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design comparisons

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  • pecostx51
    I was just reading both Jim Michalak s site and the article on duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good articles! I like taht type of
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 2, 2006
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      I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
      duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
      articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
      the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
      similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
      motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
      balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
      sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.

      I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
      pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
      about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
      boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
      premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
      I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
      was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
      even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
      to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
      get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
      mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
      and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".

      Anyone want to comment?

      Geoff
    • John and Kathy Trussell
      Geoff--funny you should ask... I recently built and am sorting out the Toon 19 shown in Jim s page under prototypes, so I speak from some experience. Jim
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 2, 2006
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        Geoff--funny you should ask...

        I recently built and am sorting out the Toon 19 shown in Jim's page under prototypes, so I speak from some experience.

        Jim defines his boats as "through the water" and "over the water". His through the water boats have a sharp stem and cut through waves. His over the water boats present a flat bottom to the water--sort of like a pram. The over the water boats may be a little faster in sheltered water but pound in waves (or wakes). Fro;oc 2 is a through the water boat; Toon 2 is an over the water boat.

        The three boats which are more or less similiar in size, material requirements and capabilities are AF-3, Frolic 2, and Toon 2. All are moderately capable day sailors which can be handled by a singlehander or accomodate a couple or maybe even a small family. Jim's boats are pretty tolerant of rig and there is enough information to swap a balanced lug for a sprit rigged leg of mutton on Jim's web site. If you buy a set of plans and ask him, he'll probably draw a balanced lug on Toon 2 or AF-3 for a nominal fee.

        You will observe that Toon 19 has a mizzen and a leg of mutton main. The purpose is to minimize weather helm while reefed or with the lee board partially raised. In addition, it is possible to drop the main and hoist a small jib, sailing under mizzen and jib in heavy going. It should work, but I haven't yet encountered weather which justifies the "storm Jib"

        Any of these boats will meet the needs of a single hander or a couple. I'm old and arthritic, so I value the seats/back rest found on Frolic 2 and Toon 2 (as well as Toon 19). I also prefer the shorter mast on the balanced lug sail to the very long mast on the leg of mutton sail, but that is a matter of personal preference.

        For what it is worth, Toon 19 has a motor well and I don't see why Toon 2 couldn't have one as well. Alternatively, a store bought motor mount on the transom should serve. A Honda 2 hp pushes Toon 19 to hull speed at half throttle, and should work on Frolic 2, AF-3, or Toon 2 as well.

        I rate boats by the number of sheets of plywood necessary to plank the side. A PDR is a one sheet boat, limited to 8 ft LOA. The next step up is a 2 sheet boat with 16 ft long panels, producing a 15' to 15 1/2' boat. The bigger boat is much more capable, commodious, and faster than the 8 ' boat. A 2 1/2 sheet boat can be around 19' (i.e. Toon 19), but the thicker, longer(heavier and floppier) plywood takes a 19' boat to the upper limit of a single handers' building capabilities (or at least mine). If I build another boat (Toon 19 is my tenth effort), it will be a 2 sheet boat.

        Have fun and holler if you have any questions.

        John T
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: pecostx51
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:38 PM
        Subject: [Michalak] design comparisons


        I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
        duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
        articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
        the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
        similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
        motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
        balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
        sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.

        I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
        pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
        about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
        boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
        premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
        I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
        was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
        even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
        to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
        get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
        mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
        and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".

        Anyone want to comment?

        Geoff





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      • pecostx@comcast.net
        John, thanks for writing. I just was reading your post and was looking at Jim s designs on the Duckworks site and couldn t find the Toon19 that you speak of.
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2, 2006
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          John, thanks for writing. I just was reading your post and was looking at Jim's designs on the Duckworks site and couldn't find the Toon19 that you speak of. did you have Jim design it for you or is it listed somewhere else? How do you like it so far? How long have you been sailing it? How was it to build? Where do you sail it?

          I dream of sailing like Gary and Chuck only maybe not under "race conditions" if you know what I mean. I like the idea of the Frolic2's size and capabilities but I also wonder if I may be better off with a smaller design. I guess it doesn't really matter if the amount of usage isn't alot, it will still sit in the driveway the same whether it is 15ft. or 20ft. I think I'd really be upset if it comes to that. Do you know what I mean?

          Geoff

          -------------- Original message --------------
          From: "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...>
          Geoff--funny you should ask...

          I recently built and am sorting out the Toon 19 shown in Jim's page under prototypes, so I speak from some experience.

          Jim defines his boats as "through the water" and "over the water". His through the water boats have a sharp stem and cut through waves. His over the water boats present a flat bottom to the water--sort of like a pram. The over the water boats may be a little faster in sheltered water but pound in waves (or wakes). Fro;oc 2 is a through the water boat; Toon 2 is an over the water boat.

          The three boats which are more or less similiar in size, material requirements and capabilities are AF-3, Frolic 2, and Toon 2. All are moderately capable day sailors which can be handled by a singlehander or accomodate a couple or maybe even a small family. Jim's boats are pretty tolerant of rig and there is enough information to swap a balanced lug for a sprit rigged leg of mutton on Jim's web site. If you buy a set of plans and ask him, he'll probably draw a balanced lug on Toon 2 or AF-3 for a nominal fee.

          You will observe that Toon 19 has a mizzen and a leg of mutton main. The purpose is to minimize weather helm while reefed or with the lee board partially raised. In addition, it is possible to drop the main and hoist a small jib, sailing under mizzen and jib in heavy going. It should work, but I haven't yet encountered weather which justifies the "storm Jib"

          Any of these boats will meet the needs of a single hander or a couple. I'm old and arthritic, so I value the seats/back rest found on Frolic 2 and Toon 2 (as well as Toon 19). I also prefer the shorter mast on the balanced lug sail to the very long mast on the leg of mutton sail, but that is a matter of personal preference.

          For what it is worth, Toon 19 has a motor well and I don't see why Toon 2 couldn't have one as well. Alternatively, a store bought motor mount on the transom should serve. A Honda 2 hp pushes Toon 19 to hull speed at half throttle, and should work on Frolic 2, AF-3, or Toon 2 as well.

          I rate boats by the number of sheets of plywood necessary to plank the side. A PDR is a one sheet boat, limited to 8 ft LOA. The next step up is a 2 sheet boat with 16 ft long panels, producing a 15' to 15 1/2' boat. The bigger boat is much more capable, commodious, and faster than the 8 ' boat. A 2 1/2 sheet boat can be around 19' (i.e. Toon 19), but the thicker, longer(heavier and floppier) plywood takes a 19' boat to the upper limit of a single handers' building capabilities (or at least mine). If I build another boat (Toon 19 is my tenth effort), it will be a 2 sheet boat.

          Have fun and holler if you have any questions.

          John T
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: pecostx51
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:38 PM
          Subject: [Michalak] design comparisons


          I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
          duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
          articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
          the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
          similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
          motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
          balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
          sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.

          I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
          pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
          about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
          boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
          premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
          I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
          was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
          even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
          to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
          get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
          mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
          and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".

          Anyone want to comment?

          Geoff





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          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

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        • John Sweeney
          look at the IMB or one of the other birdwatchers its my next project after the robote small enough to launch easily roomy stable John ... From:
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2, 2006
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            look at the IMB or one of the other birdwatchers its my next project after the robote small enough to launch easily roomy stable
            John
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: pecostx@...<mailto:pecostx@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:41 PM
            Subject: Re: [Michalak] design comparisons


            John, thanks for writing. I just was reading your post and was looking at Jim's designs on the Duckworks site and couldn't find the Toon19 that you speak of. did you have Jim design it for you or is it listed somewhere else? How do you like it so far? How long have you been sailing it? How was it to build? Where do you sail it?

            I dream of sailing like Gary and Chuck only maybe not under "race conditions" if you know what I mean. I like the idea of the Frolic2's size and capabilities but I also wonder if I may be better off with a smaller design. I guess it doesn't really matter if the amount of usage isn't alot, it will still sit in the driveway the same whether it is 15ft. or 20ft. I think I'd really be upset if it comes to that. Do you know what I mean?

            Geoff

            -------------- Original message --------------
            From: "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...>
            Geoff--funny you should ask...

            I recently built and am sorting out the Toon 19 shown in Jim's page under prototypes, so I speak from some experience.

            Jim defines his boats as "through the water" and "over the water". His through the water boats have a sharp stem and cut through waves. His over the water boats present a flat bottom to the water--sort of like a pram. The over the water boats may be a little faster in sheltered water but pound in waves (or wakes). Fro;oc 2 is a through the water boat; Toon 2 is an over the water boat.

            The three boats which are more or less similiar in size, material requirements and capabilities are AF-3, Frolic 2, and Toon 2. All are moderately capable day sailors which can be handled by a singlehander or accomodate a couple or maybe even a small family. Jim's boats are pretty tolerant of rig and there is enough information to swap a balanced lug for a sprit rigged leg of mutton on Jim's web site. If you buy a set of plans and ask him, he'll probably draw a balanced lug on Toon 2 or AF-3 for a nominal fee.

            You will observe that Toon 19 has a mizzen and a leg of mutton main. The purpose is to minimize weather helm while reefed or with the lee board partially raised. In addition, it is possible to drop the main and hoist a small jib, sailing under mizzen and jib in heavy going. It should work, but I haven't yet encountered weather which justifies the "storm Jib"

            Any of these boats will meet the needs of a single hander or a couple. I'm old and arthritic, so I value the seats/back rest found on Frolic 2 and Toon 2 (as well as Toon 19). I also prefer the shorter mast on the balanced lug sail to the very long mast on the leg of mutton sail, but that is a matter of personal preference.

            For what it is worth, Toon 19 has a motor well and I don't see why Toon 2 couldn't have one as well. Alternatively, a store bought motor mount on the transom should serve. A Honda 2 hp pushes Toon 19 to hull speed at half throttle, and should work on Frolic 2, AF-3, or Toon 2 as well.

            I rate boats by the number of sheets of plywood necessary to plank the side. A PDR is a one sheet boat, limited to 8 ft LOA. The next step up is a 2 sheet boat with 16 ft long panels, producing a 15' to 15 1/2' boat. The bigger boat is much more capable, commodious, and faster than the 8 ' boat. A 2 1/2 sheet boat can be around 19' (i.e. Toon 19), but the thicker, longer(heavier and floppier) plywood takes a 19' boat to the upper limit of a single handers' building capabilities (or at least mine). If I build another boat (Toon 19 is my tenth effort), it will be a 2 sheet boat.

            Have fun and holler if you have any questions.

            John T
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: pecostx51
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:38 PM
            Subject: [Michalak] design comparisons


            I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
            duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
            articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
            the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
            similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
            motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
            balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
            sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.

            I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
            pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
            about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
            boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
            premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
            I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
            was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
            even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
            to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
            get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
            mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
            and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".

            Anyone want to comment?

            Geoff





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            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 3/31/2006


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          • Chuck Leinweber
            Geoff: I ll take a shot at this. I have built more than a dozen boats and I feel that no single boat will be the best . Even for one person and on one
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 3, 2006
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              Geoff:

              I'll take a shot at this. I have built more than a dozen boats and I feel
              that no single boat will be the "best". Even for one person and on one
              place. Your skills, attitudes and desires change and the ideal boat changes
              too. It is a moving target that you will never hit, so just pick a design
              and build it. There will be times (even before you finish) when you will
              wish you had started the other one and times when you thank your lucky stars
              that you did not.

              Chuck

              > I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
              > duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
              > articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
              > the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
              > similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
              > motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
              > balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
              > sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.
              >
              > I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
              > pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
              > about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
              > boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
              > premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
              > I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
              > was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
              > even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
              > to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
              > get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
              > mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
              > and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".
              >
              > Anyone want to comment?
              >
              > Geoff
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 3/31/2006
              >

              --
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              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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            • John and Kathy Trussell
              Geoff, I ll try to answer your questions, but I ll begin with a caution. I read about other peoples exploits and think, What a great idea. I want to do
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Geoff,

                I'll try to answer your questions, but I'll begin with a caution. I read about other peoples' exploits and think, "What a great idea. I want to do that!"
                There is, however, often a huge gap between the idea/dream and reality. It is easy enough to acquire a racing bike, an expensive camera, or an extremely capable boat. But having the equipment won't make me Lance Armstrong, Ansel Adams, or a participant in the Everglades challenge. I find that I'm much better off with equipment that matches how I will actually use it than equipment which has capabilities (and shortcomings) which I will never use.

                IMHO, the boats which get used the most are the ones which (a) are suitable for the waters you sail in and (b) can be set up and put into use as quickly and easily as possible. Unless you need a cabin big enough to sleep in, any of the boats in Jim's catalogue which are around 15 feet long will meet these requirements.

                I commissioned Jim to design a stretched version of Toon 2. We did a straight lengthwise stretch from 15 1/2' to 19' while keeping the same cross section. This produced a longer boat for an additional 2 sheets of plywood (though the longer boat requires 3/8's " plywood rather than 1/4"). This also produced a cabin long enough for me to lie down in without sticking my head through a hole in the forward bulkhead. At my request, Jim swapped out the leg of mutton rig (with its 20 some odd foot long mast) for a balanced lug rig with a little mizzen. Jim owns the plans and, as far as I know, has not made any decision on adding the design to his catalogue.

                I built Toon 19 because I'm getting old and I need a boat which provides comfort (seating) and security while requiring little physical effort to rig and sail. There are always things that you wish you did differently, but I got what I wanted and I'm pleased.

                I primarily sail on Lake Murray in South Carolina. I occasionally get to other lakes (SC has a lot of them) and I hope to get to some of the group cruises put on by the Shallow Water Sailors and The West Coast Trailer sailing Squadron. I think that Toon 19 is suitable for short, weekend cruises in summer weather and sheltered waters--about on a par with a Dovekie though probably not as capable as a Sea Pearl--I've owned both.

                I've had Toon 19 out a half a dozen times, mostly in light air, though once up to 10mph/occassional whitecaps. The boat moves easily in light air and felt secure in 10mph winds. I'm still sorting things out--longer tiller to allow me to sit farther forward and trim the boat level fore and aft, moving a couple of blocks and cleats, etc. The water has been too cold for capsizing, but I can stand (I weigh 245 lbs) on the seat without concern about dumping the boat.

                I took about a year to build Toon 19. Part of the year was spent recovering from throwing my back out and part recovering from busting my ribs when I tripped over a small saw horse. There is a lot of area to paint and a lot of spars to fabricate and finish. Toon 19 is standard stitch and glue construction with nothing kinky about it. I would caution anyone contemplating a 19 foot plywood boat that long plywood panels are heavy and floppy. A second set of hands is really helpful. 15 ft boats are much easier for a single handed builder.

                As to which boat to build...So many choices! Where will you sail? Are you looking for a day boat or an overnighter ? Will you be sailing single handed, with a small child (which is about the same thing), with a spouse, or with a crowd? Do you want an open boat or do you want a cuddy (or a full blown cabin)? Do you want to sail from inside a Birdwatcher cabin or do you want to be out in the wind and the sun? Look hard at your requirements and pick a design which meets them. Have fun and good luck.

                John T





                ----- Original Message -----
                From: pecostx@...
                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:41 PM
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] design comparisons


                John, thanks for writing. I just was reading your post and was looking at Jim's designs on the Duckworks site and couldn't find the Toon19 that you speak of. did you have Jim design it for you or is it listed somewhere else? How do you like it so far? How long have you been sailing it? How was it to build? Where do you sail it?

                I dream of sailing like Gary and Chuck only maybe not under "race conditions" if you know what I mean. I like the idea of the Frolic2's size and capabilities but I also wonder if I may be better off with a smaller design. I guess it doesn't really matter if the amount of usage isn't alot, it will still sit in the driveway the same whether it is 15ft. or 20ft. I think I'd really be upset if it comes to that. Do you know what I mean?

                Geoff

                -------------- Original message --------------
                From: "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...>
                Geoff--funny you should ask...

                I recently built and am sorting out the Toon 19 shown in Jim's page under prototypes, so I speak from some experience.

                Jim defines his boats as "through the water" and "over the water". His through the water boats have a sharp stem and cut through waves. His over the water boats present a flat bottom to the water--sort of like a pram. The over the water boats may be a little faster in sheltered water but pound in waves (or wakes). Fro;oc 2 is a through the water boat; Toon 2 is an over the water boat.

                The three boats which are more or less similiar in size, material requirements and capabilities are AF-3, Frolic 2, and Toon 2. All are moderately capable day sailors which can be handled by a singlehander or accomodate a couple or maybe even a small family. Jim's boats are pretty tolerant of rig and there is enough information to swap a balanced lug for a sprit rigged leg of mutton on Jim's web site. If you buy a set of plans and ask him, he'll probably draw a balanced lug on Toon 2 or AF-3 for a nominal fee.

                You will observe that Toon 19 has a mizzen and a leg of mutton main. The purpose is to minimize weather helm while reefed or with the lee board partially raised. In addition, it is possible to drop the main and hoist a small jib, sailing under mizzen and jib in heavy going. It should work, but I haven't yet encountered weather which justifies the "storm Jib"

                Any of these boats will meet the needs of a single hander or a couple. I'm old and arthritic, so I value the seats/back rest found on Frolic 2 and Toon 2 (as well as Toon 19). I also prefer the shorter mast on the balanced lug sail to the very long mast on the leg of mutton sail, but that is a matter of personal preference.

                For what it is worth, Toon 19 has a motor well and I don't see why Toon 2 couldn't have one as well. Alternatively, a store bought motor mount on the transom should serve. A Honda 2 hp pushes Toon 19 to hull speed at half throttle, and should work on Frolic 2, AF-3, or Toon 2 as well.

                I rate boats by the number of sheets of plywood necessary to plank the side. A PDR is a one sheet boat, limited to 8 ft LOA. The next step up is a 2 sheet boat with 16 ft long panels, producing a 15' to 15 1/2' boat. The bigger boat is much more capable, commodious, and faster than the 8 ' boat. A 2 1/2 sheet boat can be around 19' (i.e. Toon 19), but the thicker, longer(heavier and floppier) plywood takes a 19' boat to the upper limit of a single handers' building capabilities (or at least mine). If I build another boat (Toon 19 is my tenth effort), it will be a 2 sheet boat.

                Have fun and holler if you have any questions.

                John T
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: pecostx51
                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:38 PM
                Subject: [Michalak] design comparisons


                I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
                duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
                articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
                the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
                similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
                motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
                balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
                sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.

                I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
                pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
                about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
                boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
                premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
                I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
                was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
                even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
                to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
                get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
                mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
                and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".

                Anyone want to comment?

                Geoff





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              • Rick Bedard
                Very well stated John. This should be posted on Jim s site, and on Duckworks! Rick Bedard John and Kathy Trussell wrote: Geoff, I ll try
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Very well stated John. This should be posted on Jim's site, and on Duckworks!

                  Rick Bedard


                  John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                  Geoff,

                  I'll try to answer your questions, but I'll begin with a caution. I read about other peoples' exploits and think, "What a great idea. I want to do that!"
                  There is, however, often a huge gap between the idea/dream and reality. It is easy enough to acquire a racing bike, an expensive camera, or an extremely capable boat. But having the equipment won't make me Lance Armstrong, Ansel Adams, or a participant in the Everglades challenge. I find that I'm much better off with equipment that matches how I will actually use it than equipment which has capabilities (and shortcomings) which I will never use.

                  IMHO, the boats which get used the most are the ones which (a) are suitable for the waters you sail in and (b) can be set up and put into use as quickly and easily as possible.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Rick Bedard
                  Ain t that the truth.... Rick Chuck Leinweber wrote: There will be times (even before you finish) when you will wish you
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ain't that the truth....
                    Rick

                    Chuck Leinweber <chuck@...> wrote:

                    <snip> There will be times (even before you finish) when you will
                    wish you had started the other one and times when you thank your lucky stars
                    that you did not.

                    Chuck
                    <snip>


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • pecostx@comcast.net
                    Thanks Chuck, I do believe you ve hit the target bullseye this time. I haven t built many boats but I feel like I ve been there done that in my mind so many
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 4, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Chuck, I do believe you've hit the target bullseye this time. I haven't built many boats but I feel like I've been there done that in my mind so many times. I guess the one to pick is the one that "excites my soul" so to speak. But they sort of all do, yaknow? I'll probably just do a few laps with the pdracer while I "feel" the others out some more.

                      Thanks again.

                      Geoff

                      -------------- Original message --------------
                      From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@...>

                      >
                      > Geoff:
                      >
                      > I'll take a shot at this. I have built more than a dozen boats and I feel
                      > that no single boat will be the "best". Even for one person and on one
                      > place. Your skills, attitudes and desires change and the ideal boat changes
                      > too. It is a moving target that you will never hit, so just pick a design
                      > and build it. There will be times (even before you finish) when you will
                      > wish you had started the other one and times when you thank your lucky stars
                      > that you did not.
                      >
                      > Chuck
                      >
                      > > I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
                      > > duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
                      > > articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
                      > > the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
                      > > similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
                      > > motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
                      > > balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
                      > > sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.
                      > >
                      > > I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
                      > > pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
                      > > about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
                      > > boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
                      > > premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
                      > > I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
                      > > was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
                      > > even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
                      > > to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
                      > > get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
                      > > mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
                      > > and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".
                      > >
                      > > Anyone want to comment?
                      > >
                      > > Geoff
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 3/31/2006
                      > >
                      >
                      > --
                      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/300 - Release Date: 4/3/2006
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • pecostx@comcast.net
                      Thanks John, it s good to hear from real experience (multiple boats over multiple years). Both you and chuck have hit the mark for me. Good advise, it will be
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 4, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks John, it's good to hear from real experience (multiple boats over multiple years). Both you and chuck have hit the mark for me. Good advise, it will be well taken. It's very cool to hear from people who do know how you feel because they feel that way too.

                        Thanks

                        Geoff

                        -------------- Original message --------------
                        From: "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...>
                        Geoff,

                        I'll try to answer your questions, but I'll begin with a caution. I read about other peoples' exploits and think, "What a great idea. I want to do that!"
                        There is, however, often a huge gap between the idea/dream and reality. It is easy enough to acquire a racing bike, an expensive camera, or an extremely capable boat. But having the equipment won't make me Lance Armstrong, Ansel Adams, or a participant in the Everglades challenge. I find that I'm much better off with equipment that matches how I will actually use it than equipment which has capabilities (and shortcomings) which I will never use.

                        IMHO, the boats which get used the most are the ones which (a) are suitable for the waters you sail in and (b) can be set up and put into use as quickly and easily as possible. Unless you need a cabin big enough to sleep in, any of the boats in Jim's catalogue which are around 15 feet long will meet these requirements.

                        I commissioned Jim to design a stretched version of Toon 2. We did a straight lengthwise stretch from 15 1/2' to 19' while keeping the same cross section. This produced a longer boat for an additional 2 sheets of plywood (though the longer boat requires 3/8's " plywood rather than 1/4"). This also produced a cabin long enough for me to lie down in without sticking my head through a hole in the forward bulkhead. At my request, Jim swapped out the leg of mutton rig (with its 20 some odd foot long mast) for a balanced lug rig with a little mizzen. Jim owns the plans and, as far as I know, has not made any decision on adding the design to his catalogue.

                        I built Toon 19 because I'm getting old and I need a boat which provides comfort (seating) and security while requiring little physical effort to rig and sail. There are always things that you wish you did differently, but I got what I wanted and I'm pleased.

                        I primarily sail on Lake Murray in South Carolina. I occasionally get to other lakes (SC has a lot of them) and I hope to get to some of the group cruises put on by the Shallow Water Sailors and The West Coast Trailer sailing Squadron. I think that Toon 19 is suitable for short, weekend cruises in summer weather and sheltered waters--about on a par with a Dovekie though probably not as capable as a Sea Pearl--I've owned both.

                        I've had Toon 19 out a half a dozen times, mostly in light air, though once up to 10mph/occassional whitecaps. The boat moves easily in light air and felt secure in 10mph winds. I'm still sorting things out--longer tiller to allow me to sit farther forward and trim the boat level fore and aft, moving a couple of blocks and cleats, etc. The water has been too cold for capsizing, but I can stand (I weigh 245 lbs) on the seat without concern about dumping the boat.

                        I took about a year to build Toon 19. Part of the year was spent recovering from throwing my back out and part recovering from busting my ribs when I tripped over a small saw horse. There is a lot of area to paint and a lot of spars to fabricate and finish. Toon 19 is standard stitch and glue construction with nothing kinky about it. I would caution anyone contemplating a 19 foot plywood boat that long plywood panels are heavy and floppy. A second set of hands is really helpful. 15 ft boats are much easier for a single handed builder.

                        As to which boat to build...So many choices! Where will you sail? Are you looking for a day boat or an overnighter ? Will you be sailing single handed, with a small child (which is about the same thing), with a spouse, or with a crowd? Do you want an open boat or do you want a cuddy (or a full blown cabin)? Do you want to sail from inside a Birdwatcher cabin or do you want to be out in the wind and the sun? Look hard at your requirements and pick a design which meets them. Have fun and good luck.

                        John T





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: pecostx@...
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:41 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Michalak] design comparisons


                        John, thanks for writing. I just was reading your post and was looking at Jim's designs on the Duckworks site and couldn't find the Toon19 that you speak of. did you have Jim design it for you or is it listed somewhere else? How do you like it so far? How long have you been sailing it? How was it to build? Where do you sail it?

                        I dream of sailing like Gary and Chuck only maybe not under "race conditions" if you know what I mean. I like the idea of the Frolic2's size and capabilities but I also wonder if I may be better off with a smaller design. I guess it doesn't really matter if the amount of usage isn't alot, it will still sit in the driveway the same whether it is 15ft. or 20ft. I think I'd really be upset if it comes to that. Do you know what I mean?

                        Geoff

                        -------------- Original message --------------
                        From: "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...>
                        Geoff--funny you should ask...

                        I recently built and am sorting out the Toon 19 shown in Jim's page under prototypes, so I speak from some experience.

                        Jim defines his boats as "through the water" and "over the water". His through the water boats have a sharp stem and cut through waves. His over the water boats present a flat bottom to the water--sort of like a pram. The over the water boats may be a little faster in sheltered water but pound in waves (or wakes). Fro;oc 2 is a through the water boat; Toon 2 is an over the water boat.

                        The three boats which are more or less similiar in size, material requirements and capabilities are AF-3, Frolic 2, and Toon 2. All are moderately capable day sailors which can be handled by a singlehander or accomodate a couple or maybe even a small family. Jim's boats are pretty tolerant of rig and there is enough information to swap a balanced lug for a sprit rigged leg of mutton on Jim's web site. If you buy a set of plans and ask him, he'll probably draw a balanced lug on Toon 2 or AF-3 for a nominal fee.

                        You will observe that Toon 19 has a mizzen and a leg of mutton main. The purpose is to minimize weather helm while reefed or with the lee board partially raised. In addition, it is possible to drop the main and hoist a small jib, sailing under mizzen and jib in heavy going. It should work, but I haven't yet encountered weather which justifies the "storm Jib"

                        Any of these boats will meet the needs of a single hander or a couple. I'm old and arthritic, so I value the seats/back rest found on Frolic 2 and Toon 2 (as well as Toon 19). I also prefer the shorter mast on the balanced lug sail to the very long mast on the leg of mutton sail, but that is a matter of personal preference.

                        For what it is worth, Toon 19 has a motor well and I don't see why Toon 2 couldn't have one as well. Alternatively, a store bought motor mount on the transom should serve. A Honda 2 hp pushes Toon 19 to hull speed at half throttle, and should work on Frolic 2, AF-3, or Toon 2 as well.

                        I rate boats by the number of sheets of plywood necessary to plank the side. A PDR is a one sheet boat, limited to 8 ft LOA. The next step up is a 2 sheet boat with 16 ft long panels, producing a 15' to 15 1/2' boat. The bigger boat is much more capable, commodious, and faster than the 8 ' boat. A 2 1/2 sheet boat can be around 19' (i.e. Toon 19), but the thicker, longer(heavier and floppier) plywood takes a 19' boat to the upper limit of a single handers' building capabilities (or at least mine). If I build another boat (Toon 19 is my tenth effort), it will be a 2 sheet boat.

                        Have fun and holler if you have any questions.

                        John T
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: pecostx51
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:38 PM
                        Subject: [Michalak] design comparisons


                        I was just reading both Jim Michalak's site and the article on
                        duckworks about the Everglades Challenge. Both are very good
                        articles! I like taht type of stuff. Anyway I was just wondering if
                        the Frolic2 seems like just a larger Toon2. I mean they are very
                        similar in design with the main difference being the length and the
                        motor well which Toon2 doesn't have. If Toon2 were built with a
                        balanced lug rig instead of the sharpie sprit rig would it in fact
                        sail and handle in like manner to the Frolic2.

                        I'm thinking of building another boat that would be larger than the
                        pdracer now almost finished. I like the Frolic2 but I'm curious
                        about handling it by myself. Like Jim says in his book "build the
                        boat for yourself". I'm afraid, not of sailing but like in a
                        premonition that my wife won't want to sail as much as I will, that
                        I'll be doing alot of solo sailing. I'm not the young buck I once
                        was and look forward to some leisurly sailing and sightseeing maybe
                        even some boat/beach camping. I don't know, I think I'm just trying
                        to talk myself into one design over the other but afraid it won't
                        get the use it deserves or that I desire. Does anyone know what I
                        mean? I guess the pdracer was just a tune up of my building skills
                        and now I'm chomping at the bit to build "the real boat".

                        Anyone want to comment?

                        Geoff





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