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461Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge

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  • Gary Felix
    Aug 11, 2013
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      Hello Armando,
      <Even though R1b has it's highest frequency in Western Europe the origin is in Eurasia or close to it. Therefore, frequency can be ???<misleading and it actually was misleading. Many people thought that R1b started in Iberia when that actually was not the case. 
      Archaeology shows the same culture in the Middle East as in Western Europe some 30000 years ago. There were two refugiums where people survived for 10K years and then spread out. On in N. Iberia/S. France and the other N. of the Black Sea. The continuity of population spread is 10K years of isolation in So. Europe. It appears from R-U106 distribution that this group came out of the Eastern Refuge just N. of the Black Sea.

      http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html
      The above study says that R1b was in Western Europe prior to Farming without the benefit of R1b subclades.

      The paper argues against the Farmers bringing R1b to Europe here:
      "Our results implicate complexity in the post-glacial formation and expansion of populations in Europe during the past ca 10000 years. The narrow temporal window between potential expansions by Mesolithic foragers at the onset of the Holocene (10k years ago) and pioneer farmers from the Near East during the early Neolithic into Central Europe (7.5k years ago) is exceedingly difficult to discern with genetic tools.22 Thus, invoking the pronounced transformation of the pre-Neolithic European gene pool by intrusive pioneer farmers from the Near East must be viewed cautiously especially when such an argument is based on just a single incompletely resolved haplogroup."

      The paper says R1b has founder effect in Western Europe with the implication being that Western R1b was born there.

      <http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021592
      This paper says:
      An interpretation of our results is as support for the use of the correction proposed by Zhivotovsky et al [28][29] in wave-of-advance models. Historical events consistent with recent expansions from the south of Europe during the Bronze age [19] or the Greek and Roman civilization in Europe and West Asia [35] cannot be excluded, but the impact of such demographic events on European genomes requires confirmation from ancient DNA studies"
      Zhivotovsky support the evolution mutation rate which finds populations are about 3 times older that the germline rate and in the next sentence they don't support a recent migration.

      <Distribution is what I was using and what seems to me to be the best indicator. Since DF27 is found in such a wide range of Europe <the origin could be close to the center or even on the edge. Even as we go further down the phylogenetic tree the distribution of the <descendants of DF27 is still widespread in Western Europe.

      DF27 is found in a wide range of Europe because people started expanding out of the Western Refuge 10K years ago. But you will find DF27 to be concentrated in the area of the Western Refugium.

      <A post in a forum states that terminal P312 people have not been found in Spain. If that really is the case then DF27 made it's way <into Spain after the emergence of DF27 since P312 is it's parent. 

      Who is this forum poster and what is this forum posters source?

      <All of this tells me that the origin of P312 is not where the highest frequency exists but rather somewhere outside of it but <suppressed by competition with other R1b subclades such as L11 and U106. It seems to have flourished in France and Spain just as 
      <it's subclades did.

      L11 is very rare and U106 runs at about 25 percent of P312 is is concentrated East of the North Sea. R-P312 is more abundant and expands greater in the West of Europe because it was already closer to the N. Sea and like Myers says in your first link there is founder effect. 
      Like I mentioned SNP's don't just happen anywhere and I don't know where you think R-P312 originated but perhaps you can advance a theory?

      <Now since M153 is a descendant of P312, DF27, and Z196 then the paternal lines of the Basque is from a group that hasn't been <associated with the Basque language. So far P312, DF27, and Z196 have been associated with the Indo-European language families <of Italo-Celtic-Germanic. Therefore, it seems that the language was from a group that was not R1b but they adopted the language.

      How do you associate a haplogroup with a language? 

      <Granted, I could be wrong and no one at this moment can say for certain where the origin is. Even Richard Rocca and Mike Walsh <won't say the origin of DF27 was definitely in a specific location. They still say they don't know for sure where it was. If we can't be <certain of DF27 how can we be certain of the origin of the subclades beneath it. Even the experts were wrong about the origin of <R1b.

      It is possible to deduce and origin. 

      Saludos,
      Gary 


      From: "mexr1b@..." <armandor1b@...>
      To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:32 PM
      Subject: [MexicoDNAProject] Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge

       
      Even though R1b has it's highest frequency in Western Europe the origin is in Eurasia or close to it. Therefore, frequency can be misleading and it actually was misleading. Many people thought that R1b started in Iberia when that actually was not the case.

      http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html
      http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021592

      Distribution is what I was using and what seems to me to be the best indicator. Since DF27 is found in such a wide range of Europe the origin could be close to the center or even on the edge. Even as we go further down the phylogenetic tree the distribution of the descendants of DF27 is still widespread in Western Europe.

      A post in a forum states that terminal P312 people have not been found in Spain. If that really is the case then DF27 made it's way into Spain after the emergence of DF27 since P312 is it's parent.

      All of this tells me that the origin of P312 is not where the highest frequency exists but rather somewhere outside of it but suppressed by competition with other R1b subclades such as L11 and U106. It seems to have flourished in France and Spain just as it's subclades did.

      Now since M153 is a descendant of P312, DF27, and Z196 then the paternal lines of the Basque is from a group that hasn't been associated with the Basque language. So far P312, DF27, and Z196 have been associated with the Indo-European language families of Italo-Celtic-Germanic. Therefore, it seems that the language was from a group that was not R1b but they adopted the language.

      Granted, I could be wrong and no one at this moment can say for certain where the origin is. Even Richard Rocca and Mike Walsh won't say the origin of DF27 was definitely in a specific location. They still say they don't know for sure where it was. If we can't be certain of DF27 how can we be certain of the origin of the subclades beneath it. Even the experts were wrong about the origin of R1b.

      The following threads make for very interesting reading about the origins of P312 and DF27.

      http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand

      http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10917.0

      http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1170-who-was-Mr-L11-or-Mr-P312





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