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RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?

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  • Christopher Erickson
    PEC is the poor man s tracking system. It can t compensate for things that an autoguider can. Things like mirror shift, focuser/camera sag, optical train
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 1 12:11 AM
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      PEC is the poor man's tracking system. It can't compensate
      for things that an autoguider can. Things like mirror shift,
      focuser/camera sag, optical train flexure, minor polar
      alignment error, etc. Autoguiders can help with all of those.

      Autoguiding using an off axis guider ("easy guider"), is one
      of the best ways to get accurate tracking for astrophotography.
      This is especially true for compound scopes with moving mirrors.

      You shouldn't try to use PEC and autoguiding at the same time.
      Best case would be no improvement over autoguiding by itself.
      Worst case is the autoguider ends up fighting the PEC error
      corrections and causing tracking errors.

      "My advice is free and worth every penny!"

      -Christopher Erickson
      Network Design Engineer
      5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
      Anchorage, AK 99508
      N61° 11.710' W149° 46.723'
      Meade 16" LX200 SCT
      www.data-plumber.com

      "Monetary contributions to support the
      Data-Plumber.com archives are always
      welcome via PayPal to cerickson@..."




      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WarpedCorp
      > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:54 PM
      > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
      >
      > Christopher...
      >
      > Is there an advantage / disadvantage of using PEC with
      > autoguiding? Would they be "fighting" each other or would it
      > be a more accurate solution.
      >
      > Warp
      >
      > Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote:
      > The Meade Autostar Suite software has the feature
      > where it can
      > perform the PEC training for you. You simply set up your scope
      > according to the instructions, focus, center a medium-bright
      > star and then let the software do its work. Afterwards you can
      > check the PEC training and then re-do it if needed.
      >
      > The DSI cameras are being discounted right now as the older
      > models are going cheap while the newer models come out.
      >
      > Personally I prefer to use a DSI camera as an autoguider and
      > not bother with PEC training. Autoguiding is greatly superior to
      > PEC. I use a modified Canon 10D as my main imaging
      > camera at the moment.
      >
      > -Christopher Erickson
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Tom Rauschenbach <astrotom@...>
      > Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:34 pm
      > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
      > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
      > > > 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the
      > > > only way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive
      > > > into itself.
      > > >
      > > > 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
      > > > crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
      > > >
      > > > 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography. If
      > > > you are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
      > > >
      > > > 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC
      > training for you.
      > >
      > >
      > > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
      > > star on the
      > > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how
      > > to make a
      > > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's
      > > software
      > > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
      > >
      > > TIA
      > >
      > >
      > > Tom R
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or fewer
      > > than 100.
      > > -- Steele's Law
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • John Mahony
      ... Most of those can only be handled by an autoguider if you use an off-axis guider rather than a guidescope. And only a dual chip camera can deal with
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 1 12:34 AM
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        --- Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote:

        > PEC is the poor man's tracking system. It can't compensate
        > for things that an autoguider can. Things like mirror shift,
        > focuser/camera sag, optical train flexure, minor polar
        > alignment error, etc. Autoguiders can help with all of those.

        Most of those can only be handled by an autoguider if you use an off-axis
        guider rather than a guidescope. And only a dual chip camera can deal with
        camera sag.

        > Autoguiding using an off axis guider ("easy guider"), is one
        > of the best ways to get accurate tracking for astrophotography.
        > This is especially true for compound scopes with moving mirrors.
        >
        > You shouldn't try to use PEC and autoguiding at the same time.
        > Best case would be no improvement over autoguiding by itself.
        > Worst case is the autoguider ends up fighting the PEC error
        > corrections and causing tracking errors.

        That depends a lot of the nature of the periodic error. In bad cases, PEC can
        smooth it out and make it easier for a guider to correct the remaining error.

        -John


        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WarpedCorp
        > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:54 PM
        > > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
        > >
        > > Christopher...
        > >
        > > Is there an advantage / disadvantage of using PEC with
        > > autoguiding? Would they be "fighting" each other or would it
        > > be a more accurate solution.
        > >
        > > Warp
        > >
        > > Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote:
        > > The Meade Autostar Suite software has the feature
        > > where it can
        > > perform the PEC training for you. You simply set up your scope
        > > according to the instructions, focus, center a medium-bright
        > > star and then let the software do its work. Afterwards you can
        > > check the PEC training and then re-do it if needed.
        > >
        > > The DSI cameras are being discounted right now as the older
        > > models are going cheap while the newer models come out.
        > >
        > > Personally I prefer to use a DSI camera as an autoguider and
        > > not bother with PEC training. Autoguiding is greatly superior to
        > > PEC. I use a modified Canon 10D as my main imaging
        > > camera at the moment.
        > >
        > > -Christopher Erickson
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Tom Rauschenbach <astrotom@...>
        > > Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:34 pm
        > > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
        > > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
        > > > > 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the
        > > > > only way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive
        > > > > into itself.
        > > > >
        > > > > 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
        > > > > crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
        > > > >
        > > > > 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography. If
        > > > > you are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
        > > > >
        > > > > 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC
        > > training for you.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
        > > > star on the
        > > > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how
        > > > to make a
        > > > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's
        > > > software
        > > > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
        > > >
        > > > TIA
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Tom R
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or fewer
        > > > than 100.
        > > > -- Steele's Law
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
      • Joe McMichael
        Hey Warp I m probably not the best guy to answer this.I just got my second DSI. The Meade software can handle both at the same time. You can guide with one if
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 1 6:07 AM
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          Hey Warp



          I'm probably not the best guy to answer this.I just got my second DSI. The
          Meade software can handle both at the same time. You can guide with one if
          you like. So, that would be a yes. But, that's not a big deal. You can also
          use the Meade software for the DSI and another software to guide, either
          with a second DSI or another brand. That works too. The DSI Pro is very
          sensitive and makes a great guide camera. The DSI color is not as good. The
          newer Meade cameras have larger chips, are more sensitive, and handle
          temperature changes better. They also cost a lot more.



          I guess if you intend to image with a DSI and you don't have a second camera
          to guide with, then I'd recommend a second DSI.



          Not sure I answered your question.



          Joe



          _____

          From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WarpedCorp
          Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:56 AM
          To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?



          So... are there advantages of using two DSI's - one on a guide scope and one
          for the imager?

          Warp

          Joe McMichael <jmcmichael@satx. <mailto:jmcmichael%40satx.rr.com> rr.com>
          wrote:
          Shoot Rod

          Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an illuminated reticle
          EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for guiding, and even
          take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best bang for the
          buck that I've seen for a while!

          Joe

          _____

          From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod Mollise
          Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
          To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?

          I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to do manually.
          Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated crosshair reticle
          eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is only of use for
          imaging, not visual work.

          Peace,
          Rod Mollise
          Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain Telescope...and...
          The Urban Astronomer's Guide
          <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
          brainiac.com/astroland>
          brainiac.com/astroland>

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
          Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
          To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?

          On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
          > 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the only
          > way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive into itself.
          >
          > 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
          > crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
          >
          > 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography. If you
          > are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
          >
          > 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training for you.

          Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a star on the
          cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how to make a
          computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's software
          or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !

          TIA

          Tom R

          >

          --
          There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or fewer than
          100.
          -- Steele's Law

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • awallacejr@sbcglobal.net
          The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI s for about $65. Andy ... From: Joe McMichael To:
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 1 7:59 AM
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            The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI's for about $65.

            Andy


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Joe McMichael" <jmcmichael@...>
            To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:01 PM
            Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?


            > Shoot Rod
            >
            > Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an illuminated reticle
            > EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for guiding, and
            > even
            > take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best bang for the
            > buck that I've seen for a while!
            >
            >
            >
            > Joe
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod Mollise
            > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
            > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
            >
            >
            >
            > I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to do manually.
            > Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated crosshair reticle
            > eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is only of use
            > for
            > imaging, not visual work.
            >
            > Peace,
            > Rod Mollise
            > Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain Telescope...and...
            > The Urban Astronomer's Guide
            > <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
            > brainiac.com/astroland>
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
            > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
            > To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
            >
            > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
            >> 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the only
            >> way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive into itself.
            >>
            >> 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
            >> crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
            >>
            >> 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography. If you
            >> are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
            >>
            >> 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training for you.
            >
            > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a star on the
            > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how to make
            > a
            > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's software
            > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
            >
            > TIA
            >
            > Tom R
            >
            >>
            >
            > --
            > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or fewer than
            > 100.
            > -- Steele's Law
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Christopher Erickson
            ... It depends where the sag is happening. If it is happening after the off-axis guider then true. If it is after the focuser but before the off-axis
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 1 8:08 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              <SNIP>

              > Most of those can only be handled by an autoguider if you use
              > an off-axis guider rather than a guidescope. And only a dual
              > chip camera can deal with camera sag.

              It depends where the sag is happening. If it is happening after
              the off-axis guider then true. If it is after the focuser but
              before the off-axis guider then false. All of my off-axis guiders
              have rigid camera mounting bayonets on them with either threads
              or three equidistant lock screws on them to prevent any sag from
              taking place between the off-axis guider and the imaging camera.
              There might be off-axis guiders out there that don't have that kind
              of rigid coupling so it is a matter of "buyer beware".

              > > You shouldn't try to use PEC and autoguiding at the same time.
              > > Best case would be no improvement over autoguiding by itself.
              > > Worst case is the autoguider ends up fighting the PEC error
              > > corrections and causing tracking errors.
              >
              > That depends a lot of the nature of the periodic error. In
              > bad cases, PEC can smooth it out and make it easier for a guider
              > to correct the remaining error.

              I disagree. Since they are both attempting to command the same
              motor in every current commercial scope control system I have
              seen, it can NEVER improve over standard autoguiding that is
              functioning correctly. I have seen some custom multiple motor
              systems on very large scopes where the PEC is handled by a
              separate motor. Theoretically the autoguider would have less
              detectable errors to compensate for but I still wonder if the
              extra design effort and complication provides any real benefits
              detectable at the focus plane.

              -Christopher Erickson
            • Gregg
              Your Discovery Store must be different from the one I see on Internet. The only DSI camera is $499 and there are no closeout sales. ... illuminated reticle
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 1 8:50 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Your Discovery Store must be different from the one I see on
                Internet. The only DSI camera is $499 and there are no closeout
                sales.

                --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@...> wrote:
                >
                > The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI's for about $65.
                >
                > Andy
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Joe McMichael" <jmcmichael@...>
                > To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:01 PM
                > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                >
                >
                > > Shoot Rod
                > >
                > > Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an
                illuminated reticle
                > > EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for
                guiding, and
                > > even
                > > take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best bang
                for the
                > > buck that I've seen for a while!
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Joe
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > _____
                > >
                > > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod Mollise
                > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
                > > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to do
                manually.
                > > Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated
                crosshair reticle
                > > eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is only
                of use
                > > for
                > > imaging, not visual work.
                > >
                > > Peace,
                > > Rod Mollise
                > > Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain
                Telescope...and...
                > > The Urban Astronomer's Guide
                > > <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
                > > brainiac.com/astroland>
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
                > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
                > > To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                > >
                > > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
                > >> 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the
                only
                > >> way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive into
                itself.
                > >>
                > >> 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
                > >> crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
                > >>
                > >> 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography.
                If you
                > >> are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
                > >>
                > >> 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training for
                you.
                > >
                > > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
                star on the
                > > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how
                to make
                > > a
                > > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's
                software
                > > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
                > >
                > > TIA
                > >
                > > Tom R
                > >
                > >>
                > >
                > > --
                > > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or
                fewer than
                > > 100.
                > > -- Steele's Law
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • awallacejr@sbcglobal.net
                No internet sales. Only the stores that are closing all over the country. Got mine from the Austin, Texas store. $65, including shipping. ... From: Gregg
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 1 9:19 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  No internet sales. Only the stores that are closing all over the country.
                  Got mine from the Austin, Texas store. $65, including shipping.



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Gregg" <starryskyn@...>
                  To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:50 AM
                  Subject: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?


                  > Your Discovery Store must be different from the one I see on
                  > Internet. The only DSI camera is $499 and there are no closeout
                  > sales.
                  >
                  > --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI's for about $65.
                  >>
                  >> Andy
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: "Joe McMichael" <jmcmichael@...>
                  >> To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:01 PM
                  >> Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> > Shoot Rod
                  >> >
                  >> > Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an
                  > illuminated reticle
                  >> > EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for
                  > guiding, and
                  >> > even
                  >> > take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best bang
                  > for the
                  >> > buck that I've seen for a while!
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Joe
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > _____
                  >> >
                  >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod Mollise
                  >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
                  >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to do
                  > manually.
                  >> > Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated
                  > crosshair reticle
                  >> > eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is only
                  > of use
                  >> > for
                  >> > imaging, not visual work.
                  >> >
                  >> > Peace,
                  >> > Rod Mollise
                  >> > Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain
                  > Telescope...and...
                  >> > The Urban Astronomer's Guide
                  >> > <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
                  >> > brainiac.com/astroland>
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > -----Original Message-----
                  >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>
                  >> > yahoogroups.com
                  >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>
                  >> > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
                  >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
                  >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >> > yahoogroups.com
                  >> > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                  >> >
                  >> > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
                  >> >> 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the
                  > only
                  >> >> way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive into
                  > itself.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
                  >> >> crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography.
                  > If you
                  >> >> are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training for
                  > you.
                  >> >
                  >> > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
                  > star on the
                  >> > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how
                  > to make
                  >> > a
                  >> > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's
                  > software
                  >> > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
                  >> >
                  >> > TIA
                  >> >
                  >> > Tom R
                  >> >
                  >> >>
                  >> >
                  >> > --
                  >> > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or
                  > fewer than
                  >> > 100.
                  >> > -- Steele's Law
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Gapnavigator
                  ... I disagree. Since they are both attempting to command the same motor in every current commercial scope control system I have seen, it can NEVER improve
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 1 9:46 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote:

                    >
                    I disagree. Since they are both attempting to command the same
                    motor in every current commercial scope control system I have
                    seen, it can NEVER improve over standard autoguiding that is
                    functioning correctly. I have seen some custom multiple motor
                    systems on very large scopes where the PEC is handled by a
                    separate motor. Theoretically the autoguider would have less
                    detectable errors to compensate for but I still wonder if the
                    extra design effort and complication provides any real benefits
                    detectable at the focus plane.

                    -Christopher Erickson


                    I tend to agree with John on this, but I would love to hear from a Meade engineer on the subject. I have done alot of rsearch on PEC; especially how it relates to the LXD75's bumpy worms :) It certainy does not compensate for anything except imperfections in the drive. That said, a well trained and refined PEC should allow an autoguider to do less compensating. Theoretically, a well trained PEC with a perfect polar alignment would mean the autoguider would do no work at all in compensating, but nothing is perfect. I have studied the curve my PEC generates on Dick's PEC editor, and then I refined the curve with more data, and more data......meaning more and more ++ updates. It works pretty darn well. It seems that you would have to have the camera in the wrong configuration/alignment with the OTA, or either the PEC not well trained for them to work against each other. My curve never goes above a +3 in either direction in compensation, usually it's a 1 or 2 with many 0's. I
                    personally can only see a well trained PEC helping, not hurting....but I could be wrong. I am going to do some testing to find out. I will try the dsi pro and dsi II c to see how and which works best as a guider. My guess is the pro guiding while imaging with the 2C and my 35mm. The pro just arrived back from Meade, so time will tell. I will do guiding with my PEC on, and then off to see which works best. I have autoguided with the 2C with the pec on and shot with the 35mm with really nice results. I have not tried it with the pec off. Now for some good weather. That has been the major problem this year.
                    Just my experiences, your may vary :)
                    Hulett

                    PS, I could certainly see a second motor for PEC correction being a big plus. If only :)




                    Hulett Keaton
                    Eagle Mountain Station
                    Carpe noctem


                    ---------------------------------
                    Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Adam Stuart
                    ... Hi: I have never read a definitive statement about turning PEC off and letting an autoguider do 100% of the correcting during an imaging session. I have
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 1 11:24 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- Gapnavigator <gapnavigator@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > I disagree. Since they are both attempting to
                      > command the same
                      > motor in every current commercial scope control
                      > system I have
                      > seen, it can NEVER improve over standard autoguiding
                      > that is
                      > functioning correctly. I have seen some custom
                      > multiple motor
                      > systems on very large scopes where the PEC is
                      > handled by a
                      > separate motor. Theoretically the autoguider would
                      > have less
                      > detectable errors to compensate for but I still
                      > wonder if the
                      > extra design effort and complication provides any
                      > real benefits
                      > detectable at the focus plane.
                      >
                      > -Christopher Erickson
                      >
                      >
                      > I tend to agree with John on this, but I would
                      > love to hear from a Meade engineer on the subject. I
                      > have done alot of rsearch on PEC; especially how it
                      > relates to the LXD75's bumpy worms :) It certainy
                      > does not compensate for anything except
                      > imperfections in the drive. That said, a well
                      > trained and refined PEC should allow an autoguider
                      > to do less compensating. Theoretically, a well
                      > trained PEC with a perfect polar alignment would
                      > mean the autoguider would do no work at all in
                      > compensating, but nothing is perfect. I have studied
                      > the curve my PEC generates on Dick's PEC editor, and
                      > then I refined the curve with more data, and more
                      > data......meaning more and more ++ updates. It works
                      > pretty darn well. It seems that you would have to
                      > have the camera in the wrong configuration/alignment
                      > with the OTA, or either the PEC not well trained for
                      > them to work against each other. My curve never goes
                      > above a +3 in either direction in compensation,
                      > usually it's a 1 or 2 with many 0's. I
                      > personally can only see a well trained PEC helping,
                      > not hurting....but I could be wrong. I am going to
                      > do some testing to find out. I will try the dsi pro
                      > and dsi II c to see how and which works best as a
                      > guider. My guess is the pro guiding while imaging
                      > with the 2C and my 35mm. The pro just arrived back
                      > from Meade, so time will tell. I will do guiding
                      > with my PEC on, and then off to see which works
                      > best. I have autoguided with the 2C with the pec on
                      > and shot with the 35mm with really nice results. I
                      > have not tried it with the pec off. Now for some
                      > good weather. That has been the major problem this
                      > year.
                      > Just my experiences, your may vary :)
                      > Hulett
                      >
                      > PS, I could certainly see a second motor for PEC
                      > correction being a big plus. If only :)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hulett Keaton
                      > Eagle Mountain Station
                      > Carpe noctem


                      Hi:

                      I have never read a definitive statement about turning
                      PEC off and letting an autoguider do 100% of the
                      correcting during an imaging session. I have read
                      about refining polar alignment, perfecting PEC, and
                      then engaging the autoguider versus refining polar
                      alignment, turning PEC off, and engaging the
                      autoguider.

                      Thanks.

                      Adam



                      Adam M. Stuart, M.D.
                      Oakridge Observatory (MPC Code H76)

                      Please Visit my Astrophotography WebSite
                      http://www.pbase.com/adamstuart

                      Author of _CCD Astrophotography: High-Quality Imaging from the Suburbs_
                      Amazon.com http://tinyurl.com/393e6v
                      Springer Website http://tinyurl.com/3bexpd
                      Springer Review http://tinyurl.com/2ktlbv









                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                      http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
                    • Christopher Erickson
                      Speaking specifically to PEC in the Autostar 497, which is similar to most other GOTO systems, PEC is a software subroutine in the Autostar and so is the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 1 11:25 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Speaking specifically to PEC in the Autostar 497, which is similar
                        to most other GOTO systems, PEC is a software subroutine in the
                        Autostar and so is the autoguider functionality. The CPU in the
                        Autostar uses both subroutines in its calculations for modifying
                        the rate of speed of the RA motor. By design, the autoguiding
                        subroutine always trumps the PEC subroutine.

                        From an engineering perspective (sorry, being and engineer I just
                        can't help it), a closed feedback loop correction system always
                        trumps an open loop system. Autoguiding is a closed loop system
                        and PEC is an open loop system. One of the challenges in
                        autoguiding subroutines is latency. We want as little latency
                        between the detection of drift in the guide star and the motor's
                        compensation in rate adjustment as possible.

                        Now consider that the CPU in the Autostar 497 is a modest little
                        low power 68HC11. Enabling PEC subroutine while autoguiding
                        is going to do nothing except add latency to the autoguider, which
                        will lower its performance and increase its uncompensated
                        guiding error.

                        Now let us address the fact that the Autostar 497 PEC only works
                        for the RA axis and the Autostar autoguiding functionality works
                        with both axes. Once again, PEC is trumped by autoguiding.
                        Autoguiders can automatically compensate for things like
                        atmospheric refraction (King rate) and mount and OTA flexure.

                        There are some high end GOTO systems out there that sport
                        PEC on both axes but the Autostar 497 is not one of them.

                        Finally, PEC can only compensate for periodic error (repeating
                        errors) in the motor's gear reduction head and worm drive gear.
                        It cannot compensate for random error or periodic error in the
                        worm wheel. Autoguiders can.

                        PEC was invented years ago as an economical compromise
                        for people who could not justify the investment in a full
                        fledged autoguiding system. However since then effective
                        autoguiding solutions have really dropped in price. This has
                        compressed the solution niche for PEC. However it is a
                        fairly easy thing to implement in the software of modern GOTO
                        systems.

                        Quite possibly the entity that has benefited most from having
                        PEC in the Autostar 497 is Meade. It is a good feature to have
                        in the product comparison literature.

                        If I didn't have an autoguider and an off-axis guider adapter I
                        would most certainly use the Autostar 497's PEC feature.
                        But since I do, I leave it off so as to not introduce any
                        additional latency into the modest performance of the 497.
                        It is hard to say how much error will be introduced into the
                        typical imaging session by the added latency of having
                        PEC turned on, but it *will* be there.

                        -Christopher Erickson


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Gapnavigator <gapnavigator@...>
                        Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:46 am
                        Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                        To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com

                        >
                        >
                        > Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > I disagree. Since they are both attempting to command the same
                        > motor in every current commercial scope control system I have
                        > seen, it can NEVER improve over standard autoguiding that is
                        > functioning correctly. I have seen some custom multiple motor
                        > systems on very large scopes where the PEC is handled by a
                        > separate motor. Theoretically the autoguider would have less
                        > detectable errors to compensate for but I still wonder if the
                        > extra design effort and complication provides any real benefits
                        > detectable at the focus plane.
                        >
                        > -Christopher Erickson
                        >
                        >
                        > I tend to agree with John on this, but I would love to hear from
                        > a Meade engineer on the subject. I have done alot of rsearch on
                        > PEC; especially how it relates to the LXD75's bumpy worms :) It
                        > certainy does not compensate for anything except imperfections in
                        > the drive. That said, a well trained and refined PEC should allow
                        > an autoguider to do less compensating. Theoretically, a well
                        > trained PEC with a perfect polar alignment would mean the
                        > autoguider would do no work at all in compensating, but nothing is
                        > perfect. I have studied the curve my PEC generates on Dick's PEC
                        > editor, and then I refined the curve with more data, and more
                        > data......meaning more and more ++ updates. It works pretty darn
                        > well. It seems that you would have to have the camera in the wrong
                        > configuration/alignment with the OTA, or either the PEC not well
                        > trained for them to work against each other. My curve never goes
                        > above a +3 in either direction in compensation, usually it's a 1 or
                        > 2 with many 0's. I
                        > personally can only see a well trained PEC helping, not
                        > hurting....but I could be wrong. I am going to do some testing to
                        > find out. I will try the dsi pro and dsi II c to see how and which
                        > works best as a guider. My guess is the pro guiding while imaging
                        > with the 2C and my 35mm. The pro just arrived back from Meade, so
                        > time will tell. I will do guiding with my PEC on, and then off to
                        > see which works best. I have autoguided with the 2C with the pec on
                        > and shot with the 35mm with really nice results. I have not tried
                        > it with the pec off. Now for some good weather. That has been the
                        > major problem this year.
                        > Just my experiences, your may vary :)
                        > Hulett
                        >
                        > PS, I could certainly see a second motor for PEC correction being
                        > a big plus. If only :)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hulett Keaton
                        > Eagle Mountain Station
                        > Carpe noctem
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
                        > user panel and lay it on us.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Gapnavigator
                        Christopher Erickson wrote: Speaking specifically to PEC in the Autostar 497, which is similar to most other GOTO systems, PEC is a
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 1 12:52 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Christopher Erickson <cerickson@...> wrote: Speaking specifically to PEC in the Autostar 497, which is similar
                          to most other GOTO systems, PEC is a software subroutine in the
                          Autostar and so is the autoguider functionality. The CPU in the
                          Autostar uses both subroutines in its calculations for modifying
                          the rate of speed of the RA motor. By design, the autoguiding
                          subroutine always trumps the PEC subroutine.

                          From an engineering perspective (sorry, being and engineer I just
                          can't help it), a closed feedback loop correction system always
                          trumps an open loop system. Autoguiding is a closed loop system
                          and PEC is an open loop system. One of the challenges in
                          autoguiding subroutines is latency.
                          If I didn't have an autoguider and an off-axis guider adapter I
                          would most certainly use the Autostar 497's PEC feature.
                          But since I do, I leave it off so as to not introduce any
                          additional latency into the modest performance of the 497.
                          It is hard to say how much error will be introduced into the
                          typical imaging session by the added latency of having
                          PEC turned on, but it *will* be there.

                          -Christopher Erickson

                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Thanks Chris for a good post with good info from your engineering point of view. I am still very curious as to how running some tests will turn out. It will take several before having a ~definate! To many variables with to much human error involved for one or two runs to be ~conclusive. Now for the weather!
                          Thanks,
                          Hulett





                          Hulett Keaton
                          Eagle Mountain Station
                          Carpe noctem


                          ---------------------------------
                          Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • johansea
                          Gday Christopher Just a few interspersed points ... Not quite, they cohabitate. The std LXDs have a PEC period of about 4 clock seconds. Ie, when PEC is ON,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 1 2:24 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Gday Christopher

                            Just a few interspersed points

                            --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Erickson
                            <cerickson@...> wrote:

                            > The CPU in the
                            > Autostar uses both subroutines in its calculations for modifying
                            > the rate of speed of the RA motor. By design, the autoguiding
                            > subroutine always trumps the PEC subroutine.

                            Not quite, they cohabitate.
                            The std LXDs have a PEC period of about 4 clock seconds.
                            Ie, when PEC is ON, every 4 seconds the system creates a new tracking
                            rate for the motor, by applying the PEC for that bin to the std
                            sidereal rate. This becomes the new underlying rate
                            and is done preemptively ( which is the important bit ).

                            When guider commands come in, they are by nature "late", but are only
                            applied to the current underlying rate, they dont "replace" the
                            current rate.
                            Thus, with a good underlying PEC model, the system should remove a lot
                            of the underlying error before it happens, thus making guiding out the
                            smaller deltas easier.

                            > From an engineering perspective (sorry, being and engineer

                            Me one too :-)

                            > I just can't help it), a closed feedback loop correction
                            > system always trumps an open loop system.

                            But a closed loop reactive system sitting on top of an open loop
                            preemptive one can be better than a pure closed loop reactive system
                            esp when guiding rates, seeing etc get taken into account.
                            I agree for people that have mounts with very small, smooth PE, that
                            guiding only is a valid choice, but many people have "monday" worms
                            and for them, doing PEC training first, then guiding is far superior
                            to guiding only.

                            > Enabling PEC subroutine while autoguiding
                            > is going to do nothing except add latency to the autoguider,

                            Dont see how, one calc every 4secs wont strain the CPUs ability to
                            service the guider interrupts.

                            > Now let us address the fact that the Autostar 497 PEC only works
                            > for the RA axis and the Autostar autoguiding functionality works
                            > with both axes. Once again, PEC is trumped by autoguiding.
                            > Autoguiders can automatically compensate for things like
                            > atmospheric refraction (King rate) and mount and OTA flexure.

                            Agree with this part 100%. PEC by itself wont remove the requirememnt
                            for use of a guider.

                            > Finally, PEC can only compensate for periodic error (repeating
                            > errors) in the motor's gear reduction head and worm drive gear.

                            I havent opened the guts of an LXD drive train, but this statement may
                            not be correct ( in this context )
                            In the LX200GPS/RCX scopes, Meade have moved to a three turn model for
                            PEC, ( as after three turns of the gearhead, "everything" is back in
                            synch). For the 497s, you can only model one turn of the worm
                            but the repeating freq of the gearbox itself will determine if
                            this allows a common model or not.

                            > It cannot compensate for random error or periodic error in the
                            > worm wheel. Autoguiders can.

                            As noted, the effects of worm teeth transitioning errors alone make
                            guiding a requirement,
                            but in summary, general feedback from many users has been that a good
                            PEC model still reduces load on the guider, esp if you have bad PE to
                            begin with.

                            > It is hard to say how much error will be introduced into the
                            > typical imaging session by the added latency of having
                            > PEC turned on, but it *will* be there.

                            If it is, IMHO it will be swamped by all the other general errors
                            present in a lower end mount like the LXD75.

                            Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia
                          • Christopher Erickson
                            A couple more observations for the discussion. PEC training is done with a temporarily closed loop system that might be done entirely by computer or it might
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 1 9:29 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              A couple more observations for the discussion.

                              PEC training is done with a temporarily closed loop system
                              that might be done entirely by computer or it might be done
                              using your squishy processor in the middle. Either way it
                              was a reactive, not proactive process to come up with the
                              modeled curve. Since autoguiding is a live closed loop
                              system as opposed to a cloned open loop, open faith
                              approach, PEC can't ever be a true "proactive" tracking
                              compensation method. An open loop, "zombie" reactive error
                              correction system (PEC, also called PPEC) doesn't have
                              much of a chance to improve a closed loop, live reactive
                              error correction system (autoguiding).

                              But what the heck. If some people want to believe that PEC
                              is making their autoguider's job easier and/or their astro
                              images better then by all means go through all of the effort
                              to set it up and use it along with your autoguider.

                              My LX200-16" scope features PPEC in both axes and if I am
                              using an autoguider, you can't tell the difference between
                              having PPEC turned on or off.

                              > I agree for people that have mounts with very small,
                              > smooth PE, that guiding only is a valid choice, but many
                              > people have "monday" worms and for them, doing PEC
                              > training first, then guiding is far superior to guiding
                              > only.

                              "Far superior"??? $500 hard cash says that you can't
                              present one piece of real evidence that shows that
                              statement isn't anything except pure, 100% garbage.

                              Apologies for my bluntness.

                              PEC can't help an Autostar 497 system that has a correctly
                              set up and properly functioning autoguider.

                              People who have correctly set up and properly functioning
                              autoguiders would better spend their time working on their
                              precise polar alignment, image stacking, aligning and
                              processing skills, which as a matter of fact, are far more
                              important than PEC and autoguiding combined. A really
                              skilled image processing astrophotographer doesn't really
                              need PEC *or* an autoguider. He/she just needs a lot of
                              properly captured shorter exposures and some dark and flat
                              frames to work with.

                              And no, the PEC of the Autostar 497 simply does not
                              compensate for any imperfections in the worm wheel. The
                              period of the worm wheel is one full sidereal day, after
                              all.

                              "My advice is free and worth every penny!"

                              -Christopher Erickson
                              Network Design Engineer
                              5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
                              Anchorage, AK 99508
                              N61° 11.710' W149° 46.723'
                              Meade 16" LX200 SCT
                              www.data-plumber.com

                              "Monetary contributions to support the
                              Data-Plumber.com archives are always
                              welcome via PayPal to cerickson@..."




                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johansea
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 1:24 PM
                              > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                              >
                              > Gday Christopher
                              >
                              > Just a few interspersed points
                              >
                              > --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Erickson
                              > <cerickson@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > The CPU in the
                              > > Autostar uses both subroutines in its calculations for modifying
                              > > the rate of speed of the RA motor. By design, the autoguiding
                              > > subroutine always trumps the PEC subroutine.
                              >
                              > Not quite, they cohabitate.
                              > The std LXDs have a PEC period of about 4 clock seconds.
                              > Ie, when PEC is ON, every 4 seconds the system creates a new tracking
                              > rate for the motor, by applying the PEC for that bin to the std
                              > sidereal rate. This becomes the new underlying rate
                              > and is done preemptively ( which is the important bit ).
                              >
                              > When guider commands come in, they are by nature "late", but are only
                              > applied to the current underlying rate, they dont "replace" the
                              > current rate.
                              > Thus, with a good underlying PEC model, the system should remove a lot
                              > of the underlying error before it happens, thus making guiding out the
                              > smaller deltas easier.
                              >
                              > > From an engineering perspective (sorry, being and engineer
                              >
                              > Me one too :-)
                              >
                              > > I just can't help it), a closed feedback loop correction
                              > > system always trumps an open loop system.
                              >
                              > But a closed loop reactive system sitting on top of an open loop
                              > preemptive one can be better than a pure closed loop reactive system
                              > esp when guiding rates, seeing etc get taken into account.
                              > I agree for people that have mounts with very small, smooth PE, that
                              > guiding only is a valid choice, but many people have "monday" worms
                              > and for them, doing PEC training first, then guiding is far superior
                              > to guiding only.
                              >
                              > > Enabling PEC subroutine while autoguiding
                              > > is going to do nothing except add latency to the autoguider,
                              >
                              > Dont see how, one calc every 4secs wont strain the CPUs ability to
                              > service the guider interrupts.
                              >
                              > > Now let us address the fact that the Autostar 497 PEC only works
                              > > for the RA axis and the Autostar autoguiding functionality works
                              > > with both axes. Once again, PEC is trumped by autoguiding.
                              > > Autoguiders can automatically compensate for things like
                              > > atmospheric refraction (King rate) and mount and OTA flexure.
                              >
                              > Agree with this part 100%. PEC by itself wont remove the requirememnt
                              > for use of a guider.
                              >
                              > > Finally, PEC can only compensate for periodic error (repeating
                              > > errors) in the motor's gear reduction head and worm drive gear.
                              >
                              > I havent opened the guts of an LXD drive train, but this statement may
                              > not be correct ( in this context )
                              > In the LX200GPS/RCX scopes, Meade have moved to a three turn model for
                              > PEC, ( as after three turns of the gearhead, "everything" is back in
                              > synch). For the 497s, you can only model one turn of the worm
                              > but the repeating freq of the gearbox itself will determine if
                              > this allows a common model or not.
                              >
                              > > It cannot compensate for random error or periodic error in the
                              > > worm wheel. Autoguiders can.
                              >
                              > As noted, the effects of worm teeth transitioning errors alone make
                              > guiding a requirement,
                              > but in summary, general feedback from many users has been that a good
                              > PEC model still reduces load on the guider, esp if you have bad PE to
                              > begin with.
                              >
                              > > It is hard to say how much error will be introduced into the
                              > > typical imaging session by the added latency of having
                              > > PEC turned on, but it *will* be there.
                              >
                              > If it is, IMHO it will be swamped by all the other general errors
                              > present in a lower end mount like the LXD75.
                              >
                              > Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • WarpedCorp
                              Can you tell us who you talked too and what store (phone #)? I called several in the Texas area and they said they would not ship and yet you indicated - that
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 1 10:30 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Can you tell us who you talked too and what store (phone #)? I called several in the Texas area and they said they would not ship and yet you indicated - that they included shipping??? Help us out here!

                                Thanks
                                Warp

                                awallacejr@... wrote:
                                No internet sales. Only the stores that are closing all over the country.
                                Got mine from the Austin, Texas store. $65, including shipping.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Gregg" <starryskyn@...>
                                To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:50 AM
                                Subject: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?

                                > Your Discovery Store must be different from the one I see on
                                > Internet. The only DSI camera is $499 and there are no closeout
                                > sales.
                                >
                                > --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >> The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI's for about $65.
                                >>
                                >> Andy
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> ----- Original Message -----
                                >> From: "Joe McMichael" <jmcmichael@...>
                                >> To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                                >> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:01 PM
                                >> Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> > Shoot Rod
                                >> >
                                >> > Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an
                                > illuminated reticle
                                >> > EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for
                                > guiding, and
                                >> > even
                                >> > take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best bang
                                > for the
                                >> > buck that I've seen for a while!
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > Joe
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > _____
                                >> >
                                >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod Mollise
                                >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
                                >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                >> > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to do
                                > manually.
                                >> > Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated
                                > crosshair reticle
                                >> > eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is only
                                > of use
                                >> > for
                                >> > imaging, not visual work.
                                >> >
                                >> > Peace,
                                >> > Rod Mollise
                                >> > Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain
                                > Telescope...and...
                                >> > The Urban Astronomer's Guide
                                >> > <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
                                >> > brainiac.com/astroland>
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > -----Original Message-----
                                >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> > yahoogroups.com
                                >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
                                >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
                                >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >> > yahoogroups.com
                                >> > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                >> >
                                >> > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
                                >> >> 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About the
                                > only
                                >> >> way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive into
                                > itself.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
                                >> >> crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into astrophotography.
                                > If you
                                >> >> are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
                                >> >>
                                >> >> 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training for
                                > you.
                                >> >
                                >> > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
                                > star on the
                                >> > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know how
                                > to make
                                >> > a
                                >> > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have Meade's
                                > software
                                >> > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
                                >> >
                                >> > TIA
                                >> >
                                >> > Tom R
                                >> >
                                >> >>
                                >> >
                                >> > --
                                >> > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or
                                > fewer than
                                >> > 100.
                                >> > -- Steele's Law
                                >> >
                                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • autostaretx
                                ... However, Meade s implementation of PEC does make it somewhat proactive. During training, you re telling it the error at the -end- of a PEC segment. During
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 1 10:46 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Erickson
                                  <cerickson@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A couple more observations for the discussion.
                                  >
                                  > PEC training is done with a temporarily closed loop system
                                  > that might be done entirely by computer or it might be done
                                  > using your squishy processor in the middle. Either way it
                                  > was a reactive, not proactive process to come up with the
                                  > modeled curve. Since autoguiding is a live closed loop
                                  > system as opposed to a cloned open loop, open faith
                                  > approach, PEC can't ever be a true "proactive" tracking
                                  > compensation method. An open loop, "zombie" reactive error
                                  > correction system (PEC, also called PPEC) doesn't have
                                  > much of a chance to improve a closed loop, live reactive
                                  > error correction system (autoguiding).

                                  However, Meade's implementation of PEC does make it somewhat
                                  proactive. During training, you're telling it the error at
                                  the -end- of a PEC segment.
                                  During "playback", the Autostar differentiates the error and
                                  adjusts the motor speed to -arrive- at that offset by the
                                  end of the segment.
                                  So halfway through that segment, the Autostar has already
                                  asserted half of the previously measured end-of-segment error.

                                  Remember that PEC is theoretically -only- trying to address
                                  worm-waver. Thus it should be a fairly smooth correction,
                                  and the simple methods used by Meade should cover it.

                                  The three-turn measurements made by the LX200gps reveal how much
                                  error is in the rest of the gear train between the motor and the
                                  index sensor on the hub of the worm (they measure the arcseconds
                                  of motor-encoder-measured worm rotation between successive index
                                  sensings). On my own scope, i see +10, +15 and -25 arcseconds
                                  of error in the three turns. That means the index passed by
                                  a bit late, a bit late, and finally a compensating bit early.
                                  Those are numbers as if they were measured at the OTA, so
                                  there's a scaling factor of 180 to be factored in...
                                  that means that the "-25" means the worm was 1.25 degrees "early"
                                  during that third turn.... and that does -not- include the worm
                                  waver itself (mine has a mountain with a crater in it).

                                  have fun
                                  --dick
                                • johansea
                                  Gday Chistopher ... I never said it did. In fact i stressed you still need a guider to allow for imperfections in the worm wheel. Sorry to have upset yr day.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 2 12:25 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Gday Chistopher

                                    --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Erickson
                                    <cerickson@...> wrote:

                                    > And no, the PEC of the Autostar 497 simply does not
                                    > compensate for any imperfections in the worm wheel. The
                                    > period of the worm wheel is one full sidereal day, after
                                    > all.

                                    I never said it did.
                                    In fact i stressed you still need a guider to allow for imperfections
                                    in the worm wheel.
                                    Sorry to have upset yr day.

                                    Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia
                                  • Gregg
                                    The Austin store has closed, at least as far as Discovery Store Customer Service rep says. The Austin phone # is now routed to above. Short of cruising any
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 2 4:22 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The Austin store has closed, at least as far as Discovery Store
                                      Customer Service rep says. The Austin phone # is now routed to
                                      above. Short of cruising any remaining Discovery stores in USA, one
                                      after another for any closeouts, I think this price is not available
                                      any more.

                                      --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > No internet sales. Only the stores that are closing all over the
                                      country.
                                      > Got mine from the Austin, Texas store. $65, including shipping.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Gregg" <starryskyn@...>
                                      > To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:50 AM
                                      > Subject: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Your Discovery Store must be different from the one I see on
                                      > > Internet. The only DSI camera is $499 and there are no closeout
                                      > > sales.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@> wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >> The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI's for about
                                      $65.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Andy
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                      > >> From: "Joe McMichael" <jmcmichael@>
                                      > >> To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:01 PM
                                      > >> Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >> > Shoot Rod
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an
                                      > > illuminated reticle
                                      > >> > EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for
                                      > > guiding, and
                                      > >> > even
                                      > >> > take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best
                                      bang
                                      > > for the
                                      > >> > buck that I've seen for a while!
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Joe
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > _____
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod
                                      Mollise
                                      > >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
                                      > >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >> > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to
                                      do
                                      > > manually.
                                      > >> > Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated
                                      > > crosshair reticle
                                      > >> > eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is
                                      only
                                      > > of use
                                      > >> > for
                                      > >> > imaging, not visual work.
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Peace,
                                      > >> > Rod Mollise
                                      > >> > Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain
                                      > > Telescope...and...
                                      > >> > The Urban Astronomer's Guide
                                      > >> > <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
                                      > >> > brainiac.com/astroland>
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > -----Original Message-----
                                      > >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > >> > yahoogroups.com
                                      > >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > >> > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
                                      > >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
                                      > >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                      40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > >> > yahoogroups.com
                                      > >> > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
                                      > >> >> 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About
                                      the
                                      > > only
                                      > >> >> way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive
                                      into
                                      > > itself.
                                      > >> >>
                                      > >> >> 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
                                      > >> >> crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
                                      > >> >>
                                      > >> >> 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into
                                      astrophotography.
                                      > > If you
                                      > >> >> are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
                                      > >> >>
                                      > >> >> 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training
                                      for
                                      > > you.
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
                                      > > star on the
                                      > >> > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know
                                      how
                                      > > to make
                                      > >> > a
                                      > >> > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have
                                      Meade's
                                      > > software
                                      > >> > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > TIA
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Tom R
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >>
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > --
                                      > >> > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or
                                      > > fewer than
                                      > >> > 100.
                                      > >> > -- Steele's Law
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >> >
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • John Mahony
                                      Maybe not from Discovery stores, but Meade has been closing out the old generation DSI cameras. Many dealers have them for as little as $99, depending on the
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 5 1:06 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Maybe not from Discovery stores, but Meade has been closing out the old
                                        generation DSI cameras. Many dealers have them for as little as $99, depending
                                        on the version.

                                        -John


                                        --- Gregg <starryskyn@...> wrote:

                                        > The Austin store has closed, at least as far as Discovery Store
                                        > Customer Service rep says. The Austin phone # is now routed to
                                        > above. Short of cruising any remaining Discovery stores in USA, one
                                        > after another for any closeouts, I think this price is not available
                                        > any more.
                                        >
                                        > --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > No internet sales. Only the stores that are closing all over the
                                        > country.
                                        > > Got mine from the Austin, Texas store. $65, including shipping.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: "Gregg" <starryskyn@...>
                                        > > To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:50 AM
                                        > > Subject: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Your Discovery Store must be different from the one I see on
                                        > > > Internet. The only DSI camera is $499 and there are no closeout
                                        > > > sales.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com, <awallacejr@> wrote:
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> The Discovery Store is currently closing out DSI's for about
                                        > $65.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> Andy
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > >> From: "Joe McMichael" <jmcmichael@>
                                        > > >> To: <Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:01 PM
                                        > > >> Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> > Shoot Rod
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Right now you can get the DSI for about the same as an
                                        > > > illuminated reticle
                                        > > >> > EP, use it to train your PEC, have a dandy instrument for
                                        > > > guiding, and
                                        > > >> > even
                                        > > >> > take pretty pics if you want as a bonus. It's about the best
                                        > bang
                                        > > > for the
                                        > > >> > buck that I've seen for a while!
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Joe
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > _____
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rod
                                        > Mollise
                                        > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:43 PM
                                        > > >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >> > Subject: RE: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > I wouldn't buy a DSI just to train PEC. It ain't that hard to
                                        > do
                                        > > > manually.
                                        > > >> > Practice for a few minutes (you WILL need an illuminated
                                        > > > crosshair reticle
                                        > > >> > eyepiece), and let her rip. As you've been told, too, PEC is
                                        > only
                                        > > > of use
                                        > > >> > for
                                        > > >> > imaging, not visual work.
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Peace,
                                        > > >> > Rod Mollise
                                        > > >> > Author of Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain
                                        > > > Telescope...and...
                                        > > >> > The Urban Astronomer's Guide
                                        > > >> > <http://skywatch. <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>
                                        > > >> > brainiac.com/astroland>
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > >> > From: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                        > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > >> > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >> > [mailto:Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                        > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > >> > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauschenbach
                                        > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:28 PM
                                        > > >> > To: Meade-Uncensored@ <mailto:Meade-Uncensored%
                                        > 40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > >> > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >> > Subject: Re: [MeadeUncensored] Re: PEC with LXD75?
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > On Tuesday 31 July 2007 18:50, Christopher Erickson wrote:
                                        > > >> >> 1. The danger of messing your scope up is very small. About
                                        > the
                                        > > > only
                                        > > >> >> way would be to walk away and somehow let the mount drive
                                        > into
                                        > > > itself.
                                        > > >> >>
                                        > > >> >> 2. You must carefully and actively keep the guide star in the
                                        > > >> >> crosshairs for the entire 12 minutes.
                                        > > >> >>
                                        > > >> >> 3. PEC only has real meaning if you are into
                                        > astrophotography.
                                        > > > If you
                                        > > >> >> are doing visual only, ignore the Autostar's PEC feature.
                                        > > >> >>
                                        > > >> >> 4. Meade's DSI cameras and software can do the PEC training
                                        > for
                                        > > > you.
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Please elaborate on this point ! Spending 12 minutes keeping a
                                        > > > star on the
                                        > > >> > cross hairs sounds to me painful and error prone. If you know
                                        > how
                                        > > > to make
                                        > > >> > a
                                        > > >> > computer do this, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have
                                        > Meade's
                                        > > > software
                                        > > >> > or a DSI, but that should change tomorrow !
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > TIA
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Tom R
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >>
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > --
                                        > > >> > There exist tasks which cannot be done by more than 10 men or
                                        > > > fewer than
                                        > > >> > 100.
                                        > > >> > -- Steele's Law
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >> >
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >




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