Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Dave Foda v. Robert Baty : Logic & Atheism!

Expand Messages
  • rlbaty50
    https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000?comment_id=737431¬if_t=like (venue) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 11, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000?comment_id=737431¬if_t=like (venue)

      https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)

      https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)


      (1)

      From: Robert Baty
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:30 PM MT

      Your delving into logic gets a little above my paygrade, but I noticed where Caleb wrote, in part:

      - I'm curious how theists
      - will respond.

      Well, being a theist, I thought I would comment since I think part of what you are dealing with goes to the issues involved in my Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

      Here's what I would consider 2 "deductive" arguments dealing with the origin of the idea/concept of God.

      The Atheism 101 Argument

      MAJOR PREMISE:

      - IF (A) man was able to
      - originate the idea/concept
      - of God through the power
      - of imagination,
      -
      - THEN (B) man did originate
      - the idea/concept of God
      - through the power of
      - imagination.

      MINOR PREMISE:

      - (A) Man was able to originate
      - the idea/concept of God through
      - the power of imagination.

      CONCLUSION:

      - (B) Man did originate the
      - idea/concept of God through
      - the power of imagination.

      The Theism 101 Argument

      MAJOR PREMISE:

      - IF (A) God revealed
      - himself to man,
      -
      - THEN (B) God exists.

      MINOR PREMISE:

      - (A) God revealed himself
      - to man.

      CONCLUSION:

      - (B) God exists.

      Atheists believe the first argument to be deductively valid and sound.

      Theists don't.

      Theists believe the second argument to be deductively valid and sound.

      Atheists don't.

      (2)

      From: Dave Foda
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:40 PM MT

      Actually, in my opinion (on the first), it doesn't logically follow that because man had the capability to originate the idea that he actually would originate the idea.

      (It IS an anecdotal consequence, but not logically necessary.)

      There is a step missing, in that man would have to have an awareness that he could originate the concept of a god.

      If that step were included (proof of awareness necessary), then it would be logically sound.

      However, the second is logically sound, and is not an anecdotal consequence.

      The conclusion follows from the premise.

      (3)

      From: Eric Rush
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:43 PM MT

      I think the first one has the if/then reversed.

      (4)

      From: Robert Baty
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:45 PM MT

      Dave,

      I don't agree with you regarding the first argument. There are no steps missing for purposes of the argument as it represents the implicit and/or explicit claims of the atheist.

      The atheist does not allow that God revealed himself to man or that it is reasonable that man, without such revelation, has a reasonable basis for concluding that God exists.

      As was the issue in the Campbell-Owen Debate on that subject, the options are "reason", "revelation" or "imagination". The atheist is stuck with "imagination" and my argument logically reflects how that position deductively looks.

      Atheists believe it implicitly and/or explicitly, but the evidence they have doesn't quite reach that far.

      (5)

      From: Eric Rush
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:48 PM MT

      I think the second should read as the minor premise:

      - "some men think god
      - has revealed himself."

      conclusion: none can be made

      (6)

      From: Eric Rush
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:50 PM MT

      Playing fast and loose with the meaning of "reveal."

      (7)

      From: Robert Baty
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:53 PM MT

      Eric, I will see if Dave is able to take the lead in helping you through the basics.

      Otherwise, you might consider visiting the site referenced earlier for the Atheism 101 Exercise and participating there in that simple 6 question Exercise.

      (8)

      From: Eric Rush
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 55 PM MT

      I'll chk it out Robert.
      TY

      (9)

      From: Robert Baty
      Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013
      Time: About 11:56

      I can't match Dave's late night tendencies, so I'm giving it up for now.

      ----------------------------
    • rlbaty50
      ... You ll have to go to the venue link for the full discussion. I am just trying to preserve what I consider the substantive part of the discussion in
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 12, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        ---

        You'll have to go to the venue link for the full discussion. I am just trying to preserve what I consider the substantive part of the discussion in separate venues (i.e., my FaceBook page and YAHOO! group).

        https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
        http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

        https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)

        https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)

        (10)

        From: Dave Foda
        Date: Monday, August 12, 2013
        Time: About 1:00 AM MT

        I think that many atheists are ignorant of the necessary tangents associated with the first, and probably don't know how to communicate their positions very well.

        (I see this all the time.)

        But, I am an atheist, and I do not believe it implicitly or explicitly.

        Consciousness and motivation are as valid as ability here, and the two must be considered together.

        Maybe, if it was such that:

        - IF (A) man was able to
        - originate the idea/concept
        - of God through the power
        - of imagination, and had the
        - awareness to know it, and
        - the motivation to assume
        - the responsibility,
        -
        - THEN (B) man did originate
        - the idea/concept of God
        - through the power of
        - imagination......

        I might be more inclined to examine it.

        (11)

        From: Dave Foda
        Date: Monday, August 12, 2013
        Time: About 1:05 AM MT

        I actually know where Robert is coming from, Eric.

        Robert is a Christian, a highly intelligent person, a former IRS Appeals Agent (who ridicules the notion that religious organizations get special tax treatment), and who has done some rather extensive work for the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which has actually led to one - or perhaps more - court cases involving tax-exemption for religious organizations.

        Does this mean that I give him a pass?

        No.

        I trust his take and his leanings on matters of taxation - as he succinctly illustrated on a recent radio show he appeared on - to be logically sound.

        That said, while I do consider him a sort of expert in that arena, I will treat his views on logic with the same deference I treat anyone else's including yours.

        His critical thinking exercise is worthy, but in ways that we - and, maybe he - might not expect, and it's worth taking a look at.

        (12)

        From: Robert Baty
        Date: Monday, August 12, 2013
        Time: About 12:20 PM MT

        Dave,

        I think it was with reference to the major premise of my Atheism 101 argument that you wrote:

        - I (Dave Foda) do not believe
        - it implicitly or explicitly.

        I will be considering you, Dave, as a representative of the common atheist viewpoint except where you are explicit in distancing yourself therefrom.

        You, Dave, may control what explicit claims you may make, but you do not get to decide the implications of your position or that of other atheists generally and/or explicitly.

        Since the subject is broadly speaking that of logic or critical thinking, we might consider that atheism/theism are merely convenient subjects to use in illustrating the points we may wish to make regarding logic/critical thinking.

        (A)

        Atheists are commonly observed to propose that the idea/concept of God originated through the process of man's imaginative skills.

        So, let's start with the atheists' conclusion:

        - CONCLUSION:
        -
        - Man originated the
        - idea/concept of God through
        - the power of imagination.

        (B)

        Implicit in such a claim is that man possessed such power.

        So, let's use that as the atheists' minor premise:

        - MINOR PREMISE:
        -
        - Man was able to originate
        - the idea/concept of God
        - through the power of
        - imagination.

        (C)

        Now, having the conclusion and minor premise, it is a rather simple matter to formulate the major premise and complete the construction of a deductively valid argument that is implicit in the claim common to atheists:

        - MAJOR PREMISE:
        -
        - IF (A) man was able to
        - originate the idea/concept
        - of God through the power
        - of imagination,
        -
        - THEN (B) man did originate
        - the idea/concept of God
        - through the power of
        - imagination.

        Nothing particularly controversial in that little exercise.

        That's logic!
        That's critical thinking!

        That's the argument atheists are stuck with whether they are explicit in accepting it or do so simply by implication.

        If you are inclined to quibble a bit about it, we might just agree to consider it to be what Antony G.N. Flew might call the "BOLD" atheist argument, for only bold atheists would conclude man just dreamed up God one day in the long ago.

        I think one of the utilitarian aspects of such an exercise as this is to set up what is an affirmative position for the atheists who are typically seen to be quite reluctant regarding their affirmative position(s).

        Another one is to illustrate that, despite protestations, atheists can be seen to explicitly and/or implicitly believe something that goes beyond the reach of the kind of evidence they otherwise demand. That is, the major and minor premises can be believed to be true but the atheists cannot demonstrate their truth based on such evidence as they value.

        --------------------------------
      • rlbaty50
        ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          ---

          https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
          http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

          https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
          https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
          https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)


          (13)

          From: Allens Friend
          Date: Monday, August 19, 2013
          Time: About 12:15 PM MT

          If there were no theists, I would not be an atheist.

          I'd just be a person with no concept of gods.

          Babies have no concepts of gods yet, so they are not atheists.

          This seems to bug a lot of atheists, and I'm not sure why.

          Maybe some of them think saying a baby is not an atheist means the person is saying it is a theist?

          No, it means it has yet to have the concepts of gods introduced to it, like everything else inthe world, and thus has no opinion either way.

          Not a theist.
          Not an atheist.
          Just a little tiny human.

          (14)

          From: Robert Baty
          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
          Time: About 11:15 AM MT

          Allens Friend wrote, in part:

          - If there were no theists,
          - I would not be an atheist.
          -
          - I'd just be a person with
          - no concept of gods.

          That is consistent with one of the points I try to make with my Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise.

          That is, that one of the implications of not believing in any God/gods (atheism) is that someone in the long ago just "imagined" original idea/concept.

          It was not by revelation.
          It was not by reason.

          It was by imagination.

          Some atheists are explicit in admitting to the implication; others not so much.

          Allens Friend implies that he has some concept/idea of God/gods because it was first revealed to him (i.e., someone told him).

          Allens Friend implies he could not have originated the idea/concept of God with his imagination and it certainly is not something he could have reasoned into existence.

          I'll take all of that as an endorsement as to the merits of my Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise.

          ----------------------------------
        • rlbaty50
          ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            ---

            https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
            http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

            https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
            https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
            https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
            https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

            (15)

            From: Claude Lebeau
            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
            Time: About 11:30 AM MT

            The idea/concept of a god was first created by one individual.

            It is unreasonable to assume that someone else could not.

            How do you think so many different concepts of deities exist?

            'a' - without
            'theism' - belief in deities

            Doesn't get much clearer than that, really.

            It matters not why one is without theism.

            It is a state of being, not a process towards a state of being.

            (16)

            From: Robert Baty
            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
            Time: About 11:35 AM MT

            Claude, thanks for your more explicit admission that there are atheists who "believe" both that man had the power and did, in fact, originate the idea/concept of God/gods through imagination.

            (17)

            From: Claude Lebeau
            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
            Time: About 12:20 PM MT

            Can you elaborate on what you're intending with the use of 'admission'?

            (18)

            From: Robert Baty
            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
            Time: About 12:45 PM MT

            Claude, you wrote, in part:

            - The idea/concept of a god was
            - first created by one individual.
            -
            - It is unreasonable to assume
            - that someone else could not.

            Sometimes when I propose that atheists implicitly, if not explicitly, believe that man had the power and did, in fact, originate the idea/concept of God through imagination it is called into question.

            You seem to have explicitly endorsed my claim; the "admission".

            ----------------------------
          • rlbaty50
            ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              ---

              https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
              http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

              https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
              https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
              https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
              https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

              (19)

              From: Claude LeBeau
              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
              Time: About 1:10 PM MT

              What arguments are used to call an obvious fact into question?

              (20)

              From: Robert Baty
              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
              Time: About 1:20 PM MT

              While arguments may be proposed in support of an obvious fact, I will not chase that rabbit at this time.

              You, Claude, have made it clear (explicit) that atheists believe, and even believe so strongly as to think it an obvious fact (which they cannot demonstrate), that man had the power and did originate the idea/concept of God through imagination.

              The "obvious fact" is not that man just imagined up God, but that atheists believe it to be so.

              -------------------------------------
            • rlbaty50
              ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                ---

                https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                (21)

                From: Claude LeBeau
                Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                Time: About 1:35 PM MT

                Robert, all human concepts originate with human cognition.

                It is completely silly and unreasonable to suggest otherwise.

                You keep saying that atheists 'believe', and that it's an 'admission'. I can only deduce from this that you're a theist, and you somehow feel that this is a point in favor of theism.

                You don't want to 'chase the rabbit'?

                You're the one casting your implications about, yet you're not willing to elaborate on just what it is you're saying?

                Stop skirting the issue, and get to the point.

                Why do you emphasize 'believe' and 'admission'?

                What is it about 'believe' that you feel makes your case (which you've yet to even indicate) any stronger?

                Do you even understand the difference between 'belief' and 'faith'?

                (22)

                From: Robert Baty
                Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                Time: About 1:50 PM MT

                Claude,

                I have been around that bush a few times in the promotion of my Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise.

                Maybe you should consider trying to successfully complete it instead of making the simple matter more difficult than it need be.

                Claude, you (and others similarly situated) have made it clear that you "believe"/"think" that man had the power and originated the idea/concept of God by imagination.

                I appreciate that explicit "admission"; some try to fuss about that obvious fact when I bring it up.

                Some even try to deny that my Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise argument, which sets forth that position in valid, logical form, has some kind of flaw/fallacy/error in it.

                You, Claude, have demonstrated that my Exercise and argument are just such I propose for them.

                If you wish to try and successfully complete the simple, 6 "yes/no" question exercise, here's a link:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

                You can respond there by simply addressing an email message to:

                Maury_and_Batya@yahoogroups.com

                ---------------------------------
                ---------------------------------
              • rlbaty50
                ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  ---

                  https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                  http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                  https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                  https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                  https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                  https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                  (23)

                  From: Claude Lebeau
                  Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                  Time: About 2:00 PM MT

                  You call it an argument?

                  You are simply answering questions with a 'yes' answer, providing no argument for which these 'yes' answers create a support structure.

                  (24)

                  From: Claude Lebeau
                  Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                  Time: About 2:01 PM MT

                  Can you do that?
                  It's called 'getting to the point'.

                  (25)

                  From: Robert Baty
                  Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                  Time: About 2:05 PM MT

                  Claude Lebeau,

                  Is it the case that you actually looked at the message at that link and did not recognize the modus ponens form argument which is the base of the Exercise?

                  That's why I try to keep my part in such discussions very, very simple.

                  Right above those questions is a modus ponens form argument which reflects the fundamental atheist position regarding the origin of the idea/concept of God.

                  It consists of a major premise, minor premise and conclusion as so labeled there.

                  Really, Claude, did you miss it in your review of the message at the link?

                  If you didn't miss it, did you not recognize it for what it is?

                  Otherwise, Claude, you made one or more of my points already and have repeatedly confirmed it. I thank you for your contribution.

                  It's up to you if you wish to try and pursue a further discussion of such things with me.

                  --------------------------------
                • rlbaty50
                  ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ---

                    https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                    http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                    https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                    https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                    https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                    https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                    (26)

                    From: Claude Lebeau
                    Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                    Time: About 2:10 PM MT

                    I'm asking you to get to the point.

                    You're making several assumptions about me and what I believe, forming your statements, and thanking me for confirming them.

                    Lay it out, man.

                    I have a question for you:

                    Do you have anything in your theist 'toolbox' to suggest that human concepts are or have originated anywhere other than from human cognition?

                    Other than a baseless claim, that is.

                    (27)

                    From: Claude Lebeau
                    Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                    Time: About 2:15 PM MT

                    And please, dispense with the smug condescension; it is unbecoming.

                    (28)

                    From: Robert Baty
                    Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                    Time: 2:17 PM MT

                    I have repeatedly gotten to the point, Claude.

                    Maybe someone else will have to help you get over your problem if you can't figure it out for yourself.

                    I notice that you have yet to offer your simple, "yes/no" answers to those 6 questions in the Exercise. You have my answers, and your answers might form a basis for a further discussion of your struggling with the matter.

                    It's not like there is any big controversy here; as you have indicated, I am dealing with "obvious facts":

                    Claude Lebeau has been explicit in claiming that atheists believe that man had the ability to and did originate the idea/concept of God through imagination.

                    Theists don't believe that.

                    The claims I make for my Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise have been vindicated again...with Claude's demonstration.

                    ----------------------------------
                  • rlbaty50
                    ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ---

                      https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                      http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                      https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                      https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                      https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                      https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                      Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

                      (29)

                      From: Claude Lebeau
                      Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                      Time: About 2:20 PM MT

                      Your questions don't apply to me; I'm not one of these 'bold' atheists you're referring to in your preamble.

                      (30)

                      From: Claude Lebeau
                      Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                      Time: About 2:21 PM MT

                      I am asking you to explain how/what it means to you that I am 100% certain that all human concepts originated with human cognition, and why you feel this is somehow a point in favor of theism.

                      (31)

                      From: Robert Baty
                      Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                      Time: About 2:25 PM MT

                      Claude,

                      The Exercise is just what you need to demonstrate your critical thinking skills and maybe compel me to take you more seriously.

                      One does not have to be a "bold atheist" to successfully complete the Exercise.

                      After all, Claude, I am a theist and I successfully completed the Exercise.

                      Cough up your 6 "yes/no" answers, Claude, and then maybe we can talk further about the matter under consideration.

                      ----------------------------------
                    • rlbaty50
                      ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ---

                        https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                        http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                        https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                        https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                        https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                        https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                        Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

                        (32)

                        From: Claude Lebeau
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:35 PM MT

                        I've already made my assertion, which answers all your questions.
                        Now how about getting to that point?

                        (33)

                        From: Robert Baty
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:36 PM MT

                        Run, Claude, run!

                        Get back to me when you are ready to let me walk you through the Exercise one reasonable step at a time.

                        Otherwise, I have just been distracted by the posted story out of The Tennessean dealing with the developing news story about that FFRF IRC 107 Challenge and the DOJ wanting to treat atheism as a religion:

                        http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130820/NEWS06
                        /308200069?nclick_check=1

                        (34)

                        From: Claude Lebeau
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:38 PM MT

                        Pigeon chess, then?
                        That's all you've got?
                        Go, then, and crap on someone else' board.

                        (35)

                        From: Robert Baty
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:40 PM MT

                        Thou, Claude, art the "crapper" in this game; though I continue to thank you for your valuable demonstration.

                        (36)

                        From: Claude Lebeau
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:45 PM MT

                        And now you're resorting to the 'I'm rubber and you're glue' childishness.

                        Keep up the theist cliché.

                        (37)

                        From: Robert Baty
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:46 PM MT

                        Thou, Claude, win the "childishness" prize in this contest; though I do not dispute that I play according to the antics of my adversaries and you have been a very childish, evasive adversary and very poor student; demonstrating, perhaps, your need for just such a critical thinking exercise as I have provided for you.

                        (38)

                        From: Claude Lebeau
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:48 PM MT

                        What part of 'all human concepts originate with human cognition' fails to answer any of your questions, Robert?

                        (39)

                        From: Claude Lebeau
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:49 PM MT

                        Your Captian Obvious questions fail to elicit an argument, or even lay out a point to support.

                        (40)

                        From: Claude Lebeau
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:50 PM MT

                        And your condescending arrogance does nothing to benefit a discussion.

                        Can you form an argument without poisoning the well, perhaps?

                        Try it, at least.

                        (41)

                        From: Robert Baty
                        Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                        Time: About 2:50 PM MT

                        Claude, you flunked out and need special permission to reapply to the class.

                        You must be able to demonstrate that you can recognize a modus ponens form argument, and the one that forms the object of the Exercise and answer 6 simple questions regarding how you think about the issues related thereto with either a yes or no; with discussion to follow as necessary and with the Exercise further adapted to your special needs.

                        Keep running, Claude, or make application to work through the Exercise, step by reasonable step.

                        --------------------------------------
                      • rlbaty50
                        ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ---

                          https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                          http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                          https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                          https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                          https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                          https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                          Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

                          (42)

                          From: Claude Lebeau
                          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                          Time: About 3:00 PM MT

                          And, failing a reasonable argument, you continue to resort to ad hominem.

                          Your six questions are explicitly answered by my assertion that all human concepts originate with human cognition.

                          Now, you may continue to sully the thread with your baseless conjectures and attempted insults, or you can continue along.

                          It might be beneficial for you to be honest in your argumentation, rather than asking leading questions and offering zero suppositions or points.

                          And for the love of logic, ditch the fallacies from your methodology. Poisoning the well and ad hominem offer nothing to a discussion.

                          (43)

                          From: Claude Lebeau
                          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                          Time: About 3:01 PM MT

                          It stands to reason, by your refusal to acknowledge that your questions have been answered, that you must be attempting to assert the concept of a god as not originating with human cognition.

                          I'd be interested in your argument to support that notion.

                          (44)

                          From: Robert Baty
                          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                          Time: About 3:04 PM MT

                          Claude,

                          You are an appropriate target for the non-fallacious use of ad hominem and I have a tendency to oblige.

                          Get over yourself, Claude, and either work through the Exercise, or not.

                          It's really very easy and nowhere in your rantings, Claude, do I see you give me the 6 words, your 6 answers to the 6 questions.

                          You, Claude, have already clearly demonstrated that atheists, just as I have claimed, implicitly and explicitly believe that man had the power and did originate the idea/concept of God by imagination.

                          Theists don't believe that.

                          (45)

                          From: Claude Lebeau
                          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                          Time: About 3:06 PM MT

                          Oh wow!

                          Theists don't believe that the god they believe exists didn't originate as nothing more than an idea of human cognition?

                          You don't say!

                          Can we move beyond your Point 1, now?

                          Or would you like to continue casting childish insults in an attempt to discourage me from engaging you in debate?

                          (46)

                          From: Claude Lebeau
                          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                          Time: About 3:08 PM MT

                          "non-fallacious use of ad hominem" = Um, using a logical fallacy is always fallacious, mate. That's why it's a logical fallacy.

                          (47)

                          From: Robert Baty
                          Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                          Time: About 3:10 PM MT

                          Claude,

                          What I am sending your way are not childish insults.

                          You vindicated my Exercise and the claims I make for it a long time ago.

                          You can properly complete the Exercise, or not.

                          Doesn't matter to me.

                          I guess there have been hundreds of knuckleheads like you who have tried and failed to challenge me over the Exercise.

                          You are just another notch in my belt of defeated atheists who flunk out of the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Class.

                          And you think I should take you seriously?

                          (Note: "ad hominem" is not inherently fallacious. Claude's attempt to claim otherwise demonstrates even further his need for some remedial critical thinking training. I tried. I now ask his atheists compatriots to try and help him out.)

                          ------------------------------
                        • rlbaty50
                          ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ---

                            https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                            http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                            https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                            https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                            https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                            https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)

                            Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

                            (48)

                            From: Claude Lebeau
                            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                            Time: About 3:15 PM MT

                            "Atheists think that the concept of god originated with human cognition."

                            Yeah?
                            So what?
                            What's your next topic?

                            (49)

                            From: Claude Lebeau
                            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                            Time: About 3:20 PM MT

                            Ad hominem *is* inherently fallacious, for it requires one to use an unrelated (whether true or not) judgement concerning a person as a means of discrediting any arguments they're proposing.

                            It cannot be anything other than fallacious.

                            You have done nothing but present insults as if they were even factual, and have refused to address my questions.

                            Would you like to carry on, or continue to whine that I did not answer your question in the exact method you wished me to?

                            How is the fact that I, as an atheist, think that the concept of god originated with human cognition, and how do you plan to argue that this fact alone is in any manner supportive of the theist position?

                            FYI:

                            ad ho·mi·nem

                            Adverb

                            1.

                            (of an argument or reaction) Arising
                            from or appealing to the emotions and
                            not reason or logic.

                            2.

                            Attacking an opponent's motives or
                            character rather than the policy or
                            position they maintain.

                            (50)

                            From: Robert Baty
                            Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                            Time: About 3:25 PM MT

                            Claude, I already pointed out your blundering regarding ad hominem demonstrates your need for some remedial critical thinking training.

                            Let me know when you get ready to get serious about your problems and work you way into putting up your 6 simple words in answer to 6 simple questions.

                            ---------------------------------
                          • rlbaty50
                            ... https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue) http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website) https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 20, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ---

                              https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/218470471641000 (venue)
                              http://blog.atheistsurvivalguide.org/ (website)

                              https://www.facebook.com/caleb.sanders.735 (Caleb)
                              https://www.facebook.com/eric.rush.100 (Eric)
                              https://www.facebook.com/allens.friend.1 (AllensFriend)
                              https://www.facebook.com/Fireholder (Claude)
                              https://www.facebook.com/karim.maluf (Karim)

                              Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31210

                              (51)

                              From: Claude Lebeau
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:30 PM MT

                              So, the answer is, no, you don't want to move on to your next 'point', but insist on continuing your pointless and baseless attempts to insult.

                              If you wish to continue on from your point that atheists think that the concept of god is of human origin, reply with a cogent statement using this fact.

                              (52)

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:35 PM MT

                              Claude, you have brought up a lot of issues, but have quite clearly shown yourself an unworthy correspondent with your critical thinking blundering and refusal to work step by reasonable step through a simple exercise.

                              You should have been successfully through the Exercise long ago but you would not.

                              I have no good reason to patronize you further and try to deal with your weightier problems.

                              I will leave it to others to try and help you.

                              I do, however, thank you for the demonstrations.

                              My cause, my Exercise, my claims have been thoroughly vindicated by your antics and explicit claims.

                              (53)

                              From: Karim R. Maluf
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:40

                              Claude, your tenacity is, as always, admirable.
                              This is one of those times where an objective observer (me) suggests you walk away from this one.

                              A pigeon is a pigeon.

                              (54)

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:45 PM MT

                              Karim, as noted earlier, Claude is the pigeon in that metaphor and he is more than welcome to "fly away"; he's left enough behind to satisfy my needs and justify my position(s).

                              (55)

                              From: Karim R. Maluf
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:46 PM MT

                              Karim R. Maluf ^ Case in point.

                              (56)

                              From: Karim R. Maluf
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:47 PM MT

                              And for the record, the use of personal attack in order to undermine the legitimacy of your "opponent" is a logical fallacy.

                              There is no such thing as the 'non fallacious us of ad hominem'.

                              The use of ad hominem is fallacious.

                              What is not fallacious, is the use of a personal attack not engineered to undermine the credibility of your opponent's argument.

                              And that would not be an ad hominem.
                              Just a personal attack.

                              (57)

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:50 PM MT

                              What a hoot!

                              Thanks, Karim, for demonstrating with your blundering that you also could use some critical thinking training.

                              Karim, you come a little close to getting it right, but it seems obvious that you prefer to try and cover for Claude's blundering instead of get down to the truth of the matter.

                              I also notice, Karim, that you have not tried to cough up 6 simple words in answer to 6 simple questions.

                              (58)

                              From: Claude Lebeau
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:52 PM MT

                              Robert, your questions are dishonest in and of themselves.

                              What I believe about atheists is not relevant to the atheist position.
                              Your questions are asking me to assert something about all atheists, and that is a recipe for unwarranted generalization.

                              I can only answer for myself, and I have done so.

                              Your unwillingness to carry on with your 'exercise' is your onus, not mine.

                              (59)

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:55 PM MT

                              Claude, that's a lie and I think you know it's a lie.

                              Alas, it does add to a most valuable demonstration regarding your problems and UNworthiness as a serious correspondent.

                              (60)

                              From: Claude Lebeau
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:56 PM MT

                              The simple fact is that not all atheists think the concept of god is of human origin.

                              Some actually believe the concept was seeded by extraterrestrials, while others still believe that the concept of god was seeded by some other forms of supernatural beings.

                              (61)

                              From: Claude Lebeau
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:57 PM MT

                              What I want to know is, how is your question, and how it may be answered, relevant to the discussion?

                              You see, you need to make a point in order to establish that relevancy.

                              Yet, all you seem to want to do is attempt to make yourself appear more intelligent than an atheist, any atheist, while refusing to get. to. the. point.

                              (62)

                              From: Karim R. Maluf
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 3:58 PM MT

                              I would like my 'blundering' to be pointed out please.

                              Since I have asserted nothing beyond suggesting to Claude that this is a futile endeavor, and then proceeded to explain to you the erroneous use of what is essentially a contradiction in terms in 'non fallacious use of ad hominem', I'm struggling to see where I have 'blundered'.

                              I will, of course, defer to you once you have demonstrated superior understanding of said terms.

                              Until that time, however, your opinion on critical thinking will be placed in the category of 'someone with an internet connection and a keyboard'.

                              As for your 6 questions, I have little interest in engaging you on the topic.

                              My loss, I'm sure.

                              (64)

                              From: Karim R. Maluf
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 4:03 PM MT

                              Shall I be demonstrate another logical fallacy, and poison the well in assuming that your reply will be to further deride my 'critical thinking' without conceding that you have used the term in error?

                              (63)

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 4:10 PM MT

                              Karim,

                              I will consider that you have taken yourself out any further conversation with me in indicating you have no interest in coming up with 6 one-word answers to 6 questions in a simple, straightforward, critical thinking exercise.

                              I would like some things as well as you, but I have found Claude and you UNworthy correspondents and quite uncooperative in dealing with issues in which we might share a mutual interest.

                              I got what was sufficient and quite vindcating as far as my position(s), but I would have preferred an even more profitable exchange.

                              Claude,

                              If you fancy yourself possessed of certain, fundamental critical thinking skills, feel free to let me know when you are ready to offer 6 one-word answers to 6 simple questions dealing with such fundamental critical thinking skills.

                              You obvious are struggling with the subject matter used for the Exercise.

                              Forget your quibbling about the subject matter used in the Exercise and try demonstrating your critical thinking skills independent of your feelings toward the subject matter.

                              Or not, you've "crapped" enough on this matter even while demonstrating the strength of my positions and the propriety of my Exercise.

                              That's enough, but you are welcome to keep it up and maybe even successfully, however reluctantly, complete the Exercise.

                              I won't be holding my breath.

                              (64)

                              From: Claude Lebeau
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 4:15 PM MT

                              I refuse to answer your 'six questions', because to do so would be nothing more than postulating a subjective opinion regarding a group of people I mostly know nothing about.

                              I have answered your questions in reference to myself, Robert, so how about you move on to your next exercise?

                              (65)

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2013
                              Time: About 4:20 PM MT

                              Claude,

                              I think you know your claim above is another false statement.

                              I have no interest in moving on to any other matters with you.

                              You've helped me further demonstrate the propriety of my position(s) and Exercise; though I would have preferred an even more profitable exchange.

                              Should you repent and wish to openly, honestly deal with demonstrating your basic critical thinking skills, or lack thereof, in the context of my case study regarding atheism, look me up and I'll try to make myself available to help you with your problem.

                              ----------------------------------
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.