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Re: [Michalak] Drainplug Details (Was: Does anyone use a drain plug?)

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  • john h wright
    FYI. I noticed that Duckworks has 5 types of drain plugs to look at under Hardware then under Fluid Management of all places. Nylon Fairleads are under
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
      FYI. I noticed that Duckworks has "5 types" of drain plugs to look at
      under "Hardware" then under "Fluid Management" of all places. Nylon
      Fairleads are under "Shackles and Eyes". Chuck,,,, these locations may
      have a logic but are not user friendly! Even when I know that you have
      them they are HARD to find!

      On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 12:18:39 -0000 "awellbalancedgun"
      <awellbalancedgun@...> writes:
      I did not install a drain plug in my Mixer, but the arguments have
      convinced me that I should consider doing so. What size/type of
      plug are you guys using? Are you keeping the outside of the plug
      flush with the bottom of the boat, or not caring about a bit of
      drag? Any difference in detailing required for sailboats versus
      power boats like your AF4s?

      Tom Hamernik


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@g...> wrote:
      > Here here. I second what Max says about your boat never being
      level.
      >
      > I put one drain on the port side of my transom, and I located
      another
      > just forward of the bulkhead in the cabin - in the center.
      >
      > So naturally my boat always leans to the right and I have to chock
      up
      > my right tire to get my boat to drain. If I had it to do over
      again I
      > would put one on each side of the transom. I put the one in the
      cabin
      > on the center so it could pass through the center skid and have the
      > advantage of that thickness for a better fitting plug. It has not
      > been a real problem, 1 because I keep the cabin covered in the
      rain,
      > so I am only draining that area during a hoseout, 2. It's no big
      deal
      > to bail and sponge out the little bit of water that goes to
      whichever
      > side is lower.
      >
      > So that's my recommendation, one as far to each side of the transom
      > and one on the center skid just forward of the middle bulkhead.
      >
      > Don't forget to smooth your holes out nice with a bit of sandpaper
      on
      > a dowell, and warm them up real good with a heat gun or hair dryer,
      > then apply warm unthickened epoxy as it cools so it soaks in good.
      You
      > might want to add several applications if you can without getting
      the
      > inside surface messy. They can be a point for water and rot to
      get in
      > the ply, but I did mine as stated, and have no sign of problems
      after
      > a few years of hard usage. I've had to replace all the plugs.
      >
      > Don't be afraid to drill holes in the bottom of your boat. You can
      > always fill them with epoxy past later if you don't like where they
      > are- and drill more. So why haven't I drilled another one on the
      > right side of my transom . . .? Inertia I guess.
      > Rhett Davis
      > Happy AF4 Builder/Owner





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    • Chuck Leinweber
      I don t have a drain in my Ladybug and frankly don t want one. I have put them in any and all boats that are not easy to turn over. As has been mentioned
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
        I don't have a drain in my Ladybug and frankly don't want one. I have put
        them in any and all boats that are not easy to turn over. As has been
        mentioned before these things can be forgotten or lost so why use them if
        you don't really need them?

        Chuck

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of awellbalancedgun
        > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 7:19 AM
        > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Michalak] Drainplug Details (Was: Does anyone use a drain plug?)
        >
        > I did not install a drain plug in my Mixer, but the arguments have
        > convinced me that I should consider doing so. What size/type of
        > plug are you guys using? Are you keeping the outside of the plug
        > flush with the bottom of the boat, or not caring about a bit of
        > drag? Any difference in detailing required for sailboats versus
        > power boats like your AF4s?
        >
        > Tom Hamernik
        >
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@g...> wrote:
        > > Here here. I second what Max says about your boat never being
        > level.
        > >
        > > I put one drain on the port side of my transom, and I located
        > another
        > > just forward of the bulkhead in the cabin - in the center.
        > >
        > > So naturally my boat always leans to the right and I have to chock
        > up
        > > my right tire to get my boat to drain. If I had it to do over
        > again I
        > > would put one on each side of the transom. I put the one in the
        > cabin
        > > on the center so it could pass through the center skid and have the
        > > advantage of that thickness for a better fitting plug. It has not
        > > been a real problem, 1 because I keep the cabin covered in the
        > rain,
        > > so I am only draining that area during a hoseout, 2. It's no big
        > deal
        > > to bail and sponge out the little bit of water that goes to
        > whichever
        > > side is lower.
        > >
        > > So that's my recommendation, one as far to each side of the transom
        > > and one on the center skid just forward of the middle bulkhead.
        > >
        > > Don't forget to smooth your holes out nice with a bit of sandpaper
        > on
        > > a dowell, and warm them up real good with a heat gun or hair dryer,
        > > then apply warm unthickened epoxy as it cools so it soaks in good.
        > You
        > > might want to add several applications if you can without getting
        > the
        > > inside surface messy. They can be a point for water and rot to
        > get in
        > > the ply, but I did mine as stated, and have no sign of problems
        > after
        > > a few years of hard usage. I've had to replace all the plugs.
        > >
        > > Don't be afraid to drill holes in the bottom of your boat. You can
        > > always fill them with epoxy past later if you don't like where they
        > > are- and drill more. So why haven't I drilled another one on the
        > > right side of my transom . . .? Inertia I guess.
        > > Rhett Davis
        > > Happy AF4 Builder/Owner
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
        > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.10/119 - Release Date: 10/4/2005
        >

        --
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      • Chuck Leinweber
        ... John or anyone else: HELP! All suggestions welcome. I would love to make Duckworks more user friendly, but like a baby it didn t come with an
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
          >Chuck,,,, these locations may
          > have a logic but are not user friendly! Even when I know that you have
          > them they are HARD to find!

          John or anyone else: HELP! All suggestions welcome. I would love to make
          Duckworks more user friendly, but like a baby it didn't come with an
          instruction manual

          Chuck

          --
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          Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Other people believe that the safe side is *not* to put one in. I am presently building a open cockpit cruiser designed by Phil Bolger, and his view of
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
            > Err on the safe side, put one in. You won't be sorry.
            > Ken Abrahams

            Other people believe that the safe side is *not* to put one in.

            I am presently building a open cockpit cruiser designed by
            Phil Bolger, and his view of 'safe' is to put in a good 12V bilge
            pump with a powerful battery bank. [and have no below waterline
            hull openings at all].

            The Bolger design has redundancy too, where it also has
            net positive buoyancy through built-in foam, in the event
            that the batteries/pump might fail.

            [A side benefit of 200lbs of batteries fastened tight down low
            in an AF4 would be an improvement of the stability curve/
            righting moment for that hull.]
          • John Bell
            ... From: Bruce Hallman ... Only under certain loading conditions. Overloading a fairly straight sided flattie reduces final stability in
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>

              > [A side benefit of 200lbs of batteries fastened tight down low
              > in an AF4 would be an improvement of the stability curve/
              > righting moment for that hull.]

              Only under certain loading conditions. Overloading a fairly straight sided
              flattie reduces final stability in a big hurry. The boat is most stable when
              lightly loaded.

              With an AF4, the thing to do is put your battery up against the foremost
              bulkhead. Only until you get going above 18 mph, it really doesn't like
              having any extra weight aft. Once you get her going fast, moving weight aft
              made her go even faster.
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... 200 lbs of batteries is *far* from overloaded for an AF4. 200 lbs of batteries would sink the AF4 only about 1/2 . The AF4 obviously has a lot of intial
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                > Only under certain loading conditions. Overloading a fairly straight sided
                > flattie reduces final stability in a big hurry. The boat is most stable when
                > lightly loaded.

                200 lbs of batteries is *far* from overloaded for an AF4.
                200 lbs of batteries would sink the AF4 only about 1/2".
                The AF4 obviously has a lot of intial stability, but with a hull
                weight of 350 pounds, a shifting of the 'live load', [that is people
                and gear], would dominate the 'righting moment' effect on
                the stability curve.

                Visualize this: A bare AF4 lying on its side, with ??? lbs of gear
                and people on the downward side of the boat. Such would be
                stable in the 'on its side' position, with essentially no positive
                righting moment.

                Add, 200 pounds of fixed ballast fastened to the 'bottom' giving
                roughly 400 foot-pounds of positive righting moment, and a
                fighting chance to flip the boat back upright.

                If nothing else, it would be prudent to provide tiedowns in
                an AF4 for gear, [especially for your water jugs], so that if
                knocked over, the weight would not shift to the downward
                side.
              • John Bell
                If your motorboat is on its side, something is BAD wrong. All I m saying is that 200 pounds of batteries means 200 pounds less gear/people. The boat performed
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                  If your motorboat is on its side, something is BAD wrong.

                  All I'm saying is that 200 pounds of batteries means 200 pounds less
                  gear/people. The boat performed best and felt safest with a light load
                  rather than a heavy one. Heavily loaded, it rolled deeper and came up slower
                  than I was comfortable with.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
                  To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:49 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] Does anyone use a drain plug?


                  > > Only under certain loading conditions. Overloading a fairly straight
                  sided
                  > > flattie reduces final stability in a big hurry. The boat is most stable
                  when
                  > > lightly loaded.
                  >
                  > 200 lbs of batteries is *far* from overloaded for an AF4.
                  > 200 lbs of batteries would sink the AF4 only about 1/2".
                  > The AF4 obviously has a lot of intial stability, but with a hull
                  > weight of 350 pounds, a shifting of the 'live load', [that is people
                  > and gear], would dominate the 'righting moment' effect on
                  > the stability curve.
                  >
                  > Visualize this: A bare AF4 lying on its side, with ??? lbs of gear
                  > and people on the downward side of the boat. Such would be
                  > stable in the 'on its side' position, with essentially no positive
                  > righting moment.
                  >
                  > Add, 200 pounds of fixed ballast fastened to the 'bottom' giving
                  > roughly 400 foot-pounds of positive righting moment, and a
                  > fighting chance to flip the boat back upright.
                  >
                  > If nothing else, it would be prudent to provide tiedowns in
                  > an AF4 for gear, [especially for your water jugs], so that if
                  > knocked over, the weight would not shift to the downward
                  > side.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Chuck Leinweber
                  ... I d say this is true of just about any boat, Bruce. Good advice! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 /
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                    > If nothing else, it would be prudent to provide tiedowns in
                    > an AF4 for gear, [especially for your water jugs], so that if
                    > knocked over, the weight would not shift to the downward
                    > side.

                    I'd say this is true of just about any boat, Bruce. Good advice!

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                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... For sure. Fresh in my mind is the recent Lake George tour boat disaster. I suspect that some hard ballast in their bilge could have saved lives. An AF4
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                      On 10/6/05, John Bell wrote:
                      > If your motorboat is on its side, something is BAD wrong.

                      For sure. Fresh in my mind is the recent Lake George
                      tour boat disaster. I suspect that some hard ballast in
                      their bilge could have saved lives.

                      An AF4 gets up on plane, so I can imagine it could
                      hit something, a big wake, a dock, etc., or perhaps
                      it could be overpowered and then turn quick and trip;
                      conceivably it could be put up on it's side.
                    • Chuck Leinweber
                      ... I have to disagree with that, Bruce. I read this morning that not only was the CG rating based on a terribly unrealistic average of 140 lbs per person,
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                        > For sure. Fresh in my mind is the recent Lake George

                        > tour boat disaster. I suspect that some hard ballast in

                        > their bilge could have saved lives.



                        I have to disagree with that, Bruce. I read this morning that not only was
                        the CG rating based on a terribly unrealistic average of 140 lbs per person,
                        but the boat had been modified with a larger engine than when it got it's
                        original rating and it had also got - get this - a plywood and fiberglass
                        canopy built on to replace the canvas one it first had. The boat was
                        apparently severely overloaded and top heavy. I seriously doubt that the
                        addition of ballast would have helped:



                        HYPERLINK
                        "http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/05/boat.overturned.ap/index.html"http://www.c
                        nn.com/2005/US/10/05/boat.overturned.ap/index.html



                        Chuck




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                        Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bruce Hallman
                        ... You are right fixed ballast wouldn t have helped an overloaded boat, (but it could have helped a top heavy boat with reserve buoyancy to spare. ) An AF4
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                          > apparently severely overloaded and top heavy. I seriously doubt that the
                          > addition of ballast would have helped:

                          You are right fixed ballast wouldn't have helped an overloaded boat,

                          (but it could have helped a top heavy boat with reserve buoyancy
                          to spare. )

                          An AF4 should have plenty of spare reserve buoyancy, IMO.
                        • Chuck Leinweber
                          I seem to be having trouble with urls this morning. Here is the news story on the capsize: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/05/boat.overturned.ap/index.html
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                            I seem to be having trouble with urls this morning. Here is the news story
                            on the capsize:

                            http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/05/boat.overturned.ap/index.html

                            Chuck

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                            Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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                          • John B. Trussell
                            I put a nylon drain with a screw in nylon plug in my Mixer. Drill a suitable hole in the bottom (and off to one side is better than center). When you do that,
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                              I put a nylon drain with a screw in nylon plug in my Mixer. Drill a
                              suitable hole in the bottom (and off to one side is better than center).
                              When you do that, you are exposing considerable plywood edge grain and that
                              needs to be sealed with a couple of coats of epoxy. When that dries, epoxy
                              the drain in place. When the epoxy cures, trim the drain flush with the
                              bottom, screw in the plug, and you should be good to go.

                              John T
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "awellbalancedgun" <awellbalancedgun@...>
                              To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:18 AM
                              Subject: [Michalak] Drainplug Details (Was: Does anyone use a drain plug?)


                              >I did not install a drain plug in my Mixer, but the arguments have
                              > convinced me that I should consider doing so. What size/type of
                              > plug are you guys using? Are you keeping the outside of the plug
                              > flush with the bottom of the boat, or not caring about a bit of
                              > drag? Any difference in detailing required for sailboats versus
                              > power boats like your AF4s?
                              >
                              > Tom Hamernik
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@g...> wrote:
                              >> Here here. I second what Max says about your boat never being
                              > level.
                              >>
                              >> I put one drain on the port side of my transom, and I located
                              > another
                              >> just forward of the bulkhead in the cabin - in the center.
                              >>
                              >> So naturally my boat always leans to the right and I have to chock
                              > up
                              >> my right tire to get my boat to drain. If I had it to do over
                              > again I
                              >> would put one on each side of the transom. I put the one in the
                              > cabin
                              >> on the center so it could pass through the center skid and have the
                              >> advantage of that thickness for a better fitting plug. It has not
                              >> been a real problem, 1 because I keep the cabin covered in the
                              > rain,
                              >> so I am only draining that area during a hoseout, 2. It's no big
                              > deal
                              >> to bail and sponge out the little bit of water that goes to
                              > whichever
                              >> side is lower.
                              >>
                              >> So that's my recommendation, one as far to each side of the transom
                              >> and one on the center skid just forward of the middle bulkhead.
                              >>
                              >> Don't forget to smooth your holes out nice with a bit of sandpaper
                              > on
                              >> a dowell, and warm them up real good with a heat gun or hair dryer,
                              >> then apply warm unthickened epoxy as it cools so it soaks in good.
                              > You
                              >> might want to add several applications if you can without getting
                              > the
                              >> inside surface messy. They can be a point for water and rot to
                              > get in
                              >> the ply, but I did mine as stated, and have no sign of problems
                              > after
                              >> a few years of hard usage. I've had to replace all the plugs.
                              >>
                              >> Don't be afraid to drill holes in the bottom of your boat. You can
                              >> always fill them with epoxy past later if you don't like where they
                              >> are- and drill more. So why haven't I drilled another one on the
                              >> right side of my transom . . .? Inertia I guess.
                              >> Rhett Davis
                              >> Happy AF4 Builder/Owner
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                              > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 10/3/2005
                              >
                              >
                            • graeme19121984
                              ... per person, ... got it s ... fiberglass ... was ... that the ... It also had thwartships bench seating unequally divided port and starboard, two one side
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 6, 2005
                                >I read this morning that not only was
                                > the CG rating based on a terribly unrealistic average of 140 lbs
                                per person,
                                > but the boat had been modified with a larger engine than when it
                                got it's
                                > original rating and it had also got - get this - a plywood and
                                fiberglass
                                > canopy built on to replace the canvas one it first had. The boat
                                was
                                > apparently severely overloaded and top heavy. I seriously doubt
                                that the
                                > addition of ballast would have helped:
                                > Chuck

                                It also had thwartships bench seating unequally divided port and
                                starboard, two one side and three the other. Further, a naval
                                academic professor expert in small boat safety, not with the
                                investigation, said the people who were really culpable were the
                                ones who placed all that seating on a new RAISED deck! "...akin to
                                standing up in a canoe"!

                                http://www.wnyt.com/x5369.xml?ag=x995&sb=x183


                                Graeme
                              • robrohdeszudy
                                Hey Tom. I m with Chuck. I wouldn t mess with it in a boat so easily inverted. And I think you ll have trouble getting one installed in a 1/4 bottom. I didn t
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 7, 2005
                                  Hey Tom. I'm with Chuck. I wouldn't mess with it in a boat so easily
                                  inverted. And I think you'll have trouble getting one installed in a
                                  1/4" bottom. I didn't even bother with one on the schooner, simply
                                  adding a polytarp cover to keep the rain out. The only time it would
                                  be an advantage for me is when giving the boat a bath, and I don't do
                                  that too often.
                                  --Rob

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "awellbalancedgun"
                                  <awellbalancedgun@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I did not install a drain plug in my Mixer, but the arguments have
                                  > convinced me that I should consider doing so. What size/type of
                                  > plug are you guys using? Are you keeping the outside of the plug
                                  > flush with the bottom of the boat, or not caring about a bit of
                                  > drag? Any difference in detailing required for sailboats versus
                                  > power boats like your AF4s?
                                  >
                                  > Tom Hamernik
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ravenouspi" <ravenous@g...> wrote:
                                  > > Here here. I second what Max says about your boat never being
                                  > level.
                                  > >
                                  > > I put one drain on the port side of my transom, and I located
                                  > another
                                  > > just forward of the bulkhead in the cabin - in the center.
                                  > >
                                  > > So naturally my boat always leans to the right and I have to
                                  chock
                                  > up
                                  > > my right tire to get my boat to drain. If I had it to do over
                                  > again I
                                  > > would put one on each side of the transom. I put the one in the
                                  > cabin
                                  > > on the center so it could pass through the center skid and have
                                  the
                                  > > advantage of that thickness for a better fitting plug. It has not
                                  > > been a real problem, 1 because I keep the cabin covered in the
                                  > rain,
                                  > > so I am only draining that area during a hoseout, 2. It's no big
                                  > deal
                                  > > to bail and sponge out the little bit of water that goes to
                                  > whichever
                                  > > side is lower.
                                  > >
                                  > > So that's my recommendation, one as far to each side of the
                                  transom
                                  > > and one on the center skid just forward of the middle bulkhead.
                                  > >
                                  > > Don't forget to smooth your holes out nice with a bit of
                                  sandpaper
                                  > on
                                  > > a dowell, and warm them up real good with a heat gun or hair
                                  dryer,
                                  > > then apply warm unthickened epoxy as it cools so it soaks in
                                  good.
                                  > You
                                  > > might want to add several applications if you can without getting
                                  > the
                                  > > inside surface messy. They can be a point for water and rot to
                                  > get in
                                  > > the ply, but I did mine as stated, and have no sign of problems
                                  > after
                                  > > a few years of hard usage. I've had to replace all the plugs.
                                  > >
                                  > > Don't be afraid to drill holes in the bottom of your boat. You
                                  can
                                  > > always fill them with epoxy past later if you don't like where
                                  they
                                  > > are- and drill more. So why haven't I drilled another one on the
                                  > > right side of my transom . . .? Inertia I guess.
                                  > > Rhett Davis
                                  > > Happy AF4 Builder/Owner
                                  >
                                • Chris Stewart
                                  ... If your tarp rips or gets partially blown off in a bad storm, and your boat then gets a more than few inches of water in it, it may not be quite so easy to
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 7, 2005
                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "robrohdeszudy" <robrohdeszudy@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hey Tom. I'm with Chuck. I wouldn't mess with it in a boat so easily
                                    > inverted. And I think you'll have trouble getting one installed in a
                                    > 1/4" bottom. I didn't even bother with one on the schooner, simply
                                    > adding a polytarp cover to keep the rain out. The only time it would
                                    > be an advantage for me is when giving the boat a bath, and I don't do
                                    > that too often.
                                    > --Rob

                                    If your tarp rips or gets partially blown off in a bad storm, and your
                                    boat then gets a more than few inches of water in it, it may not be
                                    quite so easy to invert. Also, I think I've seen a photo of a small
                                    boat that was destroyed because it filled with water and, being on
                                    sawhorses, was not adequately supported to handle the weight. A drain
                                    plug, left open, would have saved the boat.

                                    Chris Stewart
                                  • Chris Stewart
                                    ... wrote: hole shrinkers are difficult to find these days. ... Fill the hole with thickened epoxy and redrill. Doing this with a hole intentionally drilled
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 7, 2005
                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
                                      wrote:
                                      hole shrinkers are difficult to find these days.
                                      >

                                      Fill the hole with thickened epoxy and redrill. Doing this with a hole
                                      intentionally drilled oversize is a much better way to seal the
                                      endgrain of the plywood than just warming the plywood and using
                                      unthickened epoxy.

                                      Chris Stewart
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