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Villa's Autopsy

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  • swbeck2001
    I am currently looking for information concerning Gral. Francisco Villa s autopsy in the Hotel Hidalgo in Parral. Who was the doctor and are there any
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 9 6:21 PM
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      I am currently looking for information concerning Gral. Francisco
      Villa's autopsy in the Hotel Hidalgo in Parral. Who was the doctor
      and are there any documents concerning the autopsy and death
      certificate available? Thanks!
    • Claudia Rivera
      HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO WE KNOW WHERE HIS HEAD IS
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 9 11:09 PM
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        HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO  WE KNOW WHERE HIS HEAD IS ( in a jar @ a  WELL KNOWN TEX SCHOOL USED  TO STUDY) I WE WILL BE GETTING IT BACK ,AND SEND IT BACK TO MEXICO FOT THE MEXICAN PEOPLE . HE  IS A ICON ,VERY SMARDT . I HAVE  A E MAIL. THANKYOU  riveraclaudia@...
      • Claudia Rivera
        HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO WE KNOW WHERE HIS HEAD IS
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 9 11:09 PM
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          HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO  WE KNOW WHERE HIS HEAD IS ( in a jar @ a  WELL KNOWN TEX SCHOOL USED  TO STUDY) I WE WILL BE GETTING IT BACK ,AND SEND IT BACK TO MEXICO FOT THE MEXICAN PEOPLE . HE  IS A ICON ,VERY SMARDT . I HAVE  A E MAIL. THANKYOU  riveraclaudia@...
        • kenneth simon
          Estimada Claudia, My understanding is the head was taken to Yale (University) in the US where a private secret society Skulls uses it as a drinking cup in
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 10 4:31 AM
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            Estimada Claudia,

            My understanding is the head was taken to Yale
            (University) in the US where a private secret society
            "Skulls" uses it as a drinking cup in one of their
            rituals. US President George W. Bush is believed to be
            a member but has remained silent on the topic.

            There also a small book on the matter by the late
            Haldeen Brady of Univ. of Texas (El Paso), a well
            known Villa expert in the US.

            Also in the 1970s and small boy offered me Gral.
            Villa's head while I was vacationing in Acapulco...it
            probably was a monkey skull.

            I'm sure there have been more sightings of Villa's
            head since the 1920s than there have been of Elvis.

            Sad to say, headless, he rests in the Monumento del
            los Heroes de la Revolucion in Mexico City DF.

            Atto y SSS

            El Simon (Ken Simon)

            --- Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...>
            wrote:
            > HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING
            > FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM
            > LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO WE KNOW WHERE HIS
            > HEAD IS ( in a jar @ a WELL KNOWN TEX SCHOOL USED
            > TO STUDY) I WE WILL BE GETTING IT BACK ,AND SEND IT
            > BACK TO MEXICO FOT THE MEXICAN PEOPLE . HE IS A
            > ICON ,VERY SMARDT . I HAVE A E MAIL. THANKYOU
            > riveraclaudia@...
            >
            >


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          • E Bryant Holman
            People who claim to have Villa s head have fraudulent copies. His real head has never been found. I suggest that folks who are interested in this topic read
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 10 6:09 AM
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              People who claim to have Villa's head have fraudulent copies. His real head has never been found. I suggest that folks who are interested in this topic read Dr. Osorio's book "Pancho Villa, Ese Desconocido", in which, in the longer version (longer than the version on the internet at http://www.ojinaga.com/pinon/ ) of the interview with Francisco Piñon, Villa's adopted son, Dr. Piñon, who was in charge of Villa's agricultural colony at Canutillo while Villa was off of the premises - such as on the day he was assassinated - and who was present in the area and keeping abreast of matters during the course of this whole incident, gives a version of the events surrounding the removal of Villa's head and the particulars involved that is at odds with the popular myths and frauds.
               
              The person in charge of the military garrison in Parral, where Villa was buried, made a deal with some Americans to sell Villa's head, and he had his body removed from the tomb, and the head removed, and it was placed in a wooden box that they made for it, and he sent that to Camargo (or Jimenez), to the railway station, where the agent of the Americans was to receive it and pay for it. When the soldier he sent arrived and met with the agent of the American buyers, he found that they had not brought with them the agreed upon amount of money-  they were going to try and get it for less than the agreed upon price- so he telephoned the military commander in Parral who was behind this scheme and told him about this, and he became angry and told the soldier to tell them that the deal was off. When the soldier asked what he should do with the head, he was told to just stop somewhere along the road back to Parral and bury the box with the head in it at the side the road there.
               
              Some years later, when there was no longer any actual danger to Dr. Piñon in talking about this, he was interviewed by an American from Los Angeles, California, whom I believe was a writer. In the interview, Dr. Piñon mentioned these details. As a result, an expedition of a rather large group of Americans came to Chihuahua and organized a project to try and locate the box with the head in it somewhere along the stretch of the Camargo-Parral road where Dr. Piñon had reason to believe that is was buried, but they were unsuccessful. When Dr. Osorio asked Dr. Piñon if he had any record of this, he produced an American newpaper from the period, which had a rather long and detailed article about the American expedition down there.
               
              It should be understood that Dr. Piñon was a lot closer to the actual events than anyone else who has presumed to describe the circumstances. He was in Canutillo on the day Villa was assassinated, and he was recieving intelligence on subsequent events from Villa supporters thereafter, including people right inside of the military garrison. Dr. Piñon was in charge of Villa's agricultural colony at Canutillo up until the (unfortunate) arrival of Villa's brother, Hipólito, and he continued to be the person whom Villa's supporters (whose network rapidly began to disintegrate at his death) looked to as the center of that organization. In short, he was the most credible source of any information about Villa from the time of his "surrender" up until, and after, his death. I have not read these other accounts about Villa's head, but I cannot imagine how they could have better sources than those of Dr. Francisco Piñon.
               
              Naturally, by the time Dr. Osorio interiewed Dr. Piñon, which interview took place, I think, in the 1970's, stories about the whereabouts of Villa's head were in full swing, including that of its supposed possession in the hands of an American university. This particular myth has been given much circulation because of the Mexican movie about Villa, "Así era Pancho Villa", which features the head of Villa in a jar as an integral part of the story. Dr. Piñon spoke directly to this and dismissed these stories as myths and frauds.
               
              This reminds me of the joke about the museum janitor who took some people on a tour of the museum and, when they came upon a skull there, he told them that is was Pancho Villa, and later on, when they came upon a smaller skull, he slipped up and told them that IT was Pancho Villa, also. So when they asked him about the discrepency, he told them that the smaller one was Villa when he was a kid! ;-)
               
              Bryant "Eduardo" Holman
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 6:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] La cabeza de Gral. Villla, Division del Norte

              Estimada Claudia,

              My understanding is the head was taken to Yale
              (University) in the US where a private secret society
              "Skulls" uses it as a drinking cup in one of their
              rituals. US President George W. Bush is believed to be
              a member but has remained silent on the topic.

              There also a small book on the matter by the late
              Haldeen Brady of Univ. of Texas (El Paso), a well
              known Villa expert in the US.

              Also in the 1970s and small boy offered me Gral.
              Villa's head while I was vacationing in Acapulco...it
              probably was a monkey skull.

              I'm sure there have been more sightings of Villa's
              head since the 1920s than there have been of Elvis.

              Sad to say, headless, he rests in the Monumento del
              los Heroes de la Revolucion in Mexico City DF.

              Atto y SSS

              El Simon (Ken Simon)

              --- Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...>
              wrote:
              > HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING
              > FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM
              > LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO  WE KNOW WHERE HIS
              > HEAD IS ( in a jar @ a  WELL KNOWN TEX SCHOOL USED
              > TO STUDY) I WE WILL BE GETTING IT BACK ,AND SEND IT
              > BACK TO MEXICO FOT THE MEXICAN PEOPLE . HE  IS A
              > ICON ,VERY SMARDT . I HAVE  A E MAIL. THANKYOU
              > riveraclaudia@...
              >
              >


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            • fernando ramirez rodriguez
              hola soy fernando ramirez, de monterrey n.l. me gusta mucho el tema de la revolucion mexicana y me gustaria seguir en contacto. adios y saludos. respondeme lo
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 21 11:38 AM
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                hola soy fernando ramirez, de monterrey n.l.
                 
                me gusta mucho el tema de la revolucion mexicana y me gustaria seguir
                en contacto.
                 
                adios y saludos.
                 
                respondeme lo mas pronto .

                Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...> wrote:
                HELLO MY NAME IS BERNARDO VILLAPUDUA.I AM LOOKING FOR MANT SUB. INREGARDS TO MR VILLA . I HAVE A TEAM LOOKING IN TO MANY AREAS. ALSO  WE KNOW WHERE HIS HEAD IS ( in a jar @ a  WELL KNOWN TEX SCHOOL USED  TO STUDY) I WE WILL BE GETTING IT BACK ,AND SEND IT BACK TO MEXICO FOT THE MEXICAN PEOPLE . HE  IS A ICON ,VERY SMARDT . I HAVE  A E MAIL. THANKYOU  riveraclaudia@...


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              • Bob Gato
                An interesting source for the Villa s head imbroglio is the book Yo Decapite Pancho Villa by a Chihuahua reporter. It is mostly an interview with General
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 25 2:52 PM
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                  An interesting source for the Villa's head imbroglio is the book "Yo Decapite Pancho Villa" by a Chihuahua reporter. It is mostly an interview with General Durazo, who was in charge of the garrison at Parral, and other officers. He claims to have organized the decapitation on orders from "the highest levels" in Mexico City (implied: Pres. Calles) and to have delivered it to a pilot who came from the government. All the soldiers involved "mysteriously" died soon after. Calles was a spiritualist in later life, and held seances....so who knows? American mercenary Emil Holmdahl was arrested for the crime, but released the next day. His role was probably that of a red herring for Gen. Durazo and his men. He always denied it, but said he knew who did it. His papers are at the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.

                  Prof. Douglas Nance

                  Universidad Panamericana

                  Mixcoac, Mexico

                   

                   


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                • kenneth simon
                  Sir, Is the book available? Can I get you to buy me one? Braddy mentioned Holmdahl as the culprit and believes the skull was used at Yale Skulls secret
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 26 5:34 AM
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                    Sir,

                    Is the book available? Can I get you to buy me one?
                    Braddy mentioned Holmdahl as the culprit and believes
                    the skull was used at Yale "Skulls" secret society as
                    a ritual cup...

                    Ken Simon, tan lejos de Mejico...

                    --- Bob Gato <biggato9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > An interesting source for the Villa's head imbroglio
                    > is the book "Yo Decapite Pancho Villa" by a
                    > Chihuahua reporter. It is mostly an interview with
                    > General Durazo, who was in charge of the garrison at
                    > Parral, and other officers. He claims to have
                    > organized the decapitation on orders from "the
                    > highest levels" in Mexico City (implied: Pres.
                    > Calles) and to have delivered it to a pilot who came
                    > from the government. All the soldiers involved
                    > "mysteriously" died soon after. Calles was a
                    > spiritualist in later life, and held seances....so
                    > who knows? American mercenary Emil Holmdahl was
                    > arrested for the crime, but released the next day.
                    > His role was probably that of a red herring for Gen.
                    > Durazo and his men. He always denied it, but said he
                    > knew who did it. His papers are at the Bancroft
                    > Library at UC Berkeley.
                    >
                    > Prof. Douglas Nance
                    >
                    > Universidad Panamericana
                    >
                    > Mixcoac, Mexico
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
                    > design software


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                  • Claudia Rivera
                    THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR INFO . I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WERE GEN. HEAD IS I HERD IT IS IN TX, BUT WHAT SCHOOL ?????????????/. Bob Gato
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 28 10:49 PM
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                      THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR INFO . I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WERE GEN. HEAD IS I HERD IT IS IN TX, BUT WHAT SCHOOL ?????????????/.

                      Bob Gato <biggato9@...> wrote:

                      An interesting source for the Villa's head imbroglio is the book "Yo Decapite Pancho Villa" by a Chihuahua reporter. It is mostly an interview with General Durazo, who was in charge of the garrison at Parral, and other officers. He claims to have organized the decapitation on orders from "the highest levels" in Mexico City (implied: Pres. Calles) and to have delivered it to a pilot who came from the government. All the soldiers involved "mysteriously" died soon after. Calles was a spiritualist in later life, and held seances....so who knows? American mercenary Emil Holmdahl was arrested for the crime, but released the next day. His role was probably that of a red herring for Gen. Durazo and his men. He always denied it, but said he knew who did it. His papers are at the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.

                      Prof. Douglas Nance

                      Universidad Panamericana

                      Mixcoac, Mexico

                       

                       


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                    • Bob Gato
                      Dear Ms. Rivera, Repeat...Villa s head is NOT in a school somewhere. Villa was decapitated after death by members of the Mexican army, probably because of the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 29 12:55 PM
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                        Dear Ms. Rivera,
                        Repeat...Villa's head is NOT in a school somewhere. Villa was decapitated after death by members of the Mexican army, probably because of the repeated attempts at revolution by his sympathizers. His head is either: 1) buried by the side of the road near Parral or 2) it was sent to President Calles, and it has long since been disposed of. I'll post the reference to the previously mentioned book when I get back to  the office on Monday.
                        Douglas Nance
                        p.s. Madero's bloody clothes were placed in a glass case by his widow and kept on display in her parlor for many years. She stated "this marks the beginning and the end of my happiness." The tragedy of the Madero's has been greatly underappreciated.

                        Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...> wrote:
                        THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR INFO . I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WERE GEN. HEAD IS I HERD IT IS IN TX, BUT WHAT SCHOOL ?????????????/.


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                      • Claudia Rivera
                        LOOK MR WE ALL KNOW FROM MANY PEOPLE THAT HIS HEAD IS IN A JAR. SO STOP USING YOUR WRONG INFO. THANK YOU MR VALENTINO.IF YOU GOT FACTS TELL US. THANKYOU
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 29 5:55 PM
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                          LOOK MR WE ALL KNOW FROM MANY PEOPLE THAT HIS HEAD IS IN A  JAR. SO STOP USING YOUR WRONG INFO. THANK YOU MR VALENTINO.IF YOU GOT FACTS  TELL US. THANKYOU ANYWAY SIR REALY WE THANKYOU.

                          Bob Gato <biggato9@...> wrote:
                          Dear Ms. Rivera,
                          Repeat...Villa's head is NOT in a school somewhere. Villa was decapitated after death by members of the Mexican army, probably because of the repeated attempts at revolution by his sympathizers. His head is either: 1) buried by the side of the road near Parral or 2) it was sent to President Calles, and it has long since been disposed of. I'll post the reference to the previously mentioned book when I get back to  the office on Monday.
                          Douglas Nance
                          p.s. Madero's bloody clothes were placed in a glass case by his widow and kept on display in her parlor for many years. She stated "this marks the beginning and the end of my happiness." The tragedy of the Madero's has been greatly underappreciated.

                          Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...> wrote:
                          THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR INFO . I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WERE GEN. HEAD IS I HERD IT IS IN TX, BUT WHAT SCHOOL ?????????????/.



                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                        • E Bryant Holman
                          His head is not in any jar. That is a myth. It was discredited years ago by people who were present in Parral when all of this took place, the most important
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 30 6:20 AM
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                            His head is not in any jar. That is a myth. It was discredited years ago by people who were present in Parral when all of this took place, the most important of these being Villa's adopted son, Francisco Piñon,  who declared unequivocably in an interview with Dr. Rubén Orosio that they head was buried by the side of the road between Parral and Camargo in Southern Chihuahua state by a Mexican soldier under orders of the commander of the garrison in Parral, after an unsuccessful attempt to sell it to some Americans at the train station in Camargo.
                             
                            If his head were in a jar, it would have been produced and shown publicly years ago, but no one has done so since, and they never will, because this remains a myth.
                             
                            Bryant
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 7:55 PM
                            Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Villa's Autopsy

                            LOOK MR WE ALL KNOW FROM MANY PEOPLE THAT HIS HEAD IS IN A  JAR. SO STOP USING YOUR WRONG INFO. THANK YOU MR VALENTINO.IF YOU GOT FACTS  TELL US. THANKYOU ANYWAY SIR REALY WE THANKYOU.

                            Bob Gato <biggato9@...> wrote:
                            Dear Ms. Rivera,
                            Repeat...Villa's head is NOT in a school somewhere. Villa was decapitated after death by members of the Mexican army, probably because of the repeated attempts at revolution by his sympathizers. His head is either: 1) buried by the side of the road near Parral or 2) it was sent to President Calles, and it has long since been disposed of. I'll post the reference to the previously mentioned book when I get back to  the office on Monday.
                            Douglas Nance
                            p.s. Madero's bloody clothes were placed in a glass case by his widow and kept on display in her parlor for many years. She stated "this marks the beginning and the end of my happiness." The tragedy of the Madero's has been greatly underappreciated.

                            Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...> wrote:
                            THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR INFO . I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WERE GEN. HEAD IS I HERD IT IS IN TX, BUT WHAT SCHOOL ?????????????/.



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                            MexicanRevolution-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          • E Bryant Holman
                            I might add that the only motive behind this act was money. The commander of the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 30 8:16 AM
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                              <<because of the repeated attempts at revolution by his sympathizers>>
                               
                              I might add that the only motive behind this act was money. The commander of the garrison was going to sell it, and this was something that he was doing entirely on his own, without the knowledge or permission of Obregon or of the supreme military command in Mexico City. The Americans sent their agent to the train station in Camargo, where a soldier was going to turn the head over to them, but they did not send the amount of money that the commander has asked for. The soldier called him on the telephone to inform him as to what happened, and he was ordered to return to Parral and to just bury the head in a box he was carrying it in by the side of the road.
                               
                              Francisco Piñon was informed of all of this when it was taking place, because there were people in Parral and even inside the military garrison who were loyal to Villa, and Piñon was considered by everyone to be the person in charge of Villa's affairs, such that any intelligence of any sort was passed on to him. He could not act on this or even discuss it, howver, until years later, because he would have been in grave danger if the wrong people were to find out that he knew about this.
                               
                              Only a few short years later, however, he did reveal this to some Americans and his version of events came out in at least one US newspaper, which he showed a copy of that newspaper account to Dr. Osorio in the late 1960's or early 1970's when Osorio interviewed him.
                               
                              There has been no report that contradicts this which has the sort of authenticity and first hand nature of  Piñon's version.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 8:20 AM
                              Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Villa's Autopsy

                              His head is not in any jar. That is a myth. It was discredited years ago by people who were present in Parral when all of this took place, the most important of these being Villa's adopted son, Francisco Piñon,  who declared unequivocably in an interview with Dr. Rubén Orosio that they head was buried by the side of the road between Parral and Camargo in Southern Chihuahua state by a Mexican soldier under orders of the commander of the garrison in Parral, after an unsuccessful attempt to sell it to some Americans at the train station in Camargo.
                               
                              If his head were in a jar, it would have been produced and shown publicly years ago, but no one has done so since, and they never will, because this remains a myth.
                               
                              Bryant
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 7:55 PM
                              Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Villa's Autopsy

                              LOOK MR WE ALL KNOW FROM MANY PEOPLE THAT HIS HEAD IS IN A  JAR. SO STOP USING YOUR WRONG INFO. THANK YOU MR VALENTINO.IF YOU GOT FACTS  TELL US. THANKYOU ANYWAY SIR REALY WE THANKYOU.

                              Bob Gato <biggato9@...> wrote:
                              Dear Ms. Rivera,
                              Repeat...Villa's head is NOT in a school somewhere. Villa was decapitated after death by members of the Mexican army, probably because of the repeated attempts at revolution by his sympathizers. His head is either: 1) buried by the side of the road near Parral or 2) it was sent to President Calles, and it has long since been disposed of. I'll post the reference to the previously mentioned book when I get back to  the office on Monday.
                              Douglas Nance
                              p.s. Madero's bloody clothes were placed in a glass case by his widow and kept on display in her parlor for many years. She stated "this marks the beginning and the end of my happiness." The tragedy of the Madero's has been greatly underappreciated.

                              Claudia Rivera <riveraclaudia@...> wrote:
                              THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR INFO . I REALY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WERE GEN. HEAD IS I HERD IT IS IN TX, BUT WHAT SCHOOL ?????????????/.



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