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Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: Echota Cherokee Tribe

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  • JOEL SR
    Hola Jaime:   I, Tsoqualii, am an enrolled, Tsalagi yvwiyahi, Cherokee Indian.    I am a member of the Board for the Florida Governor s Council on Indian
    Message 1 of 78 , Jul 16, 2013
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      Hola Jaime:
       
      I, Tsoqualii, am an enrolled, Tsalagi yvwiyahi, Cherokee Indian. 
       
      I am a member of the Board for the Florida Governor's Council on Indian Affairs. I represent the two tribes of Florida: Miccosukee Tribe and the Seminole Tribe.
       
      I am a combat veteran of Vietnam. All tribes use the concept of combat for all males to become men/warriors. No male is a man only getting older as say age 18-21 unless you earn your manhood.
       
      I was a board member for the Vietnam Era Veterans Inter-Tribal Association. A warrior society that represented all tribes in North America, Canada, Mexico and South America. Any Indian who was a combat veteran for the US military in Vietnam was eligible to be enrolled.
       
      Indian tribes prior to the European invasion are not the same today. There were tribes the controlled large territories as the Cherokee did in the eastern section of North America and small tribes that were taken into larger tribes. 
       
      There was no "documentation" used by all tribes prior to the European invasion and the conquest of the US government over the tribes in North America.
       
      Most of the tribes took slaves/prisoners. Also, tribes adopted individuals , families and whole tribes.
       
      Only with the conquest of the European nations came a paper trail of documentation as birth records, death records, "Christian surnames" and a formal surname John Doe Smith vs uwahali, eagle. Indian names change throughout ones life based on living. An Indian could have as many wives as he could feed and live with.
       
      The Church, Catholic, and the English were the major paper creators as for marriage certificates, birth records etc..
       
      The European countries fought over North and South America and used the Indian tribes as allies. Treaties were created by all the European countries with tribes. These treaties names the tribes and individuals. 
       
      After the US eliminated all European countries and Mexico the federal government used treaties and rolls to list the names of the tribe and or band with tribal members. Documentation.
       
      However, there was no biological/scientific proof that those who were listed on the rolls as the Henderson, Dawes, Baker etc. were actually Indian and what there DIB, degree of Indian blood was.
       
      The mixing Y and mt DNA had over 300 years of mixing with the Europeans and other tribes that heretofore never lived near each other or were there main enemy prior to being forced to live near each other by the US government.
       
      The US government created enrollments laws, guidelines and the use of European names as was done also with Black slaves for documentation as to prove who you were.
       
      The BIA and land management stole the Indian land and used all the resources in the land as timber, oil, coal, gold etc., but did not pay the tribe or individual Indians until taken to federal court.
       
      The Dawes rolls were used after creating the state of Oklahoma. Indians were listed as to the DIB, degree of Indian blood, as 4/4 full blood to less by the BIA. There is a chart the BIA uses for the DIB.
       
      The major problem with the DIB by the BIA was there was no biological/scientific means at that time to prove who was a full blood and who was actually an Indian.
       
      There are two biological means to prove who you are genotypically and phenotypically, 1897 scientific terms, but no accurately provable.
       
      Genes who you are internally and the phenotype who you look like externally. The Indian nickel.
       
      Now I have provided the fundamental for the use or lack of use for DNA for tribal enrollment.
       
      The ancient origins of DNA note A,B, C, etc. for Indians and others relate to European origins as heplagroups H.
       
      If the use of Y/mt DNA was used today tribal members mainly eastern would be mostly European in DNA due to intermixing with the European. 
       
      The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and the Seminole tribe use DNA to determine all new born to allow enrollment.
       
      I do not want to use the Y/mt DNA because we know where we are now. A mixed Indian group with no proof of any full bloods. One pnenotype does not make one an Indian. It is the total culture with language and clan, family etc. that makes one Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, Choctaw etc.
       
      However, the Family finder, autosomal 22 chromosomes, does prove who your family is from father/mother, brother/sister, niece/nephew, uncle and 1ST. through 5TH. cousins. It proves who is family.
       
      A tribe is family. Not like the USA. That is a country with many different members. A tribe is family with different clans, but all are still family.
       
      I am working to prove to my tribe, Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama that a family finder, autosomal 22 chromosomes, is a better means to prove who is actually family for tribal enrollment.
       
      I am not proving anyone to be an Indian. I am proving that as an enrolled tribal member my DNA matches others who are actually my family and this is more accurate than a birth certificate, death certificate and genealogical chart that can not prove these individuals are genetically related to me. 
       
      There are no federal rolls that can prove anyone to be an Indian or Cherokee biologically. My mother's death certificate indicates she was a Cherokee Indian. Little Terrapin was on the 1835 Henderson Rolls. Not proof of DIB. I am listed on my tribal rolls as 1/2 DIB. I have no biological proof of it.
       
      I do have DNA proof of matching with Mexican Indians Flores and Caballero. These Mexican Indians are family to me by genetic biological scientific proof.
       
      Anyone in the Mexico DNA project with Family Finder by Family tree DNA can check if we are family.
       
      These individual's should be eligible for enrollment into my tribe since they are family. 
       
      I will work to have the autosomal 22 chromosomes for family be added to how enrollment of new tribal members and be done like the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and the Seminole Tribe of Florida are current doing for new born infants. 
       
      Jaime I lived with a Hernandez family in Toluca, Mexico in 1967 after returning from Vietnam. The mother was from Spain. She had blond hair and blue eyes. The family was split from light to very dark. The father was a Mexican Indian. 
                 
       
      Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
      From: "sangerjaime@..." <sangerjaime@...>
      To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:35 AM
      Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: Echota Cherokee Tribe
       
      To all whom it may concern,

      My understanding is that Mexican Native American DNA cannot be used to gain American Indian tribal enrollment, and that is understandable.  Even if ones Mexican DNA has proven North American Indigenous DNA , that is insufficient or is not recognized.  You have to show American tribal enrollment cards/records of your parents or grandparents, that would prove you have at least 25% Native American ancestry.  I have also read that each American tribes enrollment procedures are different, some very liberal and some very strict.  However, none use sole DNA evidence to gain admission, that I know of.

      Jaime R. Hernandez



      -----Original Message----- From: JOEL SR <hrjoel3@...> To: MexicoDNAProject <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 7:58 am Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: Echota Cherokee Tribe
       
      Siyo Marie:
       
      Did you have your DNA checked by Family Tree DNA? If yes; what did you have done?
       
      I want to add the DNA use to tribal enrollment procedures. 
       
      The DNA, Family Finder, would add all the individuals that match up as relatives and objectively prove who one is related to.
       
      Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
      From: earthchild_marie <earthchild_marie@...>
      To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:42 PM
      Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: Family Tree DNA--Indians from Mexico
       
      --- In mailto:MexicoDNAProject%40yahoogroups.com, "Wonder Grannie" <osalinas3@...> wrote: > > > > --- In mailto:MexicoDNAProject%40yahoogroups.com, Earthchild Marie <earthchild_marie@> wrote: > > > > Hello, I am part Cherokee and do lots of genealogy on Mexican Indians.  I have emailed you.  Marie Brito of Spokane WA > > > Hi, I don't even know where to start All I really know is my mom's family were very close, intermarrying among cousins often. They came from Agualeguas, Mier, Parras, and Cadayeta. Those are all small towns in a cluster in Northeastern Mexico. But these families were not part of the colony founders the way my father's families were. And they had to work to finally save enough money to buy a farm unlike my dad's families which got Spanish land grants. The very earliest female name I have is named Pascuala without a last name. I think that may be an indication that she was Indian. But I can't find my Franco relatives even in the Mexican Census reports. Everything I've learned has been from Mexican Parish Church Baptismal, Death, and Marriage records that ancestry.com has. It did find them in the US Census Records. > Thanks for your e=mail. Orfa > Orfa, if your ancestor had no surname, yes she was Indian. I have not done research in the states you mention, altho I may have had some Brito people there. Sorry. Marie
    • Teddi Montes
      I just want to learn more about these guys. Teddi
      Message 78 of 78 , Jan 24, 2014
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        I just want to learn more about these guys.

        Teddi


        On Jan 24, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Gary Felix wrote:

         

        Teddi,
        if you are looking for his more recent relatives increasing markers will help. If you are looking for a breakthrough on Native American ancestry, SNP testing should eventually be done. Testing additional STRs out to 37 markers would be a good first step either way. 

        Gary


        From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
        To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 1:04 PM
        Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Y haplo N

         
        So when I get the money, should I upgrade to 37 for this man?

        Teddi


        On Jan 24, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Gary Felix wrote:

         

        Hi Teddi,
        Y dna haplogroup N is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia and is so old it has spread counterclockwise into Scandinavia and is found sparely distributed through Europe but mostly in the north. The hotspot in Europe is among the Sammi of Finland. Their culture is similar to the plains Native Americans. If you look closely at the FTDNA Y haplogroup frequency pie maps on your FTDNA pages you can see by scrolling over the map of North America a small percentage of Y haplogroup N with the majority being haplogroup Q and C to a lessor extent. 

        I believe last time I looked that the Y haplogroup N in our project have affinity to Europe when you add more markers. Would be a breakthrough to find matches only in the Americas and Siberia with additional merkers tested.

        Saludos,
        Gary 

         


        From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
        To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 12:04 AM
        Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Y haplo N

         
        More correctly....N-M231

        Teddi


        On Jan 23, 2014, at 10:50 PM, Teddi Montes wrote:

         
        Ok...so I just returned from a 6+ week 500 mile muletrip gathering DNA
        in Mexico, concentrating on certain very old fam! ilies in Baja
        California, descendants of soldiers and mission workers pre-1800.

        So one very old vaquero I found sitting in the morning sun, surname
        Aguiar, on a dusty road in a 300 yr old mission-era village in
        southern Baja just came back with his Y 12 haplo as N!!!! Yes, N!!!!

        What surprises I am finding!!

        I am headed back early Feb. to continue the trip for the last 400
        miles of Baja California.

        Teddi Montes
        The Californio DNA Project










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