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490Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge

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    Aug 15, 2013
      For fun.
      Man learned quickly in BC that he was on the eating list as well as hunting to eat. Prior to domesticating the "dog" the game was a small war with primitive weapons. Once the game had been killed. Who do you think ate the most and best parts of the game? Then after a full gut what did man do? Mate?  Our R1b1a2? 
      The Cherokee in NC, TN etc. would dig holes and hang large logs and bate in the hole to kill and capture bears. The bear would trip line and the large log to slam it which could kill a small bear and wound a large bear.
      The Viet Cong used similar traps and pongee sticks. A trip line would release a large log with spikes to hit our troops. It was real nasty. Holes held pongee sticks ripped ones legs if one pulled there leg up to quickly. 
      However, mating was a male dominant role to take what you wanted by force. How romantic do you think mating was in BC? What level of hygiene do you think man practiced in BC?     
      Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
      From: Gary Felix <garyf@...>
      To: "MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 1:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge
      Hi Joel,
      I read a research paper that said we selected for stamina unlike the most monkeys who developed large sharp teeth for fighting.  We work and hunt as a team and with stamina can follow prey and bring back food as we did for most of human history. 
      As always there seems to be an exception which is the Bonobo which separated from chimps early on both geographicly an genetically as they are the opposite. A kind and gentle animal.
      From: JOEL SR <hrjoel3@...>
      To: "MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 6:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge
      I had a course on anthropology as a junior in college. The text book explained how a 4" human bone was used to describe the females total body as height, weight etc.
      Mating is a male dominant activity in the animal and man world. The R1b1a2 male mated better and produced more off springs. I do not think the social customs then are anyway like ours today for a female and male relationship. If you were unable to defend for your food and female you would loose them to the strongest male. The male that was most fit physically in power took what he wanted and killed the weakest males to take it. Human needs are simple; air, water, food and the pleasure and fun and avoid death/fear.
      Empathy and consciousness for others needs came many years later in mans emolument. I still think mans has a long way to evolve still as I recall my tour of duty in Vietnam. Check the DNA in Cu Chi, Tay Ninh now? 
      Corn crop was vital for the Cherokee diet. After the corn had been planted and started growing on a full moon all the virgins would make a dance around the corn field with any clothes. I do not thin it help the corn grow, but made the tribal population increase.  
      Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
      From: "mexr1b@..." <armandor1b@...>
      To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 7:34 PM
      Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge
      Hi Gary,
      <Yes, the same culture existed in those area some 30,000 years ago. That has nothing to do with anything I have stated. There was a founder <effect of an SNP somewhere close to N. Iberia/S. France but which SNP it was and when it happened is yet to be determined.
      The purpose of addressing that the population in N. Iberia and the Middle East is to show continuity to the Ice Age. R1b1 appears in Camaroon in Africa. This appearance was made before the Sahara dried up about 7K years ago and Yes R1b came from the East as I said Wells' video shows the migration from Central Asia…So we have a concrete migration pattern which is the same as the dispersal of R-P312 and Mtdna H1 & H3 the most frequent mtdna haplogroups in Europe. 
      Just because it is the same dispersal pattern it does not prove it was by people that were part of the R1b haplogroup. So far the most ancient remains that tested positive for R1b DNA found in Europe is in Germany from 2600–2500 BC. Most of the DNA acquired from ancient remains found in Europe tested positive for I2 and G2. What's lacking are ancient remains from Iberia around that date and prior to it. Separately, cultures, languages, and DNA can change independently of each other. Examples are Vikings went to Normandy and adopted French as their language. The Visigoths adopted many aspects of the culture of the Romans. This is why I don't use farming or any other definable culture as evidence of R1b dispersal. Cultures or practices don't prove or disprove a haplogroup. Did a specific culture have a majority R1b DNA? Yes, but which one we don't know yet. 
      <I don't use farming as an argument for or against the origin of R1b subclades.

      If you don't use farming or founder effect with an Lactose Persistence advantage then how do you support a theory that R1b came recently from the East or North of Iberia?
      If R1b came from the North or East then they would have had to replace the existing Western European population who had been present for many thousands of years. 
      First of all, I am not suggesting Iberians or Europeans were completely replaced by R1b. I am postulating that R1b became the most populous haplogroup. Why do you think it was not possible for them to become the most populous western European population? R1b could have had advantages over the other haplogroups. It could have been a combination of populations, knowledge, technology, strategies, trade, diseases, religion, and so on that allowed R1b peoples to come to dominate the earlier populations. They could have been farmers, but better farmers. They could have also had Lactose Persistence.
      <However there is some other very important information in that article.
      <"Our estimate of 8870±1708 years BP, based on 757 M412 chromosomes, suggests that the M412 lineage evolved in Europe soon after the <arrival of a L23* ancestor.
       They are saying L23, the descendant of M269, arrived in Europe and they imply it arrived from the East, not <Iberia/France.
      Per Spencer Wells R1b came from Central Asia so there is no disagreement and if these estimates were accurate then we wouldn't be having this conversation. 
      I said:The paper says R1b has founder effect in Western Europe with the implication being that Western R1b was born there.
       Yes, I am learning that the disagreement is over when the migration happened. More on the estimates in the following responses.
      <S116/P312 has a higher frequency in Western Europe but that does not prove it's origin is Iberia. It is likely east or north-east of there. <Again, frequency does not prove origin. They study shows that R1b started in Anatolia. See figure 3.

      This is why I said the same culture was in the Middle East as in Iberia 30K years ago. 
      There is no proof that the culture that was in Iberia 30,000 years ago was practiced by people that were R1b. Once that proof exists the disagreement will end.
       >The following study shows that age estimates based on STRs can't be used.  They refer to both of the previous studies and they state M269 <is even younger than previous estimates.

      Concerning STR based estimates I have agreed to this for many years now on Rootsweb DNA before this article came out in fact. These false STR estimates were the genesis of the Farmers brought R1b to Europe theory. Concerning younger that previous estimates, I believe you are misreading what this paper says: 
      "For now, we can offer no date as to the age of R-M269 or R-S127, but believe that our STR analyses suggest the recent age estimates of R-M269 [20] and R-S116 [21] are likely to be younger than the true values..."
      This means the opposite in that recent age estimates are younger than the true values.
      Yes, I did misread that. However, SNP estimates are pointing to P312 to being between 4,800 and 6,200 years old per Tim Janzen and Terry Robb.
      Are you in agreement or disagreement with those age estimates for P312?
      ISOGG and Richard Rocca are citizen scientist like ourselves. A member of ISOGG was responsible for the R1b haplogroup on that site and he believed that R1b came over with the farmers and this has since been discredited by papers like the ones you brought to this thread. 
      Just because R1b didn't come over with farmers doesn't mean it was in Europe prior to farming. You are asserting that the people in Europe prior to farming were R1b. I am postulating they weren't and we are still learning when the exact timing of the migration took place.

      I credit Richard Rocca with bring new SNP's to FTDNA but he did not discover them as they came out of the 1000 Genomes project. Keep in mind that undifferentiated R1b is getting smaller as a new SNP under P312 was announced yesterday. 
      According to the study at http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041634 Richard Rocca et al says he and his colleagues discovered the SNPs using the methodology mentioned in the study.
      "The authors have used an online community approach, and tools that were readily available via the Internet, to discover genealogically and therefore phylogenetically relevant Y-chromosome polymorphisms within core haplogroup R1b1a2-L11/S127 (rs9786076)" If that is incorrect is should be republished with a corrected wording.
      If not, that is enough to allow his previous statement and the following as a possibility. Here is his latest statement on the out of Iberia theory

      Not that I think P312 originated in Iberia, because I don't…"
      Yes, it is great that the differentiated R1b is growing. Once there is a significant number of those subclades we might be able to see a pattern.
      <No, SNPs don't just happen anywhere. R1b made it's way over from the east creating subclades along the way. R-P312 likely <originated east or north-east of Iberia. 
      Where is the cline to show this?
      All references to clines that I can find are based on frequencies. I don't agree that frequency equates to origin. Frequency shows the location that provided the best environment for a subclade to prosper, nothing else. It is the low amount of P312* in Iberia that shows that R-P312 originated in .

      I said:How do you associate a haplogroup with a language?
      <I did the opposite. I dissociated a haplogroup with a language. I dissociated the Basque language with the R1b group that joined the <Basque and became their dominant Y haplogroup. 

      I don't understand this.
      I am hypothesizing that there was a group of people that weren't R1b that spoke the Basque language that absorbed men that were R1b but didn't speak Basque. I am also saying that I don't know which language the R1b people spoke but it wasn't Basque. In this scenario I don't associate a haplogroup with a specific language, nor would I.
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