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Challenge From Anonymous Hazuki!

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  • Robert Baty
    The Challenge From The Anonymous Hazuki Azuma https://www.facebook.com/hazuki.azumaFrom the Presuppositional Apologetics is Wrong
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 17, 2014
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      The Challenge From The Anonymous Hazuki Azuma"
      https://www.facebook.com/hazuki.azuma

      From the Presuppositional Apologetics is Wrong Group
      https://www.facebook.com/groups/176826508997634/

      The following challenge was posted to the above closed group shortly before I cancelled my membership there after having successfully completed my ministry and documenting that the atheists/deists there are just as apt, maybe more so, as anybody else to be unable to properly demonstrate certain basic, critical thinking skills and engage in reasonable conversation regarding their problems with such fundamental matters as recognizing logically valid arguments. 

      More about that later; maybe.

      The following challenge, I propose, starts out with a lie. 

      The poster is not "emulating" me in the post/challenge, despite the poster's lame attempt to do so. I will, however, provide an opportunity to allow the poster to "emulate" me and so deal with the matters reflected therein. The poster appears to have been adversely influenced by one Bart Verveen,https://www.facebook.com/bart.verveen , a wannabe philosopher who claims to have some expertise in all sorts of advanced logical skills, but demonstrated his best skill was blabbering and blundering on the simplest of stuff.

      (Begin Challenge Post)

      From: Hazuki Azuma
      Date: Thursday, July 17, 2014
      Time: About 7:30 PM MT

      Challenge to Robert Baty

      I am emulating Robert on purpose.
      This is kind of how he talks.

      What a sperg.

      Anyway, I have below an argument that
      I deem him worthy to consider, although
      he is self-professedly a "mere tyro."

      Let's give him our support as he makes
      a mighty effort (if he's not too scared, and
      therefore willing to surrender the victory
      ice cream to me).

      - If Robert Baty is a good man,
      - then Robert Baty has stopped beating his wife.
      - (P1, a conditional, A --> B)

      - Robert Baty has not stopped beating his wife
      - (P2, negation, ~B)

      - Therefore, Roberty Baty is not a good man
      - (Conclusion, negation of P1 via modus tollens:
      - A --> B, ~B, therefore ~A).

      The above argument has been constructed such
      that it is valid, i.e., if its premises are true the
      conclusion necessarily follows.

      Robert Baty: to affirm or deny

      He is also a bad man,

      because he has not stopped beating his wife.

      Robert Baty: to affirm or deny

      (End Challenge Post)

      How the poster might actually rehabilitate the lame effort above to try and challenge me and and actually come a little closer to "emulating" me, step one:

      In my exercises which the poster seeks to emulate, I "affirmed" the logical validity of the arguments I presented. The poster, therefore, needs to include, as part of the challenge, her affirmations or denials.

      Until the poster does that, I have not been emulated on that important, substantive point and need not further respond to the challenge.

      How the poster might actually rehabilitate the lame effort above to try and challenge me and and actually come a little closer to "emulating" me, step two:

      In order to properly emulate me, as to the recent discussions which the poster could not effectively and reasonably deal with, the issues involved "form" as well as "content" and the poster needs to modify her argument/statement to reflect the character of the content I used.

      Until the poster does that, I have not been emulated on that important, substantive point and need not further respond to the challenge.

      Copies To:

      https://www.facebook.com/BruggencatevBaty
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Maury_and_Baty/info

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    • Robert Baty
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 17, 2014
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        -------

        Here is the proposition that got Bart Verveen and Hazuki Azuma all worked up:


        - The following argument is so constructed
        - that if its premises are true its conclusion
        - will follow as true therefrom.
        -
        -- Robert Baty: Affirm
        -- Reynold Hall: Affirm
        -- Matthew Hunt: Affirm
        -
        - First Premise:
        -
        -- If God did not exist,
        -- then Alberto could not get the girl,
        -
        - Second Premise:
        -
        -- Alberto got the girl,
        -
        - Conclusion:
        -
        -- God exists.

        Alberto had used the above terms in an argument, presented somewhat in jest, but which contained a formal fallacy which I noted and put into the above form. 

        And the peanut gallery went ballistic!

        Some will recognize that the above argument is reflective of the type of argument presented by popular Presuppositional apologists like Sye Ten Bruggencate in order to "prove God exists", only they use subjects like "logic", "proof", "knowledge", "uniformity of nature", and even "mailboxes" in lieu of "Alberto & the girl".

        The major point of the exercise is to demonstrate that the problem with such Presuppositional arguments is not with the form; the form is logically valid which means that if the premises are true the conclusion will follow as true therefrom.

        As noted above, there were some rare exceptions to the recent demonstrations in that closed FaceBook group. However, I was longsuffering and gave the members of that group more than enough time to discipline my main, incorrigible adversaries Hazuki and Bart, and they would not. After numerous efforts myself to get them to repent of their course, which they would not do, I figured it was time for me to leave and so did, with my victory secured and my gold medal.

        Alberto, however, still is responsible for the ice cream celebration.

        ------------------------------------------------------
      • Robert Baty
        (Copied from my personal FaceBook page)
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 18, 2014
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          (Copied from my personal FaceBook page)

          ---

          Issuing a challenge based on a lie is a rather poor way to advance the challenge, and starting the challenge with a lie is what the poster did as was noted in the above opening post to this subject thread dealing with important public issues that are certainly worthy of exploration here.

          I have given my challenger plenty of time to perfect the challenge, but the poster has chosen rather to go off-topic twice as has another poster who popped in to pop off.

          Those 3 messages have now been deleted. Those interested in what they said unrelated to advancing the challenge may contact me privately for copies of the texts.

          Now, in order to advance the challenge and cure the original challenge of the lie upon which it was based, the following two, simple instructions have been given to the challenger.

          (1)

          In my exercises which the poster seeks to emulate, I "affirmed" the logical validity of the arguments I presented. The poster, therefore, needs to include, as part of the challenge, her affirmations or denials.

          Until the poster does that, I have not been emulated on that important, substantive point and need not further respond to the challenge.

          (2)

          In order to properly emulate me, as to the recent discussions which the poster could not effectively and reasonably deal with, the issues involved "form" as well as "content" and the poster needs to modify her argument/statement to reflect the character of the content I used.

          Until the poster does that, I have not been emulated on that important, substantive point and need not further respond to the challenge.

          -------------------------------------------------

        • Robert Baty
          ... P.S. The group above is rather strick in its rules of behavior and is managed by both atheists and theists. I don t think they would entertain Hazuki s
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 18, 2014
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             ----

            The challenger made another post which failed to conform to the requirements for advancing the challenge. It has been deleted.


            My anti-Presuppositional ministry has now began its ministry in the following closed group:

            https://www.facebook.com/groups/478919728919402/

            Alberto Gándara, you may want to join and watch the show.

            Others who have not yet joined may wish to do so as well.

            ----------------------------------------------------------

            P.S. The group above is rather strick in its rules of behavior and is managed by both atheists and theists.  I don't think they would entertain Hazuki's antics at all.  I've posted 4 "questions" for that group to consider and provide feedback as to getting some simple, fundamental matters resolved and which are necessary to having a most appropriate discussion of the problems with Presuppositionalism as popularly promoted.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
          • Robert Baty
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 18, 2014
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              ---

              That anonymous poster showed up again and wrote another lie, stating:


              - "Just like Len and BTWN, you're deleting 
              - posts! Incredible! Jesus had a lot to say 
              - about self-serving hypocrites like you."

              The anonymous poster is the one demonstrating hypocrisy and also falsely claiming my my management of this thread is morally equivalent to the antics of those mentioned.

              Now, in order to advance the challenge and cure the original challenge of the lie upon which it was based, the following two, simple instructions have been given to the challenger.

              (1)

              In my exercises which the poster seeks to emulate, I "affirmed" the logical validity of the arguments I presented. The poster, therefore, needs to include, as part of the challenge, her affirmations or denials.

              Until the poster does that, I have not been emulated on that important, substantive point and need not further respond to the challenge.

              (2)

              In order to properly emulate me, as to the recent discussions which the poster could not effectively and reasonably deal with, the issues involved "form" as well as "content" and the poster needs to modify her argument/statement to reflect the character of the content I used.

              Until the poster does that, I have not been emulated on that important, substantive point and need not further respond to the challenge.

              -------------------------------------------------

            • Robert Baty
              -- I am going to try to help Hazuki out and take the subjects used in the challenge to actually emulate the argument I presented and that caused Hazuki and
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 18, 2014
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                --

                I am going to try to help Hazuki out and take the subjects used in the challenge to actually emulate the argument I presented  and that caused Hazuki and Bart so much grief.

                (1)

                Hazuki's Challenge Argument

                First Premise

                - If Robert Baty is a good man,
                - then Robert Baty has stopped beating his wife.

                Second Premise

                - Robert Baty has not stopped beating his wife.

                Conclusion

                - Therefore, Robert Baty is not a good man.

                (2)

                My Argument

                First Premise

                - If God did not exist,
                - then Alberto could not get the girl.

                Second Premise

                - Alberto got the girl.

                Conclusion

                - God exists.

                (3)

                Alternative Challenge Argument

                First Premise

                - If Robert Baty is not a good man,
                - then Robert Baty has not stopped beating his wife.

                Second Premise

                - Robert Baty has stopped beating his wife.

                Conclusion

                - Robert Baty is a good man.

                (4)

                The Challenge Proposition

                - (Robert Baty) is a bad man,
                - because he has not stopped beating his wife.

                (5)

                Alternative Proposition

                - Robert Baty is a good man,
                - because he has stopped beating his wife.

                Now, after the challenger responds to the following, I will follow with my responses and we will, if there is time and interest, be set up to discuss whatever mutual interests we might have in these illustrations.

                (6)

                The arguments reflected in (1), (2) & (3) above
                are in logically valid, modus tollens FORM.

                - Hazuki Azuma - (To Affirm or Deny)
                - Robert Baty - (To Affirm or Deny)

                (7)

                The propositions reflected in (4) & (5) above
                are true.

                - Hazuki Azuma - (To Affirm or Deny)
                - Robert Baty - (To Affirm or Deny)

                --------------------------------------------------------------

              • Robert Baty
                -- The challenger returned again to simply post a profane image and it was quickly deleted. It would appear the challenger has abandoned any effort to cure the
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 19, 2014
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                  --

                  The challenger returned again to simply post a profane image and it was quickly deleted.

                  It would appear the challenger has abandoned any effort to cure the lie opening her challenge and rehabilitate the effort.  I have proposed a very reasonable means for resolving the challenge on a most agreeable and cordial basis. 

                  That proposal remains open to the challenger if the challenger wishes to return and simply post one word ("affirm" or "deny") regarding the following propositions, and I will then follow as quickly as possible with my "affirm" or "deny" as to both propositions.

                  The arguments reflected in (1), (2) & (3) above
                  are in logically valid, modus tollens FORM.

                  - Hazuki Azuma - (To Affirm or Deny)
                  - Robert Baty - (To Affirm or Deny)

                  The propositions reflected in (4) & (5) above
                  are true.

                  - Hazuki Azuma - (To Affirm or Deny)
                  - Robert Baty - (To Affirm or Deny)

                  --------------------------------------------------------------
                • Robert Baty
                  Announcing the Resolution of the Hazuki Azuma Challenege I tried to help Hazuki Azuma out and take the subjects used in the challenge to actually emulate the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 21, 2014
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                    Announcing the Resolution of the Hazuki Azuma Challenege


                    I tried to help Hazuki Azuma out and take the subjects used in the challenge to actually "emulate" the argument I presented and that caused Hazuki so much grief.


                    (1)


                    Hazuki's Challenge Argument


                    First Premise


                    - If Robert Baty is a good man,
                    - then Robert Baty has stopped beating his wife.


                    Second Premise


                    - Robert Baty has not stopped beating his wife.


                    Conclusion


                    - Therefore, Robert Baty is not a good man.


                    (2)


                    My Argument


                    First Premise

                    - If God did not exist,
                    - then Alberto could not get the girl.


                    Second Premise


                    - Alberto got the girl.


                    Conclusion


                    - God exists.


                    (3)


                    Alternative Challenge Argument


                    First Premise


                    - If Robert Baty is not a good man,
                    - then Robert Baty has not stopped beating his wife.


                    Second Premise


                    - Robert Baty has stopped beating his wife.


                    Conclusion


                    - Robert Baty is a good man.


                    (4)


                    The Challenge Proposition


                    - (Robert Baty) is a bad man,
                    - because he has not stopped beating his wife.


                    (5)


                    Alternative Proposition


                    - Robert Baty is a good man,
                    - because he has stopped beating his wife.


                    Hazuki has now made it quite clear that she has/had no intention of doing what she asked me to do. I waited, and waited, and waited, and waited and she simply would not. Even after I provided her with my own positions on the propositions in the challenge, she would not "emulate" me and provide her responses.


                    Hazuki Azuma Challenge Proposition:


                    The arguments reflected in (1), (2) & (3) above
                    are in logically valid, modus tollens FORM.


                    - Robert Baty - Affirm


                    Alternative Proposition:


                    The propositions reflected in (4) & (5) above
                    are true.


                    - Robert Baty - Deny


                    Hazuki challenged.
                    I met the challenge.
                    I answered.


                    Hazuki refused to answer.


                    And so this Exercise comes to reasonable end, though I would have preferred a different, more productive result that might have advanced the conversation.


                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    References:


                    https://www.facebook.com/groups/176826508997634/permalink/878027262210885/


                    https://www.facebook.com/robert.baty.1/posts/540825779357447


                    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulate
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  • Robert Baty
                    ... How timely! Paul Baird (aka Paul Skeptic / MK Skeptic) today justifies my approach to resolving the Hazuki Challenge! See closing moments of the
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 23, 2014
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                      ---

                      How timely!

                      Paul Baird (aka  Paul Skeptic / MK Skeptic) today justifies my approach to resolving the Hazuki Challenge!

                      See closing moments of the following video published today:

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We4Oldy9q5g&feature=youtu.be

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

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