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1005Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Carrillos in Baja California

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  • Edward Romero
    Feb 5, 2014
    • 0 Attachment
      To: Jaime Hernandez, According to what I have read, it was both, because almost all of the Priest were Spanish, yes, some were also Irish, French etc. but the vast majority were Spanish. Just like the Catholic Church of today, the Old Catholic Church was just as corrupt. In my Mother's family, there is a female back in the 1700's, she married a Spanish man of some importance, he did not want his wife to be identified as India, so the Priest listed her as Spanish, who knows how much money the Priest and the Church received for this little favor. It's from this female that our Family gets our American Indian features, but she was also very intelligent and that is another trait she passed down to us. My Grandmother on the other side of the family, is one of those ESPANOLAS, she was an extreme racist, she was always ready to advise you that her family NEVER lived in Mexico, they only landed there and immediately headed north and established the City of Santa Fe, Nuevo Mexico in the 1600's.

      On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:59 AM, "sangerjaime@..." <sangerjaime@...> wrote:

      Was it the Spanish in general or the Spanish priests who were the racists?  Many of the Spanish baptismal records that I have gleaned, indicate the priests annotated the Catholic record to indicate their ethnicity, espanol, casta, mestizo, indio, pardo, mulatto, etc....

      Jaime R. Hernandez

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Edward Romero <itsmeed20@...>
      To: MexicoDNAProject <MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Feb 4, 2014 10:23 pm
      Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] Carrillos in Baja California

      Jim Avila, I have to disagree with you about the Ancestors of the Original Californios being in Mexico for CENTURIES, maybe a couple. They first were in Tejas, Nuevo Mexico and Arizona, then they settled California. As for the Carrillo's that family was Spanish, not Mexican. Yes, when they were in Baja and Alta California, they had no choice but to marry the available Indian or Mexican females. Jose Raimundo Carrillo was the First Gov. of Alta California, Leo Carrillo was from that family, so is my Mother.
      I was really surprised that the Spanish were so RACIST, they had all kinds of Racial Categories. It was OK for a Spanish male to marry a Mexican female Indian but it totally unacceptable for the Spanish female to marry a Mexican male Indian, any children from that type of marriage were considered trash. Another thing that really bothered me was how POWERFUL the Catholic Church was how they treated the American Indians. Just for your information, Hitler got the idea for the Yellow Jewish Star, from Queen Isabela, if you were Jewish you had to convert to Catholic Church, leave Spain or wear the Yellow Star, and oh yes she also killed more then a few Jews and I bet she also burned a lot of them.

      On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 8:21 PM, Jaime Avila <jmavila7@...> wrote:
      Sorry to be joining this discussion after so much has "gone down."  I am mainly responding to Teddi's comments and I am emphatically agreeing with him.  I have been researching the Californios as part of a history project for Nipomo Rancho in San Luis Obispo County.  I am also of the conclusion that the Californios for the most part were Mexican.  Many were early settlers from Michoacan, Zacatecas and central Mexico to Sonora--specifically to El Fuerte.  This was in late 1600, after 150+ years of peninsulares being in Mexico and NOT fresh from Spain.  From El Fuerte they went the Baja peninsula and with the Jesuits founded Loreto and the other missions in Baja in the early 1700's.  All the names mentioned in prior discussions as being in Alta California, inlcuding the Carrillos, were the families that eventually settled in Monterey, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles and San Diego and became the Californios.  Leo Carrillo is a descendant of the Carrillos of Santa Barbara as were Ramona Carrillos and Maria Josefa Carrillo who married Anglo sea captains and settled in San Luis Obispo County.

      The history books show that some of the military comandantes and governors that came from Mexico were in fact born in Spain but they were in the minority.  Most of the Californio descendants were from the original soldiers and their families that had been in Mexico for centuries and were the ones that inherited the land grants that became the ranchos of early California.

      On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
      If the Carrillo grandparents or earlier are from La Paz or points south of there to the tip, there is a possibility they are of the Californio clan...if from the mainland, most likely not.   I have not been able to jump the Sea of Cortez from southern Baja with the Carrillo ancestor. in 1715.


      On Feb 4, 2014, at 12:17 PM, Alicia Carrillo wrote:



      I know some Carrillos from Baja California norte, specifically in Ensenada but I don't know their pedigree. They are not related to my husband as far as I know but have been land owners for several generations and married into the family in the late 50's.


      From: Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...>
      To: MexicoDNAProject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:02 PM
      Subject: Re: [MexicoDNAProject] WAS Re: East Asia to Mexico dna now Californios.....

      If I could locate a direct male descendant with a good confirming pedigree I would add the Y test of his to the tests I will be collecting/have collected   from the Carrillo clans in southern Baja California.

      Teddi Montes

      On Feb 4, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Jose rodriguez wrote:



      On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 11:51 AM, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
      They are descendants of this founding family.

      Teddi Montes

      On Feb 4, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Jose rodriguez wrote:


      Check some of the Carrillos in Santa Barbara.

      On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 11:31 AM, Teddi Montes <o2bnbaja@...> wrote:
      The Carrillo family known as founders of the Baja and Alta California Californios were Juan Carrillo and his wife, Lucia Efigenia Millan.  Juan was a soldier in Baja California Sur, enlisted at Loreto by 1715.  His wife was the daughter of the soldier, Lazaro Millan who is found on the 1695 Pima War  Muster in northern Sonora and then found as a mission servant in 1730 in Comondu, BCS.  ALL of their children were born in Baja California with some of them ending up in Alta California.

      Lazaro was illiterate and of mixed background as most soldiers were in the northern frontier troops.  This founding Carrillo couple had at least 8 children, some going north and then returning, and a few remained in Alta California.

      I have just returned from Baja California Sur and was hoping to get a Carrillo Y test done but the Carrillos that remain in the far southern tip were difficult to locate and I will have to return there again to hunt my folks down and get the tests.  

      Over the 40 years I have been doing this research I have found many references to who was "Spanish" and who was not.  When it comes down to it, the Mexican people are an admixture. meaning a combination of 3-5 ethnic groups with Spanish being only a part.  Yes, there are troops who were sent to the northwest frontier from Spain in the 1700s-that is a known.  Were the Californios from Spain?   Maybe a select upper class few, but for the most part, going to the Californias was NOT the choice of a privileged Spaniard and most settlers/soldiers were of poor  mixed background and/or "the seventh son of a seventh son".

      I have a very old 7th generation Californio Spanish-speaking first-language great aunt who was very proud to be of "pure Spanish" background.  I knew through my research that this was just not true.  So after the first 15 years of my work, one day I said to her...."You know, Tia Rosie?  We're aren't Spanish, we're Mexican"....ok, that gradually sunk in as I explained history and how our Californio families fit in and she was proud of that.   This very elderly lady did not like Blacks so I eventually told her about the over 250,000 African slaves that were brought to Mexico by 1700 and, oh by the way, a few of our ancestors on mission records of the early 1700s are listed as mulatos.....hummmmmm

      Okaaaay...she was fascinated and again taking it all in with her 85  yr old brain.  Then one day, I had to gently break it to her about her last prejudice.....she would sometimes make certain comments about Jews.........so one day while drinking coffee with her and listening to her stories of growing up in San Diego, I told her that we had ancestors who were Jewish...Sephardic Jews.  So today she still lives, close to 100, very proud of ALL of her genealogy, her FF testing indicating a couple Spanish hotspots and a whole LOT of Native American.   She is MEXICAN, and proud of it.

      I understand the hesitancy of many people who grew up in California in the late 1800s and early 1900s to admit they were/are Mexican, after all, in San Diego County, there were signs that said "NO MEXICANS ALLOWED" at certain establishments and that was not unusual in California.  Even in the 1930s my aunts talk of these signs at the local pool ...it was much better to say you were Spanish.

      Then one can bring up those soldiers who did come from Spain in the mid-late 1700s and ended up on the northern frontier....Within 50 years, their clothing would evolve to NOT Spanish military uniforms but to what was becoming MEXICAN, even their language would evolve........and even though the sons and daughters of soldiers married other sons and daughters of soldiers---usually cousins-, eventually New Spain would become Mexico and as life goes on, those descendants become NOT Spaniards but Mexican and they flowed nonstop both Californias.

      In California, a subset existed upon the Mex-Am War and afterwards and there has always been an inflow of "families" from the south.  Yes, there were SPANISH families among the Californios, but they, in my opinion, were the minority, and most were of mixed blood.  

      Today the surname of Villavicencio is very prominent in Baja California, going back to a soldier from Mexico in the mid-1700s.  Many of those men today share the same traits---being very TALL and quite handsome and distinguished looking, and one could say Spanish-looking.   A few of these men until recently lived on remote roadless ranchos that have been in the family since before 1850 and their houses were furnished as if one had just walked in to a museum in San Luis Obispo....handmade mission-looking beds and chairs, complete with a special place for ancient santitios.  The friends/researchers who are familiar with them share the general thought that they are of the 18th century and now clashing with a modern world as their children leave the ranches....all over Baja California, one sees old people on the ranches, as the children have left.

      Sorry to wander off topic......please excuse my running-off of the brain.

      In the Californio DNA Project I have tested over 15 Californio males-descendants of the soldiers and mission workers of Baja and Alta California.  I have also done autosomal testing  for both sexes.  I head back for another 5 weeks of mule riding next week.

      Just my 50 pesos worth.....
      Teddi Montes
      The Californio DNA Project

      familia Feliz Leon (Sonora)
      familia Feliz Esquerr (Sonora)
      famila Feliz Penuelas (Sonora)
      familia Cota Leon (Sinaloa)
      familia Cota Verdugo (Baja California)
      familia Carrillo Millan (Baja California)
      famila Verdugo Carrillo (Baja California)
      familia Feliz Cota (Sonora)
      familia Morales Feliz (Alta California)
      familia Marron Morales (Baja and Alta California)
      familia Carrillo Mayoral (Baja California)
      familia Marron Carrillo (Baja California)
      familia Marron Arce (Baja California) 

      On Feb 4, 2014, at 9:45 AM, <mayangrl@...> wrote:

      Hi Ed,

      I live in Sonoma County and we have the Carrillo family here, tho I'm not sure who still carries that name.  I teach middle school, and I recently found out a former student is a descendent of Maria Carrillo, tho I can't remember her last name.  She is blonder than blond and has an English surname. :-P  I'll see if some other teachers remember her.

      We have a high school in Santa Rosa named Maria Carrillo HS. (I sit on the SR school board.)

      Laura González


      Jim Avila

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