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Columbus, New Mexico

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  • Cigarro2@aol.com
    Hopefully I ll be visiting Columbus, NM soon - I have not been to the museum there yet. I want to look around the court house in Demming for the court records
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Hopefully I'll be visiting Columbus, NM soon - I have not been to the museum there yet.  I want to look around the court house in Demming for the court records on the trial that resulted in the hanging deaths of some men accused of having been in the raid. 
       
      Anybody have anything they want to say about what to look for at Columbus?  I would like to also go to the museum in Mexico - has anybody ever been there? 
       
       
       
    • kenneth simon
      Por favor, if they have any post cards, mail me one of each and let me know the cost and I ll send you reimbursement...Muchas gracias. Atto YSSS, Ken
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 1, 2004
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        Por favor, if they have any post cards, mail me one of each and let me know the cost and I'll send you reimbursement...Muchas gracias.
         
        Atto YSSS,
         
        Ken Simon/513-6th Ave.S./Lake Worth FL 33460-4507-11 USA/EEUU

        Cigarro2@... wrote:
        Hopefully I'll be visiting Columbus, NM soon - I have not been to the museum there yet.  I want to look around the court house in Demming for the court records on the trial that resulted in the hanging deaths of some men accused of having been in the raid. 
         
        Anybody have anything they want to say about what to look for at Columbus?  I would like to also go to the museum in Mexico - has anybody ever been there? 
         
         
         


        Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html

        Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at http://ojinaga.com/villa



      • Gerald Raun
        ... let me know the cost and I ll send you reimbursement...Muchas gracias. ... USA/EEUU ... to the museum there yet. I want to look around the court house in
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 1, 2004
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          --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, kenneth simon
          <fpo09501@y...> wrote:
          > Por favor, if they have any post cards, mail me one of each and
          let me know the cost and I'll send you reimbursement...Muchas
          gracias.
          >
          > Atto YSSS,
          >
          > Ken Simon/513-6th Ave.S./Lake Worth FL 33460-4507-11
          USA/EEUU
          >
          > Cigarro2@a... wrote:
          > Hopefully I'll be visiting Columbus, NM soon - I have not been
          to the museum there yet. I want to look around the court house
          in Demming for the court records on the trial that resulted in the
          hanging deaths of some men accused of having been in the
          raid.
          >
          > Anybody have anything they want to say about what to look for
          at Columbus? I would like to also go to the museum in Mexico -
          has anybody ever been there?
          >
          >Prepare to be disappointed in the town. There is not much
          there. The park and visitor's center is informative and interesting.
          The small museum in the old depot was closed when I was
          there. With regard to the villista prisoners after Columbus you
          might want to read "The Villista Prisoners of 1916-1917." by
          James W. Hurst, 2000, Yucca Free Press. If you can find a copy
          of The Journal of Big Bend Studies you can read "Pancho Villa,
          the Columbus Raid and the El Paso Jail Fire." Gerald G. Raun
          2003, Vol. 15:163-180. This is a critical review of reasons given
          for Villa's raid.
          >
          >
          >
          > Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at
          http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html
          >
          > Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at
          http://ojinaga.com/villa
          >
          >
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        • Cigarro2@aol.com
          I will be glad to forward any postcards to you - day noddah...
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 1, 2004
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            I will be glad to forward any postcards to you - day noddah...
          • kenneth simon
            Muchas gracias, amigo! el Simon (Ej. del S) Cigarro2@aol.com wrote:I will be glad to forward any postcards to you - day noddah... Villa and Zapata LARGE
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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              Muchas gracias, amigo! el Simon (Ej. del S)

              Cigarro2@... wrote:
              I will be glad to forward any postcards to you - day noddah...

              Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html

              Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at http://ojinaga.com/villa



            • Gerald Raun
              ... to the museum It is interesting, but virtually no one is aware, that Columbus, New Mexico was not the original target for Villa s raid into the United
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 5, 2004
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                --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, Cigarro2@a...
                wrote:
                > Hopefully I'll be visiting Columbus, NM soon - I have not been
                to the museum


                It is interesting, but virtually no one is aware, that Columbus,
                New Mexico was not the original target for Villa's raid into the
                United States. One of the towns near Ojinaga, perhaps Presidio
                or Shafter was the original target.

                There is a report entitled, "Report of Operations of 'General'
                Francisco Villa Since November 1915." This is a U.S. Army
                Intelligence report based upon testimony of villistas captured at
                Columbus and during the Punitive Expedition. In the report Villa
                is quoted as saying, "We will leave tomorrow t attack the border
                towns of the United States in Ojinaga." He later changed his
                mind because of a series of desertions and turned toward
                Columbus. This is cited by Katz, p. 560 and by me in an article
                entitled. "Pancho Villa, Columbus, and the El Paso Jail Fire."
                Journal of Big Bend Studies, vol. 15:163-180. As far as I know
                these are the only two references to this document which I have
                a copy of. If I can ever figure out how to send an attachment I will
                get this article to Bryant so he can put it on the site if he wants to.
              • Cigarro2@aol.com
                For those who are conspiracy minded there was a newspaper reporter who arrived in Columbus and was getting a scoop in the story as it happened. Seems like he
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 5, 2004
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                  For those who are conspiracy minded there was a newspaper reporter who arrived in Columbus and was getting a scoop in the story as it happened.  Seems like he was telegraphing the news out as it happened?  Or did he have access to a phone line?  I know there was a resident of the town who was on the phone during the raid with somebody outside Columbus. 
                   
                  Where are the Army Intelligence records stored?
                • Gerald Raun
                  ... reporter who I have to ask what is your documentation to support what you have said.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 7, 2004
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                    --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, Cigarro2@a...
                    wrote:
                    > For those who are conspiracy minded there was a newspaper
                    reporter who

                    I have to ask what is your documentation to support what you
                    have said.
                  • Cigarro2@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/7/04 5:02:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, graun@sbcglobal.net writes: have to ask what is your documentation to support what you have
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 7, 2004
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                      In a message dated 11/7/04 5:02:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, graun@... writes:
                      have to ask what is your documentation to support what you
                      have said. 
                      I'm trying to get my files around so I can take some with me hopefully later this week to go to Columbus and Demming.
                       
                      If I can I will get it posted before I leave but probably not until I get back.  I had to piece this one together.  What my version of Columbus is is a horse of a different color from what most consider to have happened. 
                       
                      If you begin with the opening comments of Col. Frank Tompkins in his work and read it through the eyes of the following passage I am excerpting here from his introduction then you can see all bets are off for how the government resolved Columbus.  My version is not a happy story to say the least.  It ranges far beyond the town of Columbus.  Sadly.
                       
                      Col. Tompkins authored his book 18 years after the raid.  In his introduction he states, "It is contended that history, while dealing lightly with the military heroes, should be a record, not only of one's own country, but of the progress of the world as a whole, a history which would show how each element, race or nation, contributed its share to the work of advancement; how one did most, we will say, for government, another for science, another for literature and art, and so on.  It is a noble conception.  The majestic work of the immortal Gibbon might perhaps serve as a model did it not deal overmuch with wars.  It was Gibbon himself who said that history was indeed little more than a register of the crimes, follies, l and misfortunes of mankind.
                          "Others have spoken disparagingly of history.  Pascal called it a perpetual conspiracy against truth.  Voltaire said it was little less than a picture human crimes and misfortunes.  Bollingbroke spoke of the "dignity of history."  When Frederick the Great would have his secretary read history to him he would say: "Bring me my liar."  Napoleon asked the famous question: "What is history but a fable agreed upon?"  Sir Robert Walpole was more direct, "All history is a lie."
                       
                      I assure you if you reread that several times then read his book and reconsider all that you know of the raid on Columbus quite a different picture emerges.  If you can ignore such a chilling introduction as that and consider it so much hyperbole then you are a better man than I...
                    • efdominguez@prodigy.net
                      There have been more references to that document, i.e. Villa raids Columbus N. M. by Bill Rackocy page 167 We will leave tomorrow to attack the border towns
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 7, 2004
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                        There have been more references to that document, i.e. Villa raids
                        Columbus N. M. by Bill Rackocy page 167 "We will leave tomorrow to
                        attack the border towns of the United States in the vicinity of
                        Ojinaga. Large detachments of our troops will join us in route....."

                        This part of the "Intelligence report' looks to me more like a
                        testimony of a Villista prisoner (maybe not so well informed btw);
                        Let me give you an example: a few paragraphs later he describes how
                        Villa intercepted a train and killed general Porfirio Ornelas, when
                        they were in route to Ojinaga.

                        Katz utilizes the "leave tomorrow to attack..." but when he
                        describes the train incident says no passenger was harmed...

                        How come Katz does not mention the part where Villa kills one of his
                        own generals? That had to be a good line...
                        Well; probably Katz as most of you (but you, without knowing) have
                        seen PORFIRIO ORNELAS in a photograph taken in Canutillo 7 years
                        later, sort of a class reunion pic of Villa and his generals... or
                        the famous and well known photograph (1920) of Villa smoking with
                        (yes!) his general Porfirio Ornelas, etc

                        In a few paragraphs later, the report says also that Colonel Julian
                        Cardenas was a deserter and did not go to Columbus; well well, Mr.
                        Julian Cardenas killed W.T. Richie manager of the Hotel in Columbus
                        (that is Sam Ravel Hotel). This Julian Cardenas was killed by George
                        Patton later in May (or at least he claimed he killed him), Cardenas
                        was promoted to general after he was dead by the military reports,
                        go figure!

                        Was this report plain wrong or somebody was feeding (deliberately)
                        very wrong info?

                        Enough for today my friends…


                        --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Raun" <graun@s...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, Cigarro2@a...
                        > wrote:
                        > > Hopefully I'll be visiting Columbus, NM soon - I have not been
                        > to the museum
                        >
                        >
                        > It is interesting, but virtually no one is aware, that Columbus,
                        > New Mexico was not the original target for Villa's raid into the
                        > United States. One of the towns near Ojinaga, perhaps Presidio
                        > or Shafter was the original target.
                        >
                        > There is a report entitled, "Report of Operations of 'General'
                        > Francisco Villa Since November 1915." This is a U.S. Army
                        > Intelligence report based upon testimony of villistas captured at
                        > Columbus and during the Punitive Expedition. In the report Villa
                        > is quoted as saying, "We will leave tomorrow t attack the border
                        > towns of the United States in Ojinaga." He later changed his
                        > mind because of a series of desertions and turned toward
                        > Columbus. This is cited by Katz, p. 560 and by me in an article
                        > entitled. "Pancho Villa, Columbus, and the El Paso Jail Fire."
                        > Journal of Big Bend Studies, vol. 15:163-180. As far as I know
                        > these are the only two references to this document which I have
                        > a copy of. If I can ever figure out how to send an attachment I
                        will
                        > get this article to Bryant so he can put it on the site if he
                        wants to.
                      • E Bryant Holman
                        That picture of Villa smoking with Ornelas is mislabeled. It was taken at Canutillo in 1923. A lot of those pictures are mislabeled, like the one where Villa
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 7, 2004
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                          That picture of Villa smoking with Ornelas is mislabeled. It was taken at Canutillo in 1923.
                           
                          A lot of those pictures are mislabeled, like the one where Villa is supposed to be galloping into Torreon, which was actually a frame from a movie shot in Ojinaga after the Toma de Ojinaga in January, 1914.
                           
                          I have to wonder about any accounts that mention any trains going to Ojinaga. I thought that construction had been halted on the line between Ojinaga and Chihuahua in 1910.
                           
                          " Enrique Creel (the person whose name graces the Copper Canyon town of Creel) of the Kansas City, Mexico, and Orient Railway saw a potential for the rail line to prosper and finished a line to La Junta, Chihuahua from Casas Grandes between 1910-1914. The company also began the Ojinaga to Creel line passing through Chihuahua, but work was halted with start of the Mexican Revolution of 1914.http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/Archives/Nov2003/Print/Mexico.htm
                           
                          That is what this site says, but that doesn't make much sense either!
                           
                          If there were a train line that went from Marfa to Presidio (which there is not even today, anyway - it might come out around Alpine, maybe) that could not have very easily been a part of this tale. I wonder of the person who wrote all of that stuff even investigated the basic facts needed to concoct a plausible sounding piece of fiction.
                           
                          Bryant
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 11:41 PM
                          Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Columbus, New Mexico


                          There have been more references to that document, i.e. Villa raids
                          Columbus N. M. by Bill Rackocy page 167 "We will leave tomorrow to
                          attack the border towns of the United States in the vicinity of
                          Ojinaga. Large detachments of our troops will join us in route....."

                          This part of the "Intelligence report' looks to me more like a
                          testimony of a Villista prisoner (maybe not so well informed btw);
                          Let me give you an example: a few paragraphs later he describes how
                          Villa intercepted a train and killed general Porfirio Ornelas, when
                          they were in route to Ojinaga.

                          Katz utilizes the "leave tomorrow to attack..." but when he
                          describes the train incident says no passenger was harmed...

                          How come Katz does not mention the part where Villa kills one of his
                          own generals? That had to be a good line...
                          Well; probably Katz as most of you (but you, without knowing) have
                          seen PORFIRIO ORNELAS in a photograph taken in Canutillo 7 years
                          later, sort of a class reunion pic of Villa and his generals... or
                          the famous and well known photograph (1920) of Villa smoking with
                          (yes!) his general Porfirio Ornelas, etc <snip>
                        • E Bryant Holman
                          By 1907 the construction reached from Ojinaga, across the border from Presidio, TX, to what is now the town of Creel.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 7, 2004
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                            " By 1907 the construction reached from Ojinaga, across the border from Presidio, TX, to what is now the town of Creel."
                             
                             
                            So there was a train line to Ojinaga.
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:03 AM
                            Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Columbus, New Mexico

                            That picture of Villa smoking with Ornelas is mislabeled. It was taken at Canutillo in 1923.
                             
                            A lot of those pictures are mislabeled, like the one where Villa is supposed to be galloping into Torreon, which was actually a frame from a movie shot in Ojinaga after the Toma de Ojinaga in January, 1914.
                             
                            I have to wonder about any accounts that mention any trains going to Ojinaga. I thought that construction had been halted on the line between Ojinaga and Chihuahua in 1910.
                             
                            " Enrique Creel (the person whose name graces the Copper Canyon town of Creel) of the Kansas City, Mexico, and Orient Railway saw a potential for the rail line to prosper and finished a line to La Junta, Chihuahua from Casas Grandes between 1910-1914. The company also began the Ojinaga to Creel line passing through Chihuahua, but work was halted with start of the Mexican Revolution of 1914.http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/Archives/Nov2003/Print/Mexico.htm
                             
                            That is what this site says, but that doesn't make much sense either!
                             
                            If there were a train line that went from Marfa to Presidio (which there is not even today, anyway - it might come out around Alpine, maybe) that could not have very easily been a part of this tale. I wonder of the person who wrote all of that stuff even investigated the basic facts needed to concoct a plausible sounding piece of fiction.
                             
                            Bryant
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 11:41 PM
                            Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Columbus, New Mexico


                            There have been more references to that document, i.e. Villa raids
                            Columbus N. M. by Bill Rackocy page 167 "We will leave tomorrow to
                            attack the border towns of the United States in the vicinity of
                            Ojinaga. Large detachments of our troops will join us in route....."

                            This part of the "Intelligence report' looks to me more like a
                            testimony of a Villista prisoner (maybe not so well informed btw);
                            Let me give you an example: a few paragraphs later he describes how
                            Villa intercepted a train and killed general Porfirio Ornelas, when
                            they were in route to Ojinaga.

                            Katz utilizes the "leave tomorrow to attack..." but when he
                            describes the train incident says no passenger was harmed...

                            How come Katz does not mention the part where Villa kills one of his
                            own generals? That had to be a good line...
                            Well; probably Katz as most of you (but you, without knowing) have
                            seen PORFIRIO ORNELAS in a photograph taken in Canutillo 7 years
                            later, sort of a class reunion pic of Villa and his generals... or
                            the famous and well known photograph (1920) of Villa smoking with
                            (yes!) his general Porfirio Ornelas, etc <snip>


                            Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html

                            Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at http://ojinaga.com/villa



                          • Cigarro2@aol.com
                            In a message dated 11/7/04 10:42:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, efdominguez@prodigy.net writes: Was this report plain wrong or somebody was feeding
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 8, 2004
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                              In a message dated 11/7/04 10:42:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, efdominguez@... writes:

                              Was this report plain wrong or somebody was feeding (deliberately)
                              very  wrong info?
                              If you read my posting - a quote from a book authored by a retired US colonel who was in Columbus that night - maybe his words will answer your question.  If you read more of the introduction he says he was supported in the effort of his book by other soldiers. 
                            • Cigarro2@aol.com
                              In a message dated 11/7/04 11:15:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bryanth@presidiotex.com writes: By 1907 the construction reached from Ojinaga, across the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 8, 2004
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                                In a message dated 11/7/04 11:15:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bryanth@... writes:
                                " By 1907 the construction reached from Ojinaga, across the border from Presidio, TX, to what is now the town of Creel."
                                Did this rail line connect to the east/west rail line that ran through Columbus?
                              • E Bryant Holman
                                No. It would have either had to go south, through El Paso and Chihuahua
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 8, 2004
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                                  <<Did this rail line connect to the east/west rail line that ran through Columbus?>>
                                   
                                  No. It would have either had to go south, through El Paso and Chihuahua and then go east to Ojinaga, or it would have been another line that went East from El Paso and gone past Marfa, I believe, to somewhere around Ojinaga, and then another train, one would suppose, would go south to Presidio and Ojinaga, but I doubt if any trains were running. Why would they?
                                   
                                  I am not sure where this attack would have taken place, or why there were any trains running to Ojinaga. Didn't Mercado and Terrazas and everyone else use other means of transportation, and not any trains, when they evacuated Chihuahua and went to Ojinaga? Maybe Efren knows the answer to that.
                                   
                                  Bryant
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 5:09 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Columbus, New Mexico

                                  In a message dated 11/7/04 11:15:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bryanth@... writes:
                                  " By 1907 the construction reached from Ojinaga, across the border from Presidio, TX, to what is now the town of Creel."
                                  Did this rail line connect to the east/west rail line that ran through Columbus?


                                  Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html

                                  Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at http://ojinaga.com/villa



                                • Gerald Raun
                                  ... raids ... tomorrow to The incident referred to in the Report of Operations did not take place when Villa was on his way to Ojinaga rather after he
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 8, 2004
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                                    --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com,
                                    "efdominguez@p..." <efdominguez@p...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > There have been more references to that document, i.e. Villa
                                    raids
                                    > Columbus N. M. by Bill Rackocy page 167 "We will leave
                                    tomorrow to

                                    The incident referred to in the Report of Operations did not take
                                    place when Villa was on his way to Ojinaga rather after he
                                    "reportedly" decided not to attack the United States at that point.
                                    The train was stopped at La Laguna on the rail line from Juarez
                                    to Chihuahua, not from Ojinaga. Dr. Ruben Osorio says that the
                                    renegade general killed there was not Porfirio Ornelas but was
                                    actually Tomás Ornelas. It is very easy to get names confused.

                                    In another message a web site was quoted which said that the
                                    rail line from Creel to Ojinaga was completed in 1907. This is a
                                    perfect example of why web sites should not be accepted without
                                    careful checking. The rail line from Topolobampo to Fort Worth
                                    Texas was the Texas, Mexico, and Orient line which was a
                                    dream of promoter A.. E. Stillwell. In Mexico the construction of
                                    the line began at Topolobampo. On June 24, 1909, the Alpine
                                    Avalance quoted a letter from Stillwell in which he said that he
                                    had gotten "the promised concession" and cites freight tariffs
                                    which will be granted "after the road is finished." In December
                                    1909 the company was "operating 367 miles, 87 miles east of
                                    Chihuahua, 77 miles west from Ninaca, 78 miles east of
                                    Topolobampo on the coast, using 125 miles of the Chihuahua
                                    and Pacific railroad." The 87 miles east of Chihuahua ended at
                                    Sostenes, some 60 or more miles southwest of Ojinaga.

                                    In 1913 when General Mercado abandoned Chihuahua and
                                    retreated to Ojinaga. Sostenes is where the line ended. His army
                                    and the accompaning civilians had to walk the fimal miles into
                                    Ojinaga. There is an excellent photograph of General Terrazas
                                    talking to American soldiers in Presidio. He is standing beside
                                    his horse drawn coach. I doubt that if there had been a rainroad
                                    at that time he would have been riding in less luxurious
                                    conditions.

                                    The Orient line into Alpine was not completed until 1913 and
                                    stalled there for another 20 years. The line to Presidio was not
                                    completed until the 1930s, about the same time that Ojinaga
                                    was finally connected to Chihuahua.

                                    Eisenhower's book "Intervention" has a map that incorrectly
                                    shows a rail line to Ojinaga. Not the only inaccuracy in that book.
                                  • E Bryant Holman
                                    Okay, it looks like you already had the research on that in place before I wrote. Good job. ... From: E Bryant Holman To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 8, 2004
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                                      Okay, it looks like you already had the research on that in place before I wrote. Good job.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 11:03 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Columbus, New Mexico

                                      <<Did this rail line connect to the east/west rail line that ran through Columbus?>>
                                       
                                      No. It would have either had to go south, through El Paso and Chihuahua and then go east to Ojinaga, or it would have been another line that went East from El Paso and gone past Marfa, I believe, to somewhere around Ojinaga, and then another train, one would suppose, would go south to Presidio and Ojinaga, but I doubt if any trains were running. Why would they?
                                       
                                      I am not sure where this attack would have taken place, or why there were any trains running to Ojinaga. Didn't Mercado and Terrazas and everyone else use other means of transportation, and not any trains, when they evacuated Chihuahua and went to Ojinaga? Maybe Efren knows the answer to that.
                                       
                                      Bryant
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 5:09 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Columbus, New Mexico

                                      In a message dated 11/7/04 11:15:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bryanth@... writes:
                                      " By 1907 the construction reached from Ojinaga, across the border from Presidio, TX, to what is now the town of Creel."
                                      Did this rail line connect to the east/west rail line that ran through Columbus?


                                      Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html

                                      Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at http://ojinaga.com/villa





                                      Villa and Zapata LARGE POSTERS at http://ojinaga.com/posters/index1.html

                                      Check out the Pancho Villa Home Page at http://ojinaga.com/villa



                                    • efdominguez@prodigy.net
                                      ... General Tomas Ornelas was appointed military commander of Cd. Juarez by Pancho Villa. When Villa returned from Sonora (defeated) Ornelas took amnesty and
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 10, 2004
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                                        --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Raun" <graun@s...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > The train was stopped at La Laguna on the rail line from Juarez
                                        > to Chihuahua, not from Ojinaga. Dr. Ruben Osorio says that the
                                        > renegade general killed there was not Porfirio Ornelas but was
                                        > actually Tomás Ornelas. It is very easy to get names confused.
                                        >
                                        > I do not think that is entirely accurate…
                                        General Tomas Ornelas was appointed military commander of Cd. Juarez
                                        by Pancho Villa. When Villa returned from Sonora (defeated) Ornelas
                                        took amnesty and surrendered the troops (and everything) to Carranza
                                        forces. Some loyal Villistas in Juarez had to fight their way back
                                        to Villa's camp. Tomas Ornelas moved to El Paso in January 1915.

                                        General Tomas Ornelas was killed by Pancho Villa a year later in
                                        similar circumstances, according to the following sources:

                                        Con Villa (1916-1920) Memorias de Campaña" by Jose María Jaurrieta;
                                        page 126.
                                        Was Jose María Jaurrieta a trustworthy source?
                                        Since he gives a lot of details in his book, is quite easy to cross
                                        check him…
                                        A few pages before (page 123) he claims he was with Villa in the
                                        battle of Ojinaga of November 1917, and Villa himself asked him to
                                        go to Presidio to purchase medical supplies along with others of his
                                        staff. He does not say who goes with him…
                                        How could we possibly verify that?
                                        Could a picture of him, and other Villistas shopping in Presido, be
                                        found?
                                        The others would need to renowned Villistas, how about a cousin of
                                        Villa? how about Villa's secretary? How about Villa's doctor?
                                        Picture would have to be from a totally independent source…
                                        Picture would need to be dated …
                                        Oh man… I just hope we do not see in the picture General PORFIRIO
                                        ORNELAS the guy killed a year before, according to the "Intelligence
                                        Report"…

                                        http://gallery.unl.edu/picinfo/1042.html

                                        Before we go back to our issue… for those conspiracy minded, would
                                        you like to see a picture of general PORFIRIO ORNELAS with a US
                                        Dept. of Justice agent?
                                        That is, a year after he was killed by Villa, according to
                                        the "Intelligence report" sorry I can't help it…
                                        http://gallery.unl.edu/picinfo/1039.html

                                        "Hechos Reales de la Revolución –Muerte del Centauro Tomo 7" by
                                        Alberto Calzadíaz Barrera; page 101. (testimony of Reynaldo Mata).
                                        Note: Reynaldo Mata was real close with Villa, trust me.

                                        "El verdadero Pancho Villa" by Angel Rivas López; page 225.
                                        (Testimony of Mariano Mendez Castro, consul Villista and friend of
                                        Ornelas)

                                        My point is: the "Intelligence report" is not real accurate. IMHO.

                                        Efraín Domínguez
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Division_del_Norte/
                                      • efdominguez@prodigy.net
                                        ... taken at Canutillo in 1923. ... to Ojinaga. I thought that construction had been halted on the line between Ojinaga and Chihuahua in 1910. Bryan, 1st Note:
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 10, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman"
                                          <bryanth@p...> wrote:
                                          > That picture of Villa smoking with Ornelas is mislabeled. It was
                                          taken at Canutillo in 1923.

                                          > I have to wonder about any accounts that mention any trains going
                                          to Ojinaga. I thought that construction had been halted on the line
                                          between Ojinaga and Chihuahua in 1910.

                                          Bryan,

                                          1st Note: The pic of Villa smoking with Porfirio Ornelas is in
                                          Sabinas Coahuila, July 1920. No confusion, no mislabeling.
                                          I have in front of me several pics of that event. That is one of
                                          them. Besides, I have in video the same images; it shows is in
                                          Sabinas.

                                          2nd Note: I apologize for my english gramma; I did not mean to say
                                          they were in route to Ojinaga (by train!)SORRY FOR CREATING THE
                                          CONFUSION.
                                          I tried to quickly summarize "The intelligence report". That is the
                                          source I was making reference.

                                          Efraín Domínguez
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Division_del_Norte/
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