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The Maury Statue Campaign

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  • mathewmaury
    ... People get upset that Dr. Thompson s reputation is hurt because of the unfounded accusations made against him. There are NUMEROUS lists that have kicked
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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      --- Tamara wrote:
      > I think (and I hope he will correct me if I'm wrong) that
      > Robert's point is that Bert at one time claimed to have
      > gotten that information from an unquestionable source, then
      > refused to reveal the source.

      People get upset that Dr. Thompson's reputation is hurt
      because of the unfounded accusations made against him. There
      are NUMEROUS lists that have kicked Robert off. (How many,
      Robert? Can even you keep count?) Even Yahoo itself closed
      Robert's own list for rules violations. Most people accept
      reasoned disagreements, but see no reason to provide a place
      for unremitting, unreasonable slander.

      The topic has been copiously covered on this list. If you
      are interested, check the archives. It seems you have
      accepted Robert's story without checking it out. Many others
      do too. Robert has continually vilified Dr. Thompson for
      years. While people will excuse some eccentricities as cute
      and 'charming', they are not so 'charming' when it unfairly
      damages another's reputation.

      Robert implies that Dr. Thompson has refused to correct
      misinformation. The true story is that much of the
      information Dr. Thompson presented had been gleaned from
      recognized, published accounts of Maury's life -- accounts
      whose veracity he had no reason whatsoever to doubt.

      Upon learning that certain of the statements in his lecture
      were incorrect, he then published the actual facts of the
      matter not only in the monthly journal for which he serves
      as editor (Reason & Revelation, 15[5]:39-40, May 1995), but
      also in a peer-reviewed article in the Creation Society
      Research Quarterly (32[2]:82-87, September 1995).

      Why was Matthew Fontaine Maury a topic in Dr. Thompson's
      lectures? Cmdr. Maury had a strong reliance on the Bible as
      the inspired Word of God. Cmdr. Maury also made multiple
      contributions as a scientist to the field of oceanography.

      There are many memorials to Cmdr. Maury. The University of
      Virginia offers the prestigious Maury Prize in Environmental
      Sciences. Several academic buildings are named after him in
      various cities. Physical monuments dedicated to his memory
      exist in Virginia at Goshen Pass and on Monument Blvd in
      Richmond. The Maury River in Virginia was named in his
      honor.

      In his zeal to honor this great man, Dr. Thompson made some
      incorrect statements in his lectures in describing the
      various accolades afforded Maury. A mistake in the
      description and/or location of a memorial statue does not
      detract one whit from Matthew Fontaine Maury's
      accomplishments.

      There IS no incorrect statue claim. Dr. Thompson no longer
      makes an incorrect statue claim and has not done so for over
      half a decade. There WAS an incorrect statue claim.

      What if Robert's 'think so' is truth and this specific
      statue claim was made up? The terrible consequence might
      have been that a family took a vacation to the Unites States
      Naval Academy to see this statue and couldn't find it.
      Instead they find a building called Maury Hall and perhaps
      see a portrait and a bust of Maury.

      No one attended Dr. Thompson's lectures thinking they would
      hear the history of statue making or an artistic critique of
      William Sievers sculptures. They did not go for a travelogue
      of locations for monuments of great Americans. The
      descriptive detail of a particular statue was inaccurate.
      How was anyone harmed by Dr. Thompson's inaccuracy?
      Dr. Thompson owes Robert nothing.
    • rlbaty50
      ... He must be talking about matters other than what I have been discussing! ... Again, he must be talking about someone other than myself. Is it
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "mathewmaury"
        <sqi7o0hh02@s...> wrote, in part:

        > People get upset that Dr. Thompson's
        > reputation is hurt because of the unfounded
        > accusations made against him.

        He must be talking about matters other than what I have been
        discussing!

        He continued:

        > Most people accept reasoned disagreements,
        > but see no reason to provide a place
        > for unremitting, unreasonable slander.

        Again, he must be talking about someone other than myself. Is it
        slander/libel for someone to accuse me of slander/libel, and that
        falsely?

        He continued:

        > If you are interested, check the archives.

        My suggestion as well.

        He continued with:

        > It seems you have accepted Robert's story
        > without checking it out.

        Here's the "ever so simple" matter we are still waiting for official,
        public word on. Indeed, check it out.

        Bert Thompson, Ph.D. is known to have gone around the country
        claiming:

        > Today, if you have the opportunity to visit the
        > United States Naval Academy, you will find there
        > on their campus a beautiful bronze statue of Mr.
        > Maury. He's seated, both arms outstretched.
        > In one of his arms he holds a globe with the oceans
        > of the world depicted thereon. In the other
        > outstretched arm is the open Word of God..."

        The closest I know of him ever addressing the question about such a
        claim is this which was and is posted to the TalkOrigins feedback
        pages and has been/is posted in a variety of other places:

        > Much of the information I presented had been
        > gleaned from recognized, published accounts
        > of Maury's life and times

        Consistent with what Keith, Bert and their fellows do when grilling
        their fellow preachers, I have simply been asking for the official,
        for the record source of Bert's Maury statue claim. It is one of
        several important questions that Bert and his apologists are hiding
        from. The issue(s), as has been more than adequately explained by
        others (i.e., Todd S. Greene), are not all that important. The most
        important thing has to do with how these fellows handle legitimate
        inquiries when they get caught in their public errors.

        "Mathewmaury" concluded with this:

        > Dr. Thompson owes Robert nothing.

        Well, that is not exactly accurate. He owes me quite a bit, but I'm
        not holding my breath. More importantly he owes the public a few
        things. That's not my opinion of who owes who what; that is simply
        the rules Dr. Bert and his fellows have laid out for us (i.e. Matthew
        7:1,2; James 3:1).

        Kinda funny how just recently the folks over on Gil Yoder's LURList
        are lamenting the problem in trying to get folks involved. I tried
        to get involved once; and look what it has gotten me. No wonder that
        folks more sensible than me don't want to spend their time and
        resources getting involved with the likes of Dr. Bert and his
        preaching brethren.

        What it takes to get the official, for the record answer (with
        complete details) as to where Dr. Bert got his Maury statue claim
        says a lot about what is wrong with the folks who claim to make up
        the churches of Christ. Such information is nice to know.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty
      • Chad Longley
        ... It does seem to me that Bert has no room to complain about his reputation and unfounded accusations. To my knowledge, he has never apologized to the two
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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          > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "mathewmaury"
          > <sqi7o0hh02@s...> wrote, in part:
          >
          > > People get upset that Dr. Thompson's
          > > reputation is hurt because of the unfounded
          > > accusations made against him.
          >

          It does seem to me that Bert has no room to complain about his reputation
          and unfounded accusations. To my knowledge, he has never apologized to the
          two ACU biology professors whom he tried to ruin about 20 or so years ago.
          Yes, it is water under the bridge, and nobody cares much about it anymore
          (the dead horse is at rest), but he did expend a great deal of time and
          energy in an attempt to set the coC all across the country against ACU. He
          might have succeeded if it hadn't been for an attorney in Louisville, KY,
          who publicly challenged Bert's claims and reprimanded dozens of coC
          universities and congregations for getting so up in arms without checking
          out the claims.

          FWIW,
          - Chad
        • rlbaty50
          Bert Thompson, Ph.D. is known to have gone around the country ... The closest I know of him ever addressing the question about such a claim is this which was
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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            Bert Thompson, Ph.D. is known to have gone around the country
            claiming:

            > Today, if you have the opportunity to visit the
            > United States Naval Academy, you will find there
            > on their campus a beautiful bronze statue of Mr.
            > Maury. He's seated, both arms outstretched.
            > In one of his arms he holds a globe with the oceans
            > of the world depicted thereon. In the other
            > outstretched arm is the open Word of God..."

            The closest I know of him ever addressing the question about such a
            claim is this which was and is posted to the TalkOrigins feedback
            pages and has been/is posted in a variety of other places:

            > Much of the information I presented had been
            > gleaned from recognized, published accounts
            > of Maury's life and times

            Consistent with what Keith, Bert and their fellows do when grilling
            their fellow preachers, I have simply been asking for the official,
            for the record source of Bert's Maury statue claim.

            ################################

            The foregoing is simply taken from my earlier post today. I notice
            now that Keith Sisman, on an unrelated thread, has posted a little
            note to Todd Greene's Creationism list. Keith wrote, in part:

            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creationism/message/17232

            > True science does not hide evidence

            Others can pursue the broader context and propriety of Keith's
            comments on Todd's list. I think his effort has somewhat to do with
            the present inquiry here.

            It seems to me that Dr. Bert and his apologists have been doing
            everything they can to hide the evidence regarding Dr. Bert's Maury
            statue source (among other things).

            Keith appears to be with me regarding my efforts to get the hidden
            evidence out into the public square so won't have to do all that
            speculating that Dr. Bert, or his counselors, just made up Dr. Bert's
            Maury statue claim.

            Maybe Keith could bring us his own official, for the record, response
            to his inquiry of Dr. Bert regarding the matter; particularly if
            Keith will counsel Dr. Bert as to the consequences of being
            caught "hiding evidence". I suspect such a circumstance would be
            worse for the wannabe gospel preacher than the scientist.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
          • scott foster
            If Dr. thommpson wants his reputation defended, let Dr. Thompson do the defending. Why should others care if he doesn t want to defend himself? scott ... He
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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              If Dr. thommpson wants his "reputation" defended, let Dr. Thompson do the defending. Why should others care if he doesn't want to defend himself?

              scott

              rlbaty50 <rlbaty@...> wrote:
              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "mathewmaury"
              <sqi7o0hh02@s...> wrote, in part:

              > People get upset that Dr. Thompson's
              > reputation is hurt because of the unfounded
              > accusations made against him.

              He must be talking about matters other than what I have been
              discussing!

              He continued:

              > Most people accept reasoned disagreements,
              > but see no reason to provide a place
              > for unremitting, unreasonable slander.

              Again, he must be talking about someone other than myself. Is it
              slander/libel for someone to accuse me of slander/libel, and that
              falsely?

              He continued:

              > If you are interested, check the archives.

              My suggestion as well.

              He continued with:

              > It seems you have accepted Robert's story
              > without checking it out.

              Here's the "ever so simple" matter we are still waiting for official,
              public word on. Indeed, check it out.

              Bert Thompson, Ph.D. is known to have gone around the country
              claiming:

              > Today, if you have the opportunity to visit the
              > United States Naval Academy, you will find there
              > on their campus a beautiful bronze statue of Mr.
              > Maury. He's seated, both arms outstretched.
              > In one of his arms he holds a globe with the oceans
              > of the world depicted thereon. In the other
              > outstretched arm is the open Word of God..."

              The closest I know of him ever addressing the question about such a
              claim is this which was and is posted to the TalkOrigins feedback
              pages and has been/is posted in a variety of other places:

              > Much of the information I presented had been
              > gleaned from recognized, published accounts
              > of Maury's life and times

              Consistent with what Keith, Bert and their fellows do when grilling
              their fellow preachers, I have simply been asking for the official,
              for the record source of Bert's Maury statue claim. It is one of
              several important questions that Bert and his apologists are hiding
              from. The issue(s), as has been more than adequately explained by
              others (i.e., Todd S. Greene), are not all that important. The most
              important thing has to do with how these fellows handle legitimate
              inquiries when they get caught in their public errors.

              "Mathewmaury" concluded with this:

              > Dr. Thompson owes Robert nothing.

              Well, that is not exactly accurate. He owes me quite a bit, but I'm
              not holding my breath. More importantly he owes the public a few
              things. That's not my opinion of who owes who what; that is simply
              the rules Dr. Bert and his fellows have laid out for us (i.e. Matthew
              7:1,2; James 3:1).

              Kinda funny how just recently the folks over on Gil Yoder's LURList
              are lamenting the problem in trying to get folks involved. I tried
              to get involved once; and look what it has gotten me. No wonder that
              folks more sensible than me don't want to spend their time and
              resources getting involved with the likes of Dr. Bert and his
              preaching brethren.

              What it takes to get the official, for the record answer (with
              complete details) as to where Dr. Bert got his Maury statue claim
              says a lot about what is wrong with the folks who claim to make up
              the churches of Christ. Such information is nice to know.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty






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            • mathewmaury
              ... I am not aware that Dr. Thompson apologized to the ACU biology professors after publicizing their teaching materials on evolution. As I understand Dr.
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                --- Chad wrote:
                > It does seem to me that Bert has no room to complain about
                > his reputation and unfounded accusations. To my knowledge,
                > he has never apologized to the two ACU biology professors
                > whom he tried to ruin about 20 or so years ago. Yes, it is
                > water under the bridge, and nobody cares much about it
                > anymore (the dead horse is at rest), but he did expend a
                > great deal of time and energy in an attempt to set the coC
                > all across the country against ACU. He might have succeeded
                > if it hadn't been for an attorney in Louisville, KY, who
                > publicly challenged Bert's claims and reprimanded dozens of
                > coC universities and congregations for getting so up in arms
                > without checking out the claims.

                I am not aware that Dr. Thompson apologized to the ACU
                biology professors after publicizing their teaching
                materials on evolution. As I understand Dr. Thompson's
                efforts in this matter, he expended time and energy (even
                publishing his efforts in a book) warning of the dangers of
                teaching evolution as fact. You were the one (I think) who
                supplied to this list the web links to the material. I saw
                nothing in them that indicated the lawyer was responsible
                for any effective rebuttal of Dr. Thompson's claims. The
                'challenge and reprimand' seemed to be only off-target
                bluster with no results to show. Lawyer guy complained about
                the spirit of the book and refused to defend the teaching of
                evolution at ACU.

                Is the dead horse at rest because evolution has never been
                taught and will never be taught at ACU? Is it a 'dead horse'
                now because Dr. Thompson made it difficult for any professor
                to continue to teach evolution in the school? Or is it
                because the important ACU financial supporters do not care
                one way or the other about evolutionary teaching?

                Dr. Thompson's efforts seemed targetted against ACU teaching
                evolution. Didn't Dr. Thompson receive his PhD from ACU? Do
                you claim his charges that biology professors were teaching
                evolution was some sort of personal vendetta? What was the
                motive?

                Does this lawyer have some official position with ACU now? I
                do not remember his name but keep thinking it was something
                like 'Daggett'. Remember Mattie's Lawyer J. Noble Daggett
                from True Grit? There does seem to be other sources of
                friction between the colleges and churches that is not due
                to Dr. Thompson's dead horse effort. Is the lawyer actively
                involved now in other ACU- related public relations work?
              • scott foster
                Robert, as an unbiased outside observer, my comment still remains germane, I think. It s simply who cares . I have been to the Navy Academy at Annapolis on
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                  Robert, as an unbiased outside observer, my comment still remains germane, I think. It''s simply "who cares". I have been to the Navy Academy at Annapolis on many occasions for many reasons over th e past 40 years and to be candid, don't know what statute you are discussing. neither did my son in law, Class of 87 when I asked him the same question. So again, who cares?

                  scott (smiles to himself for having once again "stepped in it" lol


                  rlbaty50 <rlbaty@...> wrote:

                  Bert Thompson, Ph.D. is known to have gone around the country
                  claiming:

                  > Today, if you have the opportunity to visit the
                  > United States Naval Academy, you will find there
                  > on their campus a beautiful bronze statue of Mr.
                  > Maury. He's seated, both arms outstretched.
                  > In one of his arms he holds a globe with the oceans
                  > of the world depicted thereon. In the other
                  > outstretched arm is the open Word of God..."

                  The closest I know of him ever addressing the question about such a
                  claim is this which was and is posted to the TalkOrigins feedback
                  pages and has been/is posted in a variety of other places:

                  > Much of the information I presented had been
                  > gleaned from recognized, published accounts
                  > of Maury's life and times

                  Consistent with what Keith, Bert and their fellows do when grilling
                  their fellow preachers, I have simply been asking for the official,
                  for the record source of Bert's Maury statue claim.

                  ################################

                  The foregoing is simply taken from my earlier post today. I notice
                  now that Keith Sisman, on an unrelated thread, has posted a little
                  note to Todd Greene's Creationism list. Keith wrote, in part:

                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creationism/message/17232

                  > True science does not hide evidence

                  Others can pursue the broader context and propriety of Keith's
                  comments on Todd's list. I think his effort has somewhat to do with
                  the present inquiry here.

                  It seems to me that Dr. Bert and his apologists have been doing
                  everything they can to hide the evidence regarding Dr. Bert's Maury
                  statue source (among other things).

                  Keith appears to be with me regarding my efforts to get the hidden
                  evidence out into the public square so won't have to do all that
                  speculating that Dr. Bert, or his counselors, just made up Dr. Bert's
                  Maury statue claim.

                  Maybe Keith could bring us his own official, for the record, response
                  to his inquiry of Dr. Bert regarding the matter; particularly if
                  Keith will counsel Dr. Bert as to the consequences of being
                  caught "hiding evidence". I suspect such a circumstance would be
                  worse for the wannabe gospel preacher than the scientist.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty




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                • Keith@Sisman.net
                  Rob writes Maybe Keith could bring us his own official, for the record, response to his inquiry of Dr. Bert regarding the matter; particularly if Keith will
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                    Rob writes "Maybe Keith could bring us his own
                    official, for the record, response to his inquiry of
                    Dr. Bert regarding the matter; particularly if
                    Keith will counsel Dr. Bert as to the consequences of
                    being caught "hiding evidence".  I suspect such a
                    circumstance would be worse for the wannabe gospel
                    preacher than the scientist."

                    Dear brother Rob,

                    Maybe Dr. Thompson Phd will not talk to Keith, humble
                    school bus driver!

                    Regards, Keith



                    NEVER support your local IRS office, thieving rascals!
                    These are no Robin Hoods, just robbers, hoods and
                    thieves!
                  • rlbaty50
                    ... Yeah, that is part of my little 70-549 hobby, in case you haven t noticed! :o) Keith has now managed to pull some strings on the CFTF list and my latest
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "mathewmaury"
                      <sqi7o0hh02@s...> wrote, in part:

                      > There does seem to be other sources of
                      > friction between the colleges and churches
                      > that is not due to Dr. Thompson's effort.

                      Yeah, that is part of my little 70-549 hobby, in case you haven't
                      noticed! :o)

                      Keith has now managed to pull some strings on the CFTF list and my
                      latest attempt to join was accepted.

                      I posted the following to the CFTF, returning Keith's favor:

                      ################################

                      Keith invited me to join this list (he's joined my own little list
                      recently and been a welcome contributor) and managed to pull some
                      strings to get my "lifetime ban" lifted.

                      I'd like to return the favor, consistent with recent discussions with
                      Keith, and invite folks to join my little list, review the files
                      section and offer for public consumption comments on my list for
                      consideration.

                      My archives are public and anyone can join and/or post (though you
                      have to join to get to the files section).

                      The address for my little list is:

                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

                      I guess I'm moderated here, but I thought I would at least see what
                      interest there may be among the folks here as to one of my little
                      hobbies, particularly in light of the ongoing "big deal" some seem to
                      making over the private schools certain folks operate (i.e.
                      Pepperdine, OCUSA, Harding, etc) and that 1906 census.

                      So, you are welcome to come on over to my place and mix it up a
                      little on the 70-549 issue.

                      It is about 2:40 p.m. CDT.

                      ###################################

                      I don't know if the above will measure up to Keith's high standards
                      for his little list, but at least I tried. Maybe if it posts we will
                      get some "new blood" over here to add some perspective on the 70-549
                      issue.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty
                    • rlbaty50
                      ... Well, acccording to my observations, there is a firestorm going on regarding the young-earth, creation-science movement and the men behind it. Things
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, scott foster <scottfo2@y...>
                        wrote, in part:

                        > Robert, as an unbiased outside observer,
                        > my comment still remains germane, I think.

                        > It''s simply "who cares". I have been to the
                        > Navy Academy at Annapolis on many occasions
                        > for many reasons over th e past 40 years and
                        > to be candid, don't know what statute you are
                        > discussing. Neither did my son in law, Class
                        > of 87 when I asked him the same question.

                        > So again, who cares?

                        Well, acccording to my observations, there is a firestorm going on
                        regarding the "young-earth, creation-science" movement and the men
                        behind it. Things like "separation of church and state" are involved
                        as well as who gets to run our public science education. It's a big
                        deal to many and they "do care".

                        Dr. Bert cares!
                        Dr. Dino cares!
                        Dr. Fox cares!

                        The caring has to do with responsibility, credibility, and
                        accountability when folks like Dr. Bert, Dr. Dino, and Dr. Fox make
                        claims that won't hold up.

                        Being a tyro, I have to stay with the simple stuff. As far as I can
                        tell, nobody was doing anything to put a stop to one of the most
                        popular claims making the rounds amongst the churches of Christ until
                        I happened to start warning folks of Dr. Bert's errors regarding
                        Matthew Maury.

                        People care! They really didn't/don't want to give up the Maury
                        myth, and they didn't/don't really want to accept the fact that Dr.
                        Bert might have been promoting a made-up statue claim.

                        I know they care! One indication is how much time, effort and money
                        Dr. Bert has invested in evading his simple responsibilities in so
                        simple a matter as telling us, for the public record, where he got
                        his Maury statue claim.

                        They care! They care a lot about this!

                        Of course, as the archives here reveal, the Maury statue claim is one
                        of just a few particular items that give us important feedback
                        regarding Dr. Bert's place in the "young-earth, creation-science"
                        movement and the public debate on what these folks and their hobby is
                        worth and what they are capable to doing other than waxing
                        responsible.

                        Others have written books on the more complex stuff. I have to leave
                        that to others. The Maury statue matter is as relevant and important
                        to understanding who these people are and what they are capable of as
                        is the more complex and "pure" scientific issues that are less easy
                        to understand.

                        Sincerely,
                        Robert Baty
                        (yes, I am working on my sabbatical effort)
                      • Keith@Sisman.net
                        Dear Robert, That Dr. Bert made a small and insignificant mistake is no issue in the big scheme of things. This is not rocket science, for exmaple, lack of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                          Dear Robert,

                          That Dr. Bert made a small and insignificant mistake is
                          no issue in the big scheme of things.
                          This is not rocket science, for exmaple, lack of moon
                          dust on the moon proves the moon and all creation is
                          recent.

                          Keith
                        • rlbaty50
                          ... Just another indication of how important all these small matters are. Keith should know by now that the moon dust claim of Dr. Bert was bogus when he
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, Keith@S... wrote, in part:

                            > (L)ack of moon dust on the moon proves
                            > the moon and all creation is recent.

                            Just another indication of how important all these "small" matters
                            are. Keith should know by now that the "moon dust" claim of Dr. Bert
                            was bogus when he started making it and remains so.

                            That is another one of those little details that I have "called" Dr.
                            Bert on and for which he keeps, to Keith's disappointment, hiding the
                            evidence.

                            Long-term members here will recall how Dr. Bert only relatively
                            recently clandestinely removed his bogus moon-dust promotion from his
                            website. Like with the Maury statue claim, we are still waiting for
                            the full details of how that came about.

                            Sincerely,
                            Robert Baty
                          • rlbaty50
                            ... Let us know, Keith, when you are ready to openly, honestly and completely verify whether or not Dr. Bert (or one of his minions; he s got all sorts of
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, Keith@S... wrote, in part:
                              >
                              > Maybe Dr. Thompson Phd will not talk to
                              > Keith, humble school bus driver!

                              Let us know, Keith, when you are ready to openly, honestly and
                              completely verify whether or not Dr. Bert (or one of his minions;
                              he's got all sorts of interns this summer) will tell you so little as
                              where he came up with his Maury statue claim.

                              Sincerely,
                              Robert Baty
                            • Chad Longley
                              ... From: mathewmaury Subject: [Maury_and_Baty] Re: It doesn t get much easier than this! ... The attorney in question, in my
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "mathewmaury" <sqi7o0hh02@...>
                                Subject: [Maury_and_Baty] Re: It doesn't get much easier than this!


                                > --- Chad wrote:
                                > > It does seem to me that Bert has no room to complain about
                                > > his reputation and unfounded accusations. To my knowledge,
                                > > he has never apologized to the two ACU biology professors
                                > > whom he tried to ruin about 20 or so years ago. Yes, it is
                                > > water under the bridge, and nobody cares much about it
                                > > anymore (the dead horse is at rest), but he did expend a
                                > > great deal of time and energy in an attempt to set the coC
                                > > all across the country against ACU. He might have succeeded
                                > > if it hadn't been for an attorney in Louisville, KY, who
                                > > publicly challenged Bert's claims and reprimanded dozens of
                                > > coC universities and congregations for getting so up in arms
                                > > without checking out the claims.
                                >
                                > I am not aware that Dr. Thompson apologized to the ACU
                                > biology professors after publicizing their teaching
                                > materials on evolution. As I understand Dr. Thompson's
                                > efforts in this matter, he expended time and energy (even
                                > publishing his efforts in a book) warning of the dangers of
                                > teaching evolution as fact. You were the one (I think) who
                                > supplied to this list the web links to the material. I saw
                                > nothing in them that indicated the lawyer was responsible
                                > for any effective rebuttal of Dr. Thompson's claims. The
                                > 'challenge and reprimand' seemed to be only off-target
                                > bluster with no results to show. Lawyer guy complained about
                                > the spirit of the book and refused to defend the teaching of
                                > evolution at ACU.

                                The attorney in question, in my opinion, successfully curbed much of the
                                anti-ACU sentiment that was rising in many congregations and Christian
                                colleges. I know that there were some of the latter who used the
                                controversy surrounding ACU as a recruiting tool for themselves.

                                I think the references to these pages on our website came from a reference
                                from LURList. This brought the fact to my attention that these materials
                                were actually on the web. I removed them from the site.

                                > Is the dead horse at rest because evolution has never been
                                > taught and will never be taught at ACU? Is it a 'dead horse'
                                > now because Dr. Thompson made it difficult for any professor
                                > to continue to teach evolution in the school? Or is it
                                > because the important ACU financial supporters do not care
                                > one way or the other about evolutionary teaching?

                                I have read more than just what was on the CRS website. The horse is dead
                                because evolution was never taught as fact at ACU. Evolutionary theory was
                                taught, but not as fact. It was taught because it is something that a
                                Biology student should know about -- whether he/she agrees with it or not.
                                I have read the handouts that were given in those classes, and I assume you
                                have as well. Does it not strike you as odd that only one student of dozens
                                reported to AP that it was being "shoved down his throat as fact?"

                                About a year ago, I received from the then vice-president of academic
                                affairs (for the university archives), all of his materials relating to the
                                subject. This included all records for the student who started the whole
                                mess in the first place. He had been in hot water with faculty and
                                administration several times before any of this took place. Several student
                                testimonials say that this particular student expressed great pleasure in
                                the fact that he alone made ACU look bad. It is apparent to me that he flat
                                out lied about how the evolution materials were presented as a metter of
                                revenge.

                                > Dr. Thompson's efforts seemed targetted against ACU teaching
                                > evolution. Didn't Dr. Thompson receive his PhD from ACU? Do
                                > you claim his charges that biology professors were teaching
                                > evolution was some sort of personal vendetta? What was the
                                > motive?

                                Bert received his PhD from Texas A&M in microbiology, but his BS in Biology
                                came from ACC in 1971. At the time one of the professors in question was
                                not yet teaching here, and the other was on his third year of leave, so it
                                seems to me that Bert couldn't have done it out of a personal vendetta.

                                > Does this lawyer have some official position with ACU now? I
                                > do not remember his name but keep thinking it was something
                                > like 'Daggett'. Remember Mattie's Lawyer J. Noble Daggett
                                > from True Grit? There does seem to be other sources of
                                > friction between the colleges and churches that is not due
                                > to Dr. Thompson's dead horse effort. Is the lawyer actively
                                > involved now in other ACU- related public relations work?

                                Actually, yes, Charles Trevathan (Daggett???) is now assistant general
                                counsel for the university and instructor of sociology. He basically asked
                                for a teaching position, was offered work in the attorney's office, and
                                eventually made it to the classroom. He tells the tale of how he got here
                                to all of his classes, so I've heard it twice.

                                Also, yes, there are many sources of friction other than Dr. Thompson. This
                                was only one such incident. The only reason I took any interest in it at
                                the time (I was in middle school) was that one of the professors was an
                                elder at the congregation where I worshipped. Several families (including
                                some of my friends) left when this first came up, and many of those (none of
                                my friends) came back as more facts came into light.


                                - Chad
                              • Keith@Sisman.net
                                Rob asks Long-term members here will recall how Dr. Bert only relatively recently clandestinely removed his bogus moon-dust promotion from his website.  Like
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                                  Rob asks "Long-term members here will recall how Dr.
                                  Bert only relatively recently clandestinely removed his
                                  bogus moon-dust promotion from his website.  Like with
                                  the Maury statue claim, we are still waiting for
                                  the full details of how that came about."

                                  It was easy, I'm guessing it was deleted with Microsoft
                                  Frontpage.

                                  Keith :~)


                                  Support your local IRS Office and suffer forever....
                                • Tamara
                                  Ah, but you prove his point, Scott. The statue does not exist. That s why you don t know what statue he is discussing. Best, Tamara ... From: scott foster
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 28, 2004
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                                    Ah, but you prove his point, Scott. The statue does not exist. That's why you don't know what statue he is discussing.

                                    Best,
                                    Tamara
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: scott foster
                                    To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:44 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Maury_and_Baty] Re: It doesn't get much easier than this!


                                    Robert, as an unbiased outside observer, my comment still remains germane, I think. It''s simply "who cares". I have been to the Navy Academy at Annapolis on many occasions for many reasons over th e past 40 years and to be candid, don't know what statute you are discussing. neither did my son in law, Class of 87 when I asked him the same question. So again, who cares?

                                    scott (smiles to himself for having once again "stepped in it" lol

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • rlbaty50
                                    ... Dr. Bert s recent, clandestine removal of his bogus moon dust claim ... There he goes again; just like all the followers who have gone before him;
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 29, 2004
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                                      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, Keith@S... wrote, concerning
                                      Dr. Bert's recent, clandestine removal of his bogus moon dust claim
                                      from his website:
                                      >
                                      > It was easy, I'm guessing it was
                                      > deleted with Microsoft Frontpage.

                                      There he goes again; just like all the followers who have gone before
                                      him; speculating on behalf of Dr. Bert where Dr. Bert exhibits his
                                      preference for, despite Keith's objection, "hiding the evidence".

                                      So, let's see. . .we'll be waiting for Keith to document his effort
                                      to get Dr. Bert to openly, honestly, and for the public record, tell
                                      us where he got his Maury statue claim and the true and complete
                                      story regarding the recent, clandestine removal of his bogus moon
                                      dust claim from his website (maybe something similar to Dr. Bert's
                                      expose regarding the bogus "NASA Long Day" story).

                                      While it should not, at this late date, be necessary, it may be wise
                                      to state the obvious. It is recommended that it be made clear to Dr.
                                      Bert that inquiries are for the public record. So many times his
                                      apologists have gone to him and made a big deal about how they aren't
                                      going to tell what has gone on because of some secret pact with Dr.
                                      Bert about keeping things hush, hush, or some such thing. It is
                                      really kinda irritating, after all my "feeble attempts" to have
                                      someone come back bragging about how they've contacted Dr. Bert and
                                      then, contrary to Keith's preferences, insist on "hiding the
                                      evidence" (or just not admitting, explaining, or revealing such
                                      contacts).

                                      So, if Dr. Bert still prefers to keep his secrets, that's fine; Keith
                                      is just encouraged to document that Dr. Bert won't even tell him so
                                      much as where he got his Maury statue claim. If that be the case,
                                      we'll just have to look for someone who does have a little moral
                                      influence so as to get Dr. Bert to give up some of his secrets
                                      regarding these important public issues.

                                      Sincerely,
                                      Robert Baty
                                    • Keith@Sisman.net
                                      Dear Rob, Unless Bert uses Mac for his web design, he will have deleted the offending material most likely with MS Front Page. You asked and I have provided an
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jun 29, 2004
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                                        Dear Rob,

                                        Unless Bert uses Mac for his web design, he will have
                                        deleted the offending material most likely with MS
                                        Front Page. You asked and I have provided an answer.
                                        That you do not like it is another matter.

                                        Keith



                                        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, Keith@S...
                                        wrote, concerning
                                        Dr. Bert's recent, clandestine removal of his bogus
                                        moon dust claim
                                        from his website:
                                        >
                                        > It was easy, I'm guessing it was
                                        > deleted with Microsoft Frontpage.

                                        There he goes again; just like all the followers who
                                        have gone before
                                        him; speculating on behalf of Dr. Bert where Dr. Bert
                                        exhibits his
                                        preference for, despite Keith's objection, "hiding the
                                        evidence".

                                        So, let's see. . .we'll be waiting for Keith to
                                        document his effort
                                        to get Dr. Bert to openly, honestly, and for the public
                                        record, tell
                                        us where he got his Maury statue claim and the true and
                                        complete
                                        story regarding the recent, clandestine removal of his
                                        bogus moon
                                        dust claim from his website (maybe something similar to
                                        Dr. Bert's
                                        expose regarding the bogus "NASA Long Day" story).

                                        While it should not, at this late date, be necessary,
                                        it may be wise
                                        to state the obvious.  It is recommended that it be
                                        made clear to Dr.
                                        Bert that inquiries are for the public record.  So many
                                        times his
                                        apologists have gone to him and made a big deal about
                                        how they aren't
                                        going to tell what has gone on because of some secret
                                        pact with Dr.
                                        Bert about keeping things hush, hush, or some such
                                        thing.  It is
                                        really kinda irritating, after all my "feeble attempts"
                                        to have
                                        someone come back bragging about how they've contacted
                                        Dr. Bert and
                                        then, contrary to Keith's preferences, insist on
                                        "hiding the
                                        evidence" (or just not admitting, explaining, or
                                        revealing such
                                        contacts).

                                        So, if Dr. Bert still prefers to keep his secrets,
                                        that's fine; Keith
                                        is just encouraged to document that Dr. Bert won't even
                                        tell him so
                                        much as where he got his Maury statue claim.  If that
                                        be the case,
                                        we'll just have to look for someone who does have a
                                        little moral
                                        influence so as to get Dr. Bert to give up some of his
                                        secrets
                                        regarding these important public issues.

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Robert Baty






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                                      • Chad Longley
                                        By the looks of the AP website (not the most professionally appearing site I have ever seen), I suspect that he actually has someone coding straight HTML
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jun 29, 2004
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                                          By the looks of the AP website (not the most professionally appearing site I
                                          have ever seen), I suspect that he actually has someone coding straight HTML
                                          instead of using FrontPage , Dreamweaver, etc.

                                          - Chad


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: <Keith@...>
                                          To: <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:21 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [Maury_and_Baty] Re: Who cares, Scott? Lots of folk!


                                          Dear Rob,

                                          Unless Bert uses Mac for his web design, he will have
                                          deleted the offending material most likely with MS
                                          Front Page. You asked and I have provided an answer.
                                          That you do not like it is another matter.

                                          Keith



                                          --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, Keith@S...
                                          wrote, concerning
                                          Dr. Bert's recent, clandestine removal of his bogus
                                          moon dust claim
                                          from his website:
                                          >
                                          > It was easy, I'm guessing it was
                                          > deleted with Microsoft Frontpage.

                                          There he goes again; just like all the followers who
                                          have gone before
                                          him; speculating on behalf of Dr. Bert where Dr. Bert
                                          exhibits his
                                          preference for, despite Keith's objection, "hiding the
                                          evidence".

                                          So, let's see. . .we'll be waiting for Keith to
                                          document his effort
                                          to get Dr. Bert to openly, honestly, and for the public
                                          record, tell
                                          us where he got his Maury statue claim and the true and
                                          complete
                                          story regarding the recent, clandestine removal of his
                                          bogus moon
                                          dust claim from his website (maybe something similar to
                                          Dr. Bert's
                                          expose regarding the bogus "NASA Long Day" story).

                                          While it should not, at this late date, be necessary,
                                          it may be wise
                                          to state the obvious. It is recommended that it be
                                          made clear to Dr.
                                          Bert that inquiries are for the public record. So many
                                          times his
                                          apologists have gone to him and made a big deal about
                                          how they aren't
                                          going to tell what has gone on because of some secret
                                          pact with Dr.
                                          Bert about keeping things hush, hush, or some such
                                          thing. It is
                                          really kinda irritating, after all my "feeble attempts"
                                          to have
                                          someone come back bragging about how they've contacted
                                          Dr. Bert and
                                          then, contrary to Keith's preferences, insist on
                                          "hiding the
                                          evidence" (or just not admitting, explaining, or
                                          revealing such
                                          contacts).

                                          So, if Dr. Bert still prefers to keep his secrets,
                                          that's fine; Keith
                                          is just encouraged to document that Dr. Bert won't even
                                          tell him so
                                          much as where he got his Maury statue claim. If that
                                          be the case,
                                          we'll just have to look for someone who does have a
                                          little moral
                                          influence so as to get Dr. Bert to give up some of his
                                          secrets
                                          regarding these important public issues.

                                          Sincerely,
                                          Robert Baty






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                                        • Keith@Sisman.net
                                          Hi Chad, Zats Y I use Front Page, it s professional and so am I! ... Keith By the looks of the AP website (not the most professionally appearing site I have
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jun 29, 2004
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                                            Hi Chad,

                                            Zats Y I use Front Page, it's professional and so am I!
                                            :)

                                            Keith

                                            By the looks of the AP website (not the most
                                            professionally appearing site I
                                            have ever seen), I suspect that he actually has someone
                                            coding straight HTML
                                            instead of using FrontPage , Dreamweaver, etc.

                                            - Chad
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