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[M & B] Re: Logic/Atheism/Larken Rose

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  • rlbaty50
    Ned, While I have religious based concepts of government, such concepts do not require a religious base. A lot of non-religious sorts share one or more of my
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 21, 2013
      Ned,

      While I have religious based concepts of government, such concepts do not require a religious base. A lot of non-religious sorts share one or more of my views of Government and taxes.

      That might be distinguished from Hovind's claim that "nothing is more than a few thousand years old" which is solely based in his religious foundation.

      I was trying to be a little humorous with my reference to your previously stated experiences with the pokey. It's hard to successfully deny the reality of Government when the Government has you locked up.

      I think your logic is off regarding the witch thing.

      Government execution of "witches" doesn't say anything about the reality of "witches", but it does say something about the reality of the Government; whether acting properly or not.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
      Ned Netterville <nednetterville@...> wrote, in part:

      > Robert said, :
      >
      >> "Hovind admits to the legitimacy/reality
      >> of Government and its authority.
      >>
      >> So do I.
      >
      > Well, I didn't know that Hovind held that belief,
      > as you do, so that is another similarity.
      >
      > But what I was talking about is that Hovind's belief
      > in creationism and your belief in government are both
      > both based on religious-like faith.
      >
      > Therein lies the similarity.
      >
      > What does my need for a bail bondsman have to do with
      > the reality of government?
      >
      > By the same or similar reasoning, I suppose you would
      > say that the arrest, torture, hanging and other forms
      > of punishment resulting in the deaths of Martha Carrier,
      > Giles Corey, Martha Corey, Mary Eastly, Sarah Good,
      > Elizabeth Howe, George Jacobs, et al., in Salem, MA,
      > a while back is evidence of the reality of witches.
      >
      > Mass hysteria accounted for the disastrous belief in
      > witches, and a similar. more ubiquitous mass delusion
      > accounts for the belief in the reality of government
      > authority.
      >
      > Neither belief is rational, but both have proven to
      > be deadly
    • Ned Netterville
      Robert, Let me try to show you the flaw in your logic by analogy (or simile or whatever it is). As a superior boxer might say of his bout with an inferior
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
        Robert,

        Let me try to show you the flaw in your logic by analogy (or simile or whatever it is). As a superior boxer might say of his bout with an inferior opponent, the myth (or superstition, or legal fiction) called government never laid a glove on me. A man infected by the most dangerous superstition stopped me and put me in jail--for weaving, he said. I wasn't, but I was on a highway with a lot of pubs, it was near closing time, I was driving a car that looked like it might belong to a drunk, and he was a M.A.D.D. award-winning cop who was subsequently fired for having sex with a 18-year-old girl in his patrol car. He forgot to charge me with weaving, but did charge me with the "serious crime" of no operator's license. Not government, but a judge suffering the same delusion set a very high bail because he mistakenly apparently believed that I was a member of a violent group called The Freeman (I'm a pacifist, in line with Jesus' teaching in his Sermon on the Mount, and have renounced the use of force even in self-defense), and subsequently sentenced me to 90 days. But neither he, nor government took me to jail. That was accomplished by a bailiff, more police officers, and jailers, non of whom, I dare say, thought the punishment I was given was appropriate for the malum prohibitum I had committed. Nevertheless, their minds contaminated by the same sad delusion, like the guards at the Nazis' death camps, they unthinkingly "just followed orders, and put me and held me in the pokey.

        Perhaps because I had done no wrong--that these folks knew of, that is--- the experience turned out to be a real blessing for me. Not only did I get to share my experience, strength and hope with some potential future members of AA, whose reasons for being in jail and whose comments to me indicated they needed help to stop drinking while on the outside, I was also able during my stay to get into my best physical shape I'd been in since at least my days on the college wrestling team. It was only because of that fact that when I got out I started racing mountain bikes, which for the next six years became my passionate avocation,and I'm still riding--not racing--today.I now believe that God does some of his most productive work in jails and prisons.

        Believe in God, not government. ktf, Jim

        --
        Love your enemies; it befuddles 'em!--Ned Netterville
      • Ned Netterville
        Robert, Let me try to show you the flaw in your logic by analogy (or simile or whatever it is). As a superior boxer might say of his bout with an inferior
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
          Robert,

          Let me try to show you the flaw in your logic by analogy (or simile or whatever it is). As a superior boxer might say of his bout with an inferior opponent, government never laid a glove on me. A man infected by the most dangerous superstition stopped me and put me in jail--for weaving, he said. I wasn't. However, I was traveling on a highway with a lot of pubs, it was near closing time, I was driving a car that looked like it might belong to a drunk, and he was a M.A.D.D. award-winning cop who was subsequently fired for having sex with a 18-year-old girl in his patrol car. He forgot to charge me with weaving, but did charge me with the "serious crime" of no operator's license. Not government, but a judge suffering the same delusion set a very high bail because he mistakenly believed that I was a member of a violent group called The Freemen. (I'm a pacifist, who in line with Jesus' teaching in his Sermon on the Mount have renounced the use of force even in self-defense), and he subsequently sentenced me to 90 days. But neither he, nor government took me to jail. That was accomplished by a bailiff, more police officers, and jailers, non of whom, I dare say, thought the punishment I was given was appropriate for the malum prohibitum I had committed. Nevertheless, their minds contaminated by the same sad delusion, like the guards at the Nazis' death camps, unthinkingly just following orders, they put me and held me in the pokey.

          Perhaps because I had done no wrong--that these folks knew of, that is--- the experience turned out to be a real blessing for me. Not only did I get to share my experience, strength and hope with some potential future members of AA, whose reasons for being in jail and whose comments to me indicated they needed help to stop drinking while on the outside, I was also able during my stay to get into my best physical shape since at least my college days on the wrestling team. It was only because of that fact that when I got out I started racing mountain bikes, which for the next six years became my passionate avocation,and I'm still riding--not racing--today.

          ktf, Ned

          --
          Love your enemies; it befuddles 'em!--Ned Netterville
        • rlbaty50
          ... You tried and failed, Ned! ... You left my legitimate analogy and the impeccable logic and gone off into the weeds, Ned. Now, as is often the case, you ve
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
            Ned Netterville wrote, in part:

            > Let me try to show you the flaw in your logic
            > by analogy (or simile or whatever it is).

            You tried and failed, Ned!

            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
            Ned Netterville wrote, in part:

            > As a superior boxer might say of his bout with
            > an inferior opponent, the myth (or superstition,
            > or legal fiction) called government never laid
            > a glove on me.

            You left my legitimate analogy and the impeccable logic and gone off into the weeds, Ned.

            Now, as is often the case, you've gone to playing word games; this time with reference to what we mean when we say "government" and how such "government" operates through agents.

            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
            Ned Netterville wrote, in part:

            > A man infected by the most dangerous superstition
            > stopped me and put me in jail--for weaving, he said.

            I think that helps to make my point of rebuttal, and it brings up a related issue I earlier addressed.

            That is, Ned, inasmuch as you prefer a certain degree of anonymity you get to say anything and substantiate nothing regarding factual claims you wish to use to try and make a point or two.

            That's fine, but "we" are under no obligation to accept your alleged facts as historical events.

            That an agent of the government is able to arrest, book and jail a driver provides some empirical evidence that the "government" is real and not "imaginary".

            Also, Ned, I don't think you ever addressed my earlier query about how it is you account for that feature you were driving on when you were, allegedly, taken to the pokey.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
          • Ned Netterville
            Robert, I account for the roads the same way anti-Hitler, peace-loving Germans accounted for both the death camps and the roads the Nazi regime built. I m sure
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
              Robert, I account for the roads the same way anti-Hitler, peace-loving Germans accounted for both the death camps and the roads the Nazi regime built. I'm sure they didn't like the death camps, but their taxes supported both camps and roads. I don't like the fact that until I figure out how to avoid the damn tax on gasoline, I am forced to pay for roads that are of inferior quality because the county commissioner's brother got the contract to build the roads.

              Robert, When your logic fails you, do you always shout "word game?"

              Ned



              On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 1:30 PM, rlbaty50 <rlbaty@...> wrote:
               



              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
              Ned Netterville wrote, in part:



              > Let me try to show you the flaw in your logic
              > by analogy (or simile or whatever it is).

              You tried and failed, Ned!

              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
              Ned Netterville wrote, in part:


              > As a superior boxer might say of his bout with
              > an inferior opponent, the myth (or superstition,
              > or legal fiction) called government never laid
              > a glove on me.

              You left my legitimate analogy and the impeccable logic and gone off into the weeds, Ned.

              Now, as is often the case, you've gone to playing word games; this time with reference to what we mean when we say "government" and how such "government" operates through agents.

              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
              Ned Netterville wrote, in part:


              > A man infected by the most dangerous superstition
              > stopped me and put me in jail--for weaving, he said.

              I think that helps to make my point of rebuttal, and it brings up a related issue I earlier addressed.

              That is, Ned, inasmuch as you prefer a certain degree of anonymity you get to say anything and substantiate nothing regarding factual claims you wish to use to try and make a point or two.

              That's fine, but "we" are under no obligation to accept your alleged facts as historical events.

              That an agent of the government is able to arrest, book and jail a driver provides some empirical evidence that the "government" is real and not "imaginary".

              Also, Ned, I don't think you ever addressed my earlier query about how it is you account for that feature you were driving on when you were, allegedly, taken to the pokey.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty




              --
              Love your enemies; it befuddles 'em!--Ned Netterville
            • rlbaty50
              ... That s like asking me if I have quit beating my wife! :o) When my logic fails ??????? I guess we are going to have to wait and see, if and when that
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
                --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                Ned Netterville <nednetterville@...> wrote:

                > Robert,
                >
                > When your logic fails you,
                > do you always shout "word game?"

                That's like asking me if I have quit beating my wife! :o)

                "When my logic fails"???????

                I guess we are going to have to wait and see, if and when that occurs, how I might respond!

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
              • Ned Netterville
                Well (pause), have you? (Your reply still has me chuckling.) ... -- Love your enemies; it befuddles em!--Ned Netterville
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
                  Well (pause), have you?  (Your reply still has  me chuckling.)

                  On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:32 PM, rlbaty50 <rlbaty@...> wrote:
                   

                  --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                  Ned Netterville <nednetterville@...> wrote:

                  > Robert,
                  >
                  > When your logic fails you,
                  > do you always shout "word game?"

                  That's like asking me if I have quit beating my wife! :o)

                  "When my logic fails"???????

                  I guess we are going to have to wait and see, if and when that occurs, how I might respond!

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty




                  --
                  Love your enemies; it befuddles 'em!--Ned Netterville
                • rlbaty50
                  Sometimes it is good not to take oneself toooooo seriously. I m glad you enjoyed the humor. Sincerely, Robert Baty
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 22, 2013
                    Sometimes it is good not to take oneself toooooo seriously. I'm glad you enjoyed the humor.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                    Ned Netterville <nednetterville@...> wrote:

                    > Well (pause), have you?
                    > (Your reply still has me chuckling.)
                    >
                    > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:32 PM,
                    > rlbaty50 <rlbaty@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                    >> Ned Netterville <nednetterville@> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Robert,
                    >>>
                    >>> When your logic fails you,
                    >>> do you always shout "word game?"
                    >>
                    >> That's like asking me if I have quit
                    >> beating my wife! :o)
                    >>
                    >> "When my logic fails"???????
                    >>
                    >> I guess we are going to have to wait and
                    >> see, if and when that occurs, how
                    >> I might respond!
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