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Re: Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

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  • garyf@pacbell.net
    Hi Teddi, ... They all could be a different gggrandparent and they may not be a gggrandparent as these are estimates. The way to find out if there is a common
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 3, 2013
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      Hi Teddi,
      > Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our
      > Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and
      > Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely share
      > grt grt grandparents? (Alfred and Arthur are 1st cousins to each
      > other). I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!

      They all could be a different gggrandparent and they may not be a gggrandparent as these are estimates. The way to find out if there is a common ancestor between these lines is to use the Chromosome browser to see if you have an overlapping segment and how long is it.

      Gary

      --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
      >
      > Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our
      > Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and
      > Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely share
      > grt grt grandparents? (Alfred and Arthur are 1st cousins to each
      > other). I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!
      >
      > YET Alberto M. does not show up as a match to Alfred's full brother
      > (the Y 67 tester) OR anyone else in our 8 kits..ONLY shows up on
      > Alfred Sanchez' FF and Arthur Contreras'.
      >
      > I just need someone else to read thru the notes below and state what
      > we NOW have learned ? Alberto is related to our Y line AND also some
      > other way....
      >
      > Teddi Montes
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sep 2, 2013, at 9:58 PM, garyf@... wrote:
      >
      > > Hi Teddi,
      > > you lost me after "I need new eyes".
      > >
      > > Not sure what your question is specifically?
      > >
      > > Gary
      > >
      > > --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I
      > > > don't know just made the big picture more confusing. Perhaps someone
      > > > here can see something I am missing??? These families' roots all lie
      > > > in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had
      > > > some sort of organization (after over 35 years of research in
      > > > Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it
      > > > clearer--I really am NOT sure.
      > > > >
      > > > > Opinions requested........................
      > > > >
      > > > > .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF
      > > results
      > > > > but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.
      > > > >
      > > > > James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as
      > > indicated by
      > > > > FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67.
      > > Dolores S.
      > > > > is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who
      > > married 2
      > > > > sisters, Anita and TC.
      > > > >
      > > > > James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
      > > > > (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close
      > > area of
      > > > > northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred
      > > and
      > > > > Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's
      > > grt
      > > > > grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.
      > > > >
      > > > > So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased)
      > > and his
      > > > > results just came in.
      > > > >
      > > > > Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is
      > > indicated as
      > > > > a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF
      > > match to
      > > > > James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the
      > > > > family-
      > > > > the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest
      > > block
      > > > > is 17.18.
      > > > >
      > > > > NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------
      > > > >
      > > > > Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named
      > > Arthur
      > > > > C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
      > > > > Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
      > > > > Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
      > > > > male names..
      > > > >
      > > > > Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF
      > > and
      > > > > rest of the S. side of the family.
      > > > >
      > > > > Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
      > > > > Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
      > > > > appear on Alfred's list.
      > > > >
      > > > > The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur
      > > C. is
      > > > > on chr.#4.
      > > > >
      > > > > Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
      > > > > shared segments=15.
      > > > >
      > > > > Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
      > > > > shared segments=13.
      > > > >
      > > > > I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
      > > > > ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a
      > > match
      > > > > to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
      > > > > Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
      > > > > descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.
      > > > >
      > > > > Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also
      > > that Y
      > > > > match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of
      > > northern
      > > > > Mexico.
      > > > >
      > > > > Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with
      > > eyes
      > > > > wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
      > > > > Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is
      > > related
      > > > > only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
      > > > > meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his
      > > DNA to
      > > > > sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????
      > > > >
      > > > > What do I think I know here?
      > > > >
      > > > > Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred.
      > > This
      > > > > places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
      > > > > frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first
      > > half of
      > > > > the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough
      > > time to
      > > > > live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
      > > > > threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins
      > > as
      > > > > recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they
      > > share
      > > > > grt grt grandparents, right?
      > > > >
      > > > > Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
      > > > > and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and
      > > clarity as
      > > > > it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!
      > > > >
      > > > > I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to
      > > his
      > > > > match list if she allows.
      > > > >
      > > > > Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle.
      > > After
      > > > > 35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
      > > > > genetic genealogy can be confusing.
      > > > >
      > > > > Teddi Montes
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Peggy Deras
      Gary, How long does an overlapping segment need to be to indicate a common ancestor in the Chromosome browser? I did the tutorial in the Chromosome browser,
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 4, 2013
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        Gary,
        How long does an overlapping segment need to be to indicate a common ancestor in the Chromosome browser?
        I did the tutorial in the Chromosome browser, but I don't really "get" it.
        It seems as though physically longer segments don't necessarily translate into numerically  longer segments.

        Peggy

        Tue Sep 3, 2013 7:26 pm (PDT) . Posted by:


        "garyf@..." garyf@...

        Hi Teddi,
        > Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our
        > Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and
        > Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely
        share
        > grt grt grandparents? (Alfred and Arthur are 1st cousins to each
        > other). I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!

        They all could be a different gggrandparent and they may not be a gggrandparent as these are estimates. The way to find out if there is a common ancestor between these lines is to use the Chromosome browser to see if you have an overlapping segment and how long is it.

        Gary


      • garyf@pacbell.net
        Hi Peggy, some SNP s take up a lot of real estate so they appear longer than others with the same amount of SNP s. As a general rule I would use lengths of 5cM
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 4, 2013
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          Hi Peggy,
          some SNP's take up a lot of real estate so they appear longer than others with the same amount of SNP's.

          As a general rule I would use lengths of 5cM or you risk being identical by state or IBS rather than descent IBD. Of course the more cM's the better.

          Saludos,
          Gary

          --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Peggy Deras <pderas@...> wrote:
          >
          > Gary,
          > How long does an overlapping segment need to be to indicate a common
          > ancestor in the Chromosome browser?
          > I did the tutorial in the Chromosome browser, but I don't really "get" it.
          > It seems as though physically longer segments don't necessarily
          > translate into numerically longer segments.
          >
          > Peggy
          >
          >
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