5, 2006
                                    I'm glad You asked. Here is a photo of an AF4 model (not exactly to
                                    scale but pretty close) with a scale figure cut from a magazine and
                                    glued to light cardboard. For me this exercise is a must before
                                    building a boat, or just for the fun of it.
                                    http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/view/7f60?b=1

                                    Joe T

                                    > Can a scale figure of a person be shown beside the 3-D view?
                                    >
                                    > Nels
                                  • wwbaginski
                                    Rob, pole boating was common here on the vistula too. Alas no original pictures to see. I intend to use a pole here too. What I like to look at now, is that
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 6, 2006
                                      Rob, pole boating was common here on the vistula too. Alas no
                                      original pictures to see. I intend to use a pole here too. What I
                                      like to look at now, is that nice photo of florida everglades pole
                                      riders, which `ve just I uploaded to Photos. Strange kind of a canoe.
                                      Interesting inspiration for another instant boat?

                                      Wojtek


                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well said, Wojtek. And you have no idea how much I want to see how
                                      the polepunt sailing rig works! How cool would that be?! But I'd say
                                      the way to go upstream in a polepunt is using a pole in the shallows.
                                      Years ago that was a common sight on the Mississippi and other
                                      American rivers.
                                      >
                                      > Dammit, now I really do have to build one to pole on the Lower
                                      Wisconsin.
                                      >
                                      > --Rob
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
                                      > Posted by: "wwbaginski" wwbaginski@... wwbaginski
                                      > Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 11:45 pm ((PST))
                                      >
                                      > Hi Rob, what a nice essay you have posted. Let me add another
                                      sentence
                                      > to this discussion, it sounds: less is more.
                                      >
                                      > This is the difference between Bolger and Michalak way of designing.
                                      > Bolger sometimes makes designs for look, Jim never does in my
                                      opinion.
                                      > They are good looking themselves, just because form follows
                                      function.
                                      > Less is more means also: the simpler is your boat, the more you
                                      > cruise. This is my local lesson from the Vistula river. As you may
                                      be
                                      > remember first we've build campjon and it was good choice for
                                      novices,
                                      > who knew nothing about boatbuilding and river boating. Next, we
                                      > planned to build petesboat after getting the experience in both
                                      areas,
                                      > to sail to Amsterdam or another edge of Europe (it is possible
                                      thanks
                                      > to paneuropean canal system) The Vistula turned out as very shallow
                                      > river and it was difficult to use campjon at low states of water
                                      level
                                      > (almost all the summertime), but on the other hand the river turned
                                      > out to be beauty and fascinating as well! No need to sail away
                                      > hundreds kilometers . I decided to build polepunt, to penetrate
                                      > shallowenesses and wild forgotten corners. Our trip downstream was
                                      > fantastic, but I had to give up rowing upstream. So I decided to
                                      build
                                      > robote: now I can go anywhere, any time (OK, except the time of iced
                                      > river). I keep robote on the floating stage at our marina, to launch
                                      > her or slip out with one hand. A pair of oars don't need a trailer.
                                      > Robote is fantastic: every time I row I don't want to stop.
                                      >
                                      > Rob, because I canceled petesboat project this summer eventually
                                      after
                                      > I've asked Jim to design cat-ketch rig for petesboat, I asked him
                                      > again to stop making the detailed drawings of it, and to replace
                                      them
                                      > with sail rig for polepunt, because I think she will go upstream
                                      with
                                      > a sail . Jim agreed . Looks my next project will be polepunt sail
                                      > version. It can be interesting for you , either. I'll give a report
                                      to
                                      > Chuck nearest spring I hope :-)
                                      >
                                      > Best regards.
                                      >
                                      > Wojtek
                                      >
                                      > PS. one could say that campjon project was wrong choice but I think
                                      it
                                      > was really perfect choice for unknown water area, giving us safety,
                                      > what is the first thing on our "boating" minds. Campjon is still in
                                      > use, when there is a possibility to get more people to share our joy
                                      > of beautiful river cruising with them.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------------------
                                      > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • s4a9m8
                                      Nels, Not a Jukebox 3, but close. I created an album in the Photos section, Jukebox 2 (MN) that shows the profile and top view of a Jukebox 2 I m working on.
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 17, 2006
                                        Nels,

                                        Not a Jukebox 3, but close. I created an album in the Photos section,
                                        Jukebox 2 (MN) that shows the profile and top view of a Jukebox 2 I'm
                                        working on. Since these were taken, the boat has been removed from
                                        this fixture and lowered to blocks on the floor. My workspace is
                                        unheated, so the winter will be spent fabricating and fitting the
                                        forward deck, cabin and cockpit components.

                                        Ron
                                      • chrisbfeller
                                        Ron, The boat looks like it is coming along nicely. Jukebox 2 is one of the designs in the running for my next boat after Philsboat. I look forward to
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 17, 2006
                                          Ron,
                                          The boat looks like it is coming along nicely. Jukebox 2 is one
                                          of the designs in the running for my next boat after Philsboat. I
                                          look forward to hearing about your progress. Please keep on posting
                                          pictures and updates.

                                          Chris



                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "s4a9m8" <sammi13@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Nels,
                                          >
                                          > Not a Jukebox 3, but close. I created an album in the Photos section,
                                          > Jukebox 2 (MN) that shows the profile and top view of a Jukebox 2 I'm
                                          > working on. Since these were taken, the boat has been removed from
                                          > this fixture and lowered to blocks on the floor. My workspace is
                                          > unheated, so the winter will be spent fabricating and fitting the
                                          > forward deck, cabin and cockpit components.
                                          >
                                          > Ron
                                          >
                                        • m_doles
                                          I don t know what kind of pole you are planning on using,but years ago i lived in Louisiana. There they used a pole with two flukes on the end. They spread
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 19, 2006
                                            I don't know what kind of pole you are planning on using,but years
                                            ago i lived in Louisiana. There they used a pole with two 'flukes'
                                            on the end. They spread out when the pole was pushed into the mud
                                            and they folded together when the pole was brought up. I think they
                                            were called duck feet. It's been 26 years so my memory isn't very
                                            exact. I do remember they worked quite well.
                                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "wwbaginski" <wwbaginski@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Rob, pole boating was common here on the vistula too. Alas no
                                            > original pictures to see. I intend to use a pole here too. What I
                                            > like to look at now, is that nice photo of florida everglades pole
                                            > riders, which `ve just I uploaded to Photos. Strange kind of a
                                            canoe.
                                            > Interesting inspiration for another instant boat?
                                            >
                                            > Wojtek
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Well said, Wojtek. And you have no idea how much I want to see
                                            how
                                            > the polepunt sailing rig works! How cool would that be?! But I'd
                                            say
                                            > the way to go upstream in a polepunt is using a pole in the
                                            shallows.
                                            > Years ago that was a common sight on the Mississippi and other
                                            > American rivers.
                                            > >
                                            > > Dammit, now I really do have to build one to pole on the Lower
                                            > Wisconsin.
                                            > >
                                            > > --Rob
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
                                            > > Posted by: "wwbaginski" wwbaginski@ wwbaginski
                                            > > Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 11:45 pm ((PST))
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Rob, what a nice essay you have posted. Let me add another
                                            > sentence
                                            > > to this discussion, it sounds: less is more.
                                            > >
                                            > > This is the difference between Bolger and Michalak way of
                                            designing.
                                            > > Bolger sometimes makes designs for look, Jim never does in my
                                            > opinion.
                                            > > They are good looking themselves, just because form follows
                                            > function.
                                            > > Less is more means also: the simpler is your boat, the more you
                                            > > cruise. This is my local lesson from the Vistula river. As you
                                            may
                                            > be
                                            > > remember first we've build campjon and it was good choice for
                                            > novices,
                                            > > who knew nothing about boatbuilding and river boating. Next, we
                                            > > planned to build petesboat after getting the experience in both
                                            > areas,
                                            > > to sail to Amsterdam or another edge of Europe (it is possible
                                            > thanks
                                            > > to paneuropean canal system) The Vistula turned out as very
                                            shallow
                                            > > river and it was difficult to use campjon at low states of water
                                            > level
                                            > > (almost all the summertime), but on the other hand the river
                                            turned
                                            > > out to be beauty and fascinating as well! No need to sail away
                                            > > hundreds kilometers . I decided to build polepunt, to penetrate
                                            > > shallowenesses and wild forgotten corners. Our trip downstream
                                            was
                                            > > fantastic, but I had to give up rowing upstream. So I decided to
                                            > build
                                            > > robote: now I can go anywhere, any time (OK, except the time of
                                            iced
                                            > > river). I keep robote on the floating stage at our marina, to
                                            launch
                                            > > her or slip out with one hand. A pair of oars don't need a
                                            trailer.
                                            > > Robote is fantastic: every time I row I don't want to stop.
                                            > >
                                            > > Rob, because I canceled petesboat project this summer eventually
                                            > after
                                            > > I've asked Jim to design cat-ketch rig for petesboat, I asked
                                            him
                                            > > again to stop making the detailed drawings of it, and to replace
                                            > them
                                            > > with sail rig for polepunt, because I think she will go upstream
                                            > with
                                            > > a sail . Jim agreed . Looks my next project will be polepunt sail
                                            > > version. It can be interesting for you , either. I'll give a
                                            report
                                            > to
                                            > > Chuck nearest spring I hope :-)
                                            > >
                                            > > Best regards.
                                            > >
                                            > > Wojtek
                                            > >
                                            > > PS. one could say that campjon project was wrong choice but I
                                            think
                                            > it
                                            > > was really perfect choice for unknown water area, giving us
                                            safety,
                                            > > what is the first thing on our "boating" minds. Campjon is still
                                            in
                                            > > use, when there is a possibility to get more people to share our
                                            joy
                                            > > of beautiful river cruising with them.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ---------------------------------
                                            > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • wwbaginski
                                            Some time ago I posted 2 photos of the pushing oar I,ve found at our marina. They are here and they are named vistula oar 1 and 2 :
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 19, 2006
                                              Some time ago I posted 2 photos of the pushing oar I,ve found at our
                                              marina. They are here and they are named "vistula oar 1 and 2":

                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak_Boats_Photos_Only/files/polepunt%20prototype/

                                              That oar was much longer than my polepunt!

                                              Wojtek


                                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "m_doles" <m_doles@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I don't know what kind of pole you are planning on using,but years
                                              > ago i lived in Louisiana. There they used a pole with two 'flukes'
                                              > on the end. They spread out when the pole was pushed into the mud
                                              > and they folded together when the pole was brought up. I think they
                                              > were called duck feet. It's been 26 years so my memory isn't very
                                              > exact. I do remember they worked quite well.
                                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "wwbaginski" <wwbaginski@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Rob, pole boating was common here on the vistula too. Alas no
                                              > > original pictures to see. I intend to use a pole here too. What I
                                              > > like to look at now, is that nice photo of florida everglades pole
                                              > > riders, which `ve just I uploaded to Photos. Strange kind of a
                                              > canoe.
                                              > > Interesting inspiration for another instant boat?
                                              > >
                                              > > Wojtek
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Well said, Wojtek. And you have no idea how much I want to see
                                              > how
                                              > > the polepunt sailing rig works! How cool would that be?! But I'd
                                              > say
                                              > > the way to go upstream in a polepunt is using a pole in the
                                              > shallows.
                                              > > Years ago that was a common sight on the Mississippi and other
                                              > > American rivers.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Dammit, now I really do have to build one to pole on the Lower
                                              > > Wisconsin.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --Rob
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Re: First reaction to Michalak designs
                                              > > > Posted by: "wwbaginski" wwbaginski@ wwbaginski
                                              > > > Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 11:45 pm ((PST))
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi Rob, what a nice essay you have posted. Let me add another
                                              > > sentence
                                              > > > to this discussion, it sounds: less is more.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > This is the difference between Bolger and Michalak way of
                                              > designing.
                                              > > > Bolger sometimes makes designs for look, Jim never does in my
                                              > > opinion.
                                              > > > They are good looking themselves, just because form follows
                                              > > function.
                                              > > > Less is more means also: the simpler is your boat, the more you
                                              > > > cruise. This is my local lesson from the Vistula river. As you
                                              > may
                                              > > be
                                              > > > remember first we've build campjon and it was good choice for
                                              > > novices,
                                              > > > who knew nothing about boatbuilding and river boating. Next, we
                                              > > > planned to build petesboat after getting the experience in both
                                              > > areas,
                                              > > > to sail to Amsterdam or another edge of Europe (it is possible
                                              > > thanks
                                              > > > to paneuropean canal system) The Vistula turned out as very
                                              > shallow
                                              > > > river and it was difficult to use campjon at low states of water
                                              > > level
                                              > > > (almost all the summertime), but on the other hand the river
                                              > turned
                                              > > > out to be beauty and fascinating as well! No need to sail away
                                              > > > hundreds kilometers . I decided to build polepunt, to penetrate
                                              > > > shallowenesses and wild forgotten corners. Our trip downstream
                                              > was
                                              > > > fantastic, but I had to give up rowing upstream. So I decided to
                                              > > build
                                              > > > robote: now I can go anywhere, any time (OK, except the time of
                                              > iced
                                              > > > river). I keep robote on the floating stage at our marina, to
                                              > launch
                                              > > > her or slip out with one hand. A pair of oars don't need a
                                              > trailer.
                                              > > > Robote is fantastic: every time I row I don't want to stop.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Rob, because I canceled petesboat project this summer eventually
                                              > > after
                                              > > > I've asked Jim to design cat-ketch rig for petesboat, I asked
                                              > him
                                              > > > again to stop making the detailed drawings of it, and to replace
                                              > > them
                                              > > > with sail rig for polepunt, because I think she will go upstream
                                              > > with
                                              > > > a sail . Jim agreed . Looks my next project will be polepunt sail
                                              > > > version. It can be interesting for you , either. I'll give a
                                              > report
                                              > > to
                                              > > > Chuck nearest spring I hope :-)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Best regards.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Wojtek
                                              > > >
                                              > > > PS. one could say that campjon project was wrong choice but I
                                              > think
                                              > > it
                                              > > > was really perfect choice for unknown water area, giving us
                                              > safety,
                                              > > > what is the first thing on our "boating" minds. Campjon is still
                                              > in
                                              > > > use, when there is a possibility to get more people to share our
                                              > joy
                                              > > > of beautiful river cruising with them.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ---------------------------------
                                              > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
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