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Hierarchy, Rabbis and Pastors

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  • misael460
    Luke 22:25- 26 The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who excersice authority over them are called benefactors. But not so among
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 3, 2005
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      Luke 22:25- 26
      The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
      excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
      " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
      let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.

      I been thinking alot about this verse. Their should not be a
      hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
      same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
      church. I believe all believers have a right to disagree and
      question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or
      church.

      Matthew 23:28
      " But you, do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
      Christ, and you are all brethren.
      " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
      He who is in heaven".

      Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
      shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect believers
      who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
      title to bring to themselves honor.

      I would really appreciate son feedback.
    • zoom1973
      I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the problem sometimes seems
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 5, 2005
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        I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a
        church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the
        problem sometimes seems as if he is the head of the body without
        question and that he is the center of all attention. its like no one
        can move on Gods word without him, etc. i want to do right according
        to Gods word. how should we view these positions and heiarchys? can
        we question things? i remember as a child and young man being able
        to ask many questions in bible studies but i have noticed that the
        older you get the less questions you can ask without looking like
        you are disrespecting authority. wonderful subject.


        "misael460" ...> wrote:
        > Luke 22:25- 26
        > The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
        > excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
        > " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
        > let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
        >
        > I been thinking alot about this verse. Their should not be a
        > hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
        > same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
        > church. I believe all believers have a right to disagree and
        > question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or church.
        >
        > Matthew 23:28
        > " But you, do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
        > Christ, and you are all brethren.
        > " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
        > He who is in heaven".
        >
        > Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
        > shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect
        believers
        > who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
        > title to bring to themselves honor.
        >
        > I would really appreciate son feedback.
      • Dr Rick
        Hey Zoom: In my opinion, as a pastor, I don t think asking questions should be a problem. Not everyone is in the same place at the same time. Even I learn from
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 5, 2005
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          Hey Zoom:
           
          In my opinion, as a pastor, I don't think asking questions should be a problem. Not everyone is in the same place at the same time. Even I learn from the most basic questions folks ask. One never knows the results of questions, some have opened discussions that have enriched us all.
           
          Some one once said, "there are no dumb questions, but often dumb answers. That related to the Emcee putting down a question, probably didn't really kow the answer, .
           
          Rick
          VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVv

          zoom1973 <zoom1973@...> wrote:

          I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a
          church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the
          problem sometimes seems as if he is the head of the body without
          question and that he is the center of all attention. its like no one
          can move on Gods word without him, etc. i want to do right according
          to Gods word. how should we view these positions and heiarchys? can
          we question things? i remember as a child and young man being able
          to ask many questions in bible studies but i have noticed that the
          older you get the less questions you can ask without looking like
          you are disrespecting authority. wonderful subject.


          "misael460" ...> wrote:
          >   Luke 22:25- 26
          > The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
          > excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
          > " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
          > let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
          >
          > I been thinking  alot about this verse. Their should not be a
          > hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
          > same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
          > church. I believe all believers  have a right to disagree and
          > question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or church.

          > Matthew 23:28
          >  " But you, do  not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
          > Christ, and you are all brethren.
          > " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
          > He who is in heaven".
          >
          > Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
          > shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect
          believers
          > who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
          > title to bring to themselves honor.
          >
          > I would really appreciate son feedback.
        • eduardo munoz
          Well Im glad you are interested. I m going through a trial at my church and your comments might help. 1Pe 5:3 not as exercising lordship over those allotted to
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 5, 2005
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            Well Im glad you are interested. I'm going through a trial at my church and your comments might help.

            1Pe 5:3

            not as exercising lordship over those allotted to you, but being impressions to the flock.
            this is the Messianic renewed coventant bible I use this version because I have it on e sword and i can just copy and paste. The king james version has some numbers on it and its hard to read.( you can use the king james)
             
            Well in this verse It shows that the pastors should not  excersice lordship over the flock but be examples to them or as verse states impression.
             
            If you keep on reading it also says the young should sumit to their pastor or elders.
              the problem is when they take advantage of this position.(we got to keep our eyes open)

            1Ti 5:17

            Let the3588 elders4245 that rule4291 well2573 be counted worthy515 of double1362 honor,5092 especially3122 they who labor2872 in1722 the word3056 and2532 doctrine.1319

            I believe according to this scripture that pastors should not rule the church alone but need Elders too to help them make decisions.

            Act 15:6

            And1161 the3588 apostles652 and2532 elders4245 came together4863 for to consider1492 of4012 this5127 matter.3056

            Act 15:7

            And1161 when there had been1096 much4183 disputing,4803 Peter4074 rose up,450 and said2036 unto4314 them,846 Men435 and brethren,80 ye5210 know1987 how that3754 a good while ago575, 744, 2250 God2316 made choice1586 among1722 us,2254 that the3588 Gentiles1484 by1223 my3450 mouth4750 should hear191 the3588 word3056 of the3588

            I believe that you have a rigth to speak out and this discuss things according to this scripture they were discussing  a  controversial theological question.

            but I believe some questions specially very critical ones should be dealt with mature christians and not just  with the opinion of one person but others. Like elders and Bishops together.


            zoom1973 <zoom1973@...> wrote:

            I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a
            church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the
            problem sometimes seems as if he is the head of the body without
            question and that he is the center of all attention. its like no one
            can move on Gods word without him, etc. i want to do right according
            to Gods word. how should we view these positions and heiarchys? can
            we question things? i remember as a child and young man being able
            to ask many questions in bible studies but i have noticed that the
            older you get the less questions you can ask without looking like
            you are disrespecting authority. wonderful subject.


            "misael460" ...> wrote:
            >   Luke 22:25- 26
            > The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
            > excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
            > " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
            > let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
            >
            > I been thinking  alot about this verse. Their should not be a
            > hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
            > same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
            > church. I believe all believers  have a right to disagree and
            > question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or church.

            > Matthew 23:28
            >  " But you, do  not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
            > Christ, and you are all brethren.
            > " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
            > He who is in heaven".
            >
            > Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
            > shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect
            believers
            > who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
            > title to bring to themselves honor.
            >
            > I would really appreciate son feedback.
          • Dr Rick
            The King James numbers refer to Strong s Concordance references which give the Hebrew /Greek word meanings. Rick
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 6, 2005
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              The King James numbers refer to Strong's Concordance references which give the Hebrew /Greek word meanings.
              Rick
              vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

              eduardo munoz <misael460@...> wrote:
              Well Im glad you are interested. I'm going through a trial at my church and your comments might help.

              1Pe 5:3

              not as exercising lordship over those allotted to you, but being impressions to the flock.
              this is the Messianic renewed coventant bible I use this version because I have it on e sword and i can just copy and paste. The king james version has some numbers on it and its hard to read.( you can use the king james)
               
              Well in this verse It shows that the pastors should not  excersice lordship over the flock but be examples to them or as verse states impression.
               
              If you keep on reading it also says the young should sumit to their pastor or elders.
                the problem is when they take advantage of this position.(we got to keep our eyes open)

              1Ti 5:17

              Let the3588 elders4245 that rule4291 well2573 be counted worthy515 of double1362 honor,5092 especially3122 they who labor2872 in1722 the word3056 and2532 doctrine.1319

              I believe according to this scripture that pastors should not rule the church alone but need Elders too to help them make decisions.

              Act 15:6

              And1161 the3588 apostles652 and2532 elders4245 came together4863 for to consider1492 of4012 this5127 matter.3056

              Act 15:7

              And1161 when there had been1096 much4183 disputing,4803 Peter4074 rose up,450 and said2036 unto4314 them,846 Men435 and brethren,80 ye5210 know1987 how that3754 a good while ago575, 744, 2250 God2316 made choice1586 among1722 us,2254 that the3588 Gentiles1484 by1223 my3450 mouth4750 should hear191 the3588 word3056 of the3588

              I believe that you have a rigth to speak out and this discuss things according to this scripture they were discussing  a  controversial theological question.

              but I believe some questions specially very critical ones should be dealt with mature christians and not just  with the opinion of one person but others. Like elders and Bishops together.


              zoom1973 <zoom1973@...> wrote:

              I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a
              church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the
              problem sometimes seems as if he is the head of the body without
              question and that he is the center of all attention. its like no one
              can move on Gods word without him, etc. i want to do right according
              to Gods word. how should we view these positions and heiarchys? can
              we question things? i remember as a child and young man being able
              to ask many questions in bible studies but i have noticed that the
              older you get the less questions you can ask without looking like
              you are disrespecting authority. wonderful subject.


              "misael460" ...> wrote:
              >   Luke 22:25- 26
              > The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
              > excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
              > " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
              > let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
              >
              > I been thinking  alot about this verse. Their should not be a
              > hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
              > same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
              > church. I believe all believers  have a right to disagree and
              > question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or church.

              > Matthew 23:28
              >  " But you, do  not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
              > Christ, and you are all brethren.
              > " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
              > He who is in heaven".
              >
              > Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
              > shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect
              believers
              > who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
              > title to bring to themselves honor.
              >
              > I would really appreciate son feedback.
            • aKAYb
              Hello Zoom,,, Yes, that happns in a lot of churches,, the upc church i use to attend, the people act like they worship the pastor, they give him special
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 8, 2005
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                Hello Zoom,,,
                Yes, that happns in a lot of churches,, the upc church i use to attend, the people act like they worship the pastor, they give him special praise, they honor him as tho he was Jesus walking in on the platform,
                when i had first started going there it didn't seem to be so bad, but after a couple years, it got to be more like worship than just respect, and it didn't matter what he did or said every one went along with it,
                and if or when i questioned something being done, it was explained or excused away,, without a real reason , and definately not with a biblical reason, or scriptures to back it up.. they would basically say that we are to honor our leaders in the church.
                OK, so we are to give them a certain amount of respect or honor,, but it should never ever seem as though we are worshiping that person, And what bothers me a lot is it seems to have spread throughout all religions, and all of mankind, in whatever they do, giving more respect and honor to different ones because of the position they hold,, It really sickens me,,
                Anyway ,, this is just my opinion,, and not really worth much at all,, cause no one holds me up with respect ,, i'm just the scum on the soles of shoes,, << honestly the way i feel,,
                AleiaKay,




                The Anchor Holds in the Midst of the Storm, HalleluYahh, ana ahebek AbbaYahh, The Solid Rock, The Sure Foundation, The Loving Saviour, The Blessed Redeemer, The Alpha & Omega, John,17:3, The Only True Elohiym, Abba Yahweh, & His Holy Only Begotten Son Yahwesha' , my Saviour / Redeemer , Glory and Honor to the Lamb of Yahweh,

                --- On Wed 01/05, zoom1973 < zoom1973@... > wrote:

                From: zoom1973 [mailto: zoom1973@...]
                To: Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:15:03 -0000
                Subject: [Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Hierarchy, Rabbis and Pastors


                I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a
                church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the
                problem sometimes seems as if he is the head of the body without
                question and that he is the center of all attention. its like no one
                can move on Gods word without him, etc. i want to do right according
                to Gods word. how should we view these positions and heiarchys? can
                we question things? i remember as a child and young man being able
                to ask many questions in bible studies but i have noticed that the
                older you get the less questions you can ask without looking like
                you are disrespecting authority. wonderful subject.


                "misael460" ...> wrote:
                > Luke 22:25- 26
                > The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
                > excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
                > " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
                > let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
                >
                > I been thinking alot about this verse. Their should not be a
                > hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
                > same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
                > church. I believe all believers have a right to disagree and
                > question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or church.
                >
                > Matthew 23:28
                > " But you, do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
                > Christ, and you are all brethren.
                > " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
                > He who is in heaven".
                >
                > Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
                > shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect
                believers
                > who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
                > title to bring to themselves honor.
                >
                > I would really appreciate son feedback.
              • Karynthana@aol.com
                Interesting thoughts and comments---I too was a part of a church /actually a television ministry where the pastor was worshipped . It took me a while to
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 9, 2005
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                     Interesting thoughts and comments---I too was a part of a church /actually a television ministry where the pastor was "worshipped". It took me a while to recognize it but when I did ---I left ! 
                     I could not /would not have a pastor I did not respect. I can remember churches who had a "golf ministry" basically a day on the greens with the pastor---and that is difficult for me but, then again I do not golf.
                     The pastor/rabbi was not the person you went to if you needed to assemble a swing set or dollhouse yet I went to one while my son was still just a toddler and asked him detailed questions about raising kids. He was awesome and so filled with wisdom.
                     My father (who also is a licensed pastor) seemed to always get the woebegones knocking on our door. But, knowing this he was always one step ahead of them and they were thrilled when he knew where to find a place for them to stay after we fed them and filled a box with food.
                   
                  Pastors/rabbis are a blessing and most times don't get the honor they deserve--
                   
                  Laura J (Karynthana)
                • Dr Rick
                  Hi AleiaKay, Don t feel bad or put yourself down. Yeshua told the people Do as they, the Pharisees, say, but don t do as they do , meaning listen to the
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 12, 2005
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                    Hi AleiaKay,

                    Don't feel bad or put yourself down. Yeshua told the people "Do as they, the Pharisees, say, but don't do as they do", meaning listen to the "word" they preach but do not follow the way they live. In another place He told the people that some folks love to gain attention for themselves by putting on 'airs' of holiness, alot of church leaders and 'their' followers are like that.

                    AleiaKay, just keep on being Berean and live Messiach in your own life, as your light shines others may also see the deception Yeshua spoke about in Matthew 24 re: 'False Teachers'.

                    HTH,

                    Rick

                    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv



                    aKAYb <a521b8@...> wrote:
                    Hello Zoom,,,
                    Yes, that happns in a lot of churches,, the upc church i use to attend, the people act like they worship the pastor, they give him special praise, they honor him as tho he was Jesus walking in on the platform,
                    when i had first started going there it didn't seem to be so bad, but after a couple years, it got to be more like worship than just respect, and it didn't matter what he did or said every one went along with it,
                    and if or when i questioned something being done, it was explained or excused away,, without a real reason , and definately not with a biblical reason, or scriptures to back it up.. they would basically say that we are to honor our leaders in the church.
                    OK, so we are to give them a certain amount of respect or honor,, but it should never ever seem as though we are worshiping that person, And what bothers me a lot is it seems to have spread throughout all religions, and all of mankind, in whatever they do, giving more respect and honor to different ones because of the position they hold,, It really sickens me,,
                    Anyway ,, this is just my opinion,, and not really worth much at all,, cause no one holds me up with respect ,, i'm just the scum on the soles of shoes,, << honestly the way i feel,,
                    AleiaKay,




                    The Anchor Holds in the Midst of the Storm, HalleluYahh, ana ahebek AbbaYahh, The Solid Rock, The Sure Foundation, The Loving Saviour, The Blessed Redeemer, The Alpha & Omega, John,17:3, The Only True Elohiym, Abba Yahweh, & His Holy Only Begotten Son Yahwesha' , my Saviour / Redeemer , Glory and Honor to the Lamb of Yahweh,

                    --- On Wed 01/05, zoom1973 < zoom1973@... > wrote:

                    From: zoom1973 [mailto: zoom1973@...]
                    To: Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:15:03 -0000
                    Subject: [Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Hierarchy, Rabbis and Pastors


                    I would also love to know more about this subject. i come from a
                    church where the pastor is deeply respected by all including me. the
                    problem sometimes seems as if he is the head of the body without
                    question and that he is the center of all attention. its like no one
                    can move on Gods word without him, etc. i want to do right according
                    to Gods word. how should we view these positions and heiarchys? can
                    we question things? i remember as a child and young man being able
                    to ask many questions in bible studies but i have noticed that the
                    older you get the less questions you can ask without looking like
                    you are disrespecting authority. wonderful subject.


                    "misael460" ...> wrote:
                    > Luke 22:25- 26
                    > The kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them, and those who
                    > excersice authority over them are called benefactors.
                    > " But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greater among you
                    > let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
                    >
                    > I been thinking alot about this verse. Their should not be a
                    > hierarchy in the church or congregations. That all belivers are the
                    > same. That Pastors or Rabbis are not above other members of the
                    > church. I believe all believers have a right to disagree and
                    > question whith HUMILIY about certain things in a congregation or church.
                    >
                    > Matthew 23:28
                    > " But you, do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, the
                    > Christ, and you are all brethren.
                    > " Do not call anyone on Earth your father; for one is your father,
                    > He who is in heaven".
                    >
                    > Why do belivers call other believers Rabbi or Pastors when Jesus
                    > shows us here that we should only glory in him. I respect
                    believers
                    > who call themselves Rabbi and Pastors but I seen some who use that
                    > title to bring to themselves honor.
                    >
                    > I would really appreciate son feedback.
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