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Emiliano Zapata

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  • hpd404
    I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site. He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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      I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
      He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
    • kenneth simon
      No.....Ken Simon E del S ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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        No.....Ken Simon E del S

        --- hpd404 <pfedelin@...> wrote:

        > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico
        > about this site.
        > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard
        > this before?
        >
        >
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
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      • Pancho Fedelin
        No, havent heard this before, or no he wasn t homosexual? ... From: kenneth simon To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 13:03
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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          No, havent heard this before, or no he wasn't homosexual?
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 13:03
          Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

          No.....Ken Simon E del S

          --- hpd404 <pfedelin@pld. com> wrote:

          > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico
          > about this site.
          > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard
          > this before?
          >
          >
          >
          >

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        • E Bryant Holman
          I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to him. Bryant ... From: hpd404 To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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            I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to him.
             
            Bryant
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: hpd404
            Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
            Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

            I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
            He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?

          • Pancho Fedelin
            Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002. Lot of good info. ... From: E Bryant Holman To:
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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              Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002.  Lot of good info.
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
              Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

              I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to him.
               
              Bryant
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: hpd404
              Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
              Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

              I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
              He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?


              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
            • E Bryant Holman
              I don t think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio was interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 1, 2006
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                I don't think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio was interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about Obregon, and these people mentioned in passing a matter that had surfaced and been repressed decades ago, wherein doubts about Zatata's sexual orientation were brought into doubt. Osorio, naturally, elicited further details from his subjects and then went on to run down the leads and get more facts on the subject.
                 
                Just as a matter of looking at certain facts that are well known, the following might be noted:
                 
                Manuel Palafox, the accuser of Otilio E. Montaño, was without a shadow of a doubt an aggressive homosexual - so much so that the fact that when he was kept under house arrest after his fall from grace, during with period he kept up with his reckless and obsessive advances on other men there at Zapatista staff headquarters, which he had formerly directed. The fact that Zapata seemed to turn a blind eye to all of this and that seemed to be paralized about what to do (a typical reaction on his part) raised a lot of eyebrows then. Palafox eventually escaped and spent his time trying to capitalize on the business of running down Zapata.
                 
                Otilio E. Montaño was, in large measure, a victim of Palafox's obsessive vindictiveness, and that was another thing that raised eyebrows about Zapata - how it was that he stayed away from this disgraceful incident and simply let Palafox destroy the author of the Plan de Ayala himself.
                 
                Osorio pointed out some of the following items to me:
                 
                Many of you will be familiar with the fact that Zapata was actually a professional horse trainer and that his most important client was the nephew of Porfirio Diaz, who was a known homosexual. It turns out that Zapata actually had this guy kidnapped, and he kept him by force in Morelos from that point on. When he was finally released, his family sent him to a hospital in Texas in order to try and save his life, because of the damage to his lower intestine due to (likely forced) anal sex. They were not successful in this and he died.
                 
                Bryant
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 2:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

                Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002.  Lot of good info.
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
                Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

                I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to him.
                 
                Bryant
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: hpd404
                Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
                Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata

                I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
                He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?


                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006

              • rifleman1913
                This is all extremely circumstantial, in fact not evidentiary at all. Palofax was, indeed, widely known as an aggressive homosexual; that fact helped lead to
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  This is all extremely circumstantial, in fact not evidentiary at all.

                  Palofax was, indeed, widely known as an aggressive homosexual; that fact helped lead to
                  his downfall after his political star was eclipsed.

                  Zapata's inaction to defend Montaño can be explained by his frequent inability to deal
                  immediately and decisively with personnel conflicts and by Montaños apparent wavering in
                  his commitment to the cause. He appears to have been framed as a potential or actual
                  turncoat. Treachery was one thing Zapata and all the revolutionary chiefs feared and
                  despised (with obvious good reason).

                  I can't speak to the implied relationship with Diaz's nephew. It takes more than proximity
                  to make a case.

                  I think it unlikely that Zapata would have reached the prominence he did in a hyper-macho
                  culture and milieu if he had been homosexual — and everything I've heard or read about
                  him indicates that he was as prolific if not as flamboyant a womanizer as Villa.

                  I suppose it is possible that he engaged in homosexual activity (not quite the same thing
                  as being a homosexual; witness prisoner populations) and it is true that the most macho
                  cultures look differently at the active and the passive partner in such actions; ie., one
                  wouldn't necessarily lose status if one was the doer but one would never be respected as a
                  warrior leader as the do-ee.

                  But overall, this strikes me as inuendo rather than evidence.

                  BTW, I have heard and read similar musings about Rudolfo Fierro. Any thoughts on that?

                  --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio was
                  interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about Obregon, and these
                  people mentioned in passing a matter that had surfaced and been repressed decades ago,
                  wherein doubts about Zatata's sexual orientation were brought into doubt. Osorio,
                  naturally, elicited further details from his subjects and then went on to run down the leads
                  and get more facts on the subject.
                  >
                  > Just as a matter of looking at certain facts that are well known, the following might be
                  noted:
                  >
                  > Manuel Palafox, the accuser of Otilio E. Montaño, was without a shadow of a doubt an
                  aggressive homosexual - so much so that the fact that when he was kept under house
                  arrest after his fall from grace, during with period he kept up with his reckless and
                  obsessive advances on other men there at Zapatista staff headquarters, which he had
                  formerly directed. The fact that Zapata seemed to turn a blind eye to all of this and that
                  seemed to be paralized about what to do (a typical reaction on his part) raised a lot of
                  eyebrows then. Palafox eventually escaped and spent his time trying to capitalize on the
                  business of running down Zapata.
                  >
                  > Otilio E. Montaño was, in large measure, a victim of Palafox's obsessive vindictiveness,
                  and that was another thing that raised eyebrows about Zapata - how it was that he stayed
                  away from this disgraceful incident and simply let Palafox destroy the author of the Plan
                  de Ayala himself.
                  >
                  > Osorio pointed out some of the following items to me:
                  >
                  > Many of you will be familiar with the fact that Zapata was actually a professional horse
                  trainer and that his most important client was the nephew of Porfirio Diaz, who was a
                  known homosexual. It turns out that Zapata actually had this guy kidnapped, and he kept
                  him by force in Morelos from that point on. When he was finally released, his family sent
                  him to a hospital in Texas in order to try and save his life, because of the damage to his
                  lower intestine due to (likely forced) anal sex. They were not successful in this and he
                  died.
                  >
                  > Bryant
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Pancho Fedelin
                  > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 2:42 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002. Lot
                  of good info.
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: E Bryant Holman
                  > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
                  > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to
                  him.
                  >
                  > Bryant
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: hpd404
                  > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
                  > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                  >
                  >
                  > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
                  > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
                  >
                • E Bryant Holman
                  I do not think it is all that circumstantial. Osorio s witnesses stated this as a well-known fact among persons who were related to some of the protagonists,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 2, 2006
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                    I do not think it is all that circumstantial. Osorio's witnesses stated this as a well-known fact among persons who were related to some of the protagonists, which they declared to him with absolute certainty. After that he actually looked into archival material that substantiated the claims. That is how I believe this took place.
                     
                    I simply pointed out some other matters. It is not unusual at all for Mexican homosexuals to put on a mask of machismo. In a place like Morelos at the time, to do otherwise would be to risk being killed by anti-gay bigots, likely.
                     
                    I also think that one thing that has always retarded any efforts to deconstruct the myth of Zapata is that people have so much emotional collateral invested in his myth that it makes it difficult to see him as anything other than some mythical hero.
                     
                    The matter of the relationship with don Porfirio's nephew is more than just passing. Zapata had been sentenced to be conscripted and to go to Yucatan to fight the incessant rebellion there, and this was tantamount to a death sentence for him, and he was freed of that by way of having to go serve Diaz's nephew as his personal horse trainer. These circumstances made Zapata into practically the man's slave. So, later, Zapata had him kidnapped and brought to him, where he spent the rest of the war, until he was liberated at the end, probably by Abelardo Mangaña.
                     
                    Osorio, I know, would not state something as a fact unless he was quite sure this was so, and his methods of scholarship are much more solid than any other Mexican historian that I know of - including Krauze.
                     
                    Zapata, as a matter of a fact, was anything but a charismatic leader. He was a person who rose to the top mainly because his rivals did not consider him to be a threat to their little fiefdoms, and they formed a rather distrusting coalition out of the necessity of survival, gradually conceding power to his command over the course of time, with some partisan leaders keeping varying degrees of autonomy. For instance, the most autonomous was probably Genovevo de la O, who I don't think ever allowed himself to be ordered around by Zapata and his staff. Zapata had a bad habit of going off on a drunk when the heat got the worst, and leaving things in the hands of his underlings. He could never get enough ammunition together to fight a pitched battle, and he never capture any really valuable military hardware form the enemy, such as trains or cannon or machineguns, whereas Villa did it all the time, and pretty much held Zapata in scorn for his lack of martial prowess and for his alcoholism.
                     
                    Zapata was artificially propped up into a mythical hero by the Mexican government probably starting with Obregon (I am guessing) and especially later on under Cardenas, in an attempt to displace the image of Villa in the popular mind of the lower classes. This revisionism was helped along quite a bit due to the fact that the intellectuals who molded modern Mexican thought in the post-revolution era were in Mexico city and many of them had been involved with the zapatistas. Dr. Atl and his whole circle of sycophants came from the group or radical intellectuals (of which Palafox was one, actually, as was Díaz Soto y Gama) who fled Mexico City and went to Zapata for protection, and then made up his general staff and secretarial staff (pretty much one in the same operation, actually). It was actually Genovevo de la O who created the circumstances for these people, who had been fighting openly with Carranza, to get in the good graces of Obregon and later on parley their entree with the Mexican postrevolution government into the patronage that they were to receive with the rise of the SEP and its appended institutions.
                     
                    So, in the process of all of these arrangements taking place, the mythmaking around the person of Zapata developed.
                     
                    As far as Fierro, I don't think that is true. Villa would have been completely intolerant of that, for one thing, and for another, if there were something worth investigating in that regard, I would imagine that Osorio would have looked into it by now.
                     
                    By the way, Villa was certainly an obsessive womanizer, and the details are well documented (the stories of the phony marriages are false, however). But I don't think that there is much to the notion that Zapata did so much of that. Certainly he got drunk a lot, but he didn't spend his time while he was drunk chasing women. If someone has some documentation that demonstrates otherwise, I would be interested in seeing it.
                     
                    Maybe when John shows up - since he is going down to Chihuahua eventually - according to his grandmother - we can get him to swing by and see Osorio and dig some concrete material on these matters. Osorio still has the largest collection of Villa archival material in the world.
                     
                    Bryant
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:42 PM
                    Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Emiliano Zapata

                    This is all extremely circumstantial, in fact not evidentiary at all.

                    Palofax was, indeed, widely known as an aggressive homosexual; that fact helped lead to
                    his downfall after his political star was eclipsed.

                    Zapata's inaction to defend Montaño can be explained by his frequent inability to deal
                    immediately and decisively with personnel conflicts and by Montaños apparent wavering in
                    his commitment to the cause. He appears to have been framed as a potential or actual
                    turncoat. Treachery was one thing Zapata and all the revolutionary chiefs feared and
                    despised (with obvious good reason).

                    I can't speak to the implied relationship with Diaz's nephew. It takes more than proximity
                    to make a case.

                    I think it unlikely that Zapata would have reached the prominence he did in a hyper-macho
                    culture and milieu if he had been homosexual — and everything I've heard or read about
                    him indicates that he was as prolific if not as flamboyant a womanizer as Villa.

                    I suppose it is possible that he engaged in homosexual activity (not quite the same thing
                    as being a homosexual; witness prisoner populations) and it is true that the most macho
                    cultures look differently at the active and the passive partner in such actions; ie., one
                    wouldn't necessarily lose status if one was the doer but one would never be respected as a
                    warrior leader as the do-ee.

                    But overall, this strikes me as inuendo rather than evidence.

                    BTW, I have heard and read similar musings about Rudolfo Fierro. Any thoughts on that?

                    --- In MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@... > wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio was
                    interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about Obregon, and these
                    people mentioned in passing a matter that had surfaced and been repressed decades ago,
                    wherein doubts about Zatata's sexual orientation were brought into doubt. Osorio,
                    naturally, elicited further details from his subjects and then went on to run down the leads
                    and get more facts on the subject.
                    >
                    > Just as a matter of looking at certain facts that are well known, the following might be
                    noted:
                    >
                    > Manuel Palafox, the accuser of Otilio E. Montaño, was without a shadow of a doubt an
                    aggressive homosexual - so much so that the fact that when he was kept under house
                    arrest after his fall from grace, during with period he kept up with his reckless and
                    obsessive advances on other men there at Zapatista staff headquarters, which he had
                    formerly directed. The fact that Zapata seemed to turn a blind eye to all of this and that
                    seemed to be paralized about what to do (a typical reaction on his part) raised a lot of
                    eyebrows then. Palafox eventually escaped and spent his time trying to capitalize on the
                    business of running down Zapata.
                    >
                    > Otilio E. Montaño was, in large measure, a victim of Palafox's obsessive vindictiveness,
                    and that was another thing that raised eyebrows about Zapata - how it was that he stayed
                    away from this disgraceful incident and simply let Palafox destroy the author of the Plan
                    de Ayala himself.
                    >
                    > Osorio pointed out some of the following items to me:
                    >
                    > Many of you will be familiar with the fact that Zapata was actually a professional horse
                    trainer and that his most important client was the nephew of Porfirio Diaz, who was a
                    known homosexual. It turns out that Zapata actually had this guy kidnapped, and he kept
                    him by force in Morelos from that point on. When he was finally released, his family sent
                    him to a hospital in Texas in order to try and save his life, because of the damage to his
                    lower intestine due to (likely forced) anal sex. They were not successful in this and he
                    died.
                    >
                    > Bryant
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Pancho Fedelin
                    > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 2:42 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002. Lot
                    of good info.
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: E Bryant Holman
                    > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
                    > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to
                    him.
                    >
                    > Bryant
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: hpd404
                    > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
                    > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                    >
                    >
                    > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
                    > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
                    >

                  • rifleman1913
                    I remain skeptical. Working in journalism in a small town, I have years of experience with things that people know for absolute certain that aren t so. What
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 3, 2006
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                      I remain skeptical. Working in journalism in a small town, I have years of experience with
                      things that people know for absolute certain that aren't so. What are the archival sources
                      that support the claims?

                      I'm surprised, if such exist, that they haven't been exploited by people with a lifestyle
                      agenda. A gay pride parade chanting Viva Zapata would be a sight to behold.

                      That said, I agree with you that mythologization has made it impossible to get at the
                      actual Zapata; people are indeed deeply emotionally attached to him as a symbol. It would
                      be interesting to see a truly dispassionate analysis of the Zapatista movement that deals
                      with what you describe as the distrusting coalition — a characterization that I think is
                      quite accurate.

                      I, too, have always thought the innuendo about Fierro was bunk. Seems to me to be one of
                      those sly manufactured ironies — this hyper masculine killer was actually a swish.

                      Interesting matters to kick around...

                      --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I do not think it is all that circumstantial. Osorio's witnesses stated this as a well-known
                      fact among persons who were related to some of the protagonists, which they declared to
                      him with absolute certainty. After that he actually looked into archival material that
                      substantiated the claims. That is how I believe this took place.
                      >
                      > I simply pointed out some other matters. It is not unusual at all for Mexican
                      homosexuals to put on a mask of machismo. In a place like Morelos at the time, to do
                      otherwise would be to risk being killed by anti-gay bigots, likely.
                      >
                      > I also think that one thing that has always retarded any efforts to deconstruct the myth
                      of Zapata is that people have so much emotional collateral invested in his myth that it
                      makes it difficult to see him as anything other than some mythical hero.
                      >
                      > The matter of the relationship with don Porfirio's nephew is more than just passing.
                      Zapata had been sentenced to be conscripted and to go to Yucatan to fight the incessant
                      rebellion there, and this was tantamount to a death sentence for him, and he was freed of
                      that by way of having to go serve Diaz's nephew as his personal horse trainer. These
                      circumstances made Zapata into practically the man's slave. So, later, Zapata had him
                      kidnapped and brought to him, where he spent the rest of the war, until he was liberated
                      at the end, probably by Abelardo Mangaña.
                      >
                      > Osorio, I know, would not state something as a fact unless he was quite sure this was
                      so, and his methods of scholarship are much more solid than any other Mexican historian
                      that I know of - including Krauze.
                      >
                      > Zapata, as a matter of a fact, was anything but a charismatic leader. He was a person
                      who rose to the top mainly because his rivals did not consider him to be a threat to their
                      little fiefdoms, and they formed a rather distrusting coalition out of the necessity of
                      survival, gradually conceding power to his command over the course of time, with some
                      partisan leaders keeping varying degrees of autonomy. For instance, the most
                      autonomous was probably Genovevo de la O, who I don't think ever allowed himself to be
                      ordered around by Zapata and his staff. Zapata had a bad habit of going off on a drunk
                      when the heat got the worst, and leaving things in the hands of his underlings. He could
                      never get enough ammunition together to fight a pitched battle, and he never capture any
                      really valuable military hardware form the enemy, such as trains or cannon or
                      machineguns, whereas Villa did it all the time, and pretty much held Zapata in scorn for
                      his lack of martial prowess and for his alcoholism.
                      >
                      > Zapata was artificially propped up into a mythical hero by the Mexican government
                      probably starting with Obregon (I am guessing) and especially later on under Cardenas, in
                      an attempt to displace the image of Villa in the popular mind of the lower classes. This
                      revisionism was helped along quite a bit due to the fact that the intellectuals who molded
                      modern Mexican thought in the post-revolution era were in Mexico city and many of them
                      had been involved with the zapatistas. Dr. Atl and his whole circle of sycophants came
                      from the group or radical intellectuals (of which Palafox was one, actually, as was Díaz
                      Soto y Gama) who fled Mexico City and went to Zapata for protection, and then made up
                      his general staff and secretarial staff (pretty much one in the same operation, actually). It
                      was actually Genovevo de la O who created the circumstances for these people, who had
                      been fighting openly with Carranza, to get in the good graces of Obregon and later on
                      parley their entree with the Mexican postrevolution government into the patronage that
                      they were to receive with the rise of the SEP and its appended institutions.
                      >
                      > So, in the process of all of these arrangements taking place, the mythmaking around the
                      person of Zapata developed.
                      >
                      > As far as Fierro, I don't think that is true. Villa would have been completely intolerant of
                      that, for one thing, and for another, if there were something worth investigating in that
                      regard, I would imagine that Osorio would have looked into it by now.
                      >
                      > By the way, Villa was certainly an obsessive womanizer, and the details are well
                      documented (the stories of the phony marriages are false, however). But I don't think that
                      there is much to the notion that Zapata did so much of that. Certainly he got drunk a lot,
                      but he didn't spend his time while he was drunk chasing women. If someone has some
                      documentation that demonstrates otherwise, I would be interested in seeing it.
                      >
                      > Maybe when John shows up - since he is going down to Chihuahua eventually -
                      according to his grandmother - we can get him to swing by and see Osorio and dig some
                      concrete material on these matters. Osorio still has the largest collection of Villa archival
                      material in the world.
                      >
                      > Bryant
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: rifleman1913
                      > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:42 PM
                      > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Emiliano Zapata
                      >
                      >
                      > This is all extremely circumstantial, in fact not evidentiary at all.
                      >
                      > Palofax was, indeed, widely known as an aggressive homosexual; that fact helped lead
                      to
                      > his downfall after his political star was eclipsed.
                      >
                      > Zapata's inaction to defend Montaño can be explained by his frequent inability to deal
                      > immediately and decisively with personnel conflicts and by Montaños apparent
                      wavering in
                      > his commitment to the cause. He appears to have been framed as a potential or actual
                      > turncoat. Treachery was one thing Zapata and all the revolutionary chiefs feared and
                      > despised (with obvious good reason).
                      >
                      > I can't speak to the implied relationship with Diaz's nephew. It takes more than
                      proximity
                      > to make a case.
                      >
                      > I think it unlikely that Zapata would have reached the prominence he did in a hyper-
                      macho
                      > culture and milieu if he had been homosexual - and everything I've heard or read
                      about
                      > him indicates that he was as prolific if not as flamboyant a womanizer as Villa.
                      >
                      > I suppose it is possible that he engaged in homosexual activity (not quite the same
                      thing
                      > as being a homosexual; witness prisoner populations) and it is true that the most
                      macho
                      > cultures look differently at the active and the passive partner in such actions; ie., one
                      > wouldn't necessarily lose status if one was the doer but one would never be respected
                      as a
                      > warrior leader as the do-ee.
                      >
                      > But overall, this strikes me as inuendo rather than evidence.
                      >
                      > BTW, I have heard and read similar musings about Rudolfo Fierro. Any thoughts on
                      that?
                      >
                      > --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I don't think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio was
                      > interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about Obregon, and
                      these
                      > people mentioned in passing a matter that had surfaced and been repressed decades
                      ago,
                      > wherein doubts about Zatata's sexual orientation were brought into doubt. Osorio,
                      > naturally, elicited further details from his subjects and then went on to run down the
                      leads
                      > and get more facts on the subject.
                      > >
                      > > Just as a matter of looking at certain facts that are well known, the following might
                      be
                      > noted:
                      > >
                      > > Manuel Palafox, the accuser of Otilio E. Montaño, was without a shadow of a doubt
                      an
                      > aggressive homosexual - so much so that the fact that when he was kept under house
                      > arrest after his fall from grace, during with period he kept up with his reckless and
                      > obsessive advances on other men there at Zapatista staff headquarters, which he had
                      > formerly directed. The fact that Zapata seemed to turn a blind eye to all of this and
                      that
                      > seemed to be paralized about what to do (a typical reaction on his part) raised a lot of
                      > eyebrows then. Palafox eventually escaped and spent his time trying to capitalize on
                      the
                      > business of running down Zapata.
                      > >
                      > > Otilio E. Montaño was, in large measure, a victim of Palafox's obsessive
                      vindictiveness,
                      > and that was another thing that raised eyebrows about Zapata - how it was that he
                      stayed
                      > away from this disgraceful incident and simply let Palafox destroy the author of the
                      Plan
                      > de Ayala himself.
                      > >
                      > > Osorio pointed out some of the following items to me:
                      > >
                      > > Many of you will be familiar with the fact that Zapata was actually a professional
                      horse
                      > trainer and that his most important client was the nephew of Porfirio Diaz, who was a
                      > known homosexual. It turns out that Zapata actually had this guy kidnapped, and he
                      kept
                      > him by force in Morelos from that point on. When he was finally released, his family
                      sent
                      > him to a hospital in Texas in order to try and save his life, because of the damage to
                      his
                      > lower intestine due to (likely forced) anal sex. They were not successful in this and he
                      > died.
                      > >
                      > > Bryant
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Pancho Fedelin
                      > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 2:42 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002. Lot
                      > of good info.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: E Bryant Holman
                      > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
                      > > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to
                      > him.
                      > >
                      > > Bryant
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: hpd404
                      > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
                      > > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
                      > > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
                      > >
                      >
                    • E Bryant Holman
                      There was, apparantly, no reason for anyone to discuss this out in the open. The only reason we know about the nephew of don Porfiro being gay is that there
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There was, apparantly, no reason for anyone to discuss this out in the open. The only reason we know about the nephew of don Porfiro being gay is that there was famous incident that was so outrageous and monumental at the time that it actually led to the creation of a popular myth which, I think, practically no one knows the roots of. It seems that those who knew about don Porfirio's nephew tried to cover it up, but don Porfirio declared that he didn't care if anyone knew, so they published the fact.
                         
                        The incident was that police raided a private party where the attendees were gay, and half of them dressed in drag. They called them "the forty" because supposedly there were forty of them in attendence when the police got there. However, there were in actuality forty-one. Guadalupe Posada made a print of the scene, and you can find it in the Dover book of his artwork, among other places.
                         
                        The number 41 has now gone on to have a connection with homosexuality. What people do now is to tease a man when he reaches the age of 41, implying that he is now going to start chasing men instead of women. However, people who make this joke normally have no idea where the whole concept originated.
                         
                        Since being gay and letting people find out was a good way to get lynched or arrested during those times, I cannot for the life of me imagine how or why anything about Zapata would have been brought to the public's attention, and this would especially hold true once the Mexican government began promoting his myth. I think that anyone who tried to rain on their party at that point by publishing or even talking about something like that openly would not live very long. They invested a lot in creating his myth, and would not tolerate seeing it deconstructed in that way. Mexicans still have a rather unusual set of contradictions involving gays. For instance, they have lots of drag queens and just plain queens in a lot of their comedy on the television there. But they banned "Brokeback Mountain". The reason why is that the connection of being gay and macho things if taboo, as people find it extremely offensive. So, the notion that in Mexico there would be some "gay pride" angle of this Zapata story and that it would be exploited is just a complete impossibility. I suppose it is easy for Americans to imagine that Mexicans have the same understandings about these subjects as do Americans, but they do not.
                         
                        Bryant
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:41 PM
                        Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Emiliano Zapata

                        I remain skeptical. Working in journalism in a small town, I have years of experience with
                        things that people know for absolute certain that aren't so. What are the archival sources
                        that support the claims?

                        I'm surprised, if such exist, that they haven't been exploited by people with a lifestyle
                        agenda. A gay pride parade chanting Viva Zapata would be a sight to behold.

                        That said, I agree with you that mythologization has made it impossible to get at the
                        actual Zapata; people are indeed deeply emotionally attached to him as a symbol. It would
                        be interesting to see a truly dispassionate analysis of the Zapatista movement that deals
                        with what you describe as the distrusting coalition — a characterization that I think is
                        quite accurate.

                        I, too, have always thought the innuendo about Fierro was bunk. Seems to me to be one of
                        those sly manufactured ironies — this hyper masculine killer was actually a swish.

                        Interesting matters to kick around...

                        --- In MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@... > wrote:
                        >
                        > I do not think it is all that circumstantial. Osorio's witnesses stated this as a well-known
                        fact among persons who were related to some of the protagonists, which they declared to
                        him with absolute certainty. After that he actually looked into archival material that
                        substantiated the claims. That is how I believe this took place.
                        >
                        > I simply pointed out some other matters. It is not unusual at all for Mexican
                        homosexuals to put on a mask of machismo. In a place like Morelos at the time, to do
                        otherwise would be to risk being killed by anti-gay bigots, likely.
                        >
                        > I also think that one thing that has always retarded any efforts to deconstruct the myth
                        of Zapata is that people have so much emotional collateral invested in his myth that it
                        makes it difficult to see him as anything other than some mythical hero.
                        >
                        > The matter of the relationship with don Porfirio's nephew is more than just passing.
                        Zapata had been sentenced to be conscripted and to go to Yucatan to fight the incessant
                        rebellion there, and this was tantamount to a death sentence for him, and he was freed of
                        that by way of having to go serve Diaz's nephew as his personal horse trainer. These
                        circumstances made Zapata into practically the man's slave. So, later, Zapata had him
                        kidnapped and brought to him, where he spent the rest of the war, until he was liberated
                        at the end, probably by Abelardo Mangaña.
                        >
                        > Osorio, I know, would not state something as a fact unless he was quite sure this was
                        so, and his methods of scholarship are much more solid than any other Mexican historian
                        that I know of - including Krauze.
                        >
                        > Zapata, as a matter of a fact, was anything but a charismatic leader. He was a person
                        who rose to the top mainly because his rivals did not consider him to be a threat to their
                        little fiefdoms, and they formed a rather distrusting coalition out of the necessity of
                        survival, gradually conceding power to his command over the course of time, with some
                        partisan leaders keeping varying degrees of autonomy. For instance, the most
                        autonomous was probably Genovevo de la O, who I don't think ever allowed himself to be
                        ordered around by Zapata and his staff. Zapata had a bad habit of going off on a drunk
                        when the heat got the worst, and leaving things in the hands of his underlings. He could
                        never get enough ammunition together to fight a pitched battle, and he never capture any
                        really valuable military hardware form the enemy, such as trains or cannon or
                        machineguns, whereas Villa did it all the time, and pretty much held Zapata in scorn for
                        his lack of martial prowess and for his alcoholism.
                        >
                        > Zapata was artificially propped up into a mythical hero by the Mexican government
                        probably starting with Obregon (I am guessing) and especially later on under Cardenas, in
                        an attempt to displace the image of Villa in the popular mind of the lower classes. This
                        revisionism was helped along quite a bit due to the fact that the intellectuals who molded
                        modern Mexican thought in the post-revolution era were in Mexico city and many of them
                        had been involved with the zapatistas. Dr. Atl and his whole circle of sycophants came
                        from the group or radical intellectuals (of which Palafox was one, actually, as was Díaz
                        Soto y Gama) who fled Mexico City and went to Zapata for protection, and then made up
                        his general staff and secretarial staff (pretty much one in the same operation, actually). It
                        was actually Genovevo de la O who created the circumstances for these people, who had
                        been fighting openly with Carranza, to get in the good graces of Obregon and later on
                        parley their entree with the Mexican postrevolution government into the patronage that
                        they were to receive with the rise of the SEP and its appended institutions.
                        >
                        > So, in the process of all of these arrangements taking place, the mythmaking around the
                        person of Zapata developed.
                        >
                        > As far as Fierro, I don't think that is true. Villa would have been completely intolerant of
                        that, for one thing, and for another, if there were something worth investigating in that
                        regard, I would imagine that Osorio would have looked into it by now.
                        >
                        > By the way, Villa was certainly an obsessive womanizer, and the details are well
                        documented (the stories of the phony marriages are false, however). But I don't think that
                        there is much to the notion that Zapata did so much of that. Certainly he got drunk a lot,
                        but he didn't spend his time while he was drunk chasing women. If someone has some
                        documentation that demonstrates otherwise, I would be interested in seeing it.
                        >
                        > Maybe when John shows up - since he is going down to Chihuahua eventually -
                        according to his grandmother - we can get him to swing by and see Osorio and dig some
                        concrete material on these matters. Osorio still has the largest collection of Villa archival
                        material in the world.
                        >
                        > Bryant
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: rifleman1913
                        > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:42 PM
                        > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Emiliano Zapata
                        >
                        >
                        > This is all extremely circumstantial, in fact not evidentiary at all.
                        >
                        > Palofax was, indeed, widely known as an aggressive homosexual; that fact helped lead
                        to
                        > his downfall after his political star was eclipsed.
                        >
                        > Zapata's inaction to defend Montaño can be explained by his frequent inability to deal
                        > immediately and decisively with personnel conflicts and by Montaños apparent
                        wavering in
                        > his commitment to the cause. He appears to have been framed as a potential or actual
                        > turncoat. Treachery was one thing Zapata and all the revolutionary chiefs feared and
                        > despised (with obvious good reason).
                        >
                        > I can't speak to the implied relationship with Diaz's nephew. It takes more than
                        proximity
                        > to make a case.
                        >
                        > I think it unlikely that Zapata would have reached the prominence he did in a hyper-
                        macho
                        > culture and milieu if he had been homosexual - and everything I've heard or read
                        about
                        > him indicates that he was as prolific if not as flamboyant a womanizer as Villa.
                        >
                        > I suppose it is possible that he engaged in homosexual activity (not quite the same
                        thing
                        > as being a homosexual; witness prisoner populations) and it is true that the most
                        macho
                        > cultures look differently at the active and the passive partner in such actions; ie., one
                        > wouldn't necessarily lose status if one was the doer but one would never be respected
                        as a
                        > warrior leader as the do-ee.
                        >
                        > But overall, this strikes me as inuendo rather than evidence.
                        >
                        > BTW, I have heard and read similar musings about Rudolfo Fierro. Any thoughts on
                        that?
                        >
                        > --- In MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I don't think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio was
                        > interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about Obregon, and
                        these
                        > people mentioned in passing a matter that had surfaced and been repressed decades
                        ago,
                        > wherein doubts about Zatata's sexual orientation were brought into doubt. Osorio,
                        > naturally, elicited further details from his subjects and then went on to run down the
                        leads
                        > and get more facts on the subject.
                        > >
                        > > Just as a matter of looking at certain facts that are well known, the following might
                        be
                        > noted:
                        > >
                        > > Manuel Palafox, the accuser of Otilio E. Montaño, was without a shadow of a doubt
                        an
                        > aggressive homosexual - so much so that the fact that when he was kept under house
                        > arrest after his fall from grace, during with period he kept up with his reckless and
                        > obsessive advances on other men there at Zapatista staff headquarters, which he had
                        > formerly directed. The fact that Zapata seemed to turn a blind eye to all of this and
                        that
                        > seemed to be paralized about what to do (a typical reaction on his part) raised a lot of
                        > eyebrows then. Palafox eventually escaped and spent his time trying to capitalize on
                        the
                        > business of running down Zapata.
                        > >
                        > > Otilio E. Montaño was, in large measure, a victim of Palafox's obsessive
                        vindictiveness,
                        > and that was another thing that raised eyebrows about Zapata - how it was that he
                        stayed
                        > away from this disgraceful incident and simply let Palafox destroy the author of the
                        Plan
                        > de Ayala himself.
                        > >
                        > > Osorio pointed out some of the following items to me:
                        > >
                        > > Many of you will be familiar with the fact that Zapata was actually a professional
                        horse
                        > trainer and that his most important client was the nephew of Porfirio Diaz, who was a
                        > known homosexual. It turns out that Zapata actually had this guy kidnapped, and he
                        kept
                        > him by force in Morelos from that point on. When he was finally released, his family
                        sent
                        > him to a hospital in Texas in order to try and save his life, because of the damage to
                        his
                        > lower intestine due to (likely forced) anal sex. They were not successful in this and he
                        > died.
                        > >
                        > > Bryant
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Pancho Fedelin
                        > > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 2:42 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002. Lot
                        > of good info.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: E Bryant Holman
                        > > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
                        > > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked to
                        > him.
                        > >
                        > > Bryant
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: hpd404
                        > > To: MexicanRevolution@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
                        > > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
                        > > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        > > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
                        > >
                        >

                      • rifleman1913
                        I was thinking in terms of American gays adopting Zapata as an icon, not Mexicans. You are right that Mexicans do not have the same views of these things as
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 4, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I was thinking in terms of American gays adopting Zapata as an icon, not Mexicans. You
                          are right that Mexicans do not have the same views of these things as Americans.

                          Your story about the 41 brings up an interesting point that is often missed — the late 19th
                          and early 20th Century period was rife with trends that we associate with the 60s and
                          after: New Age-type spiritualism, extreme ecological beliefs, sexual experimentation and
                          "alternative" lifestyles.

                          A note on Brokeback Mountain: A cowboy I know didn't think it was all that ground-
                          breaking. Everybody knows about those sheep herders....

                          --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > There was, apparantly, no reason for anyone to discuss this out in the open. The only
                          reason we know about the nephew of don Porfiro being gay is that there was famous
                          incident that was so outrageous and monumental at the time that it actually led to the
                          creation of a popular myth which, I think, practically no one knows the roots of. It seems
                          that those who knew about don Porfirio's nephew tried to cover it up, but don Porfirio
                          declared that he didn't care if anyone knew, so they published the fact.
                          >
                          > The incident was that police raided a private party where the attendees were gay, and
                          half of them dressed in drag. They called them "the forty" because supposedly there were
                          forty of them in attendence when the police got there. However, there were in actuality
                          forty-one. Guadalupe Posada made a print of the scene, and you can find it in the Dover
                          book of his artwork, among other places.
                          >
                          > The number 41 has now gone on to have a connection with homosexuality. What people
                          do now is to tease a man when he reaches the age of 41, implying that he is now going to
                          start chasing men instead of women. However, people who make this joke normally have
                          no idea where the whole concept originated.
                          >
                          > Since being gay and letting people find out was a good way to get lynched or arrested
                          during those times, I cannot for the life of me imagine how or why anything about Zapata
                          would have been brought to the public's attention, and this would especially hold true
                          once the Mexican government began promoting his myth. I think that anyone who tried to
                          rain on their party at that point by publishing or even talking about something like that
                          openly would not live very long. They invested a lot in creating his myth, and would not
                          tolerate seeing it deconstructed in that way. Mexicans still have a rather unusual set of
                          contradictions involving gays. For instance, they have lots of drag queens and just plain
                          queens in a lot of their comedy on the television there. But they banned "Brokeback
                          Mountain". The reason why is that the connection of being gay and macho things if taboo,
                          as people find it extremely offensive. So, the notion that in Mexico there would be some
                          "gay pride" angle of this Zapata story and that it would be exploited is just a complete
                          impossibility. I suppose it is easy for Americans to imagine that Mexicans have the same
                          understandings about these subjects as do Americans, but they do not.
                          >
                          > Bryant
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: rifleman1913
                          > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:41 PM
                          > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Emiliano Zapata
                          >
                          >
                          > I remain skeptical. Working in journalism in a small town, I have years of experience
                          with
                          > things that people know for absolute certain that aren't so. What are the archival
                          sources
                          > that support the claims?
                          >
                          > I'm surprised, if such exist, that they haven't been exploited by people with a lifestyle
                          > agenda. A gay pride parade chanting Viva Zapata would be a sight to behold.
                          >
                          > That said, I agree with you that mythologization has made it impossible to get at the
                          > actual Zapata; people are indeed deeply emotionally attached to him as a symbol. It
                          would
                          > be interesting to see a truly dispassionate analysis of the Zapatista movement that
                          deals
                          > with what you describe as the distrusting coalition - a characterization that I think is
                          > quite accurate.
                          >
                          > I, too, have always thought the innuendo about Fierro was bunk. Seems to me to be
                          one of
                          > those sly manufactured ironies - this hyper masculine killer was actually a swish.
                          >
                          > Interesting matters to kick around...
                          >
                          > --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I do not think it is all that circumstantial. Osorio's witnesses stated this as a well-
                          known
                          > fact among persons who were related to some of the protagonists, which they declared
                          to
                          > him with absolute certainty. After that he actually looked into archival material that
                          > substantiated the claims. That is how I believe this took place.
                          > >
                          > > I simply pointed out some other matters. It is not unusual at all for Mexican
                          > homosexuals to put on a mask of machismo. In a place like Morelos at the time, to do
                          > otherwise would be to risk being killed by anti-gay bigots, likely.
                          > >
                          > > I also think that one thing that has always retarded any efforts to deconstruct the
                          myth
                          > of Zapata is that people have so much emotional collateral invested in his myth that it
                          > makes it difficult to see him as anything other than some mythical hero.
                          > >
                          > > The matter of the relationship with don Porfirio's nephew is more than just passing.
                          > Zapata had been sentenced to be conscripted and to go to Yucatan to fight the
                          incessant
                          > rebellion there, and this was tantamount to a death sentence for him, and he was freed
                          of
                          > that by way of having to go serve Diaz's nephew as his personal horse trainer. These
                          > circumstances made Zapata into practically the man's slave. So, later, Zapata had him
                          > kidnapped and brought to him, where he spent the rest of the war, until he was
                          liberated
                          > at the end, probably by Abelardo Mangaña.
                          > >
                          > > Osorio, I know, would not state something as a fact unless he was quite sure this
                          was
                          > so, and his methods of scholarship are much more solid than any other Mexican
                          historian
                          > that I know of - including Krauze.
                          > >
                          > > Zapata, as a matter of a fact, was anything but a charismatic leader. He was a person
                          > who rose to the top mainly because his rivals did not consider him to be a threat to
                          their
                          > little fiefdoms, and they formed a rather distrusting coalition out of the necessity of
                          > survival, gradually conceding power to his command over the course of time, with
                          some
                          > partisan leaders keeping varying degrees of autonomy. For instance, the most
                          > autonomous was probably Genovevo de la O, who I don't think ever allowed himself to
                          be
                          > ordered around by Zapata and his staff. Zapata had a bad habit of going off on a drunk
                          > when the heat got the worst, and leaving things in the hands of his underlings. He
                          could
                          > never get enough ammunition together to fight a pitched battle, and he never capture
                          any
                          > really valuable military hardware form the enemy, such as trains or cannon or
                          > machineguns, whereas Villa did it all the time, and pretty much held Zapata in scorn
                          for
                          > his lack of martial prowess and for his alcoholism.
                          > >
                          > > Zapata was artificially propped up into a mythical hero by the Mexican government
                          > probably starting with Obregon (I am guessing) and especially later on under Cardenas,
                          in
                          > an attempt to displace the image of Villa in the popular mind of the lower classes. This
                          > revisionism was helped along quite a bit due to the fact that the intellectuals who
                          molded
                          > modern Mexican thought in the post-revolution era were in Mexico city and many of
                          them
                          > had been involved with the zapatistas. Dr. Atl and his whole circle of sycophants came
                          > from the group or radical intellectuals (of which Palafox was one, actually, as was Díaz
                          > Soto y Gama) who fled Mexico City and went to Zapata for protection, and then made
                          up
                          > his general staff and secretarial staff (pretty much one in the same operation, actually).
                          It
                          > was actually Genovevo de la O who created the circumstances for these people, who
                          had
                          > been fighting openly with Carranza, to get in the good graces of Obregon and later on
                          > parley their entree with the Mexican postrevolution government into the patronage
                          that
                          > they were to receive with the rise of the SEP and its appended institutions.
                          > >
                          > > So, in the process of all of these arrangements taking place, the mythmaking around
                          the
                          > person of Zapata developed.
                          > >
                          > > As far as Fierro, I don't think that is true. Villa would have been completely intolerant
                          of
                          > that, for one thing, and for another, if there were something worth investigating in that
                          > regard, I would imagine that Osorio would have looked into it by now.
                          > >
                          > > By the way, Villa was certainly an obsessive womanizer, and the details are well
                          > documented (the stories of the phony marriages are false, however). But I don't think
                          that
                          > there is much to the notion that Zapata did so much of that. Certainly he got drunk a
                          lot,
                          > but he didn't spend his time while he was drunk chasing women. If someone has some
                          > documentation that demonstrates otherwise, I would be interested in seeing it.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe when John shows up - since he is going down to Chihuahua eventually -
                          > according to his grandmother - we can get him to swing by and see Osorio and dig
                          some
                          > concrete material on these matters. Osorio still has the largest collection of Villa
                          archival
                          > material in the world.
                          > >
                          > > Bryant
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: rifleman1913
                          > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:42 PM
                          > > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Re: Emiliano Zapata
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > This is all extremely circumstantial, in fact not evidentiary at all.
                          > >
                          > > Palofax was, indeed, widely known as an aggressive homosexual; that fact helped
                          lead
                          > to
                          > > his downfall after his political star was eclipsed.
                          > >
                          > > Zapata's inaction to defend Montaño can be explained by his frequent inability to
                          deal
                          > > immediately and decisively with personnel conflicts and by Montaños apparent
                          > wavering in
                          > > his commitment to the cause. He appears to have been framed as a potential or
                          actual
                          > > turncoat. Treachery was one thing Zapata and all the revolutionary chiefs feared and
                          > > despised (with obvious good reason).
                          > >
                          > > I can't speak to the implied relationship with Diaz's nephew. It takes more than
                          > proximity
                          > > to make a case.
                          > >
                          > > I think it unlikely that Zapata would have reached the prominence he did in a hyper-
                          > macho
                          > > culture and milieu if he had been homosexual - and everything I've heard or read
                          > about
                          > > him indicates that he was as prolific if not as flamboyant a womanizer as Villa.
                          > >
                          > > I suppose it is possible that he engaged in homosexual activity (not quite the same
                          > thing
                          > > as being a homosexual; witness prisoner populations) and it is true that the most
                          > macho
                          > > cultures look differently at the active and the passive partner in such actions; ie., one
                          > > wouldn't necessarily lose status if one was the doer but one would never be
                          respected
                          > as a
                          > > warrior leader as the do-ee.
                          > >
                          > > But overall, this strikes me as inuendo rather than evidence.
                          > >
                          > > BTW, I have heard and read similar musings about Rudolfo Fierro. Any thoughts on
                          > that?
                          > >
                          > > --- In MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com, "E Bryant Holman" <bryanth@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't think that there has been much if anything published about this. Osorio
                          was
                          > > interviewing a family in Sinaloa regarding, I think, something about Obregon, and
                          > these
                          > > people mentioned in passing a matter that had surfaced and been repressed
                          decades
                          > ago,
                          > > wherein doubts about Zatata's sexual orientation were brought into doubt. Osorio,
                          > > naturally, elicited further details from his subjects and then went on to run down the
                          > leads
                          > > and get more facts on the subject.
                          > > >
                          > > > Just as a matter of looking at certain facts that are well known, the following might
                          > be
                          > > noted:
                          > > >
                          > > > Manuel Palafox, the accuser of Otilio E. Montaño, was without a shadow of a doubt
                          > an
                          > > aggressive homosexual - so much so that the fact that when he was kept under
                          house
                          > > arrest after his fall from grace, during with period he kept up with his reckless and
                          > > obsessive advances on other men there at Zapatista staff headquarters, which he had
                          > > formerly directed. The fact that Zapata seemed to turn a blind eye to all of this and
                          > that
                          > > seemed to be paralized about what to do (a typical reaction on his part) raised a lot
                          of
                          > > eyebrows then. Palafox eventually escaped and spent his time trying to capitalize on
                          > the
                          > > business of running down Zapata.
                          > > >
                          > > > Otilio E. Montaño was, in large measure, a victim of Palafox's obsessive
                          > vindictiveness,
                          > > and that was another thing that raised eyebrows about Zapata - how it was that he
                          > stayed
                          > > away from this disgraceful incident and simply let Palafox destroy the author of the
                          > Plan
                          > > de Ayala himself.
                          > > >
                          > > > Osorio pointed out some of the following items to me:
                          > > >
                          > > > Many of you will be familiar with the fact that Zapata was actually a professional
                          > horse
                          > > trainer and that his most important client was the nephew of Porfirio Diaz, who was
                          a
                          > > known homosexual. It turns out that Zapata actually had this guy kidnapped, and he
                          > kept
                          > > him by force in Morelos from that point on. When he was finally released, his family
                          > sent
                          > > him to a hospital in Texas in order to try and save his life, because of the damage to
                          > his
                          > > lower intestine due to (likely forced) anal sex. They were not successful in this and
                          he
                          > > died.
                          > > >
                          > > > Bryant
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: Pancho Fedelin
                          > > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 2:42 PM
                          > > > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks for the reply. Have started going back thru the archives starting in 2002.
                          Lot
                          > > of good info.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: E Bryant Holman
                          > > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 14:15
                          > > > Subject: Re: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I have. I think it is true, according to what Dr. Osorio told me the last time I talked
                          to
                          > > him.
                          > > >
                          > > > Bryant
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: hpd404
                          > > > To: MexicanRevolution@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:54 AM
                          > > > Subject: [MexicanRevolution] Emiliano Zapata
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I was talking to a friend of mine from Mexico about this site.
                          > > > He said that Zapata was homosexual. Anybody heard this before?
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
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                          > > > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
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