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Re: Can of worms question....(long)

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  • Pertti Kinnunen
    Hi! A finnish guy Hannu Vartiala has made a small clue test, results on his homepage at http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/glue/glue.htm . (Not all of these glues area
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Hi!

      A finnish guy Hannu Vartiala has made a small clue test, results on
      his homepage at http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/glue/glue.htm . (Not all of
      these glues area available on the international market, but the test
      is easy to repeat in your own kitchen, if you are interested).

      He also has some nice small boat designs on his page, take a look!

      Regards,
      Pertti

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
      >
      > To me, they are two different glues for two different purposes.
      Epoxy is
      > the choice for S&G. I know folks have tried PL and drywall tape, and it
      > might work in some cases, but it is not the same thing.
      >
      > Polyurethanes like PL are probably better for wood to wood joints.
      Take a
      > look at PL Masonry: it is more flexible than regular PL and I think
      of it as
      > an economy version of 3M 5200. it's much cheaper and holds like crazy.
      >
      > Chuck
      >
      > >
      > > Dear Group,
      > > I wanted to ask the groups opinion about PL Premium versus the ever
      > > popular Epoxy. After some research into polyurethane adhesives such as
      > > PL and 3M 5200, i learned something. After looking into the flexural,
      > > adhesion and modular properties of polyurethane, i began to like it a
      > > bit more. It was mentioned to me that using a polyurethane adhesive to
      > > glue butt blocks or structural areas was a bad idea. After looking
      into
      > > the combination of mechanical fasteners used with PL adhesives, i
      don't
      > > worry so much about the joint. PL exhibits a flexural advantage over
      > > Epoxy in that it can absorb blunt flexural impacts and not fracture.
      > > Epoxy on the other hand reaches a point where the resin actually
      > > breaks. I did a few little tests at home this week and came up
      with the
      > > following. After glueing two pieces of 1/2 AC ply together, with no
      > > surface prep, i observed that the PL bond compared to the epoxy bond,
      > > actually held up better in a direct impact. I smashed the joints using
      > > a 200 pound anvil hung from a ceiling hoist in my garage. The
      joint was
      > > impacted from the side at the same height and weight each time. The
      > > epoxy cracked under impact where the PL did not. Surface delamination
      > > of the AC ply glued with PL was about as severe as epoxy. I admit this
      > > is a low tech test with no real data, but i can definately see the
      > > strength associated with Polyurethane adhesives. Food for thought i
      > > suppose.
      > > M Russon
      >
      > --
      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date:
      10/28/2005
      >
    • mrusson
      Pertti, Thanks for the link to that web site. The one problem i have with boiling tests, is that a boat will never see boiling water. A soak test is somewhat
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2005
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        Pertti,
        Thanks for the link to that web site. The one problem i have with
        boiling tests, is that a boat will never see boiling water. A soak test
        is somewhat valid, but even using epoxy, a plywood boat will delaminate
        very easily after long soaking. I would hope that a sandwich core
        plywood boat covered in epoxy and fiberglass would never see that kind
        of soaking problem. If it does, the old rule of thumb comes into play.
        That rule is "from compost it came and to compost it shall return". :o)

        M Russon





        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Pertti Kinnunen"
        <pertti.kinnunen@s...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi!
        >
        > A finnish guy Hannu Vartiala has made a small clue test, results on
        > his homepage at http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/glue/glue.htm . (Not all of
        > these glues area available on the international market, but the test
        > is easy to repeat in your own kitchen, if you are interested).
        >
      • Chris Partridge
        I think the rationale behind a boiling test is that it is accelerated , rather than a reflection of real conditions. I would say that a glue that passes a
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 2005
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          I think the rationale behind a boiling test is that it is 'accelerated',
          rather than a reflection of real conditions.
          I would say that a glue that passes a boil test is more likely to stand up
          to years in damp conditions than one that didn't, but I haven't got the time
          to do a 10 year programme of tests to find out for sure. Any info is better
          than none.
          Chris





          -----Original Message-----
          From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of mrusson
          Sent: 01 November 2005 15:12
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Can of worms question....(long)

          Pertti,
          Thanks for the link to that web site. The one problem i have with
          boiling tests, is that a boat will never see boiling water. A soak test
          is somewhat valid, but even using epoxy, a plywood boat will delaminate
          very easily after long soaking. I would hope that a sandwich core
          plywood boat covered in epoxy and fiberglass would never see that kind
          of soaking problem. If it does, the old rule of thumb comes into play.
          That rule is "from compost it came and to compost it shall return". :o)

          M Russon





          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Pertti Kinnunen"
          <pertti.kinnunen@s...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi!
          >
          > A finnish guy Hannu Vartiala has made a small clue test, results on
          > his homepage at http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/glue/glue.htm . (Not all of
          > these glues area available on the international market, but the test
          > is easy to repeat in your own kitchen, if you are interested).
          >








          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Dick Pilz
          Another rationale behind the boiling water test is for a radiator hose breakage/loss of coolant scenario. Not necessarily something we would see in amounts
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 2005
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            Another rationale behind the boiling water test is for a radiator hose
            breakage/loss of coolant scenario. Not necessarily something we would
            see in amounts large enough to matter, but the spec doesn't care about
            boat size or installed horspower.

            BTW, many epoxies will not pass this test either, so glue AND fasten
            in vulnerable areas.

            Dick

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Partridge"
            <chrispartridge@b...> wrote:
            >
            > I think the rationale behind a boiling test is that it is 'accelerated',
            > rather than a reflection of real conditions.
            > I would say that a glue that passes a boil test is more likely to
            stand up
            > to years in damp conditions than one that didn't, but I haven't got
            the time
            > to do a 10 year programme of tests to find out for sure. Any info is
            better
            > than none.
            > Chris
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf
            > Of mrusson
            > Sent: 01 November 2005 15:12
            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Can of worms question....(long)
            >
            > Pertti,
            > Thanks for the link to that web site. The one problem i have with
            > boiling tests, is that a boat will never see boiling water. A soak test
            > is somewhat valid, but even using epoxy, a plywood boat will delaminate
            > very easily after long soaking. I would hope that a sandwich core
            > plywood boat covered in epoxy and fiberglass would never see that kind
            > of soaking problem. If it does, the old rule of thumb comes into play.
            > That rule is "from compost it came and to compost it shall return". :o)
            >
            > M Russon
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Pertti Kinnunen"
            > <pertti.kinnunen@s...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi!
            > >
            > > A finnish guy Hannu Vartiala has made a small clue test, results on
            > > his homepage at http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/glue/glue.htm . (Not all of
            > > these glues area available on the international market, but the test
            > > is easy to repeat in your own kitchen, if you are interested).
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
          • robrohdeszudy
            Hey, I m with Chuck. I think you re comparing apples and oranges. I used lots of PL on the light schooner, but that is with ring nails. The two help reinforce
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 1, 2005
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              Hey,

              I'm with Chuck. I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

              I used lots of PL on the light schooner, but that is with ring nails.
              The two help reinforce each other, but the PL isn't much good without
              the nails. It's TOO flexible.

              Epoxy, however, is a rigid plastic. And it's generally used with glass
              fabric to vastly increase gluing area.

              So, apples and oranges. PL is great for nail & glue, but not all hull
              forms are easily realized with this method.

              But I think the MAIN thing is that you can't compare nail/glue joints
              with glue only joints. Glue only grabs the glued SURFACE, so the piece
              itself can more easily rupture. A mechanically fastened joint reaches
              all the way through at least one of the parts, the fasteners adding
              their strength to that of the part.

              --Rob


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "mrusson" <mrusson@g...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Group,
              > I wanted to ask the groups opinion about PL Premium versus the ever
              > popular Epoxy. After some research into polyurethane adhesives such as
              > PL and 3M 5200, i learned something. After looking into the flexural,
              > adhesion and modular properties of polyurethane, i began to like it a
              > bit more. It was mentioned to me that using a polyurethane adhesive to
              > glue butt blocks or structural areas was a bad idea. After looking into
              > the combination of mechanical fasteners used with PL adhesives, i don't
              > worry so much about the joint. PL exhibits a flexural advantage over
              > Epoxy in that it can absorb blunt flexural impacts and not fracture.
              > Epoxy on the other hand reaches a point where the resin actually
              > breaks. I did a few little tests at home this week and came up with the
              > following. After glueing two pieces of 1/2 AC ply together, with no
              > surface prep, i observed that the PL bond compared to the epoxy bond,
              > actually held up better in a direct impact. I smashed the joints using
              > a 200 pound anvil hung from a ceiling hoist in my garage. The joint was
              > impacted from the side at the same height and weight each time. The
              > epoxy cracked under impact where the PL did not. Surface delamination
              > of the AC ply glued with PL was about as severe as epoxy. I admit this
              > is a low tech test with no real data, but i can definately see the
              > strength associated with Polyurethane adhesives. Food for thought i
              > suppose.
              > M Russon
              >
            • Chuck Leinweber
              ... Correct, Rob. And the beauty of a stitched and taped joint is huge strength without fasteners going all the way through the wood. It depends on the glass
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2005
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                > Glue only grabs the glued SURFACE, so the piece
                > itself can more easily rupture. A mechanically fastened joint reaches
                > all the way through at least one of the parts, the fasteners adding
                > their strength to that of the part.
                >
                > --Rob

                Correct, Rob. And the beauty of a stitched and taped joint is huge strength
                without fasteners going all the way through the wood. It depends on the
                glass tape, though. You might call the glass a "Fastener" in this case.

                Chuck

                --
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                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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              • Stefan Probst
                ... I guess it is a matter of how the load vector is in relation to the wood surface. with a glued joint, if you pull straight away from the surface, then you
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 3, 2005
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                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Glue only grabs the glued SURFACE, so the piece
                  > > itself can more easily rupture.
                  > > A mechanically fastened joint reaches all the way
                  > > through at least one of the parts, the fasteners adding
                  > > their strength to that of the part.

                  I guess it is a matter of how the load vector is in relation to the
                  wood surface.

                  with a glued joint, if you pull straight away from the surface, then
                  you probably risk pulling some fibres from the surface (or the whole
                  outer layer of the ply). If the force is more parallel to the surface,
                  then there is probably less risk.

                  Fasteners for load vertical to the surface don't help much: the head
                  of the nail or the screw would simply be pulled through the wood
                  (unless it is enlarged by a washer). Loads parallel to the surface are
                  held very well by a fastener, though.

                  Stefan
                • Ed
                  mrusson, I m shocked. All those kids and you waste a perfectly good anvil...perhaps this calls for a contest of sorts...ciao,Ed
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 7, 2005
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                    mrusson, I'm shocked. All those kids and you waste a perfectly good anvil...perhaps this
                    calls for a contest of sorts...ciao,Ed




                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "mrusson" <mrusson@g...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Group,
                    > I wanted to ask the groups opinion about PL Premium versus the ever
                    > popular Epoxy. After some research into polyurethane adhesives such as
                    > PL and 3M 5200, i learned something. After looking into the flexural,
                    > adhesion and modular properties of polyurethane, i began to like it a
                    > bit more. It was mentioned to me that using a polyurethane adhesive to
                    > glue butt blocks or structural areas was a bad idea. After looking into
                    > the combination of mechanical fasteners used with PL adhesives, i don't
                    > worry so much about the joint. PL exhibits a flexural advantage over
                    > Epoxy in that it can absorb blunt flexural impacts and not fracture.
                    > Epoxy on the other hand reaches a point where the resin actually
                    > breaks. I did a few little tests at home this week and came up with the
                    > following. After glueing two pieces of 1/2 AC ply together, with no
                    > surface prep, i observed that the PL bond compared to the epoxy bond,
                    > actually held up better in a direct impact. I smashed the joints using
                    > a 200 pound anvil hung from a ceiling hoist in my garage. The joint was
                    > impacted from the side at the same height and weight each time. The
                    > epoxy cracked under impact where the PL did not. Surface delamination
                    > of the AC ply glued with PL was about as severe as epoxy. I admit this
                    > is a low tech test with no real data, but i can definately see the
                    > strength associated with Polyurethane adhesives. Food for thought i
                    > suppose.
                    > M Russon
                    >
                  • mrusson
                    Ed, You are SO right....i should have bottled all that energy my kids have, and told them to smash the crap outta that playwood. :o) M Russon ...
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 7, 2005
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                      Ed,
                      You are SO right....i should have bottled all that energy my kids
                      have, and told them to smash the crap outta that playwood. :o)
                      M Russon





                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Ed" <edeinhorn@h...> wrote:
                      >
                      > mrusson, I'm shocked. All those kids and you waste a perfectly good
                      anvil...perhaps this
                      > calls for a contest of sorts...ciao,Ed
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "mrusson" <mrusson@g...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Group,
                      > > I wanted to ask the groups opinion about PL Premium versus the
                      ever
                      > > popular Epoxy. After some research into polyurethane adhesives
                      such as
                      > > PL and 3M 5200, i learned something. After looking into the
                      flexural,
                      > > adhesion and modular properties of polyurethane, i began to like
                      it a
                      > > bit more. It was mentioned to me that using a polyurethane
                      adhesive to
                      > > glue butt blocks or structural areas was a bad idea. After
                      looking into
                      > > the combination of mechanical fasteners used with PL adhesives, i
                      don't
                      > > worry so much about the joint. PL exhibits a flexural advantage
                      over
                      > > Epoxy in that it can absorb blunt flexural impacts and not
                      fracture.
                      > > Epoxy on the other hand reaches a point where the resin actually
                      > > breaks. I did a few little tests at home this week and came up
                      with the
                      > > following. After glueing two pieces of 1/2 AC ply together, with
                      no
                      > > surface prep, i observed that the PL bond compared to the epoxy
                      bond,
                      > > actually held up better in a direct impact. I smashed the joints
                      using
                      > > a 200 pound anvil hung from a ceiling hoist in my garage. The
                      joint was
                      > > impacted from the side at the same height and weight each time.
                      The
                      > > epoxy cracked under impact where the PL did not. Surface
                      delamination
                      > > of the AC ply glued with PL was about as severe as epoxy. I admit
                      this
                      > > is a low tech test with no real data, but i can definately see
                      the
                      > > strength associated with Polyurethane adhesives. Food for thought
                      i
                      > > suppose.
                      > > M Russon
                      > >
                      >
                    • Chuck Leinweber
                      I don t think you would have to tell them anything, just leave them within reach (grin). Chuck ... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 7, 2005
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                        I don't think you would have to tell them anything, just leave them within
                        reach (grin).

                        Chuck

                        > Ed,
                        > You are SO right....i should have bottled all that energy my kids
                        > have, and told them to smash the crap outta that playwood. :o)
                        > M Russon
                        >
                        >

                        --
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                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date: 11/5/2005
                      • nick greenaway
                        maybe tell them not to touch cuz its delicate...and expensive :) nick ... __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors Choice 2005
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 7, 2005
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                          maybe tell them not to touch cuz its delicate...and expensive :)

                          nick

                          --- Chuck Leinweber <chuck@...> wrote:

                          > I don't think you would have to tell them anything, just leave them
                          > within
                          > reach (grin).
                          >
                          > Chuck
                          >
                          > > Ed,
                          > > You are SO right....i should have bottled all that energy my
                          > kids
                          > > have, and told them to smash the crap outta that playwood. :o)
                          > > M Russon
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date:
                          > 11/5/2005
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Steven Lewis
                          That might be a bit much...you probably would only have splinters left, judging by my 4. Steve ... them ... ~-
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 8, 2005
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                            That might be a bit much...you probably would only have splinters
                            left, judging by my 4.

                            Steve

                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, nick greenaway <ngreenaway@y...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > maybe tell them not to touch cuz its delicate...and expensive :)
                            >
                            > nick
                            >
                            > --- Chuck Leinweber <chuck@d...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I don't think you would have to tell them anything, just leave
                            them
                            > > within
                            > > reach (grin).
                            > >
                            > > Chuck
                            > >
                            > > > Ed,
                            > > > You are SO right....i should have bottled all that energy my
                            > > kids
                            > > > have, and told them to smash the crap outta that playwood. :o)
                            > > > M Russon
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date:
                            > > 11/5/2005
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                            > > --------------------~-->
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                            > > home page
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                            > >
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                          • Ed
                            ... Nick, Outstanding observation...suggestion, add dad s special stuff . Gaurenteed destruction. Ed
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 8, 2005
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                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, nick greenaway <ngreenaway@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > maybe tell them not to touch cuz its delicate...and expensive :)
                              >
                              > nick
                              >
                              > --- Chuck Leinweber <chuck@d...> wrote:
                              >
                              Nick, Outstanding observation...suggestion, add "dad's special stuff". Gaurenteed
                              destruction. Ed



                              > > I don't think you would have to tell them anything, just leave them
                              > > within
                              > > reach (grin).
                              > >
                              > > Chuck
                              > >
                              > > > Ed,
                              > > > You are SO right....i should have bottled all that energy my
                              > > kids
                              > > > have, and told them to smash the crap outta that playwood. :o)
                              > > > M Russon
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date:
                              > > 11/5/2005
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > > --------------------~-->
                              > > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
                              > > home page
                              > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/6mbrlB/TM
                              > >
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                              > >
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