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Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

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  • Teddi Montes
    I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I don t know just made the big picture more confusing. Perhaps someone here can see
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
      I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I don't know just made the big picture more confusing.  Perhaps someone here can see something I am missing???  These families' roots all lie in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had some sort of organization  (after over 35 years of research in Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it clearer--I really am NOT sure.

       

      Opinions requested........................

      .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
      but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.

      James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
      FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
      is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
      sisters, Anita and TC.

      James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
      (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
      northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
      Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
      grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.

      So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
      results just came in.

      Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
      a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
      James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the family-
      the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
      is 17.18.

      NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------

      Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
      C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
      Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
      Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
      male names..

      Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
      rest of the S. side of the family.

      Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
      Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
      appear on Alfred's list.

      The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
      on chr.#4.

      Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
      shared segments=15.

      Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
      shared segments=13.

      I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
      ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
      to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
      Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
      descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.

      Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
      match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
      Mexico.

      Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
      wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
      Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
      only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
      meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
      sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????

      What do I think I know here?

      Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
      places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
      frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
      the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
      live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
      threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
      recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
      grt grt grandparents, right?

      Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
      and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
      it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!

      I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
      match list if she allows.

      Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
      35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
      genetic genealogy can be confusing.

      Teddi Montes



    • Jose rodriguez
      So as not to complicate matters even more, here are some facts.  People with Spanish lat names came from Spain and settle mainly in an around Mexico City.
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
        So as not to complicate matters even more, here are some facts.  People with Spanish lat names came from Spain and settle mainly in an around Mexico City. From there, they moved north to settle the northern frontiers. They more than likely left some relatives back in Central Mexico.  Some return but left people in the Northern frontiers as well.  My maternal gran mother from Michoacan is a Montes. Her father was full blooded Tarazco/Purepecha.  I am sure i have family from this lineage all over.




        From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
        To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:37 PM
        Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

         
        I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I don't know just made the big picture more confusing.  Perhaps someone here can see something I am missing???  These families' roots all lie in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had some sort of organization  (after over 35 years of research in Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it clearer--I really am NOT sure.

         
        Opinions requested........................

        .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
        but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.

        James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
        FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
        is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
        sisters, Anita and TC.

        James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
        (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
        northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
        Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
        grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.

        So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
        results just came in.

        Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
        a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
        James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the family-
        the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
        is 17.18.

        NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------

        Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
        C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
        Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
        Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
        male names..

        Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
        rest of the S. side of the family.

        Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
        Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
        appear on Alfred's list.

        The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
        on chr.#4.

        Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
        shared segments=15.

        Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
        shared segments=13.

        I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
        ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
        to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
        Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
        descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.

        Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
        match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
        Mexico.

        Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
        wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
        Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
        only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
        meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
        sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????

        What do I think I know here?

        Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
        places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
        frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
        the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
        live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
        threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
        recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
        grt grt grandparents, right?

        Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
        and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
        it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!

        I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
        match list if she allows.

        Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
        35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
        genetic genealogy can be confusing.

        Teddi Montes




      • Teddi Montes
        Thank you for your reply. My Montes is from Chihuahua and so far I have the Montes line researched back to 1800 and earlier in the Chihuahua area. That said,
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
          Thank you for your reply.   My Montes is from Chihuahua and so far I have the Montes line researched back to 1800 and earlier in the Chihuahua area.

          That said, the Montes line is in no way RELATED to the problem I have presented as my abuelo Montes  came from Chihuahua to California and married in 1926 INTO this family of Sanchez-Vasquez-Marron-Carrillo  etc....    I suspect our Montes line was from a Montes de Oca background.....1600s or so.

          Teddi Montes
          The Californio DNA Project
           familia Sanchez Amado  (Sonora)
          familia Marrpn Carrillo (Baja California Sur)
          My other 4WD is a Baja mule!



          On Sep 2, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Jose rodriguez wrote:

           

          So as not to complicate matters even more, here are some facts.  People with Spanish lat names came from Spain and settle mainly in an around Mexico City. From there, they moved north to settle the northern frontiers. They more than likely left some relatives back in Central Mexico.  Some return but left people in the Northern frontiers as well.  My maternal gran mother from Michoacan is a Montes. Her father was full blooded Tarazco/Purepecha.  I am sure i have family from this lineage all over.




          From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
          To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:37 PM
          Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

           
          I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I don't know just made the big picture more confusing.  Perhaps someone here can see something I am missing???  These families' roots all lie in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had some sort of organization  (after over 35 years of research in Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it clearer--I really am NOT sure.

           
          Opinions requested........................

          .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
          but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.

          James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
          FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
          is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
          sisters, Anita and TC.

          James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
          (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
          northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
          Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
          grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.

          So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
          results just came in.

          Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
          a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
          James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the family-
          the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
          is 17.18.

          NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------

          Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
          C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
          Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
          Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
          male names..

          Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
          rest of the S. side of the family.

          Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
          Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
          appear on Alfred's list.

          The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
          on chr.#4.

          Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
          shared segments=15.

          Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
          shared segments=13.

          I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
          ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
          to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
          Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
          descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.

          Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
          match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
          Mexico.

          Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
          wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
          Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
          only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
          meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
          sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????

          What do I think I know here?

          Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
          places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
          frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
          the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
          live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
          threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
          recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
          grt grt grandparents, right?

          Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
          and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
          it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!

          I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
          match list if she allows.

          Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
          35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
          genetic genealogy can be confusing.

          Teddi Montes






        • Jose rodriguez
          Teddi, they came from somewhere to chihuahua. Most people did not come directly from Spain to Northern Mexico. do you know from where?
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
            Teddi, they came from somewhere to chihuahua. Most people did not come directly from Spain to Northern Mexico.
            do you know from where?


            From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
            To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 1:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

             
            Thank you for your reply.   My Montes is from Chihuahua and so far I have the Montes line researched back to 1800 and earlier in the Chihuahua area.

            That said, the Montes line is in no way RELATED to the problem I have presented as my abuelo Montes  came from Chihuahua to California and married in 1926 INTO this family of Sanchez-Vasquez-Marron-Carrillo  etc....    I suspect our Montes line was from a Montes de Oca background.....1600s or so.

            Teddi Montes
            The Californio DNA Project
             familia Sanchez Amado  (Sonora)
            familia Marrpn Carrillo (Baja California Sur)
            My other 4WD is a Baja mule!



            On Sep 2, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Jose rodriguez wrote:

             

            So as not to complicate matters even more, here are some facts.  People with Spanish lat names came from Spain and settle mainly in an around Mexico City. From there, they moved north to settle the northern frontiers. They more than likely left some relatives back in Central Mexico.  Some return but left people in the Northern frontiers as well.  My maternal gran mother from Michoacan is a Montes. Her father was full blooded Tarazco/Purepecha.  I am sure i have family from this lineage all over.




            From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
            To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:37 PM
            Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

             
            I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I don't know just made the big picture more confusing.  Perhaps someone here can see something I am missing???  These families' roots all lie in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had some sort of organization  (after over 35 years of research in Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it clearer--I really am NOT sure.

             
            Opinions requested........................

            .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
            but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.

            James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
            FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
            is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
            sisters, Anita and TC.

            James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
            (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
            northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
            Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
            grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.

            So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
            results just came in.

            Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
            a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
            James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the family-
            the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
            is 17.18.

            NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------

            Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
            C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
            Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
            Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
            male names..

            Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
            rest of the S. side of the family.

            Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
            Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
            appear on Alfred's list.

            The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
            on chr.#4.

            Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
            shared segments=15.

            Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
            shared segments=13.

            I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
            ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
            to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
            Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
            descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.

            Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
            match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
            Mexico.

            Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
            wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
            Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
            only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
            meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
            sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????

            What do I think I know here?

            Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
            places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
            frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
            the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
            live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
            threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
            recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
            grt grt grandparents, right?

            Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
            and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
            it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!

            I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
            match list if she allows.

            Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
            35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
            genetic genealogy can be confusing.

            Teddi Montes








          • Teddi Montes
            Jose, No, I have not been working on the Montes side for over 10 years as I have my hands full with the Baja & Alta California, Sonora, Sinaloa folks of the
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
              Jose,

              No, I have not been working on the Montes side for over 10 years as I have my hands full with the Baja & Alta California, Sonora, Sinaloa folks of the 1600-1800s.....I have also started a Californio DNA Project for old families of Baja and Alta California and have over 4000 names just for those locations in my database.  I have been compiling pedigrees for these pre-1800 Baja California foundng families for over 40 years and now I am hauling FTDNA test kits by mule all over remote ranchos in Baja California Sur-looking for "victims" and collecting family data..

              The Montes line will have to wait as there is only one of me.......

              Teddi Montes



              On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:21 PM, Jose rodriguez wrote:

               

              Teddi, they came from somewhere to chihuahua. Most people did not come directly from Spain to Northern Mexico.
              do you know from where?


              From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
              To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 1:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

               
              Thank you for your reply.   My Montes is from Chihuahua and so far I have the Montes line researched back to 1800 and earlier in the Chihuahua area.

              That said, the Montes line is in no way RELATED to the problem I have presented as my abuelo Montes  came from Chihuahua to California and married in 1926 INTO this family of Sanchez-Vasquez-Marron-Carrillo  etc....    I suspect our Montes line was from a Montes de Oca background.....1600s or so.

              Teddi Montes
              The Californio DNA Project
               familia Sanchez Amado  (Sonora)
              familia Marrpn Carrillo (Baja California Sur)
              My other 4WD is a Baja mule!



              On Sep 2, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Jose rodriguez wrote:

               

              So as not to complicate matters even more, here are some facts.  People with Spanish lat names came from Spain and settle mainly in an around Mexico City. From there, they moved north to settle the northern frontiers. They more than likely left some relatives back in Central Mexico.  Some return but left people in the Northern frontiers as well.  My maternal gran mother from Michoacan is a Montes. Her father was full blooded Tarazco/Purepecha.  I am sure i have family from this lineage all over.




              From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
              To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:37 PM
              Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Thoughts or Ideas from new Eyes please Gary or ?

               
              I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I don't know just made the big picture more confusing.  Perhaps someone here can see something I am missing???  These families' roots all lie in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had some sort of organization  (after over 35 years of research in Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it clearer--I really am NOT sure.

               
              Opinions requested........................

              .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
              but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.

              James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
              FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
              is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
              sisters, Anita and TC.

              James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
              (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
              northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
              Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
              grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.

              So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
              results just came in.

              Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
              a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
              James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the family-
              the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
              is 17.18.

              NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------

              Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
              C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
              Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
              Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
              male names..

              Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
              rest of the S. side of the family.

              Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
              Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
              appear on Alfred's list.

              The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
              on chr.#4.

              Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
              shared segments=15.

              Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
              shared segments=13.

              I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
              ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
              to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
              Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
              descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.

              Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
              match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
              Mexico.

              Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
              wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
              Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
              only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
              meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
              sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????

              What do I think I know here?

              Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
              places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
              frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
              the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
              live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
              threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
              recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
              grt grt grandparents, right?

              Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
              and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
              it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!

              I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
              match list if she allows.

              Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
              35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
              genetic genealogy can be confusing.

              Teddi Montes










            • garyf@pacbell.net
              Hi Teddi, you lost me after I need new eyes . Not sure what your question is specifically? Gary
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
                Hi Teddi,
                you lost me after "I need new eyes".

                Not sure what your question is specifically?

                Gary

                --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
                >
                > I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I
                > don't know just made the big picture more confusing. Perhaps someone
                > here can see something I am missing??? These families' roots all lie
                > in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had
                > some sort of organization (after over 35 years of research in
                > Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it
                > clearer--I really am NOT sure.
                > >
                > > Opinions requested........................
                > >
                > > .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
                > > but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.
                > >
                > > James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
                > > FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
                > > is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
                > > sisters, Anita and TC.
                > >
                > > James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
                > > (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
                > > northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
                > > Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
                > > grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.
                > >
                > > So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
                > > results just came in.
                > >
                > > Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
                > > a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
                > > James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the
                > > family-
                > > the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
                > > is 17.18.
                > >
                > > NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------
                > >
                > > Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
                > > C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
                > > Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
                > > Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
                > > male names..
                > >
                > > Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
                > > rest of the S. side of the family.
                > >
                > > Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
                > > Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
                > > appear on Alfred's list.
                > >
                > > The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
                > > on chr.#4.
                > >
                > > Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
                > > shared segments=15.
                > >
                > > Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
                > > shared segments=13.
                > >
                > > I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
                > > ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
                > > to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
                > > Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
                > > descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.
                > >
                > > Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
                > > match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
                > > Mexico.
                > >
                > > Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
                > > wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
                > > Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
                > > only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
                > > meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
                > > sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????
                > >
                > > What do I think I know here?
                > >
                > > Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
                > > places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
                > > frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
                > > the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
                > > live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
                > > threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
                > > recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
                > > grt grt grandparents, right?
                > >
                > > Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
                > > and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
                > > it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!
                > >
                > > I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
                > > match list if she allows.
                > >
                > > Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
                > > 35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
                > > genetic genealogy can be confusing.
                > >
                > > Teddi Montes
                > >
                >
              • Teddi Montes
                Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and Arthur Contreras---does this mean
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 2, 2013
                    Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely share grt grt grandparents?   (Alfred  and Arthur are 1st cousins to each other).  I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!

                  YET Alberto M. does not show up as a match to Alfred's full brother (the Y 67 tester) OR anyone else in our 8 kits..ONLY shows up on Alfred Sanchez' FF and Arthur Contreras'.

                  I just need someone else to read thru the notes below and state what we NOW have learned ?  Alberto is related to our Y line AND also some other way....

                  Teddi Montes


                     
                  On Sep 2, 2013, at 9:58 PM, garyf@... wrote:

                   

                  Hi Teddi,
                  you lost me after "I need new eyes".

                  Not sure what your question is specifically?

                  Gary

                  --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I
                  > don't know just made the big picture more confusing. Perhaps someone
                  > here can see something I am missing??? These families' roots all lie
                  > in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had
                  > some sort of organization (after over 35 years of research in
                  > Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it
                  > clearer--I really am NOT sure.
                  > >
                  > > Opinions requested........................
                  > >
                  > > .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF results
                  > > but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.
                  > >
                  > > James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as indicated by
                  > > FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67. Dolores S.
                  > > is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who married 2
                  > > sisters, Anita and TC.
                  > >
                  > > James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
                  > > (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close area of
                  > > northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred and
                  > > Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's grt
                  > > grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.
                  > >
                  > > So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased) and his
                  > > results just came in.
                  > >
                  > > Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is indicated as
                  > > a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF match to
                  > > James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the
                  > > family-
                  > > the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest block
                  > > is 17.18.
                  > >
                  > > NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------
                  > >
                  > > Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named Arthur
                  > > C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
                  > > Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
                  > > Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
                  > > male names..
                  > >
                  > > Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF and
                  > > rest of the S. side of the family.
                  > >
                  > > Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
                  > > Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
                  > > appear on Alfred's list.
                  > >
                  > > The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur C. is
                  > > on chr.#4.
                  > >
                  > > Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
                  > > shared segments=15.
                  > >
                  > > Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
                  > > shared segments=13.
                  > >
                  > > I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
                  > > ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a match
                  > > to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
                  > > Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
                  > > descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.
                  > >
                  > > Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also that Y
                  > > match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of northern
                  > > Mexico.
                  > >
                  > > Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with eyes
                  > > wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
                  > > Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is related
                  > > only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
                  > > meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his DNA to
                  > > sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????
                  > >
                  > > What do I think I know here?
                  > >
                  > > Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred. This
                  > > places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
                  > > frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first half of
                  > > the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough time to
                  > > live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
                  > > threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins as
                  > > recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they share
                  > > grt grt grandparents, right?
                  > >
                  > > Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
                  > > and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and clarity as
                  > > it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!
                  > >
                  > > I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to his
                  > > match list if she allows.
                  > >
                  > > Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle. After
                  > > 35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
                  > > genetic genealogy can be confusing.
                  > >
                  > > Teddi Montes
                  > >
                  >


                • garyf@pacbell.net
                  Hi Teddi, ... They all could be a different gggrandparent and they may not be a gggrandparent as these are estimates. The way to find out if there is a common
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 3, 2013
                    Hi Teddi,
                    > Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our
                    > Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and
                    > Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely share
                    > grt grt grandparents? (Alfred and Arthur are 1st cousins to each
                    > other). I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!

                    They all could be a different gggrandparent and they may not be a gggrandparent as these are estimates. The way to find out if there is a common ancestor between these lines is to use the Chromosome browser to see if you have an overlapping segment and how long is it.

                    Gary

                    --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our
                    > Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and
                    > Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely share
                    > grt grt grandparents? (Alfred and Arthur are 1st cousins to each
                    > other). I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!
                    >
                    > YET Alberto M. does not show up as a match to Alfred's full brother
                    > (the Y 67 tester) OR anyone else in our 8 kits..ONLY shows up on
                    > Alfred Sanchez' FF and Arthur Contreras'.
                    >
                    > I just need someone else to read thru the notes below and state what
                    > we NOW have learned ? Alberto is related to our Y line AND also some
                    > other way....
                    >
                    > Teddi Montes
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sep 2, 2013, at 9:58 PM, garyf@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hi Teddi,
                    > > you lost me after "I need new eyes".
                    > >
                    > > Not sure what your question is specifically?
                    > >
                    > > Gary
                    > >
                    > > --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I need new eyes and views on this matter as the latest FF on a guy I
                    > > > don't know just made the big picture more confusing. Perhaps someone
                    > > > here can see something I am missing??? These families' roots all lie
                    > > > in northern Sonora in the early 1800s but just when I thought I had
                    > > > some sort of organization (after over 35 years of research in
                    > > > Mexico), a Y 36/37 and FF messes up the puzzle pieces OR it makes it
                    > > > clearer--I really am NOT sure.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Opinions requested........................
                    > > > >
                    > > > > .And so the mystery deepens.....hoping for clarity w new FF
                    > > results
                    > > > > but.......welcome to the world of genetic genealogy.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > James S. and Alfred S. are full brothers (born 1920s) as
                    > > indicated by
                    > > > > FF and paper trail. Alfred has a Y-12, James is now Y 67.
                    > > Dolores S.
                    > > > > is first cousin to both-their dad's are full brothers who
                    > > married 2
                    > > > > sisters, Anita and TC.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > James has a 1 step Y match of 36/37 to a man named Alberto M.
                    > > > > (different surname) whose grandparents are from the same close
                    > > area of
                    > > > > northern Sonora, Mexico, where the grandfather of James, Alfred
                    > > and
                    > > > > Dolores is from in the early 1800s. In fact, this Alberto guy's
                    > > grt
                    > > > > grandparents are from the same area of a tiny village in 1840ish.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So I offered to pay for a FF test for Alberto (he is deceased)
                    > > and his
                    > > > > results just came in.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alberto (remember he is a 1 step Y36/37 for James...) is
                    > > indicated as
                    > > > > a FF 3rd cousin to only Alfred, and does not appear as a FF
                    > > match to
                    > > > > James or Dolores or any of the other members of our side of the
                    > > > > family-
                    > > > > the S. side). Alfred shared cM with Alberto is 53.03, longest
                    > > block
                    > > > > is 17.18.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > NOW throw in a monkey wrench possibly------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alberto ALSO appears as a FF 3rd cousin match to a man named
                    > > Arthur
                    > > > > C. Arthur C. is the son of a brother to the 2 above-named sisters,
                    > > > > Anita and TC. Arthur has 47.83 shared cM, longest block is 17.62.
                    > > > > Arthur C. has a very rare Y haplo-different from the rest of these
                    > > > > male names..
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Paternity of James, Alfred and Dolores has been confirmed via FF
                    > > and
                    > > > > rest of the S. side of the family.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alfred has 15 in common with Alberto M. names-some also appear on
                    > > > > Arthur's list. Arthur has 7 in common with names-some which also
                    > > > > appear on Alfred's list.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The match between these 3 guys-Alfred S, Alberto M. and Arthur
                    > > C. is
                    > > > > on chr.#4.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alfred's shared cM w Alberto M. is 53.03, longest block is 17.18,
                    > > > > shared segments=15.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Arthur's shared cM w Alberto M. is 47.83, longest block is 17.62,
                    > > > > shared segments=13.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am getting a gut feeling that Arthur's side of the family shares
                    > > > > ancestors back 2-4 generations but Arthur does not appear as a
                    > > match
                    > > > > to any one else in our family EXCEPT for the 2 brothers-James and
                    > > > > Alfred, and their 1st cousin, Dolores. I have 10 kits and most are
                    > > > > descendants of the grandparents of James, Alfred and Dolores.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Remember, James is 36/37 Y match to this Alberto M. guy. Also
                    > > that Y
                    > > > > match guy's grandparents are from the same general area of
                    > > northern
                    > > > > Mexico.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Instead of getting clarity, I am now laying in bed at night with
                    > > eyes
                    > > > > wide open, trying to figure out what the heck is going on! Doing
                    > > > > Arthur C.'s Y and FF was just on a spur of the moment-as he is
                    > > related
                    > > > > only thru marriage to me and he just happened to be at a S. Family
                    > > > > meeting-I had an extra FTDNA kit, ...I thought "I can use his
                    > > DNA to
                    > > > > sort out his and ours"....I mean how simple could THAT be?????
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What do I think I know here?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alberto M. is related through the male line of James and Alfred.
                    > > This
                    > > > > places their grandparents and grt grandparents in the same area of
                    > > > > frontier northern Sonora/southern modern Arizona, in the first
                    > > half of
                    > > > > the 1800s-think soldiers, ranchers, miners, and a very rough
                    > > time to
                    > > > > live there (for ALL people) because of Apache wars etc. IF the
                    > > > > threesome of Alfred S., Arthur C. and Alberto M. are 3rd cousins
                    > > as
                    > > > > recommended by the FF test, that indicates that most likely they
                    > > share
                    > > > > grt grt grandparents, right?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Anything I am missing here? I hope some one who has better insight
                    > > > > and education than I can throw me a few bones of hope and
                    > > clarity as
                    > > > > it seems the more I learn, the "loster" I am getting!!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have contacted the kit admin. for Alberto and will look in to
                    > > his
                    > > > > match list if she allows.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hoping to get some feedback here please......but do be gentle.
                    > > After
                    > > > > 35+ years of papertrail chasing-early California and Mexico, this
                    > > > > genetic genealogy can be confusing.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Teddi Montes
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Peggy Deras
                    Gary, How long does an overlapping segment need to be to indicate a common ancestor in the Chromosome browser? I did the tutorial in the Chromosome browser,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 4, 2013
                      Gary,
                      How long does an overlapping segment need to be to indicate a common ancestor in the Chromosome browser?
                      I did the tutorial in the Chromosome browser, but I don't really "get" it.
                      It seems as though physically longer segments don't necessarily translate into numerically  longer segments.

                      Peggy

                      Tue Sep 3, 2013 7:26 pm (PDT) . Posted by:


                      "garyf@..." garyf@...

                      Hi Teddi,
                      > Basically is the guy below-Alberto M. (who is related on our
                      > Sanchez Y 36/37) AND the two FF 3rd cousins---Alfred Sanchez and
                      > Arthur Contreras---does this mean that these 3 guys most likely
                      share
                      > grt grt grandparents? (Alfred and Arthur are 1st cousins to each
                      > other). I don't even KNOW who Alberto M. is!

                      They all could be a different gggrandparent and they may not be a gggrandparent as these are estimates. The way to find out if there is a common ancestor between these lines is to use the Chromosome browser to see if you have an overlapping segment and how long is it.

                      Gary


                    • garyf@pacbell.net
                      Hi Peggy, some SNP s take up a lot of real estate so they appear longer than others with the same amount of SNP s. As a general rule I would use lengths of 5cM
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 4, 2013
                        Hi Peggy,
                        some SNP's take up a lot of real estate so they appear longer than others with the same amount of SNP's.

                        As a general rule I would use lengths of 5cM or you risk being identical by state or IBS rather than descent IBD. Of course the more cM's the better.

                        Saludos,
                        Gary

                        --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Peggy Deras <pderas@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gary,
                        > How long does an overlapping segment need to be to indicate a common
                        > ancestor in the Chromosome browser?
                        > I did the tutorial in the Chromosome browser, but I don't really "get" it.
                        > It seems as though physically longer segments don't necessarily
                        > translate into numerically longer segments.
                        >
                        > Peggy
                        >
                        >
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