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[Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Where's Jesus in the Hebrew Bible without assumptions?

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  • Joseph Mendson
    Hi Robert What is in a name? I don t believe that because one is named as such or such, will influence the character of that person, or mean anything other
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 27, 2008
      Hi Robert
       
      What is in a name? I don't believe that because one is named as such or such, will influence the character of that person, or mean anything other than just a name.
       
      Now, regarding the word Messiah, the meaning is anointed; and you will find Israel being the anointed one in I Chronicles 16:13,22.
       
      Moreover, for the name Messiah applied to Jesus, you have to consider when it was applied and by whom: Till about 30 years after Jesus' death no one had ever heard that Jesus had been the Messiah. Proof of it is in the fact that when Paul showed up in Jerusalem 30 years after Jesus' death, preaching about him as the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, he caused such a havoc the the Jews wanted to kill him. Mind you that Jerusalem had been the headquarters for the Sect of the Nazarenes for more than 30 years, and they were getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism. Therefore, Paul was the one who fabricated the idea that Jesus was the Messiah.
       
      Ben
      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Burris <fossil24@...> wrote:
      From: Robert Burris <fossil24@...>
      Subject: [Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Where's Jesus in the Hebrew Bible without assumptions?
      To: Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 10:26 AM

      Let's proceed with baby steps.

      What does the name Jesus mean? (What was his Hebrew name?)

      Where do you first find the word messiah in the Hebrew Bible?

      ---
      Robert

      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
      "Ben Masada"...> wrote:
      > The main theme of the "New Testament" is the struggle to base the
      > Pauline claims about Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures. Othewise, the
      > whole of Christianity will become but the fruits of human caprices.
      > I have read the whole of the Bible a few times, and the Tanach even
      > more than several times. I haven't found Jesus in there. Perhaps
      > because I have been looking for his name in there?
      > So far I have been of the opinion that Israel, the People is the
      > Messiah. If I can show the Messiah or the son of God by name in the
      > Tanach, is it too much to ask that the name of Jesus as such to be
      > there? I didn't think so. If someone can prove to me what I am missing I am open minded for discussion and even to change my thoughts. However, as I state above in my question: Without assumptions. In the hope to hear from anyone,
      > Thanks
      > Ben


    • Robert Burris
      Ben, I didn t ask you for a bunch of Anti-missionary dogma. I asked you two simple questions. Are you capable of answering them? Robert ... or such, will
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1, 2008
        Ben,

        I didn't ask you for a bunch of Anti-missionary dogma. I asked you two
        simple questions. Are you capable of answering them?

        Robert

        --- In Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Mendson
        <masada52504@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Robert
        >
        > What is in a name? I don't believe that because one is named as such
        or such, will influence the character of that person, or mean anything
        other than just a name.
        >
        > Now, regarding the word Messiah, the meaning is anointed; and you
        will find Israel being the anointed one in I Chronicles 16:13,22.
        >
        > Moreover, for the name Messiah applied to Jesus, you have to
        consider when it was applied and by whom: Till about 30 years after
        Jesus' death no one had ever heard that Jesus had been the Messiah.
        Proof of it is in the fact that when Paul showed up in Jerusalem 30
        years after Jesus' death, preaching about him as the Messiah, son of
        God, and that he had resurrected, he caused such a havoc the the Jews
        wanted to kill him. Mind you that Jerusalem had been the headquarters
        for the Sect of the Nazarenes for more than 30 years, and they were
        getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism. Therefore, Paul was
        the one who fabricated the idea that Jesus was the Messiah.
        >
        > Ben
        > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        >
        > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Burris <fossil24@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Robert Burris <fossil24@...>
        > Subject: [Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Where's Jesus in the Hebrew
        Bible without assumptions?
        > To: Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 10:26 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Let's proceed with baby steps.
        >
        > What does the name Jesus mean? (What was his Hebrew name?)
        >
        > Where do you first find the word messiah in the Hebrew Bible?
        >
        > ---
        > Robert
        >
      • Joseph Mendson
        Robert, I do not consider myself an anti-missionary. But as I see you annoined, it occurred to me to ask you how do you feel being on the other side of the
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 4, 2008
          Robert,
           
          I do not consider myself an anti-missionary. But as I see you annoined, it occurred to
          me to ask you how do you feel being on the other side of the barrow. I am sure you have
          an idea of how missionaries bother me here when they knock at my door. I let them 
          come in and I give them a portion of their own medicine. As they leave, I can well see
          how stunned they look.
           
           I apologize. If you can repeat your two simple questions, I'll be
          more than happy to answer.
           
          Ben 

          --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Robert Burris <fossil24@...> wrote:
          From: Robert Burris <fossil24@...>
          Subject: [Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Where's Jesus in the Hebrew Bible without assumptions?
          To: Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:14 PM

          Ben,

          I didn't ask you for a bunch of Anti-missionary dogma. I asked you two
          simple questions. Are you capable of answering them?

          Robert

          --- In Messianic_Apologeti c@yahoogroups. com, Joseph Mendson
          <masada52504@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Robert
          >
          > What is in a name? I don't believe that because one is named as such
          or such, will influence the character of that person, or mean anything
          other than just a name.
          >
          > Now, regarding the word Messiah, the meaning is anointed; and you
          will find Israel being the anointed one in I Chronicles 16:13,22.
          >
          > Moreover, for the name Messiah applied to Jesus, you have to
          consider when it was applied and by whom: Till about 30 years after
          Jesus' death no one had ever heard that Jesus had been the Messiah.
          Proof of it is in the fact that when Paul showed up in Jerusalem 30
          years after Jesus' death, preaching about him as the Messiah, son of
          God, and that he had resurrected, he caused such a havoc the the Jews
          wanted to kill him. Mind you that Jerusalem had been the headquarters
          for the Sect of the Nazarenes for more than 30 years, and they were
          getting along quite well with mainstream Judaism. Therefore, Paul was
          the one who fabricated the idea that Jesus was the Messiah.
          >
          > Ben
          > ++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++
          >
          > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Burris <fossil24@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > From: Robert Burris <fossil24@.. .>
          > Subject: [Messianic_Apologet ic] Re: Where's Jesus in the Hebrew
          Bible without assumptions?
          > To: Messianic_Apologeti c@yahoogroups. com
          > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 10:26 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Let's proceed with baby steps.
          >
          > What does the name Jesus mean? (What was his Hebrew name?)
          >
          > Where do you first find the word messiah in the Hebrew Bible?
          >
          > ---
          > Robert
          >


        • Robert Burris
          Ben, My questions were at the bottom of the message you just replied to. You say that you re a careful reader, but you can t be that careful if you pass over
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 5, 2008
            Ben,

            My questions were at the bottom of the message you just replied to.
            You say that you're a careful reader, but you can't be that careful if
            you pass over questions put to you. You invited the conversation after
            all. If you are such a careful reader, then you should be able to find
            the questions with no trouble.

            I don't know where you live or who is sending missionaries to you, but
            I doubt that you are talking to people who are very well versed in the
            Bible. The two groups that do door-to-door missionary work in the US
            are the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are not
            representative of orthodox Christianity. The hold to the precepts of
            men more than they hold to the Bible. So I'm not surprised that
            they're easy to contend against.

            Nevertheless, you are anti-missionary if you make a regular practice
            of contending with missionaries. I have yet to see you present
            anything that differs from the standard anti-missionary talking
            points. The only real question is, are your questions honest. I doubt
            it, but let's give you the benefit of proving your honesty.

            Robert


            (mod note)
            Currently I am contending with some 'missionaries' against the pure King James Bible. Thus I too, in a sense, am anti-mish ! :-)

            ===================================================
            Joseph Mendson@...> wrote:
            > Robert,
            > I do not consider myself an anti-missionary. But as I see you
            annoined, it occurred to
            > me to ask you how do you feel being on the other side of the barrow.
            I am sure you have an idea of how missionaries bother me here when they knock at my door. I let them come in and I give them a portion of their own medicine. As they leave, I can well see how stunned they look. I apologize. If you can repeat your two simple questions, I'll be more than happy to answer.
            > Ben
            >
            (mod snip)
          • Joseph Mendson
            Robert, Shalom. Criticism accepted, I ll be a better reader next time. Sorry again. You are right about the door-to-door missionaries. I have got Mormons and
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 7, 2008
              Robert, Shalom.

              Criticism accepted, I'll be a better reader next time. Sorry again.

              You are right about the door-to-door missionaries. I have got Mormons and JW a few times. But also Pentencostals and Messianic Jews. They all sound like a broken record. As I plug them in, they all come up with whatever is previously recorded. The same old stuff as a result of assumptions.

              Now, that "They are not representatives of Orthodox Christianity," is exactly what you all say about each other. I bet that if I told them about you, they would say the same thing: That you do not represent Orthodox Christianity.

              Oh! So, if I make a point at giving answer to their questions and agree to sit down and study with them, I am anti-missionary. What would you want me to do, to behave like a turkey that needs to be stuffed or based for Thanksgiving? No, my friend. When Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world, I can't hide my light under the bushel. (Mat. 5:14)

              Last but not least, you can bet that I am thouroughly honest not only with my questions but also with my answers.

              Ben

              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

              --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Robert Burris <fossil24@...> wrote:

              From: Robert Burris
              Ben,

              My questions were at the bottom of the message you just replied to.
              You say that you're a careful reader, but you can't be that careful if
              you pass over questions put to you. You invited the conversation after
              all. If you are such a careful reader, then you should be able to find
              the questions with no trouble.

              I don't know where you live or who is sending missionaries to you, but
              I doubt that you are talking to people who are very well versed in the
              Bible. The two groups that do door-to-door missionary work in the US
              are the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are not
              representative of orthodox Christianity. The hold to the precepts of
              men more than they hold to the Bible. So I'm not surprised that
              they're easy to contend against.

              Nevertheless, you are anti-missionary if you make a regular practice
              of contending with missionaries. I have yet to see you present
              anything that differs from the standard anti-missionary talking
              points. The only real question is, are your questions honest. I doubt
              it, but let's give you the benefit of proving your honesty.

              Robert

              (mod note)
              Currently I am contending with some 'missionaries' against the pure King James Bible. Thus I too, in a sense, am anti-mish ! :-)

              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
              Joseph Mendson@...> wrote:
              > Robert,
              > I do not consider myself an anti-missionary. But as I see you
              annoined, it occurred to
              > me to ask you how do you feel being on the other side of the barrow.
              I am sure you have an idea of how missionaries bother me here when they knock at my door. I let them come in and I give them a portion of their own medicine. As they leave, I can well see how stunned they look. I apologize. If you can repeat your two simple questions, I'll be more than happy to answer.
              > Ben
              >
              (mod snip)
            • Ben Masada
              -Nana, When I asked you to show me Yeshua in the Tanach, I didn t mean the name per se but the Yeshua son of Mary and Joseph. If you now point to me Joshua or
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 10, 2008
                -Nana,

                When I asked you to show me Yeshua in the Tanach, I didn't mean the
                name per se but the Yeshua son of Mary and Joseph. If you now point
                to me Joshua or epitets of "my salvation" or "thy salvation" or
                things of the like, I might as well show you a lot of Joshuahs and
                Jesuses around. You know perfectly well what I mean. The Yeshua we
                are talking about is not in the Tanach and you know it very well.
                One has to assume, and assumptions butter no bread.

                Ben
                +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                (mod note)
                So this objection can

                "nanasarshalom" ...> wrote:

                > "Messianic Girl" <messianicgrl@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I believe all Messianic references of Yeshua was removed from the
                > Tenach in
                > > the latest version.
                > > I'll check or look into the original version.
                > > As far as his name, was not referenced as Jesus but as
                salvation,
                > that is
                > > what Yeshua means.
                > > I'll research it to make sure.
                > >
                > > Tyla
                >
                > Albion wrote:
                > > ... right there in The
                > Tanakh, is a suffix in Hebrew that will say:
                >
                > "His Salvation", or "Thy Salvation", or "My Salvation", and so on.
                >
                > Each and every time actually saying: "Yeshua!"
                >
                > >Literally hundreds of times, there's Yeshua's Name each time!
                >
                > =============================
                >
                > The name Yeshua [H3442] and the word yeshuah [H3444] are two
                different
                > words, although linked in definition. Yeshua [masculine word]
                means "He
                > is salvation or He saves" [explained in Matt 1:21 "for He will
                save His
                > people from their sins"], while yeshuah [feminine word] means
                > "salvation" which is used many times in the Tanakh.
                >
                > Yeshua is a shortened version of Yehoshua [H3091 - YHWH is
                savation or
                > YHWH saves]. Yeshua [H3442] appears 29 times in the Tanakh [1
                time in 1
                > Chron, 1 time in 2 Chron, 10 times in Ezra, and 17 times in
                Nehemiah].
                > Yeshua appears in the Tanakh, as Jeshua per the KJB [Names
                beginning
                > with "Y" are spelled and pronounced using a "J" in English Bibles].
                >
                > I thought you might be interested in reviewing how the name Yeshua
                got
                > transliterated into Greek, then Latin, and finally into English:
                >
                > quote:
                >
                > "When transliterating Yod-Shin-Vav-Ayin -- the Hebrew name Yeshua
                to Greek:
                >
                > Yod - "ye"> transliterates by pairing iota-eta (Ih) which is
                vocalized as "yay" or "ee-ay" because Greek has no consonant y.
                >
                > Shin - "sh"> transliterates as sigma (s) because there is no
                equivalent letter for the "sh" sound in Greek.
                >
                > Vav - "u" > the final u sound transliterates as the dipthong
                > omicron-upsilon (ou) vocalized as "oo" because upsilon alone would
                not create the correct voicing needed.
                >
                > Ayin - "ah"> the rules that govern Greek grammar dictate that this
                > letter not be vocalized, and is due to the fact that it is not
                allowable
                > for masculine names to end with a vowel during the transliteration
                > process from the Hebrew to Greek.
                >
                > The final sigma (V) or "s" on the end is part of the standard
                > transliteration from other languages to Greek. Greek nouns and
                names
                > almost always have case endings, so the sigma (V) or "s" is added
                at the
                > end of the word to distinguish that the name is the masculine
                form, and
                > also makes it declinable.
                >
                > What we end up with is the name Iesous (IhsouV), pronounced Ee-ay-
                sooce
                > or Yaysoos. The Greek Iesous then got transliterated into Latin as
                > Iesu[s], and then into Old English as Jesus, but initially the J
                was at
                > that time, still pronounced like the German J, which was
                pronounced with
                > more of a 'Y' sound. This is the way that it still is spoken in
                Germany
                > today. Over time, the J sound eventually began to harden into
                sounding
                > more like the the French J which is where the Modern English J
                > originated from. The end result is the current English
                pronunciation of
                > Jesus." [end quote]
                >
                > reference: http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm
                > <http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm>
                >
                > shalom, nana
                >
              • marie wood
                Ben wrote: Now, that They are not representatives of Orthodox Christianity, is exactly what you all say about each other. I bet that if I told them about
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 11, 2008
                  Ben wrote:

                  " Now, that "They are not representatives of Orthodox Christianity," is exactly what you all say about each other. I bet that if I told them about you, they would say the same thing: That you do not represent Orthodox Christianity."

                  True, but how is Judaism any different?  You have the Ultra Orthodox that do not engage in society much, Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc..   All of them believeing that they represent true Judaism.

                  marie



                • nanasarshalom
                  ... No, my friend. When Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world, I can t hide my light under the bushel. (Mat. 5:14) ... wow, Ben - that s really
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 11, 2008


                    Joseph Mendson wrote:

                    >

                    > <snip>


                    No, my friend. When Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world, I can't hide my light under the bushel. (Mat. 5:14)

                    >
                    > Ben

                    wow, Ben - that's really cool!  I am like major impressed that you find value in the words of Jesus Christ!  Perhaps you are leaning towards believing that He is indeed Ha Mâshîyach as promised, the Son of David, and Lion of the Tribe of Judah :)

                    shalom,

                    nana

                  • hemnancy
                    Ben- God rewards those who seek Him, and who come to Him with faith. He has a question for you- Pro 30:1 ¶ The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, [even] the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 12, 2008
                      Ben- God rewards those who seek Him, and who come to Him with faith.
                      He has a question for you-

                      Pro 30:1 ¶ The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, [even] the prophecy:
                      the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
                      Pro 30:2 Surely I [am] more brutish than [any] man, and have not the
                      understanding of a man.
                      Pro 30:3 I neither learned wisdom, nor [mistranslated, really "but I
                      do"] have the knowledge of the holy.
                      Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath
                      gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a
                      garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is]
                      his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

                      Isa 52:7 ¶ How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that
                      bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good
                      tidings of good, that publisheth salvation [Yeshuati- my salvation];
                      that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

                      Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the
                      way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they
                      that put their trust in him.

                      I would not want to stand before the throne of God and have to
                      explain why I rejected His Son, and the salvation He offered.

                      Those who come to God by faith are under the Abrahamic covenant,
                      which preceded the Mosaic covenant by 430 years and was not annulled
                      by the giving of the Torah.

                      Shalom, Nancy


                      --- In Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Mendson
                      <masada52504@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Robert, Shalom.
                      >
                      > Criticism accepted, I'll be a better reader next time. Sorry again.
                      >
                      > You are right about the door-to-door missionaries. I have got
                      Mormons and JW a few times. But also Pentencostals and Messianic
                      Jews. They all sound like a broken record. As I plug them in, they
                      all come up with whatever is previously recorded. The same old stuff
                      as a result of assumptions.
                      >
                      > Now, that "They are not representatives of Orthodox Christianity,"
                      is exactly what you all say about each other. I bet that if I told
                      them about you, they would say the same thing: That you do not
                      represent Orthodox Christianity.
                      >
                      > Oh! So, if I make a point at giving answer to their questions and
                      agree to sit down and study with them, I am anti-missionary. What
                      would you want me to do, to behave like a turkey that needs to be
                      stuffed or based for Thanksgiving? No, my friend. When Jesus said
                      that the Jews are the light of the world, I can't hide my light under
                      the bushel. (Mat. 5:14)
                      >
                      > Last but not least, you can bet that I am thouroughly honest not
                      only with my questions but also with my answers.
                      >
                      > Ben
                    • Joseph Mendson
                      You are right marie,   None represents Biblical Judaism. An Orthodox Jew represents Orthodox Judaism. A  Conservative Jew represents Conservative Judaism,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 12, 2008
                        You are right marie,
                         
                        None represents Biblical Judaism. An Orthodox Jew represents Orthodox Judaism.
                        A  Conservative Jew represents Conservative Judaism, and a Reform Jew represents
                        Reform Judaism, and so on. No one claims to represent true Judaism, which, I believe,
                        is Biblical Judaism. But it's true about Christians to charge each other as not representing
                        real Christianity. I brought that up because my Christian opponent, whom I don't need to mention the name here, made that exact claim. But that's okay. That won't build anything into our study of the Truth.
                         
                        Ben

                        --- On Mon, 8/11/08, marie wood <shoshanna1776@...> wrote:
                        From: marie wood <shoshanna1776@...>
                        Subject: [Messianic_Apologetic] Re: Where's Jesus in the Hebrew Bible without assumptions?
                        To: Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 9:51 AM

                        Ben wrote:

                        " Now, that "They are not representatives of Orthodox Christianity," is exactly what you all say about each other. I bet that if I told them about you, they would say the same thing: That you do not represent Orthodox Christianity. "

                        True, but how is Judaism any different?  You have the Ultra Orthodox that do not engage in society much, Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc..   All of them believeing that they represent true Judaism.

                        marie




                      • Messianic Girl
                        Funny many of the rituals and customs practiced by these Judaism not Messianic Jews is Babylonian and not of our Elohim!
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 26, 2008
                          Funny many of the rituals and customs practiced by these Judaism not Messianic Jews is Babylonian and not of our Elohim!

                          On 8/10/08, Ben Masada <masada52504@...> wrote:

                          -Nana,

                          When I asked you to show me Yeshua in the Tanach, I didn't mean the
                          name per se but the Yeshua son of Mary and Joseph. If you now point
                          to me Joshua or epitets of "my salvation" or "thy salvation" or
                          things of the like, I might as well show you a lot of Joshuahs and
                          Jesuses around. You know perfectly well what I mean. The Yeshua we
                          are talking about is not in the Tanach and you know it very well.
                          One has to assume, and assumptions butter no bread.

                          Ben
                          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                          (mod note)
                          So this objection can

                          "nanasarshalom" ...> wrote:

                          > "Messianic Girl" <messianicgrl@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I believe all Messianic references of Yeshua was removed from the
                          > Tenach in
                          > > the latest version.
                          > > I'll check or look into the original version.
                          > > As far as his name, was not referenced as Jesus but as
                          salvation,
                          > that is
                          > > what Yeshua means.
                          > > I'll research it to make sure.
                          > >
                          > > Tyla
                          >
                          > Albion wrote:
                          > > ... right there in The
                          > Tanakh, is a suffix in Hebrew that will say:
                          >
                          > "His Salvation", or "Thy Salvation", or "My Salvation", and so on.
                          >
                          > Each and every time actually saying: "Yeshua!"
                          >
                          > >Literally hundreds of times, there's Yeshua's Name each time!
                          >
                          > =============================
                          >
                          > The name Yeshua [H3442] and the word yeshuah [H3444] are two
                          different
                          > words, although linked in definition. Yeshua [masculine word]
                          means "He
                          > is salvation or He saves" [explained in Matt 1:21 "for He will
                          save His
                          > people from their sins"], while yeshuah [feminine word] means
                          > "salvation" which is used many times in the Tanakh.
                          >
                          > Yeshua is a shortened version of Yehoshua [H3091 - YHWH is
                          savation or
                          > YHWH saves]. Yeshua [H3442] appears 29 times in the Tanakh [1
                          time in 1
                          > Chron, 1 time in 2 Chron, 10 times in Ezra, and 17 times in
                          Nehemiah].
                          > Yeshua appears in the Tanakh, as Jeshua per the KJB [Names
                          beginning
                          > with "Y" are spelled and pronounced using a "J" in English Bibles].
                          >
                          > I thought you might be interested in reviewing how the name Yeshua
                          got
                          > transliterated into Greek, then Latin, and finally into English:
                          >
                          > quote:
                          >
                          > "When transliterating Yod-Shin-Vav-Ayin -- the Hebrew name Yeshua
                          to Greek:
                          >
                          > Yod - "ye"> transliterates by pairing iota-eta (Ih) which is
                          vocalized as "yay" or "ee-ay" because Greek has no consonant y.
                          >
                          > Shin - "sh"> transliterates as sigma (s) because there is no
                          equivalent letter for the "sh" sound in Greek.
                          >
                          > Vav - "u" > the final u sound transliterates as the dipthong
                          > omicron-upsilon (ou) vocalized as "oo" because upsilon alone would
                          not create the correct voicing needed.
                          >
                          > Ayin - "ah"> the rules that govern Greek grammar dictate that this
                          > letter not be vocalized, and is due to the fact that it is not
                          allowable
                          > for masculine names to end with a vowel during the transliteration
                          > process from the Hebrew to Greek.
                          >
                          > The final sigma (V) or "s" on the end is part of the standard
                          > transliteration from other languages to Greek. Greek nouns and
                          names
                          > almost always have case endings, so the sigma (V) or "s" is added
                          at the
                          > end of the word to distinguish that the name is the masculine
                          form, and
                          > also makes it declinable.
                          >
                          > What we end up with is the name Iesous (IhsouV), pronounced Ee-ay-
                          sooce
                          > or Yaysoos. The Greek Iesous then got transliterated into Latin as
                          > Iesu[s], and then into Old English as Jesus, but initially the J
                          was at
                          > that time, still pronounced like the German J, which was
                          pronounced with
                          > more of a 'Y' sound. This is the way that it still is spoken in
                          Germany
                          > today. Over time, the J sound eventually began to harden into
                          sounding
                          > more like the the French J which is where the Modern English J
                          > originated from. The end result is the current English
                          pronunciation of
                          > Jesus." [end quote]
                          >
                          > reference: http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm
                          > <http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm>
                          >
                          > shalom, nana
                          >


                        • Marianne Tioran
                          I believe in the conclusions about Yeshua, but not these arguments. It is like saying the word water is in the Tenach, and someone who comes later is named
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 26, 2008
                            I believe in the conclusions about Yeshua, but not these arguments.

                            It is like saying the word "water" is in the Tenach, and someone who comes later is named "water."� That argument is meaningless.� Water, the wet stuff, can exist very well without someone named after it.

                            There are many Hebrew names that include the divine name in them.� This does not make them divine.

                            There are specific issues for traditional Jews.� They need to be answered properly before there is any clarity on who the Messiah might be.� Try these links.

                            http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/is-the-jewish-messiah-just-a-man/

                            http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/did-jesus-fulfill-the-jewish-scriptures-for-messiah/

                            http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/why-jews-reject-jesus%E2%80%A6unfulfilled-prophesies/

                            http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/jesus-as-the-son-of-god/

                            http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/why-did-jesus-have-to-die/

                            http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/why-isn%E2%80%99t-jesus-back-yet/

                            blessings
                            marianne

                            =============================================
                            (mod note)

                            The Rick OShay response went in by accident. He lost posting privileges a while back, although sometimes I accidentally let a post through. (He would have to go back to the issues on the loss to get reinstated.

                            Incidentally we fell behind, my apologies, on a few posts. One was by Stephen Silver, the most significant, and maybe he could resend.

                            =======================


                            Rick OShay <rickoshay4u@...> wrote:
                            assumptions?" Yet every illustration he gives is an "assumption".
                            I wonder why he does not allow others to do what he does?

                            Ben Masada <masada52504@...> wrote:
                            > When I asked you to show me Yeshua in the Tanach, I > didn't mean the name per se but the Yeshua son of Mary and Joseph. If you now point to me Joshua or epitets of "my salvation" or
                            > "thy salvation" or things of the like, I might as well show you a lot of oshuahs and Jesuses around. You know perfectly well what I mean. The Yeshua we are talking about is not in the Tanach and you know it very well.
                            > One has to assume, and assumptions butter no bread.
                            > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            >
                          • nanasarshalom
                            ... It would help if you stated exactly what you mean by proof that Jesus is in the Tanakh. If you are looking for a verse that says the Messiah s name will
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 26, 2008


                              "Ben Masada" wrote:

                              >
                              > -Nana,
                              >
                              > When I asked you to show me Yeshua in the Tanach, I didn't mean the
                              > name per se but the Yeshua son of Mary and Joseph. If you now point
                              > to me Joshua or epitets of "my salvation" or "thy salvation" or
                              > things of the like, I might as well show you a lot of Joshuahs and
                              > Jesuses around. You know perfectly well what I mean. The Yeshua we
                              > are talking about is not in the Tanach and you know it very well.
                              > One has to assume, and assumptions butter no bread.
                              >
                              > Ben
                              > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                              It would help if you stated exactly what you mean by "proof" that Jesus is in the Tanakh.  If you are looking for a verse that says the Messiah's name will be ___________   it's not going to be there.  This is would be similar to other prophecies.  God did not always give specifics, but yet we can see how the prophets relayed an accurate and inspired Word from God by fulfillment of their words.  It is a fact that prophecy is often recognized as fulfilled by hind sight, is it not?

                              shalom, nana

                            • nanasarshalom
                              ... Judaism. ... represents ... which, I believe, ... other as not representing ... whom I don t need to mention the name here, made that exact claim. But
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 26, 2008


                                Joseph Mendson wrote:

                                >
                                > You are right marie,
                                >  
                                > None represents Biblical Judaism. An Orthodox Jew represents Orthodox Judaism.
                                > A  Conservative Jew represents Conservative Judaism, and a Reform Jew represents
                                > Reform Judaism, and so on. No one claims to represent true Judaism, which, I believe,
                                > is Biblical Judaism. But it's true about Christians to charge each other as not representing
                                > real Christianity. I brought that up because my Christian opponent, whom I don't need to mention the name here, made that exact claim. But that's okay.. That won't build anything into our study of the Truth.
                                >  
                                > Ben
                                >
                                +++++++++++++++

                                I am curious what your view is for "Biblical Judaism".  How would you define it?  If Judaism as a whole has missed it, then is there such a concept?

                                shalom, nana

                              • hemnancy
                                Ben- I have no trouble at all finding Yeshua in the Tanach, from the beginning to the end. The Yeshua of the New Testament or Covenant refers to Himself in
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 2 5:08 AM
                                  Ben- I have no trouble at all finding Yeshua in the Tanach, from the
                                  beginning to the end. The Yeshua of the New Testament or Covenant
                                  refers to Himself in His Apolcalypse as the Alpha and Omega, the
                                  First and Last, the Beginning and the End. This would correspond in
                                  the Hebrew language to the Aleph Tav, which is the fourth word of
                                  Genesis 1:1, qualifying Him as Creator God, as it states in John
                                  1:3. Interestingly, the Messiah Yeshua comes from the fourth tribe,
                                  Judah, meaning Praise. This is the meaning of the Scarlet Thread, of
                                  Genesis 38:28-30, marking the second born as the one to carry on the
                                  line leading to Messiah Yeshua, and in the Tabernacle, representing
                                  blood shed for remission of sins, and in Joshua 2:18-21 to mark
                                  Rahab's house in the fall of Jericho, Rahab going on to marry Salmon,
                                  who begat Boaz, who also married a Gentile bride, Ruth, begat Obed,
                                  who begat Jesse, who begat David, from whom the Messiah was to come.

                                  The earliest Bible prophecy about the Messiah comes at the fall of
                                  man, after Adam and Eve sin because of Satan's temptation as the
                                  serpent-
                                  "And God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, you are
                                  cursed above all beasts, and above all the animals of the field. You
                                  shall go on your belly and shall eat dust all the days of your
                                  life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between
                                  your seed and her seed- He will bruise your head, and you will
                                  bruise His heel'
                                  " Genesis 3:14-15

                                  This is illustrated 6 times with 6 evil representations of Satan (6
                                  is the number of evil) in the stars, paired with representations of
                                  the Messiah-
                                  1. OPHIUCUS, the Messiah wrestling with the SERPENT for the Crown, is
                                  wounded in one heel but crushes the head of the SCORPION
                                  2. HERCULES, the Messiah wounded in his heel, the other foot over the
                                  DRAGON's head, holding in one hand the Golden Apples and the
                                  three-headed Dog of hell, and in the other the uplifted club.
                                  3. ARIES, the Lamb that was Slain, the Messiah as sinless offering
                                  for our sins, sitting on the head of CETUS, the Sea Monster
                                  4. ORION, the Messiah wounded in one heel (Rigel) but the other heel
                                  on the head of LEPUS, the enemy, represented in some star pictures
                                  as a snake
                                  5. TAURUS- the bull, the false Messiah or Anti-Christ, coming to
                                  crush the whole earth, piercing the heel of AURICA, the shepherd,
                                  but also bringing about the harvest of the earth by trying and
                                  testing the faith of the people of the whole earth. The shepherd is
                                  over his head.
                                  6. LEO, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, leaps on the head of the
                                  HYDRA, along with Cancer the crab, the beloved held fast- the
                                  believers in Messiah.

                                  The Gospel in the Stars is discussed in this link-
                                  http://members.aol.com/larrypahl/5stars.htm in just a very simple
                                  outline.

                                  When I look at the stars, some constellations that fascinate me are
                                  Orion, the Light bringer, and Hercules, who carries the weight of
                                  the world on his shoulders, representations of the Messiah. The
                                  picture in the stars came before the pagan stories coming later that
                                  have nothing to do with the real symbolism put there by God. God
                                  loved all of mankind and put the gospel, the good news, of salvation
                                  (Isaiah 52:7) in the stars for everyone to see-

                                  Psa 19:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The heavens
                                  declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
                                  Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
                                  knowledge.
                                  Psa 19:3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is
                                  not heard.
                                  Psa 19:4a Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their
                                  words to the end of the world....

                                  Whose report have we believed? I believe the report of Adonai.
                                  Isaiah 53.

                                  Nancy



                                  --- In Messianic_Apologetic@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Masada"
                                  <masada52504@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > -Nana,
                                  >
                                  > When I asked you to show me Yeshua in the Tanach, I didn't mean the
                                  > name per se but the Yeshua son of Mary and Joseph. If you now point
                                  > to me Joshua or epitets of "my salvation" or "thy salvation" or
                                  > things of the like, I might as well show you a lot of Joshuahs and
                                  > Jesuses around. You know perfectly well what I mean. The Yeshua we
                                  > are talking about is not in the Tanach and you know it very well.
                                  > One has to assume, and assumptions butter no bread.
                                  >
                                  > Ben
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