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Re: AF4 Grande Rough water

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  • joeval131
    Thanks for the input guys, I kind of figured being a boater who is normally runing 35 mph to 50 mph on a so called deep vee, getting banged around is par. At
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 7, 2005
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      Thanks for the input guys, I kind of figured being a boater who is
      normally runing 35 mph to 50 mph on a so called deep vee, getting
      banged around is par. At that speed I am running on a flat bottom
      anyway. should be the same as af4 grande at say ten mph. Anyway,
      what about Pacific Dory's ??, don't they have a flat bottom. The
      problem with dorado is space, to equal Af4 grande, I would need a
      much bigger boat. So probably, if I over build bottom, say 3/4 inch
      or inch, and have enough balast ( fat friends ), and learn a slower
      is better way of boating, I might like it..
      Thanks Joe V

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Like Max, I always have an opinion. From having built a Bolger
      Tennessee
      > and a dozen or so other boats, here is my take on flat-bottomed
      power boats:
      > they are super simple to build and will plane with less power. The
      > drawbacks are that they tend to pound if you go too fast in rough
      water and
      > they tend to bob. The way around the pouning is to simply slow
      down. The
      > cure for bobbing is to load the boat with a bunch of your
      friends. I like
      > 'em.
      >
      > Chuck
      >
      >
      > > Joe
      > >
      > > I built the AF4G that is on the DW plans page.
      > >
      > > I have only used in on the Mohawk river between Lock 8
      > > and Lock 9.
      > >
      > > My boating experince is pretty much limited to the
      > > seven time I have been out in my Grande....
      > >
      > > As a larger flat bottom boat the tendencey is to ride
      > > up over the waves instead of cutting them.
      > >
      > > My only experience with large wave was with a couple
      > > of 1.5' to 2' wakes from a couple of idiot 40' yachts
      > > that were speeding down the Mohawk river last October.
      > > I dodged the orginal wakes by cutting behind an island
      > > but I was caught off guard by a second wake that must
      > > have bounced of the opposite bank of the river. I
      > > would not have wanted to be in a canoe...
      > >
      > > The boat handled the wakes ok but we were tossed a
      > > bit... I would think that after a few minutes of
      > > riding up and down wakes you
      > > would be a bit tired of the sleigh ride....
      > >
      > > If you have built boats before then I would concur a
      > > pile of wood can turn into a AF4G pretty quick...
      > >
      > > The final stuff took me a while.
      > >
      > > I only glassed the bottom and chines and the inside
      > > joints..
      > >
      > > You may want to consider the Dorado....
      > >
      > > eric s
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -- joeval131 <joeval131@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > HI, I have built a few boats some glen-l stuff.
      > > > Mostly twisted
      > > > plywood deep vee. I have always read Bolger books,
      > > > and always tought
      > > > that one day I would build a practical boat. I am
      > > > difenetly a power
      > > > guy, not sail. However, now at 42 years old and gas
      > > > the way it is I
      > > > am ready for longer slower curusies. I live off City
      > > > Island in New
      > > > York City. I want to use the boat in the hudson
      > > > River. But, I must
      > > > first get there. It's not crazy big water, but it
      > > > there is alot of
      > > > boat traffic and it gets nasty. I have purchased the
      > > > plans and can
      > > > start building at end of winter ( late feb. ). I
      > > > build fast, I know
      > > > pepole that took years to build boats that I build
      > > > in months. I
      > > > already build I nice scale model of AF4 Grande. So I
      > > > have it all laid
      > > > out in my mind. I should have something that looks
      > > > like a boat in a
      > > > day or two. Should I go for it, will I like it. A
      > > > short run in rough
      > > > stuff for a long ride in the Hudson to Troy New York
      > > > that use to coat
      > > > me hundred dollars and more, for alot a few bucks.
      > > > Thanks Joe Valenti
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________
      > > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
      > > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
      > > dsl.yahoo.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --
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      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/193 - Release Date:
      12/6/2005
      > >
      >
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      >
    • Rob Rohde-Szudy
      I m with Chuck. Flatties do bob annoyingly, but the lower planing power requirements probably make it worth tolerating. With the price of fuel, I wouldn t get
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 7, 2005
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        I'm with Chuck. Flatties do bob annoyingly, but the lower planing power requirements probably make it worth tolerating. With the price of fuel, I wouldn't get far from a flat bottom without deciding to settle for pure displacement speeds.

        If I were building a displacement powerboat for your application, I'd think of Frolic2 with no sail rig. It would handle the chop and wakes with ease. This is based on my experience in the piccup pram, which has a similar section. The trouble is the current. I don't know how fast the current is in the Hudson, but I wouldn't expect to move a sailing hull under power at much more than hull speed. About 5 mph with Frolic2. On the other hand, you can count on a fuel-wise 10 hp getting you there in any conditions. 5 hp would do most of the time.

        If you need planing speed, I'd do the AF4 or AF4G. Atkin's Rescue Minor or the SkiffAmerica20 would ride nicer, but they are more work to build.

        --Rob


        ---------------------------------
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      • Chuck Leinweber
        As I have stated before, when my Caprice was almost finished, Jim Michalak suggested that I might want to consider forgoing the sailing rig altogether and
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 7, 2005
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          As I have stated before, when my Caprice was almost finished, Jim Michalak
          suggested that I might want to consider forgoing the sailing rig altogether
          and using the boat as a displacement power cruiser with rough water
          capability. Indeed, like most cruising sailboats, it has been used thusly
          several times. Still, I like sailing and am even getting a new set of
          tanbark sails made.

          But the design would not be a bad one for a purpose built displacement power
          cruiser. If I were doing it, I would build a short pilot house just aft of
          the galley. Something along the lines of his Jukebox3.

          Chuck


          > I'm with Chuck. Flatties do bob annoyingly, but the lower planing power
          > requirements probably make it worth tolerating. With the price of fuel, I
          wouldn't get
          > far from a flat bottom without deciding to settle for pure displacement
          speeds.
          >
          > If I were building a displacement powerboat for your application, I'd
          think of Frolic2
          > with no sail rig. It would handle the chop and wakes with ease. This is
          based on my
          > experience in the piccup pram, which has a similar section. The trouble is
          the
          > current. I don't know how fast the current is in the Hudson, but I
          wouldn't expect to
          > move a sailing hull under power at much more than hull speed. About 5 mph
          with
          > Frolic2. On the other hand, you can count on a fuel-wise 10 hp getting you
          there in
          > any conditions. 5 hp would do most of the time.
          >
          > If you need planing speed, I'd do the AF4 or AF4G. Atkin's Rescue Minor
          or the
          > SkiffAmerica20 would ride nicer, but they are more work to build.
          >
          > --Rob
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Personals
          > Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/193 - Release Date: 12/6/2005
          >

          --
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          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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        • John Kohnen
          OK, it was Rob who brought up Atkin boats, not me! But given the opening I ll run through it. ;o) The Atkins designed a lot of efficient motorboats, in fact
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 7, 2005
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            OK, it was Rob who brought up Atkin boats, not me! But given the opening
            I'll run through it. ;o) The Atkins designed a lot of efficient
            motorboats, in fact they seemed to hate putting a big engine in a boat. A
            lot of the designs are intended to run above hull speed without much fuss
            (if they made a fuss a small engine wouldn't push them that fast, those
            big wakes we see too often are just a sign of wasted power and fuel!
            <harumph>), on up to moderate planing speeds. While none of the designs
            are "instant" boats, some are plywood planked and few are as difficult to
            build as Rescue Minor. But if shallow draft is important there's something
            very special about Rescue Minor and the other tunnel-stern Sea Bright
            skiff variants:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/RescueMinor.html

            Look at the wakes of these non-yunnel-stern V-bottomed Sea Bright skiffs:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/SergeantFaunce/

            Here are the other Atkin inboard utilities and runabouts:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/

            If you prefer outboard power, Russell R. and Ninigret are a couple of my
            favorites:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/RussellR.html

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/Ninigret.html

            And the other outboards:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/

            With the inevitable rise in the cost of fuel maybe we'll begin to see
            fewer gas-guzzling pigs, with their obnoxious wakes, on the water and more
            efficient and graceful motorboats like so many of the the Atkins' designs.
            <harumph>

            On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:49:36 -0800, Rob Rohde-Szudy wrote:

            > ...
            > If you need planing speed, I'd do the AF4 or AF4G. Atkin's Rescue Minor
            > or the SkiffAmerica20 would ride nicer, but they are more work to build.

            --
            John <jkohnen@...>
            When I think of the number of disagreeable people that I know have gone to
            a better world, I am sure hell won't be so bad at all. <Mark Twain>
          • Don Schultz
            I m not sure Michalak has a boat for you. I gotta think that low hp and heavier seas with the AF-4 s windage and corkyness adds up to a very difficult day on
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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              I'm not sure Michalak has a boat for you.

              I gotta think that low hp and heavier seas with the AF-4's windage and
              corkyness adds up to a very difficult day on the water, though beefing up
              the scantlings would improve the durability.

              I agree that Dorado would need to be bigger, even the size of Caprice to
              match the AF4 or AF4G. But I suspect a power boat version of Caprice would
              be a very nice boat for a wider range of conditions with moderate power.

              You might consider Bateau's Panga series, adding an AF4 slot top cuddy.
              They are a v-dory, heavily built and rated to handle some big HP as working
              boats.

              http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=PG20&cat=17

              Another suspect is Skiff America 20, built down a bit in a simpler AF4
              fashion.
              Don Schultz
              "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else." Yogi
              Berra
            • vexatious2001
              ... Something like this may be a bit bigger than you are looking for : http://www.gerrmarine.com/images/boat_images/power/gerr28skiff/gerr28sk iffC.GIF Max
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Don Schultz" <donschultz@i...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm not sure Michalak has a boat for you.
                >
                >


                Something like this may be a bit bigger than
                you are looking for :

                http://www.gerrmarine.com/images/boat_images/power/gerr28skiff/gerr28sk
                iffC.GIF





                Max
              • Joeph Valenti
                Thanks again everyone for the input. I sent excerpts of thoughts here and my own to Jim Michalak who seemed to agree with me. You all have to consider that I
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 8, 2005
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                  Thanks again everyone for the input. I sent excerpts of thoughts here
                  and my own to Jim Michalak who seemed to agree with me. You all have
                  to consider that I have been a power boater my whole life, fast boats
                  40 50+ mph at that speed deep vee ??? what deep vee. I am pounding the
                  last three feet of the stren which is flat. I have come home brused
                  and bloody. I am ready to slow down. I will mostly use in Hudson river
                  anyway. So I am with Chuck on this, who said slow down add balast in
                  the form of friends. I will also over build bottom inch maybe inch and
                  ahalf. It will lower center or gravity and add balast, in case my
                  friends go on a diet. I will start build in late feb early march i
                  will post progress or add to my bands website at www.nomatterwhat.us
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