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1244Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Tatar

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    May 21, 2014


      I sent an email to Ms. Bailey with the gedmatch for Native Americans.
      I think she is the administrative coordinator for NAs.
      Copy of my email

      I sent an email to Connie Mulligan, Geneticist, University of Florida, who had made comments about the Mal'ta male child having Eurasian Y/mt R/U. but no comments on the chromosomes alleles for the child that matches with the Karitiana Tribe which no admixture from European. Total isolation in the jungles of Brazil.

      I have matches with individuals with Q and A,B,C,D, and X, but no matches for MA-1, Anzick-1 and the Karitiana tribe.

      Then I have a match with Francis, chromosome 3 with a 8.3 CMS and a MRCA for 7th. generation and who, F311426, is C1c1b, does not match with MA-1, but has matches with Anzick-1 and Karitiana.

      I have sent the person an email. I can not determine the gender? 

      Do you match with Mayan, Pima and Karitiana as well as the MA-1 and the Anzick-1?
      What do you know about the East and West Greenlanders?   
      Take care.
      To gedmatchnativeproject@...
      May 20 at 10:08 PM
      Dear Ms. Bailey:

      I am an enrolled member of the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama.

      I and other members of the tribe are participating with Dr. Eske Willerslev DNA research.

      Will you sue Dr. research as you now use the MA-1 and the Anzick-1?

      DNA from the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama?

      My DNA matches Anzick-1, MA-1, Mayan, Pima, Karitiana, Tatar, NA Dene, North Amerindian, East and West Greenlander.

      There no members of the five civilized tribes in the gene pool; Chickasaw, Choctaw, Cherokee, Creek and Seminole. 

      How many federal and state recognized tribal members are in the gene pool gedmatch?

      What are the names of the federal and state recognized tribes in the gene pool? 

      How may we work together?

      Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
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          Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
          On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM, "Gary Felix garyf@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Joel K,
          can't seem to login to gedmatch at the moment. I noticed the site is not always available or after you login you get errors.


          From: "JOEL SR hrjoel3@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com>To: "MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 7:30 AMSubject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Tatar


          Would you provide a list of the tribes you match with in California.

          Also, Dahlia here is the email address for Rich Amador Flores, my cousin,

          Rich knows the tribe he is related with. I forgot the name of the tribe.

          Do you have a kit number with gedmatch.com?

          If you do give me your kit number and I will check if we match one on one.
          Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
          On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 9:36 a.m., "Dahlia Palacios dahlpalaci@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Thanks Gary
          Dahlia Guajardo-Cantu of Palacios
          On Saturday, May 17, 2014 11:45 AM, "Gary Felix garyf@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Hi Dahlia,
          you can submit your husbands DNA to gedmatch. They seem to be doing a good job getting tribal samples. I was showing NA from the Californias and it was showing up on Happaworld which seems to have more samples from this area, and now I match someone from these tribes.


          From: "Dahlia Palacios dahlpalaci@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> To: "MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:33 AM Subject : Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Tatar

          Hi Joel and Gary,
          I have been doing some reading on your information (emails).
          My husbands maternal line is Flores which I researched back to about 1700 ending with INDIO JOSEPH ANTONIO FLORES out of Monclova.,Coahuila .I was able to obtain the ydna on My husbands last living uncle ,Tomas Flores-Gonzalez, he passed on in 2009. His group is indicated below
          GROUP IS Q1A3A, is there a way that I could determine what Indian group this is? Thanks Dahlia
          Am having a little trouble with my emails as of yestrerday,hope you receive this email. Dahlia

          Dahlia Guajardo-Cantu of Palacios
          On Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:13 AM, "JOEL SR hrjoel3@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Another question. Are these listed in order of relationship?

          Does this indicate a relationship with Anzick-1 is first, then the Mayan, Pima, Karitiana,   North Amerindian, West Greenlander, MA-1, East Greenlander, Chuvash, Tatar, Erzya etc.

          Could this be my Mexican connection? Mayan?

          The Anzick-1 is probably in all Mexicans.

          Richard Amador Flores, my cousin is Q13a, was added to the Echota Cherokee Tribal members for the saliva DNA with Dr. Willeslev because we already have a DNA connection.

          I will send this to Dr. Willerslev for his input.

          What do you think?

          I have a 10:45 appointment. Till later.


          Secondary Population (source) Distance

          Eurogenes EUtest Oracle V2 K15 results:

          Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
          Show message history
          On Monday, May 12, 2014 12:04 PM, "JOEL SR hrjoel3@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Has anyone read the research printed on MA-1.

          David Reich and Eske Willerslev both indicate the research states upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals  dual ancestry of Native Americans.  

          MA-1 had no East Asian DNA.

          MA-1 autosomal evidenced that MA-1 is basal to modern day Western Eurasians from
          Native Americans and the Mal'ta child.

          The MA-1 referenced 51 Indian tribes, but only 7 tribes are in North America.

          Does anyone have Malochi? I have 10%.  Malochi is 33.6 West Asian and 33.8% South Asian. They appear NA and match a lot of the NAs I know and are related with.  

          Biaka Pygmies were one of the least admixture  except for the Japanese, Chinese.
          28.1 and 71.9 Neo African Palaeo African for 100.0%.

          I think there are still small bands of Indians in the Amazon who have never mixed there genes with any outsiders. 

          This is the group that needs to be tested.

          The Karitiana are used as a reference with the MA-1?

          General reading material
          Patterson et al. (2012) recently published evidence for admixture in northern Europeans between a population resembling modern Sardinians (and the Neolithic Tyrolean Iceman, whose genome was published earlier this year), and, surprisingly Native Americans. The authors attribute the Amerindian-like ancestry element to a North Eurasian population that spawned Native Americans, and which also contributed ancestry to northern Europeans. They propose two possibilities for the origin of this admixture: (i) the Mesolithic Europeans resembled Amerindians, or (ii) there was an influx of Amerindian-like populations from the east during late prehistory. A palimpsest of these two processes may explain parts of the observed signal of admixture.
          In their visits to Cherokee towns in the early 1500s, Spanish explorers and Friars who accompanied them witnessed and made note of Blond-Haired Blue-Eyed and Red-Haired Green-Eyed Cherokees in their official records. The Cherokee themselves know that they have been mixing with light skinned people for over 1000 years and pieces of modern Cherokee art like "Genetic Cherokee Sisters" certainly bears this out.. IF there ever was a candidate for a group of Indians who may be descendants of Nephites who survived the last great battle of the Book of Mormon, the Cherokee should be looked at very closely.Tomes have been written, (most notably James Adair's 1775 "History of the American Indians") concerning the possible connection between The Cherokee and the House of Israel. Adair, who spoke fluent English, Hebrew, and Welsh, spent 40 years among the Cherokee and married into the nation, and wrote "23 arguments" comparing Cherokee and Hebrew language, burial customs, mode of dress, etc. and concluded that the two groups were related.There are many notable Adair/Cherokee descendants, including the world-famous humorist William Penn Adair Rogers, AKA "Will" Rogers.

          Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
          On Sunday, May 11, 2014 10:33 AM, "Samuel Dominguez sfdoming@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Randal makes a very good point which is why I have always been uncomfortable with the word "mestizo". It is essentially meaningless. Show me someone who is not a "mestizo".

          Family Dominguez de Mendoza
          On Saturday, May 10, 2014 9:00 PM, "JOEL SR hrjoel3@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Halo Soza:

          I do not think there are any tribes in North America that are so isolated to the degree to eliminate any infiltration from the outside world to prevent mixing of genes outside the tribe.

          There may be a few tribes in South America in the Amazon Forest that could be without outside gene mixing.

          The removal of tribes during the 1835 to 1840's to Indian territory placed tribes within range to promote inter-marring and mixing of genes that would eliminate tribal gene exclusiveness. Now you have Cherokee, Sioux, Osage, Comanche etc. that would never had happened in the 1600 to 1700's. Primary enemies now inter marry and live with each other as a single tribe.

          Now add the infusion of all other ethnic groups as all Europeans. Inter-marrying outside the tribe for 4 to 6 generations will eliminate the genetic ancient "Indian" in North America only.

          However, what was the degree of admixture prior to migrating to North America? 

          the MA-1, Mal'ta male child in Siberia Russia dated 24, 000 had a Y DNA R and mt DNA U. 
          Question is what is the MA-1 autosomal 22 chromosomes?   

          The East coast tribes, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama etc.,  were the initial tribes to intermix with the Europeans. Mostly English, Irish and Scottish had gene mix with the Cherokee. Possibly some Spanish from the conquistadors.
          The Cherokee had a clan that learned the Spanish language as well as the English and French language.

          The Eastern Band of Cherokee has a DIB for 1/16th. from the Baker Rolls for 1924 with some modifications. Problem is no one can prove the DIB of the individual on the rolls or even if the individual was a Cherokee or Indian.

          These rolls were collected by non-Indians federal and state government employees. How could a government employment differentiate between a Creek and Cherokee on sight as an employee much less was the individual a "full blood or a 1/2 bred"? 

          Autosomal can prove family and match with the majority of tribal members. A tribe is family. Clans are closer family. One marries outside of ones clan to prevent inter-marrying in immediate family. Each clan in the tribe has a specific function for the tribe as war, peace, cultural religious ceremonies, agriculture etc..


          Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
          On Saturday, May 10, 2014 7:11 PM, "Randal Soza mrrandalsoza@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          If I had to hazard a guess, I would say there's no such thing as "pure blood" or "pure Native American" or "Cherokee pure" or "Apache pure", or "pure" anyone else for that matter.  First, you'd have to define what constitutes "pure" on a genetic level when trying to determine a certain populace.  The dictionary definition of pure means:

          1 - not mixed or adulterated with any other substance or material.
          2 - without any extraneous and unnecessary elements.

          And when speaking of "pure blood" or "pure bred"

          1 - of unmixed origin or descent.

          So for me, this would mean locating and identifying specific polymorphisms that are inherent to each specific tribe and none other. Then, those samples that included these specific markers could be declared "pure" so to speak, on a populace level.

          Just my two cents on the matter.

          Randal Soza

          Jewish Mexico Arizona Southwest US DNA Project Admin

          On May 10, 2014, at 9:19 AM, "JOEL SR hrjoel3@... [MexicoDNAProject]" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


          If we are to speculate with East Asian as Native American why not do the same with West Asian, Western Eurasian, as Dr. Willerslev had stated that a 1/3rd. of NA today are related to the Mal'ta child, MA-1, have no East Asian DNA, but West Eurasian.

          Also, that the haplogroups for NAs are not exclusive to only NAs, but are found throughout the world. Therefore, the autosomal is the best source for relationships than hgs.

          The research I am participating in with Dr. Willerslev is to match autosomal with MA-1. Mal'ta child, Anzick-1, Montana child and Echota Cherokees of Alabama. There is not current accurate data on DNA from "Indians" in Alabama in a gene pool.

          Presently I do not know of a model sample of DNA that is scientifically proven to identify a North American "Pure Indian" as one can with a pure bred dog, cat, horse or cattle.

          Since we are speculating with a scientific method to measure a limited gene pool with inaccurate tools then our findings will have considerable incurrent out comes. 

          We are a program in progress with a lot to learn as we improve in accuracy.  

          Joel K. Harris, Sr., Ph.D.
          On Friday, May 9, 2014 4:57 AM, "Gary Felix garyf@... [MexicoDNAProject]" < MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Hi Joel K.
          you lose the autosomal DNA of ancestors older than 6 generations. The exception is when you are related to a population with a small effective population size (populations that marry among themselves). Populations that marry among themselves have DNA that is very distinct. These populations are homozygous in that they inherit similar dna from both their parents.  
          If a stranger came to town and married into a population that did not marry among themselves this strangers dna would be lost after about 6 generations or less. 
          On the other hand if several families came to an isolated location and their descendants all married among themselves this populations' dna would all be very similar (also similar to the population they left) and they would all look like they were closely related except they may be many generations apart. 

          From: JOEL SR <hrjoel3@...>To: "MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com" <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 7:29 PMSubject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] "My Origins" Utility from FTDNA


          This individual is a 3rd or 4th cousin via FTDNA
          Not his Y DNA as Q1a3a1 Native American?
          Amerindian  0.31%

          See gedmatch

          Comparison took 0.11876 seconds.

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