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[Messianic_Apologetic] Miracles only Messiah would perform

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  • moriorty@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/18/01 7:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Wits responds: The only problem with your assertion is that you assume that Dan is referring
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 19, 2001
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      In a message dated 11/18/01 7:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, LouRugg777@... writes:


      <<
      > Bar Kochba died before accomplishing all the Messianic prophecies so it
      > stands to reason he wasn't the Messiah.
      >

      So did Yeshua....
      now... what was the question???

      LouRugg777 responds: When Yeshua returns with the clouds of heaven (Da
      7:13-14, Rev 19:11-16), he will fulfill all that he did not fulfill when he
      was here two thousand years ago.
      ���Hopefully, when they look upon him who was pierced (Zech 12:10), they
      will then understand


      Wits responds: The only problem with your assertion is that you assume that Dan is referring to a "second coming" I would be most interested what in Dan 7 leads someone to think that this is talking about a second coming. Are there any special words used that lead you in that direction. If so please point them out to me.
      Also Zech 12:10 says that "they shall look to ME because of those that were peirced".That is what the hebrew says. If that is not correct please post a linear translation of the verse.
    • Schmuel
      Shalom Messianic_Apologetic, Moriorty responds: If you may be so kind as to post which tractate and page you are quoting from the talmud. Thank you also a new
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 20, 2001
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        Shalom Messianic_Apologetic,

        Moriorty responds: If you may be so kind as to post which tractate and page you are quoting from the talmud. Thank you

        also a new post moved here...

        Jovial" <toika@...>
        So WHERE is this discussion located in the Talmud?
        Joe

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        Hi folks, here we go....
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        Soncino Talmud
        Sanhedrin 93B ..

                 The Messiah-as it is written, And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge of the fear of the Lord. And shall make him of quick understanding [wa-hariho] in the fear of the Lord. (12) R. Alexandri said: This teaches that he loaded him with good deeds and suffering as a mill[is laden]. (13) Raba said: He smells [a man] and judges, (14) as it is written, and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears, yet with righteousness shall he judge the poor. (15)

                 (Bar Koziba (16) reigned two and a half years, and then said to the Rabbis, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They answered, ‘Of Messiah it is written that he smells and judges: let us see whether he [Bar Koziba] can do so.’ When they saw that he was unable to judge by the scent, they slew him.)

        (12) Isa. XI, 2f.
        (13) This is a play of words on ujhrvu (wa-hariho) and ohhjhr (rehayyim).
        (14) Thereby definitely knowing whether he is guilty or innocent. ujhrvu is thus derived from jhr reah, smell.
        (15) Ibid. 3f. Since he uses neither his eyes nor his ears, he must judge through his sense of smell.
        (16) Bar Koziba was the leader of the third war against Rome in the reign of Hadrian, which terminated disastrously at Bethar (132-135 C.E.). Many scholars believe that this name was derived from Chezib (Gen. XXXVIII, 5) or Chozeba (I Chron. IV, 22). Others believe that it means ‘Son of Lies,’ bestowed upon him after the tremendous defeat which he sustained, and on account of his alleged claims to be the Messiah. Probably, however, Kozeba was an actual patronym, which was thus disparagingly applied to him (Lam. R. II, 2). He is also referred to as Bar Cochba, but this was certainly merely because R. Akiba applied to him the verse, There shall come a star (kokab) out of Jacob (Num. XXIV, 17). The revolt met with initial success, and Bar Koziba maintained his independence for some time. [Our sources do not agree as to the length of his reign, varying between two and a half years as in our text, and three and a half (so Seder ‘Olam according to reading of Dei Rossi). Derenbourg, Essai (v. pp. 413 and 431) gives preference to the period given in the Talmud. Graetz, Geschichte iv, 418, accepts three and a half years as the total duration of the war, but gives only one year to the actual siege of Bethar. It is nevertheless possible that the last year, marking the disastrous siege of Bethar, was omitted in the Talmudic statement on the length of his ‘reign.’]

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        ...now there may also be additional commentary on this Talmud passage in other writings,
          dunno about that :-)
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        schmuel writes:

        the question was miracles that Messiah would perform..

        You could see it in the subject line if you didn't want to
        backthread...

        Gerald tried to deflect the fact that the Talmud specifically
        talks about a test for the miraculous from Bar Kochba by
        the rabbis... likely because that Talmud passage simply does
        not square with the "new Judaism" which states that Messiah
        will simply be an ordinary man, with no supernatural elements
        involved in his birth or his life .... (those of us on Paltalk
        have heard this a whole bunch.. lol :-)

        btw, I beleive the Talmud says that Bar Kochba failed the test
        and was executed by the rabbis, I sometimes ask Traditional Jews
        whether they believe that is a true story, I have gotten
        yeses and noses ("allegorical, metaphorical..etc")

        Come to think of it, it is also interesting as it does show
        a rabbinical willingness to execute those whom they
        consider a "false Messiah" .... hmmmmm ...
        even putting aside the "blasphemy" or "Deity" issues....

        ................. (buzzz.....hadn't thought of that before)
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        Schmuel@... 

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