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Daniel 3:25-26 the fourth is like the Son of God

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  • Schmuel
    Hi Messianic_Apologetic, Shabbat Shalom to Y all, (Again, holla if I lose ya with the color html stuff, I will *really* figger out a good way to deal with it,
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 12, 2001
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      Hi Messianic_Apologetic,
       
        Shabbat Shalom to Y'all,

      (Again, holla if I lose ya with the color html stuff, I will *really* figger out a good
       way to deal with it, even if we have a second forum with the same info. but no HTML)

             We have had a lull, lost a few folks .. will reinvite them :-)
             ....gained a few in the meanwhile..
             And hopefully, will have one or two very well informed brethren joining shortly...

             Meanwhile, I squashed a couple of long proposed posts that have nothing direct to do
      with this forum .. (oops, sorry folks :-)

             I saw an issue raised that I would like to research, from a skeptic..

      Dan 3:25-26
      He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the
      midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth
      is like the Son of God." (KJV)

      "The Jewish oral tradition has always been that 3:25 simply referred to
        an angel." was asserted

      Anybody have the Talmudic or other rabbinical commentary on this ?

      We were also discussing the translation issue, too...

      Again .. Shabbat Shalom .. let's use this forum for its intended purpose :-)
    • Schmuel
      Hi Messianic Apologetic, Talmid Ben --- welcome -- sent this response to me and has joined the forum .. I have taken the liberty to post it to the forum :-) I
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 16, 2001
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        Hi Messianic Apologetic,

        Talmid Ben --- welcome -- sent this response to me and has joined the forum ..
        I have taken the liberty to post it to the forum :-)
        I add at the bottom an additional answer I gave to the errancyn forum...

        (Again, holla to me at schmuel@... if I lose ya with the color html stuff,
         I will *really* figger out a good way to deal with it...
         ...even if we have a second forum with the same info. but no HTML)


        ***********************
        Talmid Ben:...
         
        Here is the Midrash (which is after the Christian era, and contains an apologetic against the Christians, but is interesting . . .)

        When Nebuchadnezzar the king was alarmed, and rose up in haste; he spoke and said... Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire... and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of God (Dan. III, 24 f) 1 R. Phinehas said in the name of R. Reuben: At that moment the angel Michael came down and struck him on his mouth, saying: ' Wretch, miserable mortal! Has God a son? Take back your words.� He thereupon retracted and said: Nebuchadnezzar spoke and said: Blessed be the God of Shadrach (ib. 28). Now it does not go on, �Who sent his son,� but Who hath sent His angel, and delivered His servants that trusted in Him.
        Shir HaShirim Rabbah 7:15, Soncino Press Edition
        TalmidBenjamin  webservant  http://www.MessianicArt.com/
        Troubled by an "Anti-Missionary"? CHAZAK! (Be Strong!)
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        http://www.MessianicArt.com/chazak.htm  or  http://www.chazak.org/
         
        Schmuel
        Hi Messianic_Apologetic,

               I saw an issue raised that I would like to research, from a skeptic..
        Dan 3:25-26
        He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the
        midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth
        is like the Son of God." (KJV)

        "The Jewish oral tradition has always been that 3:25 simply referred to
          an angel." was asserted

        Anybody have the Talmudic or other rabbinical commentary on this ?

        We were also discussing the translation issue, too...
        ******************************************************
        Here is more from the errrancy dialog :-) slightly edited
        JW (skeptic)
        Why do you think the proper understanding of 3:25 was lost until several
        thousand years later when the KJV was created?
        Schmuel (showing that statement to be false, in addition to the midrash)

        Athanasius (373 AD) wrote:
        Who is this "Well-beloved" but the Only-begotten Son?
        As also in the hundred and ninth, "From the womb I begat Thee before
        the morning star," concerning which I shall speak afterwards; and in
        the Proverbs, "Before the hills He begat me;" and in Daniel, "And the
        form of the Fourth is like the Son of God;" and many others. If then
        from the Old be ancientness, ancient must be the Son, who is clearly
        described in the Old Testament in many places.
        (Four Discourses Against The Arians, IV:24)

        ***
        Back to the singular/plural issue...

        Many many other translations and texts agree with the singular ....
        (e.g. Old Latin, Greek Septuagint ..) and even .. the modern
          Tenakh JPS ...translates a singular "divine being" ..

         ... as you hopefully know Elohim's being singular or plural depends
             on accompanying verbs, person, and context
          ... other im ending words. .eg. mayim (water-s) hashamayim (heaven-s)
                 are similar
        Most every time in Tenakh Elohim is singular with about four exceptions..

        Shalom y'all for now..



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