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Buff Scott, Jr. / GCM / Almost!

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  • Robert Baty
    This post is one of three intended to protect and preserve the history of a discussion that recently took place on the GraceCentered message board involving
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 12, 2006
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      This post is one of three intended to protect and preserve the history of a discussion that recently took place on the GraceCentered message board involving the false and misleading statements presented by Buff Scott, Jr. on his website and regarding Mt. St. Helens, the Grand Canyon, and a certain scientist who was noted as making a comment that was published in the National Geographic.

      The link to the public discussion, for as long as it remains, is:

      http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=12290.0

      Substantial progress was being made in our effort to get Buff Scott, Jr. to do something responsible regarding his indefensible presentation. Buff Scott, Jr. had recently been posting on the GCM, and I thought to engage him on the topic; particularly since he was making comments that seemed directly related to what his responsibilities were.

      I will post in two separate posts the two pages of the discussion to date. You will note that, at the conclusion of page 2, two moderators imposed their censorship, shut down the thread, and made unseemly critical comments about what was going on.

      So much for the openness and honesty of the GraceCentered message board and its owners/operators.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty



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    • Robert Baty
      The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!Pages: [1]----------------------------------Author: Robert BatyThe alleged reformer comes to the GCM!« on:
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 12, 2006
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        The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        Pages: [1]

        ----------------------------------

        Author: Robert Baty

        The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� on: Yesterday at 02:08:44 PM ��


        I just happen to have noticed that Buff Scott, Jr., the alleged reformer has recently joined this message board and has already posted 6 notes (I only saw one).

        Some may recall an unresolved little controversy regarding Buff Scott, Jr. and claims he made (false and/or misleading) regarding a certain government employee-scientist.

        Following is the link to Buff's site and relevant excerpts:


        ######################
        ######################

        http://www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Canyon.html

        Mount St. Helens vs. The Grand Canyon

        Mount St. Helens erupted on May 18, 1980. Some years later, a monument scientist examined the hardrock canyon, created by the eruption, and remarked:

        > �����You������d expect a hardrock
        > canyon to be thousands,
        > even hundreds of thousands
        > of years old. But this one
        > was cut in less than a decade.���
        > (National Geographic, May, 2000).

        Rick Presley, a knowledgeable student of geology, says,

        > �����Pretty convincing evidence that
        > the Grand Canyon didn������t take
        > millions of years to form..."

        > Those of you who believe the
        > Grand Canyon was formed over
        > a period of millions of years
        > should re-examine your evidence
        > by examining the canyon formed
        > by the eruption of Mount St. Helens.

        ####################
        ####################

        My further comments:

        The controversy concerns Buff's attempt to quote the National Geographic and the above use that Buff made of his failed attempt at quoting the guy accurately.

        Some with ready access to the National Geographic in question might want to check it out and see if you don't see what so many preachers have warned us about for so many years, and is evident in Buff's attempt to quote.

        I've spoken personally to the guy that Buff tried to quote, and he was not too happy with the way Buff has tried to represent him and what he said.

        Maybe if Buff makes his way over here he will tell us more about that matter from his perspective.

        He's certainly had quite a few months, and many warnings now, to change his website; but he would not!

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ----------------------------------

        From: James Rondon

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #1 on: Yesterday
        at 05:47:35 PM ��


        Maybe I'm just overlooking something... What's the problem here?

        --------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #2 on:
        Yesterday at 07:05:09 PM ��

        (Quote from: James Rondon
        on Yesterday at 05:47:35 PM)

        Maybe I'm just overlooking something... What's the problem here?

        (End Quote)

        Well, I'm willing to let people who don't know and can't see it do a little homework and thinking about it.

        Maybe they will figure it out; maybe Buff will come around and give his perspective; maybe I'll have to spoil it and tell you!

        Before I spoil it, I'd like to see who else might figure it out.

        Here's one hint again:

        > Check out the referenced
        > National Geographic and'
        > compare what is there to
        > how Buff quotes it.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        -----------------------------------

        From: Buff Scott, Jr.
        (aka Reformer8291)

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #3 on:
        Today at 01:03:43 PM ��


        (Quote from: rlbaty on
        Yesterday at 02:08:44 PM)

        I just happen to have noticed that Buff Scott, Jr., the alleged reformer has recently joined this message board and has already posted 6 notes (I only saw one).

        Some may recall an unresolved little controversy regarding Buff Scott, Jr. and claims he made (false and/or misleading) regarding a certain government employee-scientist.������Robert Baty.

        (End Quote)

        Yes, I, too, must ask: What's the problem here? Did I misquote National Geographic on my Web site, or does my brother have a burr under his saddle he's unable to dislodge? I think it must be a burr, for here is the quotation he alludes to, taken exactly as written from my Web site and from National Geographic:

        Mount St. Helens erupted on May 18, 1980. Some years later, a monument scientist examined the hardrock canyon, created by the eruption, and remarked, �����You������d expect a hardrock canyon to be thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years old. But this one was cut in less than a decade��� (National Geographic, May, 2000).

        When I initially posted Geographic's story, I included the name of the scientist. Later, I received a letter from him, asking that I remove his name from the quotation because, he said, National Geographic misquoted him. In turn, I removed his name, and would have corrected the quotation if National Geohraphic had noted that he was misquoted. However, the magazine made no correction. Consequently, the quotation still stands.

        This matter may be evaluated by going to www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Canyon.html .

        Buff

        -----------------------------------

        From: James Rondon

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #4 on:
        Today at 01:27:39 PM ��


        Thanks for clarifying, Buff.


        ------------------------------------

        From: Jerry Brooke

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #5 on:
        Today at 03:28:54 PM ��

        Buff was here before Mr. Baty. He had a different screen name. Can't remember how long ago it was though.

        ----------------------------------

        From: marc

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #6 on:
        Today at 04:04:55 PM ��


        And whatever disagreements I had/have with him, he never started threads on this board to attack another poster regarding something said elsewhere.

        While I, as I've said before, am an old Earth creationist, I thought RlBaty's initial post here was out of hand. I don't see that Buff Scott either misquoted or misrepresented the scientist. The conclusions were clearly those of the second person quoted, not the first.

        ----------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #7 on:
        Today at 04:55:28 PM ��


        (Quote from: Buff Scott, Jr.
        on Today at 01:03:43 PM)

        Yes, I, too, must ask: What's the problem here?

        Did I misquote National Geographic on my Web site...?

        (H)ere is the quotation he alludes to, taken exactly as written from my Web site and from National Geographic:

        Mount St. Helens erupted on May 18, 1980. Some years later, a monument scientist examined the hardrock canyon, created by the eruption, and remarked,

        > �����You������d expect a hardrock canyon
        > to be thousands, even hundreds
        > of thousands of years old. But this
        > one was cut in less than a decade���
        > (National Geographic, May, 2000).

        (T)he quotation still stands.


        Buff

        (End Quote)

        So, no one has actually checked the National Geographic to find where Buff misquoted the National Geographic?

        Of course, the misquote is only a part of the problem; and one which has been explained to Buff on more than one occasion.

        I guess he has a short memory and is so far out he can't actually find a hard copy of that National Geographic to check his alleged source.

        So, let's just see how long it takes Buff to check and admit that his quote doesn't match the National Geographic.

        Then maybe we'll have more to say regarding his misrepresentations regarding what that was all about.

        Since the misquote seems to be rather common, one must wonder whether Buff picked it up from someone else who misquoted or from someone else who copied a misquoted source or if Buff actually misquoted while having the actual original National Geographic source before him.

        Maybe Buff can let us know when he figures out his statement attributed to the National Geographic isn't quite what is in the National Geographic.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        -----------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #8 on:
        Today at 05:15:42 PM ��


        (Quote from: marc on
        Today at 04:04:55 PM)

        And whatever disagreements I had/have with him, he never started threads on this board to attack another poster regarding something he said elsewhere.

        I thought RlBaty's initial post here was out of hand.

        I don't see that Buff Scott either misquoted or misrepresented the scientist.

        (End Quote)


        I don't think the GraceCentered message boards are different from others in that, there are frequent references to public materials with critical comments; particularly if they happen to be political persons. What difference does it make that the public information happens to relate to someone who posts here?

        Can someone say "double standard" and/or "hypocrisy"?

        BTDT!

        That marc doesn't see the misquote or misrepresentation just goes to show what makes this simple, little matter all the more interesting.

        So simple, so easy to resolve and yet the alleged reformer, after lo these many months and previous
        repeated admonishments has yet to correct his website on so simple a matter.

        And you folk think you can solve the weightier matters "troubling Israel"?

        A chance has already been missed here, again!

        However, there is still time, and I'd like to see what it takes to get the alleged reformer to correct his false and misleading claims regarding that scientist and that comparison he tries to make between what that scientist was talking about and the Grand Canyon.

        You guys think you've got the moral high ground and influence. I'm willing to watch and see if you can actually exert a little of that influence on the allged reformer regarding this false and misleading statements regarding this little matter.

        I tried before, and I've tried again here. I guess I don't have what it takes and, perhaps, that Baty-burr the alleged reformer has under his saddle keeps him from doing the right thing simply to spite me.

        You think the alleged reformer would not do the right thing just because he doesn't like me and/or Todd?

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------------------------------

        From: Buff Scott, Jr.

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #9 on:
        Today at 06:11:38 PM ��

        (Quote)

        I don't think the GraceCentered message boards are different from others in that, there are frequent references to public materials with critical comments; particularly if they happen to be political persons. What difference does it make that the public information happens to relate to someone who posts here?

        Can someone say "double standard" and/or "hypocrisy"? That marc doesn't see the misquote or misrepresentation just goes to show what makes this simple, little matter all the more interesting. So simple, so easy to resolve and yet the alleged reformer, after lo these many months and previous repeated admonishments has yet to correct his website on so simple a matter.

        And you folk think you can solve the weightier matters "troubling Israel"? A chance has already been missed here, again! However, there is still time, and I'd like to see what it takes to get the alleged reformer to correct his false and misleading claims regarding that scientist and that comparison he tries to make between what that scientist was talking about and the Grand Canyon.

        You guys think you've got the moral high ground and influence. I'm willing to watch and see if you can actually exert a little of that influence on the alleged reformer regarding this false and misleading statements regarding this little matter.

        I tried before, and I've tried again here. I guess I don't have what it takes and, perhaps, that Baty-burr the alleged reformer has under his saddle keeps him from doing the right thing simply to spite me. You think the alleged reformer would not do the right thing just because he doesn't like me and/or Todd?

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        (End Quote)

        I don't want to add to the divisiveness of this matter by fueling this brother's apparent addiction to bickering, so I will offer one more explanation and then allow him to ride off into the sunset without dislodging the burr under his saddle. I'm not sure why he is "picking on little old me." But aside from that, I will not feed into his divisive spirit. So consider this my final post on this matter.

        He wrote, "Since the misquote seems to be rather common, one must wonder whether Buff picked it up from someone else who misquoted or from someone else who copied a misquoted source or if Buff actually misquoted while having the actual original National Geographic source before him."

        It has been five years since I posted the National Geographic's quotation, and at this junction I do not recall whether I read the story directly or if one of my readers sent me the quotation. I do not now have a copy of that issue. But whatever the case, I am requesting that Robert Baty find a copy of the issue under scrutiny and give us the exact quotation. I will then analyze it to ascertain if I have mistakenly "picked up" a misquotation. For if I have, I will make yet another change in the feature on my Web site.

        Otherwise, Robert, lay this issue aside. I have my doubts that any response I make will satisfy your "longings"������whatever they might be. But at least I tried.

        Buff

        --------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #10 on:
        Today at 10:20:33 PM ��


        (Quote from: Buff Scott, Jr.
        on Today at 06:11:38 PM)

        I am requesting that Robert Baty find a copy of the issue under scrutiny and give us the exact quotation. I will then analyze it to ascertain if I have mistakenly "picked up" a misquotation.

        For if I have, I will make yet another change in the feature on my Web site.

        Robert, lay this issue aside...

        Buff

        (End Quote)

        "This issue", while significant in its own right, is a symptom of what is commonly talked about wherever "young-earth, creation-science" promotions are seriously considered. The movement is notorious for promoting such bogus scientific claims and exhibits little, if any, ability to discipline itself.

        Efforts such as mine are prosecuted everyday, though by folk much better than myself. As long as the "young-earth, creation-science" folks are prosecuting their bogus science, it is a job that is going to be done by someone. I've hardly touched the subject with my "feeble efforts".

        For all the repeated asking, and clear error exhibited in Buff's claims regarding the Mt. St. Helens canyon and what that scientist had to say about it, he would have us believe he is just now hearing about it and is going to do something about it; and, it appears, he is not wanting to correct his misrepresentations but simply to correct the quote!

        Back in the day when this was a hot topic of discussion on my list and other lists, I did happen to pick up a hard copy of the article and put up a file on it in the "files" section of my own little discussion list.

        I guess if nobody is going to do their own work on the matter, they might try checking in to my list and the "files" page for reference. I put it up there when I had access to other real computers and such. My WebTv system will not display it; maybe you've got one that will.

        I think you'll have to join my list to get access, but joining is not known to produce any adverse side-effects. I would like some feedback as to whether or not the file actually displays what was intended to be there. Of coruse, if it doesn't, there is a "sub-title" that provides a hint as to where the quote went wrong.

        Or, you can check the archives of the list by searching under "Frenzen".


        My list address is:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

        Of course, if you want to do some more serious homework on the topic, you might "Google" the terms "Rick Presley" and "Geology". One of the links there will be to a website where Todd Greene has gone in to some detail regarding Buff's canyon problems, including the Mt. St. Helens matter.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        -----------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #11 on:
        Today at 10:27:34 PM ��

        You might even find this similar website a curiosity as well:

        http://www.nwcreation.net/mtsthelens.html

        I would propose to you that they got the quote down better than Buff did.

        If you don't care to visit my site and maybe check out my "file" on the subject, at least you might be able to figure out where some folks are using a different quote than the alleged reformer.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        -----------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #12 on:
        Today at 10:48:01 PM ��

        If you manage to make it around to my own little discussion list and search the archives for the old discussion, you'll find my account of the telephone interview I had with Peter Frenzen, the scientist referenced in the National Geographic.

        In one of the posts I noted:

        > Peter Frenzen, the man to
        > whom the above quote is
        > attributed in the article,
        > indicated to me that he was
        > NOT examining a hardrock
        > canyon formed by the eruption.

        > He was commenting on the
        > Loowit Falls Canyon, a NOT
        > hardrock canyon.

        > Peter indicated to me that he
        > was contrasting hardrock
        > canyons with the Loowit Falls
        > Canyon which was NOT a
        > hardrock canyon.

        > The difference, as Peter indicates
        > is that the NOT hardrock Loowit
        > Falls Canyon was formed quite
        > quickly.

        > That was because it was NOT
        > hardrock that was being eroded.

        Well, I guess that pretty well lets the cat out of the bag!

        So, I guess we just wait to see what it takes to get Buff to figure out his misquote and tell us what he is going to do about the misquote and the related misrepresentations.

        Some may recall it took Bert Thompson, Ph.D. about 10 years to pull his bogus moon-dust promotion from his website; and he did that somewhat clandestinely (but it was caught).

        How much time is it going to take Buff; it has already been a few years now.

        And many other such examples could be given!

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        -----------------------------------

        From: Robert Baty

        Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

        �� Reply #13 on:
        Today at 11:10:04 PM ��

        It might also be worth noting here the following excerpt from a related discussion on the BereanSpirit list (copied by permission, by the way):

        ########################
        ########################

        --- In BereanSpirit

        (excerpt)

        Hi, everyone.

        This is just another one of these weird
        claims that gets started by some young earth creationist and then gets amplified a hundred times or more by repetition in sermons (from preachers who read the stuff), church bulletins, and websites (like Buff's); like the quote Buff used earlier where a comment about a gorge at Mt. St. Helens has been, due to being pulled out of context, completely misinterpreted to refer to a hardrock canyon even though the comment about the gorge is stating exactly the opposite, that the Mt. St. Helen gorge is not at all like a hardrock canyon.

        These out-of-context quotes and comments get started and then will get recycled in YEC propaganda for the next forty or fifty years, such that fifty years later some critic is left scratching his head, wondering,

        > "Where do they get this
        > obscure stuff?"

        Buff is a great skeptical critic.

        Unfortunately, he is not using this same critical approach with his own young earth
        creationist beliefs. That's a shame.

        Regards,
        Todd S. Greene

        ########################
        ########################

        My further comments:

        If you check that out, you will probably find that discussion took place over 2 years ago and that the alleged reformer was directly involved in that discussion.

        Maybe we will do better this time around, though the error(s) may continue to be popularized for years to come.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ----------------------------------------------



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      • Robert Baty
        Page: 2 ... From: marc Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM! « Reply #15 on: Today at 07:24:38 AM » You know, I tend to agree with what Baty quoted
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 12, 2006
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          Page: 2

          ----------------------------------

          From: marc

          Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

          �� Reply #15 on:
          Today at 07:24:38 AM ��

          You know, I tend to agree with what Baty quoted above, and I am familiar with the arguments from years ago (involving Henry Morris, I think), and believe that Mt. St. Helens and the canyon are not comparable. My problem here isn't with the facts of Baty's post, and with the whole idea that he started a thread specifically to attack a post made by a person who is now posting here several years ago on a different website. This isn't discussion; this is a vendetta.

          My problem is that the Apologetics board has become an attack forum. I used to post here quite a bit when the threads involved real discussions instead of insult-trading. But since Baty and Greene have appeared, this particular section of the board has become a swamp.

          I would love to see the Apologetics board restored to an area where Christian discussion is possible.

          -------------------------------------

          From: Robert Baty

          Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

          �� Reply #16 on:
          Today at 07:46:18 AM ��


          (Quote from: marc on
          Today at 07:24:38 AM)

          I tend to agree with what Baty quoted above...and believe that Mt. St. Helens and the canyon are not comparable...

          I would love to see the Apologetics board...

          (End Quote)

          At least marc got one of his "opinions" right.

          This is progress. Progress involves change. Change can be controversial and contentious. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.

          Now it's Buff's turn!

          And if I understand this technology, I'm not keeping the Apologetics forum participants from engaging in a discussion of other apologetics interests according to their own interests, time and talent. I figure the tent here is big enough; especially considering what passes for discussion elsewhere on the board that doesn't have anything to do with Todd or me.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ----------------------------------

          From: Robert Baty


          Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

          �� Reply #17 on:
          Today at 07:51:40 AM ��


          (Quote from: normfromga on
          Yesterday at 11:19:49 PM)

          Thanks for the link, Robert.

          I found it very informative...

          (End Quote)


          You are welcome.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------------------------------

          From: Old Dad
          Global Moderator

          Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

          �� Reply #18 on:
          Today at 02:52:26 PM ��


          I'm locking this topic until Lee Wilson can take a look at it.

          These forums are not the place to dust off old disagreements. Robert has made his charge, Buff has answered, and that should be the end of the matter.

          If it isn't, then conduct the discussion privately, and NOT on these forums.

          OD

          ----------------------------------

          From: Wiley Clarkson
          Global Moderator


          Re: The alleged reformer comes to the GCM!

          �� Reply #19 on:
          Today at 03:25:44 PM ��


          Robert:

          THIS IS A VERY BLUNT WARNING


          I have read through this ENTIRE topic. I have been making a point of not even reading alot of these old earth/young earth discussions because of my own personal feelings and views from 20 years of reading the back and forths between old-age science and and young age science when there is not enough evidence yet on either side to make a deifnite statement about either view. All views, whether long or short age based, are still unproved theory supported with evidence that can be interpreted several ways.

          I have received a complaint about what you are doing on with this topic in regards to Buff. It doesn't matter if you think Buff is wrong or not, you are not the person to be saying anything like you have said at the start of this topic about this subject, especially in regards to Buff or his web site, in this public forum. If you think you have a gripe with Buff and his views on his web site, GET
          A LAWYER AND FILE A CIVIL ACTION, but do not AIR HTEM HERE! If there is a problem with what Buff has on his web site, it is the responsibility of the man who made the quoted statement or National Geographic to take action.


          If you want to remain a member of this forum, you will cease all such or similar attacks on any member of this forum and you will limit your discussion to non-personal material presented in a discussion format that does attack other Christians. If you do not, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED FROM GCMF!


          As far as this matter goes, there is no more discussion on it following this post, whether public or private. There is no defense to what I read at the beginning of this thread. It is a blatant and public attack on a brother in Chirst and it violates the basic rules of this forum which you agreed to when you signed on here. Buff was a member here along time before you were and he is entitled to his opinions just as you are entitled to yours. However, those opinions don't include the right of personal attacks.

          This is the only warning I will give you on this.

          this topic is locked

          -------------------------------------
          -------------------------------------



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