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459Re: R1b and the franco-cantabrian refuge

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  • mexr1b@att.net
    Aug 10 2:32 PM
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      Even though R1b has it's highest frequency in Western Europe the origin is in Eurasia or close to it. Therefore, frequency can be misleading and it actually was misleading. Many people thought that R1b started in Iberia when that actually was not the case.

      http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html
      http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021592

      Distribution is what I was using and what seems to me to be the best indicator. Since DF27 is found in such a wide range of Europe the origin could be close to the center or even on the edge. Even as we go further down the phylogenetic tree the distribution of the descendants of DF27 is still widespread in Western Europe.

      A post in a forum states that terminal P312 people have not been found in Spain. If that really is the case then DF27 made it's way into Spain after the emergence of DF27 since P312 is it's parent.

      All of this tells me that the origin of P312 is not where the highest frequency exists but rather somewhere outside of it but suppressed by competition with other R1b subclades such as L11 and U106. It seems to have flourished in France and Spain just as it's subclades did.

      Now since M153 is a descendant of P312, DF27, and Z196 then the paternal lines of the Basque is from a group that hasn't been associated with the Basque language. So far P312, DF27, and Z196 have been associated with the Indo-European language families of Italo-Celtic-Germanic. Therefore, it seems that the language was from a group that was not R1b but they adopted the language.

      Granted, I could be wrong and no one at this moment can say for certain where the origin is. Even Richard Rocca and Mike Walsh won't say the origin of DF27 was definitely in a specific location. They still say they don't know for sure where it was. If we can't be certain of DF27 how can we be certain of the origin of the subclades beneath it. Even the experts were wrong about the origin of R1b.

      The following threads make for very interesting reading about the origins of P312 and DF27.

      http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand

      http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10917.0

      http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1170-who-was-Mr-L11-or-Mr-P312

      --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, "garyf@..." <garyf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Armando,
      > distribution, frequency and the phylotree are everything due to the low survival rate of haploids (Ydna and Mtdna). This is how Spencer Wells traced the path of y lines out of Africa.
      >
      > R-M153 has its highest frequency in the Basque Country reaching as high as 14 percent in one location.
      >
      > Markers have to establish themselves early to gain a numerical advantage and thus survive for long periods and into the present.
      >
      > Some things needed for any Y marker to survive is small population, fairly isolated and a great expansion. All these things offer the marker an advantage over other markers in the area. Selection is another possibility but is hard to prove when it comes to Europe since the time between is so relatively short.
      >
      > Gary
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com, "mexr1b@" <armandor1b@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Z196 also shows up in Poland and Ukraine.
      > >
      > > The Semargl maps make things a bit easier. I believe that apart from FTDNA they use 1,000 Genomes as their source data.
      > >
      > > http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/406/
      > >
      > >
      > > Z220 also shows up in Poland and Finland.
      > >
      > > http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1266/
      > >
      > > Even the supposed "Basque marker" M153 isn't really exclusive to the the Basque. It has been found in Asturias, León, and Galicia. It has even been found as far away as Norway. This means it is possible that M153 started somewhere in central Europe and simply flourished in northern Spain including the Basque Country.
      > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10169.msg125276#msg125276
      > >
      > >
      > > What still stands out the most to me is that DF27+ is the main R1b group for Iberia but it also exists all over Europe.
      > > http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1378/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
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