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Re: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas son

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  • S E Keays
    Thanks very much! Now, is this same incident (same son) as Todd Jagger describes in his article entitled Ruined Franscian Mission, Laguna Encinillas, El
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2002
      Thanks very much!
       
      Now, is this same incident (same son) as Todd Jagger describes in his article entitled "Ruined Franscian Mission, Laguna Encinillas, El Camino Real, Chichuahua" where he states: "During the Revolution, his son was kidnapped by the revolutionaries and ransom demanded for his return. Sr. Terrazas paid the ransom and he got an ear in return, along with another ransom demand. This was paid and he recieved a finger with another demand. This scenario was played out for at least five transactions."
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:18 PM
      Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas son

      Luis Terrazas son was Luis Terrazs Jr. He was kidnapped by Villa and
      held as a pawn against Terrazas Sr. Villa had occupied Sr's hacienda
      so if Sr. sold that hacienda to the Americans, that hacienda would
      have to be turned over otherwise Villa would get in trouble. By
      holding Jr. he held the hacienda. Also when the Banco Minero
      was "robbed", the "robbers" or actually owners I think, hid the gold
      in one of the pillars of the bank. Luis Jr. knew this and Villa used
      him to eventually get the gold. Villa held him for a long time and
      finally let him go, but shortly after his release, he died with his
      family in the U.S.

      By the way, thanks to all for books and help so far. It seems there
      are only a certain amount of credible books until they all start
      repeating.



      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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    • smokeykoelsch
      Hi, Sharon; No doubt Villa s capture and imprisonment of Luis Terrazas Jr. is the same incident. And Todd Jagger is a photographer whose work in illustrating
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 1, 2002
        Hi, Sharon;
        No doubt Villa's capture and imprisonment of Luis Terrazas Jr. is the
        same incident. And Todd Jagger is a photographer whose work in
        illustrating scenes along El Camino Real is superb. However, I think
        that he has taken the stuff of legend (grown out of hearsay and
        rumor) to romanticize his accompanying text. He really isn't a
        historian, but a colorful story won't hurt a colorful picture.
        Trouble is, that is kind of how history can get distorted. I don't
        think there were really ears, fingers or other body parts delivered
        for ransom money, but that doesn't mean there weren't those
        rumors...apparently there were plenty of those.
        So I will say that, despite the fact that the air was rife with
        stories and rumors that Villa was torturing the younger Terrazas
        (Villa did admit to U.S. agent George Carothers that he had
        been "slightly tortured", but that the perpetrators had been
        reprimanded) he was, for the most part, treating his prisoner well.
        That is because Villa, pragmatic as ever, understood the real value
        of his captive. Manuel Machado Jr. in his book, CENTAUR OF THE
        NORTH, tells of how Villa borrowed a bit of cowboy logic in reference
        to his captive by saying "When the calf is tied, the cow doesn't
        wander very far", meaning that by holding Luis Sr.'s son, he could
        manipulate the wealthy land and cattle baron to further his (Villa's)
        purposes. The manipulations included:
        1.) Keeping the elder Terrazas from giving financial assistance to
        the Huerta government.
        2.) Using the THREAT of physical harm or execution of the captive son
        to extort ransom money from the father.
        3.) To maneuver the old hacendado into signing papers giving Villa
        the legal right to control the vast Terrazas cattle empire,
        especially in regards to the disposition of the great herds. By
        controlling Terrazas, Villa would be aiding the Revolution
        financially and ideologically.
        That is because the elder Terrazas was a very wealthy and powerful
        man. However, the ramifications of the incident reached far beyond
        the Chihuahua City jail. The Terrazas family had many powerful
        friends, including the venerable old Texas cattle baron Charlie
        Goodnight and New Mexico Senator Albert B. Fall, both of whom wielded
        their not inconsiderable power in high places to help keep the
        pressure on Villa to protect the younger Terrazas and hopefully
        settle things and get him released. Of course, the economics of it
        all made it something of an international matter, with Washington
        putting pressure on Carranza to try to keep Villa in line.
        Now I could go on telling more, but I think the point is made that
        the stories of Luis Terrazas Jr.'s dismemberment for ransom money are
        in the realm of myth.
        By the way, the younger Terrazas had been temporarily "freed" by
        Villa in 1914. However, Villa recaptured him in shortly afterwards,
        and Luis Jr. was only able to escape his imprisonment in the latter
        days of 1915, when Villa's control of Chihuahua was collapsing.
        For more information check out Machado's book and Katz's LIFE & TIMES
        OF PANCHO VILLA.
        Best regards, John "Smokey" Koelsch

        --- In MexicanRevolution@y..., "S E Keays" <sekeays@b...> wrote:
        > Thanks very much!
        >
        > Now, is this same incident (same son) as Todd Jagger describes in
        his article entitled "Ruined Franscian Mission, Laguna Encinillas, El
        Camino Real, Chichuahua" where he states: "During the Revolution, his
        son was kidnapped by the revolutionaries and ransom demanded for his
        return. Sr. Terrazas paid the ransom and he got an ear in return,
        along with another ransom demand. This was paid and he recieved a
        finger with another demand. This scenario was played out for at least
        five transactions."
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: phluidradiation
        > To: MexicanRevolution@y...
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:18 PM
        > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas
        son
        >
        >
        > Luis Terrazas son was Luis Terrazs Jr. He was kidnapped by Villa
        and
        > held as a pawn against Terrazas Sr. Villa had occupied Sr's
        hacienda
        > so if Sr. sold that hacienda to the Americans, that hacienda
        would
        > have to be turned over otherwise Villa would get in trouble. By
        > holding Jr. he held the hacienda. Also when the Banco Minero
        > was "robbed", the "robbers" or actually owners I think, hid the
        gold
        > in one of the pillars of the bank. Luis Jr. knew this and Villa
        used
        > him to eventually get the gold. Villa held him for a long time
        and
        > finally let him go, but shortly after his release, he died with
        his
        > family in the U.S.
        >
        > By the way, thanks to all for books and help so far. It seems
        there
        > are only a certain amount of credible books until they all start
        > repeating.
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
      • S E Keays
        Hi John, Clearly, you are an historian. Thank you again for your fine information. I had family in Mexico during the Revolution -- my grandparents, Richard
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 2, 2002
          Hi John,
           
          Clearly, you are an historian.  Thank you again for your fine information. I had family in Mexico during the Revolution -- my grandparents, Richard and Dora Keays.  And I am trying find out (nearly 100 years later) what actually happened.  Their home was approx. 25 kilometers from Cuidad Juarez which my grandfather named Casa Alta.  At one point my grandmother was kidnapped and held for ransom but the young son of some the local people (he had just joined with the insurgents) whom my grandmother had previously invited to be schooled along with her step children, rescued her.  Later on, near the end of the stay there, my grandfather was shot while out herding cattle.  The ones who shot him were hired guns from either the Hearst ranch or from the Terrazas ranch.  It is possible that they mistook him for a cattle rustler, but I don't think so.  At the very end it was Francisco Villa who gave them safe passage out of Mexico, at my grandmother's request, while my grandfather was still ailing from the near fatal gun shot wounds.
           
          This is the project I am working on, piecing together the real story of their lives there.  And the myths of major players in the Revolution are at least equal to the myths in my family about what occurred.  I do have some of my grandmother's notes.  And my cousin has the bank book which was in grandfather's pocket at the time he was shot.  Apparently that was what saved his life, because it slowed down the bullet, preventing it from going all the way through the heart.
           
          Okay, John.  Thank you again.  I do have Katz's book which just arrived day before yesterday so that will be my weekend's task, of plowing through those 800+ pages!
           
          Best regards,
          Sharon Keays
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:14 AM
          Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas son

          Hi, Sharon;
          No doubt Villa's capture and imprisonment of Luis Terrazas Jr. is the
          same incident.  And Todd Jagger is a photographer whose work in
          illustrating scenes along El Camino Real is superb.  However, I think
          that he has taken the stuff of legend (grown out of hearsay and
          rumor) to romanticize his accompanying text.  He really isn't a
          historian, but a colorful story won't hurt a colorful picture. 
          Trouble is, that is kind of how history can get distorted.  I don't
          think there were really ears, fingers or other body parts delivered
          for ransom money, but that doesn't mean there weren't those
          rumors...apparently there were plenty of those.
          So I will say that, despite the fact that the air was rife with
          stories and rumors that Villa was torturing the younger Terrazas
          (Villa did admit to U.S. agent George Carothers that he had
          been "slightly tortured", but that the perpetrators had been
          reprimanded) he was, for the most part, treating his prisoner well.
          That is because Villa, pragmatic as ever, understood the real value
          of his captive.  Manuel Machado Jr. in his book, CENTAUR OF THE
          NORTH, tells of how Villa borrowed a bit of cowboy logic in reference
          to his captive by saying "When the calf is tied, the cow doesn't
          wander very far", meaning that by holding Luis Sr.'s son, he could
          manipulate the wealthy land and cattle baron to further his (Villa's)
          purposes.  The manipulations included:
          1.) Keeping the elder Terrazas from giving financial assistance to
          the Huerta government.
          2.) Using the THREAT of physical harm or execution of the captive son
          to extort ransom money from the father.
          3.) To maneuver the old hacendado into signing papers giving Villa
          the legal right to control the vast Terrazas cattle empire,
          especially in regards to the disposition of the great herds.  By
          controlling Terrazas, Villa would be aiding the Revolution
          financially and ideologically.
          That is because the elder Terrazas was a very wealthy and powerful
          man.  However, the ramifications of the incident reached far beyond
          the Chihuahua City jail.  The Terrazas family had many powerful
          friends, including the venerable old Texas cattle baron Charlie
          Goodnight and New Mexico Senator Albert B. Fall, both of whom wielded
          their not inconsiderable power in high places to help keep the
          pressure on Villa to protect the younger Terrazas and hopefully
          settle things and get him released.  Of course, the economics of it
          all made it something of an international matter, with Washington
          putting pressure on Carranza to try to keep Villa in line.
          Now I could go on telling more, but I think the point is made that
          the stories of Luis Terrazas Jr.'s dismemberment for ransom money are
          in the realm of myth.
          By the way, the younger Terrazas had been temporarily "freed" by
          Villa in 1914.  However, Villa recaptured him in shortly afterwards,
          and Luis Jr. was only able to escape his imprisonment in the latter
          days of 1915, when Villa's control of Chihuahua was collapsing.
          For more information check out Machado's book and Katz's LIFE & TIMES
          OF PANCHO VILLA.
          Best regards, John "Smokey" Koelsch    

          --- In MexicanRevolution@y..., "S E Keays" <sekeays@b...> wrote:
          > Thanks very much!
          >
          > Now, is this same incident (same son) as Todd Jagger describes in
          his article entitled "Ruined Franscian Mission, Laguna Encinillas, El
          Camino Real, Chichuahua" where he states: "During the Revolution, his
          son was kidnapped by the revolutionaries and ransom demanded for his
          return. Sr. Terrazas paid the ransom and he got an ear in return,
          along with another ransom demand. This was paid and he recieved a
          finger with another demand. This scenario was played out for at least
          five transactions."
          >
          >
          >   ----- Original Message -----
          >   From: phluidradiation
          >   To: MexicanRevolution@y...
          >   Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:18 PM
          >   Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas
          son
          >
          >
          >   Luis Terrazas son was Luis Terrazs Jr. He was kidnapped by Villa
          and
          >   held as a pawn against Terrazas Sr. Villa had occupied Sr's
          hacienda
          >   so if Sr. sold that hacienda to the Americans, that hacienda
          would
          >   have to be turned over otherwise Villa would get in trouble. By
          >   holding Jr. he held the hacienda. Also when the Banco Minero
          >   was "robbed", the "robbers" or actually owners I think, hid the
          gold
          >   in one of the pillars of the bank. Luis Jr. knew this and Villa
          used
          >   him to eventually get the gold. Villa held him for a long time
          and
          >   finally let him go, but shortly after his release, he died with
          his
          >   family in the U.S.
          >
          >   By the way, thanks to all for books and help so far. It seems
          there
          >   are only a certain amount of credible books until they all start
          >   repeating.
          >
          >
          >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >               ADVERTISEMENT
          >             
          >       
          >
          >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >   MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@y...
          >
          >
          >
          >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • S E Keays
          Hello, Any suggestions of how my go about finding information on the property my grandparents had, purchased somewhere around 1906-07, about 25 kilometers from
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 3, 2002
            Hello,
             
            Any suggestions of how my go about finding information on the property my grandparents had, purchased somewhere around 1906-07, about 25 kilometers from Cuidad Juarez?
             
            Thanks very much,
             
            Sharon
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: S E Keays
            Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas son

            Hi John,
             
            Clearly, you are an historian.  Thank you again for your fine information. I had family in Mexico during the Revolution -- my grandparents, Richard and Dora Keays.  And I am trying find out (nearly 100 years later) what actually happened.  Their home was approx. 25 kilometers from Cuidad Juarez which my grandfather named Casa Alta.  At one point my grandmother was kidnapped and held for ransom but the young son of some the local people (he had just joined with the insurgents) whom my grandmother had previously invited to be schooled along with her step children, rescued her.  Later on, near the end of the stay there, my grandfather was shot while out herding cattle.  The ones who shot him were hired guns from either the Hearst ranch or from the Terrazas ranch.  It is possible that they mistook him for a cattle rustler, but I don't think so.  At the very end it was Francisco Villa who gave them safe passage out of Mexico, at my grandmother's request, while my grandfather was still ailing from the near fatal gun shot wounds.
             
            This is the project I am working on, piecing together the real story of their lives there.  And the myths of major players in the Revolution are at least equal to the myths in my family about what occurred.  I do have some of my grandmother's notes.  And my cousin has the bank book which was in grandfather's pocket at the time he was shot.  Apparently that was what saved his life, because it slowed down the bullet, preventing it from going all the way through the heart.
             
            Okay, John.  Thank you again.  I do have Katz's book which just arrived day before yesterday so that will be my weekend's task, of plowing through those 800+ pages!
             
            Best regards,
            Sharon Keays
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:14 AM
            Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas son

            Hi, Sharon;
            No doubt Villa's capture and imprisonment of Luis Terrazas Jr. is the
            same incident.  And Todd Jagger is a photographer whose work in
            illustrating scenes along El Camino Real is superb.  However, I think
            that he has taken the stuff of legend (grown out of hearsay and
            rumor) to romanticize his accompanying text.  He really isn't a
            historian, but a colorful story won't hurt a colorful picture. 
            Trouble is, that is kind of how history can get distorted.  I don't
            think there were really ears, fingers or other body parts delivered
            for ransom money, but that doesn't mean there weren't those
            rumors...apparently there were plenty of those.
            So I will say that, despite the fact that the air was rife with
            stories and rumors that Villa was torturing the younger Terrazas
            (Villa did admit to U.S. agent George Carothers that he had
            been "slightly tortured", but that the perpetrators had been
            reprimanded) he was, for the most part, treating his prisoner well.
            That is because Villa, pragmatic as ever, understood the real value
            of his captive.  Manuel Machado Jr. in his book, CENTAUR OF THE
            NORTH, tells of how Villa borrowed a bit of cowboy logic in reference
            to his captive by saying "When the calf is tied, the cow doesn't
            wander very far", meaning that by holding Luis Sr.'s son, he could
            manipulate the wealthy land and cattle baron to further his (Villa's)
            purposes.  The manipulations included:
            1.) Keeping the elder Terrazas from giving financial assistance to
            the Huerta government.
            2.) Using the THREAT of physical harm or execution of the captive son
            to extort ransom money from the father.
            3.) To maneuver the old hacendado into signing papers giving Villa
            the legal right to control the vast Terrazas cattle empire,
            especially in regards to the disposition of the great herds.  By
            controlling Terrazas, Villa would be aiding the Revolution
            financially and ideologically.
            That is because the elder Terrazas was a very wealthy and powerful
            man.  However, the ramifications of the incident reached far beyond
            the Chihuahua City jail.  The Terrazas family had many powerful
            friends, including the venerable old Texas cattle baron Charlie
            Goodnight and New Mexico Senator Albert B. Fall, both of whom wielded
            their not inconsiderable power in high places to help keep the
            pressure on Villa to protect the younger Terrazas and hopefully
            settle things and get him released.  Of course, the economics of it
            all made it something of an international matter, with Washington
            putting pressure on Carranza to try to keep Villa in line.
            Now I could go on telling more, but I think the point is made that
            the stories of Luis Terrazas Jr.'s dismemberment for ransom money are
            in the realm of myth.
            By the way, the younger Terrazas had been temporarily "freed" by
            Villa in 1914.  However, Villa recaptured him in shortly afterwards,
            and Luis Jr. was only able to escape his imprisonment in the latter
            days of 1915, when Villa's control of Chihuahua was collapsing.
            For more information check out Machado's book and Katz's LIFE & TIMES
            OF PANCHO VILLA.
            Best regards, John "Smokey" Koelsch    

            --- In MexicanRevolution@y..., "S E Keays" <sekeays@b...> wrote:
            > Thanks very much!
            >
            > Now, is this same incident (same son) as Todd Jagger describes in
            his article entitled "Ruined Franscian Mission, Laguna Encinillas, El
            Camino Real, Chichuahua" where he states: "During the Revolution, his
            son was kidnapped by the revolutionaries and ransom demanded for his
            return. Sr. Terrazas paid the ransom and he got an ear in return,
            along with another ransom demand. This was paid and he recieved a
            finger with another demand. This scenario was played out for at least
            five transactions."
            >
            >
            >   ----- Original Message -----
            >   From: phluidradiation
            >   To: MexicanRevolution@y...
            >   Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:18 PM
            >   Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: The Kidnapping of Luis Terrazas
            son
            >
            >
            >   Luis Terrazas son was Luis Terrazs Jr. He was kidnapped by Villa
            and
            >   held as a pawn against Terrazas Sr. Villa had occupied Sr's
            hacienda
            >   so if Sr. sold that hacienda to the Americans, that hacienda
            would
            >   have to be turned over otherwise Villa would get in trouble. By
            >   holding Jr. he held the hacienda. Also when the Banco Minero
            >   was "robbed", the "robbers" or actually owners I think, hid the
            gold
            >   in one of the pillars of the bank. Luis Jr. knew this and Villa
            used
            >   him to eventually get the gold. Villa held him for a long time
            and
            >   finally let him go, but shortly after his release, he died with
            his
            >   family in the U.S.
            >
            >   By the way, thanks to all for books and help so far. It seems
            there
            >   are only a certain amount of credible books until they all start
            >   repeating.
            >
            >
            >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >               ADVERTISEMENT
            >             
            >       
            >
            >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >   MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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