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Re: R1b Origins

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  • mexr1b@att.net
    Which brings us back to my original inquiry. Have R1b people in the project been encouraged to test for DF27? They should at least test for P312 if they
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 5 8:32 PM
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      Which brings us back to my original inquiry. Have R1b people in the project been encouraged to test for DF27? They should at least test for P312 if they haven't. That way if they are P312- they can test for U106.

      Are there plans on creating a project page where we can see people grouped by haplogroup and subclade regardless of the surname?

      --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes new markers are being discovered so my info and FTDNA's for that matter is old. R1b-P312 is a much bigger than his parallel branch brother R1b-U106 which has one quarter of the frequency of R1b-P312. 
      >
      > A basic rule of population genetics is that climate moves populations and when stressed populations adapt, move or die.
      >
      >
      > Gary
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: "mexr1b@..." <armandor1b@...>
      > To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 2:07 PM
      > Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b Origins
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      > DF27 is downstream from P312 so all DF27+ testers are also P312+.
      > http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
      >
      > According to data found in the R1b Gateway project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx a majority of people from Spain are also a majority DF27+. Therefore, it seems that Iberian R1b is undifferentiated from Mexican R1b since DF27 also predominates in Mexican R1b.
      >
      > The data I pulled also agrees with the 1,000 Genomes data that Richard Rocca posted about at the following site.
      >
      > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10485.0
      >
      > Here is the breakdown:
      >
      > SNP Frequency
      > DF27+ 44.4% (12 of 27)
      > ... DF27* 14.8% (4 of 27)
      > ... Z196+ 25.9% (7 of 27)
      > ... Z225+ 3.7% (1 of 27)
      > L21+ 7.4% (2 of 27)
      > U152+ 7.4% (2 of 27)
      > L23* 3.7% (1 of 27)
      > P312* 3.7% (1 of 27)
      > U106+ 3.7% (1 of 27)
      > Total R1b 70.4% (19 of 27)
      >
      > --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The origins of the parallel branches are known for the "sons" of R1b-P312, based on prevalence which can be found on this section again of the project page:
      > > R1b1*-P25 R1b1* Deep Ancestry - Mediterranean. Currently predominately Jewish lines within this very rare and ancient sub-clade of R1b. Probably came to Iberia from North Africa with the Jews. Genetic evidence indicates that this group likely a victim of climate change in North Africa sought refuge 7Kya in the area north of lake Chad and other borderline areas of the Sahara. Probably descendants of the Ibero-Maurusians who came into North Africa 35K years ago near the end of a warming phase. - 04
      > > R1b1a-M18 Deep Ancestry - Found predominately in Sardinia -
      > > R1b1b1-M73 Deep Ancestry - Predominately Central Asian - 01
      > > R1b1b2*-M269 Deep Ancestry - Eastern European linage via the Eurasian Steppe -
      > > R1b-L23* or R1b-L150 (xP311) Deep Ancestry - Eastern European linage via the Eurasian Steppe into North Africa. Likely came into North Africa with R1b1* 35K years ago with the Ibero-Maurusians. - 02
      > > R1b-L21 Doggerland (ancient North Sea area) origin. Descendant of P312 which is most prevalent in Iberia. Archeological evidence shows the ancients moving to the North Sea area from Iberia starting about 14K years ago. M269>P312>L21 - 11
      > > R1b-M37 Deep Ancestry - Rare European linage found in Australia -
      > > R1b-M65 Deep Ancestry - Found predominatly in the Basque people of Spain and France -
      > > R1b-M153 Deep Ancestry - Found predominatly in the Basque people of Spain and France. Latest information on R1b1c4 (M153+). See M153 The Basque Marker Project). Suggest testing especially if 437=14 and 460=10. M269>P312>M153 - 02
      > > R1b-MSRY2627 Deep Ancestry - Ancient Iberian origin. Latest information on (MSRY2627+). Suggest testing especially if DYS490=10. Probably participated in the initial expansion out of Iberia after the last Ice Age. The rare value of DYS490=10 is present in about half of those testing positive for this mutation. M269>P312>MSRY2627. - 08
      > > R1b-M222 Deep Ancestry - Decendant of L21 above. NW Irish origin. DYS 439 = 11, DYS459 = 8-9, DYS464 = 13-13-15-17, DYS456 = 15, DYS463 = 23.Latest information on (M222+). -
      > > R1b-P66 Deep Ancestry - Rare Italian origin -
      > > R1b-U106 or S21 Deep Ancestry - Frisian origin. After the last Ice Age this group set out from the Eastern Refugium; North of the Black Sea and settled the eastern shores of the area known as Doggerland (which submerged in the North Sea about 6.5K years ago) as well as the southern shores of the Baltic. Thick grasses and open plain made this area attractive to wildlife. It is from this location that this group expanded. 13 at marker 492 is an identifying marker. Latest information on R1b1c9 (S21+). This test is now available at FTDNA and at Ethnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. M269>U106 or S21. - 05
      > > >R1b-U198 or S26 Deep Ancestry - Believed to be of English origin. This test is currently only available at Ethnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. -
      > > >R1b-P107 or S29 Deep Ancestry - This test is currently only available at Ethnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. -
      > > R1b-U152 or S28 Deep Ancestry - Origin in the area of Switzerland/Southern Germany. After the last Ice Age the antecedent of this group set out from Iberia to the area of Lake Constance on the Swiss Germany border in the first migration some 14.2K years ago. It is from this location that this group expanded into the area of Denmark 11K years ago when Doggerland existed. Distribution of this clan shows it used the Danube-Rhine-Thames to traverse central europe from its origin in the area of Lake Constance in Switzerland. See this site for the Latest information on R1b1c10 (S28+). Updated Analysis of the origin of R1b1c10 also known as Single Nucleotide Polymorphism S28. This test is currently available at FTDNA or at Ethnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. P312>U152 or S28. - 04
      > > >R1b-M126 Deep Ancestry - Analysis of the origin of R1b1c10 also known as Single Nucleotide Polymorphism S28. This test is currently only available atEthnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. -
      > > >R1b-M160 Deep Ancestry - Analysis of the origin of R1b1c10 also known as Single Nucleotide Polymorphism S28. This test is currently only available atEthnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. -
      > > R1b-M335 Deep Ancestry - Found in Camaroon and Turkey (unable to verify). SeeArticle: Y-DNA HAPLOGROUP R1b. -
      > >
      > > As soon as the prevalence was found to be at the heart of the origin of R1b-P312 in Northern Spain it would likewise be predominate in Latin America. The only other likely scenario is that Iberians would be undifferentiated R1b-P312 but when we started coming back DF27 this appeared to be less likely. Also the modal was the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH) the marker appears close to the origin of R1b-P312 geographically. 
      > >
      > > It doesn't take too many samples for founders to be found.
      > >
      > > Saludos,
      > > Gary 
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: "mexr1b@" <armandor1b@>
      > > To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:20 PM
      > > Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b Origins
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > I wasn't part of the group when it was sent out. The information you are providing is for some of the SNPs downstream from DF27 but not all of them. L176.2 is interestingly missing.
      > >
      > > What brought me to the question was a post I saw elsewhere that credits Richard Rocca for pointing out that 95.2% of Iberian P312+ testers are DF27+. Since your statement and his agreed then I figured you would urge participants to test for P312 and DF27.
      > >
      > > I'm not as interesting in population movements as I am in finding out which R1b subclades are more prevalent in existing Mexican and Iberian populations and which are found to some degree and which are almost non-existent.
      > >
      > > It seems just over a year ago it was not known that Iberian P312 were a majority DF27. That is about when posts start to appear about it in various websites and in the Richard Rocca et al report.
      > >
      > > http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041634
      > >
      > > --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, Gary Felix <garyf@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello,
      > > > I believe I sent out a bulk email when DF27 came around some time ago. 
      > > >
      > > > Here are the identifying STR's from information on the project page:
      > > > R1b-M153 Deep Ancestry - Found predominatly in the Basque people of Spain and France. Latest information on R1b1c4 (M153+). See M153 The Basque Marker Project). Suggest testing especially if 437=14 and 460=10. M269>P312>M153 - 02
      > > > R1b-MSRY2627 Deep Ancestry - Ancient Iberian origin. Latest information on (MSRY2627+). Suggest testing especially if DYS490=10. Probably participated in the initial expansion out of Iberia after the last Ice Age. The rare value of DYS490=10 is present in about half of those testing positive for this mutation. M269>P312>MSRY2627. - 08
      > > > R1b-M222 Deep Ancestry - Decendant of L21 above. NW Irish origin. DYS 439 = 11, DYS459 = 8-9, DYS464 = 13-13-15-17, DYS456 = 15, DYS463 = 23.Latest information on (M222+). -
      > > > R1b-P66 Deep Ancestry - Rare Italian origin -
      > > > R1b-U106 or S21 Deep Ancestry - Frisian origin. After the last Ice Age this group set out from the Eastern Refugium; North of the Black Sea and settled the eastern shores of the area known as Doggerland (which submerged in the North Sea about 6.5K years ago) as well as the southern shores of the Baltic. Thick grasses and open plain made this area attractive to wildlife. It is from this location that this group expanded. 13 at marker 492 is an identifying marker. Latest information on R1b1c9 (S21+). This test is now available at FTDNA and at Ethnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. M269>U106 or S21. - 05
      > > >
      > > > DF27 appears to be most prevalent as I have identified from returned kit results and deduction. As I had mentioned on a previous post under R1b origins there is a new marker that looks Iberian based on the few results back from testing and it is DF81. It is important to study other fields related to population genetics to be able to come to conclusions regarding the movement of ancestral lines. These are additional evidence for conclusions.
      > > >
      > > > Saludos,
      > > > Gary
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ________________________________
      > > > From: "mexr1b@" <armandor1b@>
      > > > To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:36 PM
      > > > Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b Origins
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > > Gary,
      > > >
      > > > Since most of the R1b in the project would test positive for DF27 have you urged them to test for that SNP? Are there certain STRs that would point to someone being DF27 as opposed to one of the sibling clades or even U106?
      > > >
      > > > When was DF27 first identified as being the most common for Mexican R1b? Who made the discovery?
      > > >
      > > > --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, "garyf@" <garyf@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > About half of our YDNA results are R1b. R1b-P312 was the group that recolonized Europe from the Franco Iberian refugium after the Ice Age. Here is a recent tree:
      > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-P312_Descendency_Tree.jpg
      > > > >
      > > > > Most of the R1b in our project would test R1b-DF27 positive. Populations first settling a new area far from the previous settlement have an advantage as their genetic variants (SNP's markers etc) do not have to compete with the previous population and have a better chance of survival. Archaeology show us that the majority of these migrations of these early re-colonizers went straight to the area of the North Sea (ancient area known as doggerland) and it is here that there was a second expansion.
      > > > > One branch settled an area of Switzerland which did not expand as much. These movements were a consequence of extreme climate changes.
      > > > >
      > > > > A movement of R1b-U106 appears to have come from Eastern Europe around the area of the Black Sea (North part of the lake at the time). We currently have only 5 that are positive for this marker.
      > > > > R1b-U106, Deep Ancestry - Frisian origin. After the last Ice Age this group set out from the Eastern Refugium; North of the Black Sea and settled the eastern shores of the area known as Doggerland (which submerged in the North Sea about 6.5K years ago) as well as the southern shores of the Baltic. Thick grasses and open plain made this area attractive to wildlife. It is from this location that this group expanded. 13 at marker 492 is an identifying marker. Latest information on R1b1c9 (S21+). This test is now available at FTDNA and at Ethnoancestry - R1b FT Upgrade. M269>U106 or S21.
      > > > >
      > > > > Happy 4th,
      > > > > Gary
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
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