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Re: Sye Ten Bruggencate gets a blog review!

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  • rlbaty50
    http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html READERS COMMMENT: From: Robert Baty Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 Time:
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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      http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

      READERS' COMMMENT:

      From: Robert Baty
      Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
      Time: About 6:50 AM MT

      While the world awaits the release of the DVD, I continue
      to wait for Sye, or his duly appointed surrogagte, to begin
      the negotiations, openly and in good faith, for the production
      of a discussion of why it is that I propose, without successful rebuttal to date, that Sye's much touted "proof of God" provides
      NO "proof of God".

      I am still available should Sye or any of his duly appointed surrogates wish to engage me in the production of such a
      discussion and begin the negotiations.

      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
      "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:

      http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.h\
      tml

      Reformed Apologetics and Polemics

      How to Answer the Fool - Sye Ten Bruggencate

      By Francis Turretin
      Tuesday, April 30, 2013

      American Vision and Sye Ten Bruggencate have collaborated
      to provide "How to Answer the Fool." I had the pleasure of
      listening to the presentation for free, courtesy of Crown
      Rights Media, who were also involved. The presentation was
      about 85 minutes long, and is focused on the apologetic
      method. I did not see the study guide.

      The video provides a presentation of the apologetics approach
      in which the revelation of Scripture has preeminence (often
      called the "presuppositional" approach).

      The analysis is critical of the evidentialist approaches,
      using examples from folks like Lee Strobel, John Lennox,
      Frank Turek, and William Lane Craig.

      There is also criticism of Rick Warren and his "give Jesus
      a try" approach as well as a brief criticism of Pascal's wager.

      It is not just a lecture on apologetic methodology. There are
      some examples of open air apologetics applying this approach.

      Still, there is an explanation of the methodology and with
      the problems with rejecting the methodology.

      One of the most interesting parts of the video come from an
      interview that began as a discussion with atheists, but had
      a surprising twist, which pointed out how the methodology
      does not need to be limited to those who call themselves
      atheists.

      I really loved the video.

      As Sye emphasizes in the video, the methodology's big advantage
      is that it drives you back to Scripture. Certain distinctive
      aspects of the methodology are emphasized (precisely because
      they are distinctive), so people may come away with the idea
      that all of the discussion is just asking one or two easy to
      ask questions.

      Still, he takes care to point out that it is more than that.

      Cinematically, the presentation is developed with an
      intentionally "gritty" feel.

      While those techniques are not my personal favorite, they
      convey the point that this presentation is intended to be
      for the streets, even though it is skillfully produced.

      The elements of the presentation flow well, and even the
      rap in the credits time of the video is on point.

      At one point in the video, one might come away with the
      idea that Sye does not consider himself accountable to
      anyone but God.

      I suspect that this point was not clarified because of
      a desire to focus on the topic at hand. There are
      subordinate authorities, of course, including the overseers
      in the church, family authority, and the civil authorities.

      -TurretinFan

      Disclaimer: as noted above, I did not pay to see this video,
      but was instead permitted to view the video without charge.

      READERS' COMMENTS:

      From: Sye Ten Bruggencate
      Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
      Time: About 5:30 AM MT

      Thanks for your positive and fair review!

      Indeed I am accountable to earthly authorities
      as well. I am Presbyterian after all :-)

      -----------------------------------------
      -----------------------------------------
    • rlbaty50
      More Reader s Comments: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html READERS COMMENTS: (3) From: Turretin Fan Date:
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        More Reader's Comments:

        http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

        READERS' COMMENTS:

        (3)

        From: Turretin Fan
        Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
        Time: About 8:00 AM MT

        rlbaty:

        The fact that you're asking for such a debate suggests
        you haven't understood the point Sye is making.

        There's an assumption behind your question, namely that
        you can stand in judgment over God's Word and decide
        whether it is good enough or not.

        That assumption is wrong.

        -TurretinFan

        (4)

        From: Robert Baty
        Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
        Time: About 8:30 AM MT

        - Turretin Fan:

        I don't think you understand what at play here.

        Perhaps if Sye or his appointed surrogate ever shows up
        to negotiate a discussion of the issue as proposed, or
        some other mutually acceptable issue, we will learn more
        of the merits of Sye's "apologetic" and my unrebutted
        criticism thereof.

        --------------------------------------------------------

        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
        "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:

        http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

        READERS' COMMMENT:

        (2)

        From: Robert Baty
        Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
        Time: About 6:50 AM MT

        While the world awaits the release of the DVD, I continue
        to wait for Sye, or his duly appointed surrogagte, to begin
        the negotiations, openly and in good faith, for the production
        of a discussion of why it is that I propose, without successful rebuttal to
        date, that Sye's much touted "proof of God" provides
        NO "proof of God".

        I am still available should Sye or any of his duly appointed surrogates wish to
        engage me in the production of such a
        discussion and begin the negotiations.

        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
        "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:

        http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

        Reformed Apologetics and Polemics

        How to Answer the Fool - Sye Ten Bruggencate

        By Francis Turretin
        Tuesday, April 30, 2013

        American Vision and Sye Ten Bruggencate have collaborated
        to provide "How to Answer the Fool." I had the pleasure of
        listening to the presentation for free, courtesy of Crown
        Rights Media, who were also involved. The presentation was
        about 85 minutes long, and is focused on the apologetic
        method. I did not see the study guide.

        The video provides a presentation of the apologetics approach
        in which the revelation of Scripture has preeminence (often
        called the "presuppositional" approach).

        The analysis is critical of the evidentialist approaches,
        using examples from folks like Lee Strobel, John Lennox,
        Frank Turek, and William Lane Craig.

        There is also criticism of Rick Warren and his "give Jesus
        a try" approach as well as a brief criticism of Pascal's wager.

        It is not just a lecture on apologetic methodology. There are
        some examples of open air apologetics applying this approach.

        Still, there is an explanation of the methodology and with
        the problems with rejecting the methodology.

        One of the most interesting parts of the video come from an
        interview that began as a discussion with atheists, but had
        a surprising twist, which pointed out how the methodology
        does not need to be limited to those who call themselves
        atheists.

        I really loved the video.

        As Sye emphasizes in the video, the methodology's big advantage
        is that it drives you back to Scripture. Certain distinctive
        aspects of the methodology are emphasized (precisely because
        they are distinctive), so people may come away with the idea
        that all of the discussion is just asking one or two easy to
        ask questions.

        Still, he takes care to point out that it is more than that.

        Cinematically, the presentation is developed with an
        intentionally "gritty" feel.

        While those techniques are not my personal favorite, they
        convey the point that this presentation is intended to be
        for the streets, even though it is skillfully produced.

        The elements of the presentation flow well, and even the
        rap in the credits time of the video is on point.

        At one point in the video, one might come away with the
        idea that Sye does not consider himself accountable to
        anyone but God.

        I suspect that this point was not clarified because of
        a desire to focus on the topic at hand. There are
        subordinate authorities, of course, including the overseers
        in the church, family authority, and the civil authorities.

        -TurretinFan

        Disclaimer: as noted above, I did not pay to see this video,
        but was instead permitted to view the video without charge.

        READERS' COMMENTS:

        (1)

        From: Sye Ten Bruggencate
        Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
        Time: About 5:30 AM MT

        Thanks for your positive and fair review!

        Indeed I am accountable to earthly authorities
        as well. I am Presbyterian after all :-)

        -----------------------------------------
        -----------------------------------------
      • rlbaty50
        ... Who is the Turretin Fan who operates that blog? http://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379 Turretinfan On Blogger since January 2006 Profile
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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          ---

          Who is the "Turretin Fan" who operates that blog?

          http://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379

          Turretinfan

          On Blogger since January 2006

          Profile views - 15443

          My blogs

          - Thoughts of Francis Turretin
          - TurretinFan's Beta-Test Blog
          - Ancient Voices
          - Pope Francis Turretin
          - Turretinia
          - Turretin Debate Blog
          - Criticism of Turretinfan
          - Reformed Boor

          Blogs I follow

          - Thoughts of Francis Turretin

          About me

          - Gender: Male
          -
          - Introduction
          --
          -- Reformed Apologist
          -- Male
          -- Adult
          -- Bible-Believing
          -- 5 Solas
          -- 5 Petals on my Tulip
          -- Ecclesiastically Presbyterian
          -- not Federal Visionist
          -- Optimistic in my eschatology,
          -- but not dogmatic
          -- Opposed to the errors of Rome
          -- Opposed to the errors of Pelagius
          -- Trinitarian
          -- In favor of Christian liberty
          --
          -- Otherwise Anonymous
          -
          - Interests
          --
          -- Defending the Truth of God,
          -- Revealed in Scripture
        • bucksburg
          ... Reportedly, he s a deacon at a PCA church in Cleveland, OH, and works in a Cleveland law office. Or, maybe their branch office in Arizona. At any rate,
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:

            > Who is the "Turretin Fan" who operates that blog? <

            Reportedly, he's a deacon at a PCA church in Cleveland, OH, and works in a Cleveland law office. Or, maybe their branch office in Arizona.

            At any rate, he's very skilled in the art of electronically covering his tracks. And well versed in the law, capable of alerting would-be exposers of his identity as to the consequences they may face for doing so.

            Whatever the case, his identity, like that of autobiographer Calpernia Addams, remains unknown to the world at large.


            Daniel
          • rlbaty50
            ... Daniel, Thanks for that additional insight into the anonymous Turretin Fan . Sincerely, Robert Baty
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
              "bucksburg" <bucksburg@...> wrote:

              > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
              > "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@> wrote:
              >
              >> Who is the "Turretin Fan"
              >> who operates that blog? <
              >
              > Reportedly, he's a deacon at a PCA church
              > in Cleveland, OH, and works in a Cleveland
              > law office. Or, maybe their branch office
              > in Arizona.
              >
              > At any rate, he's very skilled in the art
              > of electronically covering his tracks. And
              > well versed in the law, capable of alerting
              > would-be exposers of his identity as to the
              > consequences they may face for doing so.
              >
              > Whatever the case, his identity, like that
              > of autobiographer Calpernia Addams, remains
              > unknown to the world at large.

              Daniel,

              Thanks for that additional insight into the anonymous "Turretin Fan".

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
            • rlbaty50
              ... This exchange with Sye just in from the Turretin Fan blog: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html (5) From:
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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                ---

                This exchange with Sye just in from the "Turretin Fan" blog:

                http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

                (5)

                From: Sye Ten Bruggencate
                Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
                Time: About 7:00 PM MT

                I have offered to debate Robert
                over Skype.

                He has declined - for obvious reasons.

                (6)

                From: Robert Baty
                Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
                Time: About 7:05 PM MT

                Sye Ten Bruggencate has a problem
                with being honest about my efforts
                to get him to come out, come clean,
                and openly, honestly negotiate the
                appropriate details necessary to
                produce the proposed discussion as
                to why Sye's much-touted "proof of
                God" is NO "proof of God".

                Venue is only one issue for
                consideration, and Sye has yet to
                engage the negotiations in good faith
                or explicitly refuse to engage in a
                written discussion.

                Will Sye now be coming out for the
                negotiations, in good faith?

                We will see!

                ------------------------------------
                ------------------------------------
              • rlbaty50
                ... The Turretin Fan returns to the exchange http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html (7) From: Turretin Fan
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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                  ---

                  The "Turretin Fan" returns to the exchange"

                  http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

                  (7)

                  From: Turretin Fan
                  Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
                  Time: About 8:00 PM MT

                  Robert:

                  What is your ultimate authority?

                  -TurretinFan

                  (8)

                  From: Robert Baty
                  Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
                  Time: About 8:25 PM MT

                  My experience over the last few weeks with Sye and those
                  who provide cover for him is that one of the first things
                  they want to do is change the subject and evade dealing
                  with Sye's much-touted "proof of God" claim which, I
                  propose, is NO "proof of God".

                  It seems to me to be a very simple matter that does not
                  require much consideration.

                  The lengths to which Sye and his sympathizers have gone
                  to in order to evade dealing with what appears to me to
                  be "false advertising" is, to me, a pretty good indication
                  that Sye and his sympathizers realize that, whatever Sye's Presuppositional apologetics may be, it does not provide a
                  "proof of God" as Sye claims.

                  I would like to test my analysis of Sye's "proof of God"
                  claim.

                  I think I have, but not directly with a defender of Sye's
                  "proof of God" claim.

                  I think Sye should quit making his apologetic into a
                  "proof of God".

                  It might be good for street preachin' and such, a good
                  conversation starter maybe, but as a "proof of God" it
                  isn't; so I contend without Sye or his surrogate to rebut
                  my analysis.

                  Turreting Fan, perhaps you have the moral influence to
                  get Sye to come out, come clean and openly and honestly
                  take up the negotiations with me in order to produce
                  the proposed discussion.

                  Perhaps you don't!

                  Otherwise, if you want to demonstrate a little good faith
                  and have your secondary and tertiary interests in me
                  discussed, you are welcome to make your appearance at my
                  place.

                  Here's the address to my place,

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

                  Anyone can post there. All you have to do is address an
                  email to the following address and follow the public
                  archives at the above link:

                  Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                  You might want to browse the 10 years of history there
                  in order to familiarize yourself with me.

                  Otherwise, Turretin Fan, I have grown weary in dealing
                  with anonymous sorts. You might want to first introduce
                  yourself before presuming to interrogate me.

                  It ain't about me; it's about Sye's alleged "false
                  advertising".

                  -------------------------
                  -------------------------
                • rlbaty50
                  ... The anonymous Turretin Fan grows a little testy as if to use that as a rather lame excuse to provide yet further cover for Sye Ten Bruggencate as he
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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                    ---

                    The anonymous "Turretin Fan" grows a little testy as if to use that as a rather lame excuse to provide yet further cover for Sye Ten Bruggencate as he continues his "run" from me.

                    http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

                    (9)

                    From: Turretin Fan
                    Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
                    Time: About 8:30 PM MT

                    Robert:

                    You didn't answer my question
                    and you expressed weariness in
                    dealing with me.

                    Plus, you're suggesting my
                    brother's dishonest.

                    I can't see any reason for putting
                    up with such an ill-mannered guest.

                    -TurretinFan

                    (10)

                    From: Robert Baty
                    Date: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
                    Time: About 8:40 PM MT

                    - Turretin Fan:

                    Run off if you will.

                    Many before you have done
                    likewise.

                    Sye has not been honest with
                    his dealings with me, and he's
                    had plenty of like-minded folks
                    following his lead.

                    It was not really intended to
                    be a "suggestion".

                    I have archived much of that
                    important history at my place.

                    Show up there if you want to
                    talk particulars.

                    I think you failed to understand
                    the point of my weariness.

                    You are welcome to remain as
                    anonymous as you want; just don't
                    think you have any special case
                    for questioning me if that's your
                    course.

                    I may patronize you somewhat if
                    you have something relevant to
                    say; maybe not.

                    Otherwise, I continue to wait to
                    see if Sye will come out, come
                    clean and openly and honestly
                    negotiate the details necessary
                    to produce the proposed discussion.

                    ---------------------------------
                    ---------------------------------
                  • rlbaty50
                    ... The anonymous Turretin Fan cuts and runs and represents only the latest in a long line of Sye Ten Bruggencate sympathizers to provide cover for Sye and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 30, 2013
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                      ---

                      The anonymous "Turretin Fan" cuts and runs and represents only the latest in a long line of Sye Ten Bruggencate sympathizers to provide cover for Sye and his false claim to have the "proof of God" which I continue to claim, without a rebuttal correspondent, is NO "proof of God".

                      Note the following regarding my last three postings to that website:

                      http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

                      - This comment has been
                      - deleted by the administrator.

                      - This comment has been deleted
                      - by the administrator.

                      - This comment has been deleted
                      - by the administrator.

                      Another important peg in the history of the failure of Presuppositionalism is so noted.

                      Run, Sye, run!
                      See Sye run!

                      ----------------------------
                      ----------------------------
                    • rlbaty50
                      Now this courtesy of one of Turretin Fan s fans: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html (11) From: SlimJim Date:
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 1, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Now this courtesy of one of "Turretin Fan's" fans:

                        http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-answer-fool-sye-ten-bruggencate.html

                        (11)

                        From: SlimJim
                        Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013
                        Time: About 2:00 AM MT

                        Thanks for this review T-Fan!

                        SlimJim's Blog:

                        http://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/late-april-2013-presuppositionalism-links-round-up/

                        (excerpts)

                        Late April 2013 Presuppositionalism
                        Links Round up

                        May 1, 2013
                        by SLIMJIM

                        These are some of the highlights of
                        Presuppositional apologetics links
                        around the web from April 21st-30th
                        2013.

                        2.)

                        Turretin Fan Review:
                        How to Answer the Fool.

                        Readers' Comments:

                        (1)

                        From: BoGraphy
                        Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013
                        Time: 12:18 PM

                        Looks very interesting SlimJim.

                        (2)

                        From: Robert Baty
                        Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013
                        Time: 12:45 PM

                        Your comment is awaiting moderation.

                        My continuing effort, via the
                        "Turretin Fan" blog review, to get
                        Sye Ten Bruggencate to come out,
                        come clean and openly and honestly
                        negotiate the logistical details
                        necessary to produce the proposed
                        one-on-one discussion of why his
                        "proof of God" claim provides NO
                        "proof of God" was not successful.

                        It turned out to be another case
                        of Sye popping off, running off,
                        and then leaving his friends to
                        cover his tracks.

                        I was, however, able to preserve
                        the latest historic developments
                        regarding Sye's continuing evasions
                        at my YAHOO! list and on my FaceBook
                        page.

                        Those interested in such things and
                        who may wish to participate in
                        further developing that subject,
                        and maybe even influencing Sye to
                        stop running and start negotiating,
                        are welcome to post to my FaceBook
                        page and or my YAHOO! discussion
                        list.

                        To post to my YAHOO! discussion list,
                        which has public archives, all you
                        have to do is address an email message
                        to:

                        Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                        Group Address:

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

                        FaceBook:

                        https://www.facebook.com/robert.baty.1

                        See y'all there,
                        or not!

                        ------------------
                        ------------------
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