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RE: [M & B] Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?

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  • Robert Baty
    Rick, Thanks for posting that. I don t recall hearing anything about Jim passing on or even being a Harvard grad. He was a welcome addition to the
    Message 1 of 58 , Sep 16 4:29 PM
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      Rick,

      Thanks for posting that.

      I don't recall hearing anything about Jim passing on or even being a Harvard grad.

      He was a welcome addition to the conversations.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty


      To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
      From: w_w_c_l@...
      Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 23:19:28 +0000
      Subject: [M & B] Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?

       


      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "James A. Wyly"
      <jpwyly@...> wrote:
      >
      > Rick,
      >
      > I want to echo what Robert Baty said below and express my
      > appreciation of your efforts as well. You must sometimes
      > feel like a voice crying in the wilderness, to coin a phrase.
      >
      > It astounds me that Keith Sisman would so blatantly publish
      > not only plagiarized "history", but altered, plagiarized history.
      >
      > So far as the pack defending him on ContendingFTF and CFTF,
      > I've given up on them. Shockingly and sadly, most of them
      > are ministers. Their rallying around a proven plagiarist
      > astounds me. My solace is they seem to be few in number
      > with very small congregations. May it ever be so.
      >
      > Anyway, I do appreciate your efforts.
      >
      >
      > Jim Wyly

      Well, Jim Wyly died only about a year after he wrote this
      and I never knew it until a couple of months ago.

      http://dakotatoday.typepad.com/dakotatoday/2009/03/funeral-noticejames-a-wyly-of-aberdeen-sd.html

      I guess none of us ever knew Jim was a Harvard graduate.

      But at least *somebody* has discovered the truth about
      Keith Sisman's "scholarship". See message #17 on this page:
      http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-va/T9MNAGK3EV7VQGJV4

      and message #79 on this page:
      http://www.topix.com/forum/city/royse-city-tx/TTI90G30GNML6QVGJ/p4

      I suppose Jim would also take solace in knowing those "few in
      numbers" have pretty much disappeared underground. He was a
      good guy.

      Rick Hartzog
      Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism

      > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Rick,
      > >
      > > I again want to express my appreciation for your time, talent and
      > > interest in developing this important public issue and keeping it
      > > before our audience.
      > >
      > > This forum is open to Keith and I would like to have him
      > > "come out" and openly, honestly deal with the charges you
      > > have raised against him.
      > >
      > > It would be a good thing!
      > >
      > > For the time being, it looks like your charges are serious,
      > > substantive, and sustainable/sustained.
      > >
      > > The good brethren should be concerned and should be about
      > > dealing with the problem Keith Sisman has apparently created
      > > with his less than scholarly works.
      > >
      > > Sincerely,
      > > Robert Baty
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l" <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I am reposting this to "keep it before the audience" as
      > > > Bales suggests.
      > > >
      > > > The thread is getting pretty long, so to see the other
      > > > messages in which Keith Sisman's plagiarism and erroneous
      > > > historical claims have been documented, click on the
      > > > "First" link in the box of threaded messages below this
      > > > message.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I had written:
      > > >
      > > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism
      > > > > on Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry
      > > > > Denne (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of
      > > > > J.M. Cramp's *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has
      > > > > ever heard of)...
      > > >
      > > > Here is the link to Chapter 9 of Cramp's book:
      > > > http://www.reformedreader.org/history/cramp/s06ch09.htm
      > > >
      > > > Actually, there is so much on Sisman's page about Henry Denne
      > > > that Sisman took from Cramp's *Baptist History* that there
      > > > isn't much need of me going to all the trouble of pointing
      > > > out each place where the plagiarism occurs. All anyone has
      > > > to do is compare the two documents. Sisman either paraphrases
      > > > or quotes word-for-word from Cramp throughout his article,
      > > > gives no reference, and then he has the gall to say he never
      > > > heard of Cramp until I brought it up.
      > > >
      > > > But his material on Henry Denne is not *entirely* from Cramp.
      > > >
      > > > I suppose Keith Sisman will also try claiming he has never
      > > > heard of John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist
      > > > Church, who in 1910 wrote:
      > > >
      > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
      > > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > > | indebted for its establishment.
      > > >
      > > > On Keith Sisman's page about Henry Denne we see the exact same
      > > > text, except Sisman has removed the word "Baptist":
      > > >
      > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
      > > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > > | indebted for its establishment.
      > > >
      > > > See that? Lucy Hutchinson and her husband came to adopt
      > > > *Baptist* views, according to Dowse, but according to Sisman
      > > > they came to adopt *Christian* views. According to Dowse,
      > > > literature was confiscated from *Baptist* soldiers.
      > > >
      > > > Dowse continues:
      > > >
      > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
      > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > > >
      > > > And Sisman follows right along:
      > > >
      > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
      > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > > >
      > > > Notice how Sisman has removed the reference to Crosby being
      > > > a "Baptist" historian? Notice how Sisman, rather than doing
      > > > his research at Cambridge University Library or the British
      > > > Library as he often claims, has evidently just pasted these
      > > > paragraphs off the internet, including the typographical error
      > > > of misspelling "gaol"?
      > > >
      > > > Dowse continues:
      > > >
      > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
      > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > > | Baptist churches in the area.
      > > >
      > > > But what does Sisman say? Again, he removes the word "Baptist"
      > > > and replaces it with "Christian" and "church of Christ":
      > > >
      > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
      > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > > | churches of Christ in the area.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > This sort of thing is inexcusable in scholastic writing.
      > > >
      > > > It is bad enough that Sisman, rather than doing his own
      > > > work just rips it off from others, but copying someone
      > > > else's work word-for-word and altering it just enough to
      > > > suit your own thesis is dishonesty on a whole other level.
      > > > And to engage in this kind of behavior and then deny that
      > > > you have ever heard of these authors from whose works you
      > > > have stolen is, to right-thinking people, simply
      > > > inconceivable.
      > > >
      > > > How do you deal with someone who will do stuff like this,
      > > > someone who, when confronted with the evidence, will look
      > > > you dead in the eye and lie about it, while the protective
      > > > circle of David P. Brown's "Contending For The Faith"
      > > > buddyhood closes around him and begins attacking you for
      > > > daring to question the integrity of one of their
      > > > lectureship hosts?
      > > >
      > > > Brown and Co. must really love that trip to England
      > > > each year!
      > > >
      > > > But, I'm sure we'll think of something...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Rick Hartzog
      > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Here are the relevant excerpts; the original text from
      > > > Dowse followed by the altered text as it appears on
      > > > Sisman's webpage:
      > > > -----------------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
      > > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > > | indebted for its establishment.
      > > > |
      > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
      > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > > > |
      > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
      > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > > | Baptist churches in the area.
      > > >
      > > > from: "The History of Monksthorpe and Burgh," (1910),
      > > > by John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist Church:
      > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/History.htm
      > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/john_dowse.htm
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
      > > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > > | indebted for its establishment. In 1645 John Tombes wrote
      > > > | to several churches of Christ in America, which is the next
      > > > | page.
      > > > |
      > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
      > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > > > |
      > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
      > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > > | churches of Christ in the area.
      > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
      > > >
      > > > -----------------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l"
      > > > <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism on
      > > > > Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry Denne
      > > > > (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of J.M. Cramp's
      > > > > *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has ever heard of),
      > > > > I noticed that Sisman has also included some information there
      > > > > about John Bunyan:
      > > > >
      > > > > > John Bunyan (November 28, 1628 – August 31, 1688), a Christian
      > > > > > writer and preacher for the Bedford church of Christ, was born
      > > > > > at Harrowden (one mile south-east of Bedford), in the Parish
      > of
      > > > > > Elstow, England. He wrote 'The Pilgrim's Progress', arguably
      > the
      > > > > > most famous published Christian allegory....
      > > > > >
      > > > > > John Bunyan was not a Baptist and the church he was a member
      > was
      > > > > > not a Baptist church, but a church of Christ which in time
      > fell
      > > > > > into apostasy.
      > > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Well, despite all the "Landmarkers" through the years who have
      > > > > included John Bunyan among the early English Baptists, there are
      > > > > a number of Baptists today who would agree with Keith Sisman
      > that
      > > > > Bunyan was never a real Baptist, since he, like John Tombes,
      > > > > practiced "open communion" in his Bedford church with those who
      > > > > had never been immersed.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, the question is, then, was Bunyan's church a "Church of
      > > > > Christ" as Sisman uses the term? If some preacher today was
      > > > > holding fellowship with, and offering communion to, people who
      > > > > had not been baptized by immersion, would Sisman say that
      > preacher
      > > > > was a "Christian", and that the church where he preached was
      > > > > a "Church of Christ"?
      > > > >
      > > > > Of course not.
      > > > >
      > > > > In fact, Keith Sisman does not even consider about 99% of the
      > > > > people who *have* been immersed and who *do not* offer communion
      > > > > to unbaptized individuals to be "Christians", and he sure
      > doesn't
      > > > > consider them to be members of any church of Christ. Whereas
      > > > > Sisman describes Bunyan simply as "being to the left doctrinally
      > > > > to Denne", anyone today who believed as Bunyan believed would be
      > > > > adjudged by Sisman to be an "apostate" headed straight to hell.
      > > > >
      > > > > Sisman's use of John Bunyan in his Church of Christ "history",
      > > > > therefore, is just one more example of how Sisman will
      > > > > conveniently overlook differences in faith and practice between
      > > > > himself and these historical figures -- as long as they used the
      > > > > phrase "church of Christ" somewhere in their writings that is
      > > > > all that is needed for Sisman to consider them "faithful
      > brothers"
      > > > > and evidence that his "Church of Christ" existed in England long
      > > > > before the Restoration Movement.
      > > > >
      > > > > That is, unless Sisman is really just a closet Latitudinarian...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Rick Hartzog
      > > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > References:
      > > > >
      > > > > A biography of John Bunyan in which he is not labeled a Baptist:
      > > > > http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/bbunyan4.html
      > > > >
      > > > > Bunyan's 1673 answer to Kiffen:
      > > > > Differences in Water Baptism No Bar to Communion:
      > > > > http://www.mountzion.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-baptism.htm
      > > > > (some pretty interesting stuff in here)
      > > >
      > >
      >


    • Robert Baty
      Rick, Thanks for posting that. I don t recall hearing anything about Jim passing on or even being a Harvard grad. He was a welcome addition to the
      Message 58 of 58 , Sep 16 4:29 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Rick,

        Thanks for posting that.

        I don't recall hearing anything about Jim passing on or even being a Harvard grad.

        He was a welcome addition to the conversations.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty


        To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
        From: w_w_c_l@...
        Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 23:19:28 +0000
        Subject: [M & B] Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?

         


        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "James A. Wyly"
        <jpwyly@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rick,
        >
        > I want to echo what Robert Baty said below and express my
        > appreciation of your efforts as well. You must sometimes
        > feel like a voice crying in the wilderness, to coin a phrase.
        >
        > It astounds me that Keith Sisman would so blatantly publish
        > not only plagiarized "history", but altered, plagiarized history.
        >
        > So far as the pack defending him on ContendingFTF and CFTF,
        > I've given up on them. Shockingly and sadly, most of them
        > are ministers. Their rallying around a proven plagiarist
        > astounds me. My solace is they seem to be few in number
        > with very small congregations. May it ever be so.
        >
        > Anyway, I do appreciate your efforts.
        >
        >
        > Jim Wyly

        Well, Jim Wyly died only about a year after he wrote this
        and I never knew it until a couple of months ago.

        http://dakotatoday.typepad.com/dakotatoday/2009/03/funeral-noticejames-a-wyly-of-aberdeen-sd.html

        I guess none of us ever knew Jim was a Harvard graduate.

        But at least *somebody* has discovered the truth about
        Keith Sisman's "scholarship". See message #17 on this page:
        http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-va/T9MNAGK3EV7VQGJV4

        and message #79 on this page:
        http://www.topix.com/forum/city/royse-city-tx/TTI90G30GNML6QVGJ/p4

        I suppose Jim would also take solace in knowing those "few in
        numbers" have pretty much disappeared underground. He was a
        good guy.

        Rick Hartzog
        Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism

        > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Rick,
        > >
        > > I again want to express my appreciation for your time, talent and
        > > interest in developing this important public issue and keeping it
        > > before our audience.
        > >
        > > This forum is open to Keith and I would like to have him
        > > "come out" and openly, honestly deal with the charges you
        > > have raised against him.
        > >
        > > It would be a good thing!
        > >
        > > For the time being, it looks like your charges are serious,
        > > substantive, and sustainable/sustained.
        > >
        > > The good brethren should be concerned and should be about
        > > dealing with the problem Keith Sisman has apparently created
        > > with his less than scholarly works.
        > >
        > > Sincerely,
        > > Robert Baty
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l" <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I am reposting this to "keep it before the audience" as
        > > > Bales suggests.
        > > >
        > > > The thread is getting pretty long, so to see the other
        > > > messages in which Keith Sisman's plagiarism and erroneous
        > > > historical claims have been documented, click on the
        > > > "First" link in the box of threaded messages below this
        > > > message.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I had written:
        > > >
        > > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism
        > > > > on Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry
        > > > > Denne (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of
        > > > > J.M. Cramp's *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has
        > > > > ever heard of)...
        > > >
        > > > Here is the link to Chapter 9 of Cramp's book:
        > > > http://www.reformedreader.org/history/cramp/s06ch09.htm
        > > >
        > > > Actually, there is so much on Sisman's page about Henry Denne
        > > > that Sisman took from Cramp's *Baptist History* that there
        > > > isn't much need of me going to all the trouble of pointing
        > > > out each place where the plagiarism occurs. All anyone has
        > > > to do is compare the two documents. Sisman either paraphrases
        > > > or quotes word-for-word from Cramp throughout his article,
        > > > gives no reference, and then he has the gall to say he never
        > > > heard of Cramp until I brought it up.
        > > >
        > > > But his material on Henry Denne is not *entirely* from Cramp.
        > > >
        > > > I suppose Keith Sisman will also try claiming he has never
        > > > heard of John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist
        > > > Church, who in 1910 wrote:
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment.
        > > >
        > > > On Keith Sisman's page about Henry Denne we see the exact same
        > > > text, except Sisman has removed the word "Baptist":
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment.
        > > >
        > > > See that? Lucy Hutchinson and her husband came to adopt
        > > > *Baptist* views, according to Dowse, but according to Sisman
        > > > they came to adopt *Christian* views. According to Dowse,
        > > > literature was confiscated from *Baptist* soldiers.
        > > >
        > > > Dowse continues:
        > > >
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > >
        > > > And Sisman follows right along:
        > > >
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > >
        > > > Notice how Sisman has removed the reference to Crosby being
        > > > a "Baptist" historian? Notice how Sisman, rather than doing
        > > > his research at Cambridge University Library or the British
        > > > Library as he often claims, has evidently just pasted these
        > > > paragraphs off the internet, including the typographical error
        > > > of misspelling "gaol"?
        > > >
        > > > Dowse continues:
        > > >
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | Baptist churches in the area.
        > > >
        > > > But what does Sisman say? Again, he removes the word "Baptist"
        > > > and replaces it with "Christian" and "church of Christ":
        > > >
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | churches of Christ in the area.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > This sort of thing is inexcusable in scholastic writing.
        > > >
        > > > It is bad enough that Sisman, rather than doing his own
        > > > work just rips it off from others, but copying someone
        > > > else's work word-for-word and altering it just enough to
        > > > suit your own thesis is dishonesty on a whole other level.
        > > > And to engage in this kind of behavior and then deny that
        > > > you have ever heard of these authors from whose works you
        > > > have stolen is, to right-thinking people, simply
        > > > inconceivable.
        > > >
        > > > How do you deal with someone who will do stuff like this,
        > > > someone who, when confronted with the evidence, will look
        > > > you dead in the eye and lie about it, while the protective
        > > > circle of David P. Brown's "Contending For The Faith"
        > > > buddyhood closes around him and begins attacking you for
        > > > daring to question the integrity of one of their
        > > > lectureship hosts?
        > > >
        > > > Brown and Co. must really love that trip to England
        > > > each year!
        > > >
        > > > But, I'm sure we'll think of something...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Rick Hartzog
        > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Here are the relevant excerpts; the original text from
        > > > Dowse followed by the altered text as it appears on
        > > > Sisman's webpage:
        > > > -----------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment.
        > > > |
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > > |
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | Baptist churches in the area.
        > > >
        > > > from: "The History of Monksthorpe and Burgh," (1910),
        > > > by John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist Church:
        > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/History.htm
        > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/john_dowse.htm
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment. In 1645 John Tombes wrote
        > > > | to several churches of Christ in America, which is the next
        > > > | page.
        > > > |
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > > |
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | churches of Christ in the area.
        > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
        > > >
        > > > -----------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l"
        > > > <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism on
        > > > > Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry Denne
        > > > > (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of J.M. Cramp's
        > > > > *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has ever heard of),
        > > > > I noticed that Sisman has also included some information there
        > > > > about John Bunyan:
        > > > >
        > > > > > John Bunyan (November 28, 1628 – August 31, 1688), a Christian
        > > > > > writer and preacher for the Bedford church of Christ, was born
        > > > > > at Harrowden (one mile south-east of Bedford), in the Parish
        > of
        > > > > > Elstow, England. He wrote 'The Pilgrim's Progress', arguably
        > the
        > > > > > most famous published Christian allegory....
        > > > > >
        > > > > > John Bunyan was not a Baptist and the church he was a member
        > was
        > > > > > not a Baptist church, but a church of Christ which in time
        > fell
        > > > > > into apostasy.
        > > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Well, despite all the "Landmarkers" through the years who have
        > > > > included John Bunyan among the early English Baptists, there are
        > > > > a number of Baptists today who would agree with Keith Sisman
        > that
        > > > > Bunyan was never a real Baptist, since he, like John Tombes,
        > > > > practiced "open communion" in his Bedford church with those who
        > > > > had never been immersed.
        > > > >
        > > > > So, the question is, then, was Bunyan's church a "Church of
        > > > > Christ" as Sisman uses the term? If some preacher today was
        > > > > holding fellowship with, and offering communion to, people who
        > > > > had not been baptized by immersion, would Sisman say that
        > preacher
        > > > > was a "Christian", and that the church where he preached was
        > > > > a "Church of Christ"?
        > > > >
        > > > > Of course not.
        > > > >
        > > > > In fact, Keith Sisman does not even consider about 99% of the
        > > > > people who *have* been immersed and who *do not* offer communion
        > > > > to unbaptized individuals to be "Christians", and he sure
        > doesn't
        > > > > consider them to be members of any church of Christ. Whereas
        > > > > Sisman describes Bunyan simply as "being to the left doctrinally
        > > > > to Denne", anyone today who believed as Bunyan believed would be
        > > > > adjudged by Sisman to be an "apostate" headed straight to hell.
        > > > >
        > > > > Sisman's use of John Bunyan in his Church of Christ "history",
        > > > > therefore, is just one more example of how Sisman will
        > > > > conveniently overlook differences in faith and practice between
        > > > > himself and these historical figures -- as long as they used the
        > > > > phrase "church of Christ" somewhere in their writings that is
        > > > > all that is needed for Sisman to consider them "faithful
        > brothers"
        > > > > and evidence that his "Church of Christ" existed in England long
        > > > > before the Restoration Movement.
        > > > >
        > > > > That is, unless Sisman is really just a closet Latitudinarian...
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Rick Hartzog
        > > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > References:
        > > > >
        > > > > A biography of John Bunyan in which he is not labeled a Baptist:
        > > > > http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/bbunyan4.html
        > > > >
        > > > > Bunyan's 1673 answer to Kiffen:
        > > > > Differences in Water Baptism No Bar to Communion:
        > > > > http://www.mountzion.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-baptism.htm
        > > > > (some pretty interesting stuff in here)
        > > >
        > >
        >


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