864Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge
- Nov 20 8:37 AM<But I haven't been saying it is just the dispersal pattern. I have provided Archeological , Climate change, Cultural, geographical and genetic evidence.>
You have not provided proof that the people involved in the archaeological finds, climate change, cultures, and geography were part of the R1b haplogroup in any of the instances older than 5,000 bp. You only proved that there were people there. Until it can be proven that those people were R1b it has no bearing on the subject.
<We are talking about very ancient cultures when they were quite isolated from everyone during the times when there were relatively few people on the planet, not recent cultures who benifited by horses and boats for movement around the planet.>
I agree that there were very few people on the planet. However, they weren't that isolated because the autosomal DNA of the Mesolothic remains of people from Gotland, Sweden and the La Braña Cave were very similar. These are points far from each other but very similar people. The Neolithic remains of Oetzi and Gok4 has similar aDNA to each other but they were also found in points far from each other. The Mesolithic aDNA is different fom the Neolithic aDNA.
Therefore, even in the Mesolithic there was plenty of travel and that has continued throughout history. There are other pieces of evidence that show for multiple waves of migration from east to west. Farming, dairy farming, different types of pottery, Copper Age items, Bronze Age items, changes in Y-DNA and mtDNA.
There is no proof that R1b people did not have boats. R1b seems to have multiplied at a high rate about 4,000 years ago which is after the arrival of the Neolithic farmers arrived. The R1b people would have had metallurgy and boats 4,000-3,000 years ago to help them multiply and travel at a faster rate than the non-R1b haplogroups in Iberia. They easily could have used small boats to navigate rivers and coastlines. Once they obtained chariots their spread and dominance would have grown. Also, areas where PIE languages exist they are high in R1b and R1a regions. Maps of the two overlap nicely. Metallurgy and Indo-European languages spread from the east to the west as did the R1b haplogroups. The topics of R1 haplogroups, metallurgy, and Indo-European languages are written about in Ancestral Journeys by Jean Manco. They were also were written about by Dienekes back in August 2012. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/proto-indo-european-homeland-in.html
< These studies were looking for the remains of farmers. The Mesolithic buried their dead on the open plain and in shallow graves. It should be self evident that one R-P312 man's Ydna would not survive in a population of I2 and G2 farmers.>
Dienekes Pontikos pointed out the lack of R1 remains in blogpost I just referenced. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/proto-indo-european-homeland-in.html
Jean Manco, who has been a professor of history at Plymouth and Bristol universities, points out the lack of R1 remains in her Ancestral Journeys book and has a site with a list of all ancient remains that have been tested for DNA.
She believes R1b arrived in western Europe in the Copper Age.
Maciamo Hays of Eupedia has a map showing P312 first appearing somewhere near the Alps and mentions the lack of ancient R1b remains on his site. http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg
In a recent conference that you might have attended Dr. Michael Hammer of FamilyTreeDNA said "he thought that if P311 is so frequent and widespread in Europe it must have been there a long time. However, it appears that he and most everyone else, was wrong. The hypothesis to be tested is if P311 originated prior to the Neolithic wave, it would predict higher diversity it the near east, closer to the origins of agriculture. If P311 originated after the expansion, would be able to see it migrate across Europe and it would have had to replace an existing population."
"Because we now have sequences the DNA of about 40 ancient DNA specimens, Michael turned to the ancient DNA literature....This evidence supports a recent spread of haplogroup R lineages in western Europe about 5K years ago. This also supports evidence that P311 moved into Europe after the Neolithic agricultural transition and nearly displaced the previously existing western European Neolithic Y, which appears to be G2a."
Dr. Michael Hammer of FamilyTreeDNA put up a map similar to that of the map by Maciamo Hays.
If the lack of R1b remains stands out as being important to these people I take it as being important myself. They surely feel, that until evidence of R1b haplogroups in western Europe prior to 5,000 year ago, the available data goes against the Franco-Cantabrian refugium theory.
< Tell us how one R-P312 Ydna man comes to dominate the Ydna that had been there for thousands of years since you are talking about large populations when you speak of technology, startegies, trade, diseases, religion etc.? The concept here is that one man's dna is better than anothers and this is hard to believe unless you are saying disease. >
No, I never wrote that one man's DNA is better than others'. You have misinterpreted what I wrote. I am stating that a person with certain DNA happened to have things at his disposal that allowed him to have an advantage. I explained two advantages above metallurgy and boats. An example, Spaniards did not have better DNA but they were able to defeat the Aztecs, even before disease devastated them, because they had advantages. There were similar circumstances with R1b overtaking G2a, G2a3, I2a, F, and E1bibi.
<Just to clarify for everyone the Franco Iberian R1b thoery was proposed by the mentor of Spencer Wells and the foremost Human Population geneticist of our time Luigi Cavalli Sforza. He proposed this many years ago.
This is the prevailing theory:
Locations of haplogroup R1b circa 500 years ago, before the era of intercontinental travel.>
I am sure Dr. Michael Hammer has had conversations with Spencer Wells and even so Dr. Michael Hammer no longer agrees with the Franco Iberian R1b theory proposed by Luigi Cavalli Sforza. I doesn't seem that it will be the prevailing theory for long.
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