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RE: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins Again!

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  • <ned@...>
    Robert, Maybe you should consider divorcing yourself from the church or churches or Christ as I did from the R.C. church. I think of myself not as a Christian
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
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      Robert, Maybe you should consider divorcing yourself from the church or churches or Christ as I did from the R.C. church. I think of myself not as a Christian by rather as a disciple of Jesus. However, I would join a church if I could find a satisfactory one. ktf, Ned

      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins
      Again!
      From: "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...>
      Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 12:35 pm
      To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

       
      I have now managed to transcribe my recent radio interview for ready reference regarding the Pepperdine controversy that took place on the scholarly Stone-Campbell discussion list and inolving a number of high-profile Pepperdine apologists who thought they could sustain their challenge of me. When they lost, they had the moderator terminate my membership in that list.

      The Stone-Campbell list controversy is copied following the transcript.

      I was originally scheduled for the 50:00 - 60:00 minutes time slot in the first hour of the GodDiscussion program.

      http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

      TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

      Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

      Deborah Beeksma (host):

      > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
      > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
      > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
      > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
      > petitions at the White House where people can sign
      > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
      > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

      Robert, thank you for joining the show.

      Robert Baty (Guest):

      > Thank you for the invitation.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
      > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

      Robert Baty:

      > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
      > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
      > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
      > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
      > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
      > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
      > a house anywhere.

      > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
      > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
      > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
      > it attention and get something done about it.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
      > care?

      > Why did you file that petition?

      Robert Baty:

      > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

      > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
      > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
      > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
      > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
      > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
      > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
      > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
      > Burleson on behalf of some of their constitutents in Texas.

      > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
      > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
      > to employees at private schools.

      > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
      > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
      > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
      > benefit.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
      > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
      > other organizations.

      > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
      > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
      > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

      Robert Baty:

      > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
      > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
      > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
      > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
      > and he didn't do anything about it.

      > Which is why I complain a lot.

      > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
      > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > HMMM!

      > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

      > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

      Professor Mitch (Guest):

      > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
      > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
      > thing.

      > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
      > the right thing to do.

      Robert Baty:

      > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
      > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
      > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
      > easily, but they won't.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
      > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
      > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
      > agree with that.

      Robert Baty:

      > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
      > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
      > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
      > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
      > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
      > out that is almost impervious to attack.

      > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
      > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
      > been challenged judicially.

      > There's no political will to change it so you have to
      > look to a judicial result.

      > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
      > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
      > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
      > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
      > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
      > case is pending.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
      > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
      > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
      > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
      > least went through.

      Robert Baty:

      > That's where it has already set history in getting them
      > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
      > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
      > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
      > will speed up the process.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
      > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

      Robert Baty:

      > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
      > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
      > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
      > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
      > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
      > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
      > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
      > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
      > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
      > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
      > and things like that that most people don't get such
      > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
      > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
      > government because of these exemptions.

      Robert Baty:

      > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
      > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
      > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
      > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
      > with a "b".

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Wow!

      Professor Mitch:

      > Just on the parsonage exemption.

      Robert Baty:

      > Right!

      Professor Mitch:

      > Wow!

      Robert Baty:

      > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
      > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
      > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
      > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
      > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

      Professor Mitch:

      > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
      > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
      > education could do.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Exactly!

      Professor Mitch:

      > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
      > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
      > religious institututions.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
      > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
      > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
      > lot of people.

      Robert Baty:

      > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
      > different category. A lot of people get property tax
      > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
      > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
      > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
      > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
      > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
      > University, you can have it too.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
      > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
      > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
      > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
      > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
      > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
      > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

      Robert Baty:

      > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
      > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
      > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
      > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
      > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
      > and cantors.

      > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
      > church to say your are a minister and then you start
      > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners to help your
      > cause. Do you have any ideas.

      Robert Baty:

      > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
      > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
      > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
      > them to get their candidate committed to the future
      > of the Code section.

      > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
      > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
      > suspect to her.

      > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
      > it was she said I don't like that.

      > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
      > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

      > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
      > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

      > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

      > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
      > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
      > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
      > set history in that they got standing.

      > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
      > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
      > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
      > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
      > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
      > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
      > IRC 107.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Agreed!

      > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
      > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
      > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
      > pay for the new flooring in your house.

      Professor Mitch:

      > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
      > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
      > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
      > in tax law class.

      Robert Baty:

      > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
      > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
      > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
      > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
      > tax free for your house.

      Professor Mitch:

      > Alright! Well, there you go!

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
      > A lot of people are not aware of it.

      > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
      > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
      > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
      > versed in what is going on.

      Robert Baty:

      > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
      > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
      > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
      > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
      > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > I agree!

      > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
      > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
      > more in depth.

      > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
      > This is fascinating.

      > Thank you so much for joining us.

      Robert Baty:

      > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

      Deborah Beeksma:

      > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

      Robert Baty:

      > Thank you!

      End Interview: About 61:00 mark

      ---------------------------------------------------

      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
      "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote, in part:

      ------------

      MESSAGE #1:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
      my radio interview last night.

      Did anybody catch it?

      Here's the archived link to the show:

      http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
      ion-vs-the-1st-amendment


      My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

      Prior to that time, they had a church/state
      lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #2:

      From: John.Wilson@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert:

      Could we have the name of the basketball coach
      at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
      housing allowance?

      --John Wilson

      ------------

      MESSAGE #3:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
      the extent to which their employees exploit the
      allowable benefit.

      I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
      in the radio interview.

      If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
      minister" as representative of what has been allowed
      by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
      along with their request.

      Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
      things a long time ago.

      However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
      at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
      allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
      the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
      employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
      Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
      dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
      been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
      Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

      I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
      employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
      using the benefit and in what amounts.

      Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
      such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #4:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      Here's just a little followup for you, if you
      are interested.

      Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
      from a discussion about your question that took
      place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-c\
      oach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/


      (1)

      - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
      -
      - This would be an interesting issue
      - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
      - actually claimed this exemption.
      - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
      - has been a member of the Church of
      - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
      - basketball coach has been eligible,
      - and no basketball coach has taken it.

      (2)

      - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
      -
      - Actually, I've been corrected by a
      - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
      - current basketball coach is a member
      - of the Church of Christ, and has been
      - for years. We have no way of knowing
      - if he takes a ministerial housing
      - allowance, however. That information
      - is considered private and is not
      - disclosed, and for that matter, is
      - rarely discussed among Church of
      - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
      - most eligible individuals it's a
      - matter of conscience as to whether
      - or not they take it.

      (3)

      - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
      -
      - Thanks for the clarification.
      -
      - According to the 2010 Form 990
      - available on guidestar.org Thomas
      - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
      - had $267,140 of "reportable
      - compensation" and $48,120 of
      - "other compensation"...
      -
      - Can't tell for certain if there
      - is a housing allowance...

      ------------

      MESSAGE #5:

      From: John.Wilson@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert:

      It is not my responsibility to document the charge
      you made to an international audience, but yours.

      See Matt. 19:18.

      Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
      at Pepperdine.

      If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
      call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
      clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
      listen to.

      To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
      interview is very strange, to say the least.

      --John

      ------------

      MESSAGE #6:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
      question something you claim I said that you claim
      was inappropriate.

      If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
      on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
      out and reply.

      If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
      wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
      welcome to do so.

      I'm game for such games.

      Let's play.

      The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #7:

      From: John.Wilson@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      I think enough has already been said to establish what
      has happened here.

      Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

      --John

      ------------

      MESSAGE #8:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

      For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
      the predicament you have created for yourself and
      Pepperdine and its coaches.

      Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
      honestly with your charges against me, or not.

      You, John, have made some serious charges against me
      and that in an international forum.

      Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

      I would have preferred a different result, but such a
      result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
      myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #9:

      From: tom-olbricht@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
      have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
      on my income tax for the last three years.

      I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

      Robert Baty declares,

      > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
      > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

      To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
      ploy,

      > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
      > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

      Tom Olbricht

      ------------

      MESSAGE #10:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Tom,

      That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
      of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

      John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
      antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
      and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
      me.

      You would have done better to have just let him run off.

      John wrote, in part:

      > It is not my responsibility to document
      > the charge you made to an international
      > audience, but yours.

      > If you cannot do so, it would seem
      > that decency would call for a retraction
      > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
      > in the interview you suggested we all listen
      > to.

      What did I say that ticked John off?

      He didn't say?

      I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
      found no reason to retract anything I said about
      Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
      Revenue Ruling 70-549.

      Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

      Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
      to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
      in need of doing?

      Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
      on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
      they continue to cover for his retreat?

      It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
      than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
      with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
      challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
      exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
      Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
      problem our current tax laws and their administration).

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #11:

      From: gecooper2@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert,

      John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
      they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

      But I for one see your response to them as an old
      debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

      You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
      allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
      doing what is out of bounds.

      Only speculation.

      You have a simple solution to that: report your
      unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
      said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

      Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
      now can you.

      George Cooper

      ------------

      MESSAGE #12:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      George,

      You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

      If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
      I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
      the time of the quote so I can check what might have
      you so ticked off.

      Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
      hypocrite for me.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #13:

      From: keithprice@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Listers,

      I am not the least interested in this line
      of discussion.

      Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
      guidelines of the list.

      Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
      encouraging him with responses.

      Sincerely,
      Keith Price

      ------------

      MESSAGE #14:

      From: gecooper2@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

      I don't see as well as I did when I
      was younger and occasionally mistake
      a molehill I should avoid for a
      mountain worthy of scaling.

      Blessings on this Lord's Day,

      George Cooper

      ------------

      MESSAGE #15:

      From: randolph@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      I prefer to let you all self-manage;
      Keith is correct.

      Robert has made his point and we know
      from experience that engaging in
      conversation with him is not productive.

      Let's drop it.

      Robert M. Randolph
      Chaplain to the Institute
      Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      W-11 128
      617-258-xxxx

      ------------

      MESSAGE #16:

      From: tom-olbricht@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert,

      You win every argument because you always are
      in denial about any observation that nails you
      to the wall.

      You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
      You are the one who should be ashamed.

      Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
      longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

      What is it with you?

      You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
      do, but still damned if you don't!"

      ------------

      MESSAGE #17:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Tom,

      I may win every argument (I certainly did this
      time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

      Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
      to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
      and non-fallacious use.

      Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
      quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

      If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
      I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
      is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
      the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
      have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
      problem might be.

      Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
      details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
      the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

      Deal with it appropriately,
      or not.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #18:

      From: michaelstrickland92@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Listers,

      Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
      how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
      on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
      temporary removal of offenders from the list.

      Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

      My 2 cents.

      Sincerely,
      Michael

      ------------

      MESSAGE #19:

      From: randolph@...
      To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

      Subject: Stone-Campbell

      Robert,

      I have dropped you from the list.

      If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
      are willing to converse with civility.

      It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
      an opinion is due to advanced age.

      You ought to know better.

      What you offer the list is one topic and one
      topic only; we hear you, understand what you
      are interested in and what we get in return
      is your one issue.

      I expect better if you want to participate
      in the list ongoing.

      Robert M. Randolph
      Chaplain to the Institute
      Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      W-11 128
      617-258-xxxx

      ------------

      MESSAGE #20:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

      Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

      Robert,

      Thanks for the notification.

      If anyone there actually comes up with something
      I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
      them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

      Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

      I let list managers do what they will.

      Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
      civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
      Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
      of cover from the "good ol' boys".

      I hoped for better this time around regarding the
      important, public issues being discussed; but I
      can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------
      ------------

    • rlbaty50
      FORWARDED MESSAGE (for the record) To: John Wilson - Pepperdine University (S-C List Member) cc: Robert Randolph (S-C List Moderator) cc: Michael Strickland
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        FORWARDED MESSAGE (for the record)

        To: John Wilson - Pepperdine University (S-C List Member)

        cc: Robert Randolph (S-C List Moderator)
        cc: Michael Strickland (S-C List Member)
        cc: George Cooper (S-C List Member)
        cc: Tom Olbricht (S-C List Member)
        cc: Keith Price (S-C List Member)
        cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes Contributor)
        Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 19:28:15 -0400

        Subject: What it was you had a question about?

        John,

        Following my name below is my transcription of that
        radio interview you thought to call into question
        regarding something I said regarding Pepperdine
        University.

        If you have continuing question(s) regarding such
        things, maybe this transcript will help you to
        identify what, specifically, you wished to call
        into question.

        Just let me know and I will be glad to try and
        resolve any issues you may wish to raise.

        You had written, previously, publicly, to the
        international Stone-Campbell audience, in part:

        > It is not my responsibility to document
        > the charge you made to an international
        > audience, but yours.
        >
        > See Matt. 19:18.
        >
        > If you cannot do so, it would seem that
        > decency would call for a retraction of
        > your charge-a charge you clearly made
        > in the interview you suggested we all
        > listen to.
        >
        >> John Wilson
        >> Pepperdine University

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------------Transcription--------------------------

        http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

        TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

        Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

        Deborah Beeksma (host):

        > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
        > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
        > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
        > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
        > petitions at the White House where people can sign
        > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
        > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

        Robert, thank you for joining the show.

        Robert Baty (Guest):

        > Thank you for the invitation.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
        > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

        Robert Baty:

        > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
        > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
        > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
        > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
        > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
        > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
        > a house anywhere.

        > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
        > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
        > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
        > it attention and get something done about it.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
        > care?

        > Why did you file that petition?

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

        > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
        > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
        > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
        > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
        > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
        > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
        > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
        > Burleson on behalf of some of their constituents in Texas.

        > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
        > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
        > to employees at private schools.

        > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
        > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
        > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
        > benefit.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
        > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
        > other organizations.

        > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
        > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
        > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

        Robert Baty:

        > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
        > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
        > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
        > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
        > and he didn't do anything about it.

        > Which is why I complain a lot.

        > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
        > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > HMMM!

        > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

        > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

        Professor Mitch (Guest):

        > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
        > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
        > thing.

        > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
        > the right thing to do.

        Robert Baty:

        > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
        > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
        > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
        > easily, but they won't.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
        > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
        > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
        > agree with that.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
        > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
        > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
        > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
        > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
        > out that is almost impervious to attack.

        > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
        > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
        > been challenged judicially.

        > There's no political will to change it so you have to
        > look to a judicial result.

        > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
        > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
        > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
        > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
        > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
        > case is pending.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
        > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
        > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
        > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
        > least went through.

        Robert Baty:

        > That's where it has already set history in getting them
        > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
        > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
        > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
        > will speed up the process.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
        > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

        Robert Baty:

        > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
        > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
        > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
        > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
        > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
        > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
        > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
        > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
        > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
        > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
        > and things like that that most people don't get such
        > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
        > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
        > government because of these exemptions.

        Robert Baty:

        > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
        > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
        > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
        > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
        > with a "b".

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Wow!

        Professor Mitch:

        > Just on the parsonage exemption.

        Robert Baty:

        > Right!

        Professor Mitch:

        > Wow!

        Robert Baty:

        > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
        > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
        > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
        > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
        > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

        Professor Mitch:

        > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
        > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
        > education could do.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Exactly!

        Professor Mitch:

        > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
        > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
        > religious institututions.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
        > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
        > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
        > lot of people.

        Robert Baty:

        > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
        > different category. A lot of people get property tax
        > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
        > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
        > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
        > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
        > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
        > University, you can have it too.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
        > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
        > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
        > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
        > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
        > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
        > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
        > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
        > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
        > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
        > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
        > and cantors.

        > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
        > church to say your are a minister and then you start
        > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners do to help your
        > cause. Do you have any ideas.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
        > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
        > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
        > them to get their candidate committed to the future
        > of the Code section.

        > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
        > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
        > suspect to her.

        > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
        > it was she said I don't like that.

        > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
        > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

        > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
        > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

        > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

        > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
        > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
        > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
        > set history in that they got standing.

        > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
        > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
        > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
        > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
        > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
        > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
        > IRC 107.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Agreed!

        > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
        > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
        > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
        > pay for the new flooring in your house.

        Professor Mitch:

        > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
        > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
        > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
        > in tax law class.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
        > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
        > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
        > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
        > tax free for your house.

        Professor Mitch:

        > Alright! Well, there you go!

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
        > A lot of people are not aware of it.

        > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
        > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
        > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
        > versed in what is going on.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
        > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
        > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
        > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
        > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > I agree!

        > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
        > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
        > more in depth.

        > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
        > This is fascinating.

        > Thank you so much for joining us.

        Robert Baty:

        > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

        Robert Baty:

        > Thank you!

        End Interview: About 61:00 mark

        ---------------------------------------------
        ---------------------------------------------
      • <ned@...>
        Robert, One of the things I learned about myself in AA was that I had an obsessive need to be right. Even when I am, it can be a liability. I struggle with it
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Robert, One of the things I learned about myself in AA was that I had an obsessive need to be right. Even when I am, it can be a liability. I struggle with it still. Ned

          -------- Original Message --------
          Subject: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins
          Again!
          From: "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...>
          Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 4:48 pm
          To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

           
          FORWARDED MESSAGE (for the record)

          To: John Wilson - Pepperdine University (S-C List Member)

          cc: Robert Randolph (S-C List Moderator)
          cc: Michael Strickland (S-C List Member)
          cc: George Cooper (S-C List Member)
          cc: Tom Olbricht (S-C List Member)
          cc: Keith Price (S-C List Member)
          cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes Contributor)
          Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 19:28:15 -0400

          Subject: What it was you had a question about?

          John,

          Following my name below is my transcription of that
          radio interview you thought to call into question
          regarding something I said regarding Pepperdine
          University.

          If you have continuing question(s) regarding such
          things, maybe this transcript will help you to
          identify what, specifically, you wished to call
          into question.

          Just let me know and I will be glad to try and
          resolve any issues you may wish to raise.

          You had written, previously, publicly, to the
          international Stone-Campbell audience, in part:

          > It is not my responsibility to document
          > the charge you made to an international
          > audience, but yours.
          >
          > See Matt. 19:18.
          >
          > If you cannot do so, it would seem that
          > decency would call for a retraction of
          > your charge-a charge you clearly made
          > in the interview you suggested we all
          > listen to.
          >
          >> John Wilson
          >> Pepperdine University

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------------Transcription--------------------------

          http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

          TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

          Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

          Deborah Beeksma (host):

          > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
          > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
          > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
          > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
          > petitions at the White House where people can sign
          > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
          > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

          Robert, thank you for joining the show.

          Robert Baty (Guest):

          > Thank you for the invitation.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
          > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

          Robert Baty:

          > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
          > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
          > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
          > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
          > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
          > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
          > a house anywhere.

          > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
          > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
          > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
          > it attention and get something done about it.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
          > care?

          > Why did you file that petition?

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

          > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
          > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
          > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
          > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
          > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
          > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
          > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
          > Burleson on behalf of some of their constituents in Texas.

          > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
          > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
          > to employees at private schools.

          > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
          > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
          > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
          > benefit.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
          > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
          > other organizations.

          > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
          > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
          > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

          Robert Baty:

          > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
          > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
          > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
          > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
          > and he didn't do anything about it.

          > Which is why I complain a lot.

          > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
          > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > HMMM!

          > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

          > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

          Professor Mitch (Guest):

          > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
          > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
          > thing.

          > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
          > the right thing to do.

          Robert Baty:

          > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
          > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
          > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
          > easily, but they won't.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
          > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
          > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
          > agree with that.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
          > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
          > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
          > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
          > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
          > out that is almost impervious to attack.

          > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
          > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
          > been challenged judicially.

          > There's no political will to change it so you have to
          > look to a judicial result.

          > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
          > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
          > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
          > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
          > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
          > case is pending.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
          > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
          > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
          > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
          > least went through.

          Robert Baty:

          > That's where it has already set history in getting them
          > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
          > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
          > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
          > will speed up the process.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
          > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

          Robert Baty:

          > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
          > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
          > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
          > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
          > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
          > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
          > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
          > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
          > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
          > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
          > and things like that that most people don't get such
          > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
          > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
          > government because of these exemptions.

          Robert Baty:

          > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
          > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
          > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
          > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
          > with a "b".

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Wow!

          Professor Mitch:

          > Just on the parsonage exemption.

          Robert Baty:

          > Right!

          Professor Mitch:

          > Wow!

          Robert Baty:

          > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
          > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
          > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
          > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
          > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

          Professor Mitch:

          > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
          > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
          > education could do.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Exactly!

          Professor Mitch:

          > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
          > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
          > religious institututions.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
          > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
          > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
          > lot of people.

          Robert Baty:

          > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
          > different category. A lot of people get property tax
          > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
          > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
          > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
          > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
          > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
          > University, you can have it too.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
          > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
          > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
          > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
          > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
          > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
          > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
          > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
          > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
          > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
          > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
          > and cantors.

          > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
          > church to say your are a minister and then you start
          > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners do to help your
          > cause. Do you have any ideas.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
          > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
          > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
          > them to get their candidate committed to the future
          > of the Code section.

          > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
          > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
          > suspect to her.

          > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
          > it was she said I don't like that.

          > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
          > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

          > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
          > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

          > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

          > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
          > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
          > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
          > set history in that they got standing.

          > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
          > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
          > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
          > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
          > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
          > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
          > IRC 107.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Agreed!

          > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
          > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
          > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
          > pay for the new flooring in your house.

          Professor Mitch:

          > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
          > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
          > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
          > in tax law class.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
          > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
          > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
          > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
          > tax free for your house.

          Professor Mitch:

          > Alright! Well, there you go!

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
          > A lot of people are not aware of it.

          > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
          > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
          > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
          > versed in what is going on.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
          > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
          > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
          > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
          > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > I agree!

          > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
          > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
          > more in depth.

          > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
          > This is fascinating.

          > Thank you so much for joining us.

          Robert Baty:

          > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

          Robert Baty:

          > Thank you!

          End Interview: About 61:00 mark

          ---------------------------------------------
          ---------------------------------------------

        • rlbaty50
          Ned, Is there something you do to your messages that causes them not to copy when the reply feature is used? When I used the list website to reply to your
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Ned,

            Is there something you do to your messages that causes them not to copy when the "reply" feature is used? When I used the list website to reply to your messages, your message did not copy over. I had to use other techniques.

            Also, if you don't have any particular reason for copying the entire post to which you are responding, you might delete the part you are not going to refer to in your reply.

            Ned, you wrote:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31309

            > Robert,
            >
            > One of the things I learned about myself
            > in AA was that I had an obsessive need to
            > be right.
            >
            > Even when I am, it can be a liability.
            > I struggle with it still.

            I understand.

            I struggle with it all the time, though I would not consider it a liability!

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
          • <ned@...>
            Robert, No, but this email service has numerous weaknesses. Try my other email, nednetterville@gmail.com One problem with the gmail address is that I don t
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Robert, No, but this email service has numerous weaknesses. Try my other email, nednetterville@...
              One problem with the gmail address is that I don't check it as often. Ned
              -------- Original Message --------
              Subject: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins
              Again!
              From: "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...>
              Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 5:46 pm
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

               
              Ned,

              Is there something you do to your messages that causes them not to copy when the "reply" feature is used? When I used the list website to reply to your messages, your message did not copy over. I had to use other techniques.

              Also, if you don't have any particular reason for copying the entire post to which you are responding, you might delete the part you are not going to refer to in your reply.

              Ned, you wrote:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31309

              > Robert,
              >
              > One of the things I learned about myself
              > in AA was that I had an obsessive need to
              > be right.
              >
              > Even when I am, it can be a liability.
              > I struggle with it still.

              I understand.

              I struggle with it all the time, though I would not consider it a liability!

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

            • rlbaty50
              To: John Wilson (Pepperdine) From: Robert Baty cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes) Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 16:34:52 -0400 Subject: RE: What it was you had a
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 21, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                To: John Wilson (Pepperdine)
                From: Robert Baty
                cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes)
                Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 16:34:52 -0400

                Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                John, John, John!

                You again exhibit the same sort of problem I have seen
                before, and, in my opinion, justify and vindicate my
                earlier replies.

                What you now claim as "all I (John Wilson) did..." is
                not all you did; and you had the help of your fellows
                in evading the substantive issues I was dealing with
                in the interview and in my brief exchange with your
                and the others related thereto.

                Following your message below is a history of that S-C
                List exchange that, I think, reveals what you and your
                fellows did in dealing with me and how I dealt with
                y'all in response.

                Maybe you and them can deal with your problems now.
                Maybe not.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                --------------John Wilson's Message---------------

                From: John Wilson (Pepperdine)
                To: Robert Baty
                Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 13:24:57 -0700

                Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                Robert:

                I have not stated my own opinion about the ministerial
                housing allowance nor have I commented on how it is
                interpreted at Pepperdine University, or anywhere else.

                You might be surprised to hear my own views, but having
                observed your general approach to "dialog" I'm afraid I
                can't see any value in discussing the matter with you.

                All I did was ask a very simple question:

                > What is the name of the "basketball minister"
                > at Pepperdine who receives a ministerial housing
                > allowance?

                There may be one, for all I know.

                If so, simply giving the name would have closed the matter.
                Or, another good answer would have been:

                > "I don't know."

                --John Wilson

                ---------------Stone Campbell List Exchange------------

                MESSAGE #1:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
                my radio interview last night.

                Did anybody catch it?

                Here's the archived link to the show:

                http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
                ion-vs-the-1st-amendment

                My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

                Prior to that time, they had a church/state
                lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #2:

                From: John.Wilson@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Robert:

                Could we have the name of the basketball coach
                at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
                housing allowance?

                --John Wilson

                ------------

                MESSAGE #3:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                John,

                You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
                the extent to which their employees exploit the
                allowable benefit.

                I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
                in the radio interview.

                If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
                minister" as representative of what has been allowed
                by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
                along with their request.

                Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
                things a long time ago.

                However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
                at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
                allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
                the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
                employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
                Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
                dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
                been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
                Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

                I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
                employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
                using the benefit and in what amounts.

                Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
                such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #4:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                John,

                Here's just a little followup for you, if you
                are interested.

                Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
                from a discussion about your question that took
                place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

                http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-c\
                oach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/

                (1)

                - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                -
                - This would be an interesting issue
                - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
                - actually claimed this exemption.
                - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
                - has been a member of the Church of
                - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
                - basketball coach has been eligible,
                - and no basketball coach has taken it.

                (2)

                - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                -
                - Actually, I've been corrected by a
                - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
                - current basketball coach is a member
                - of the Church of Christ, and has been
                - for years. We have no way of knowing
                - if he takes a ministerial housing
                - allowance, however. That information
                - is considered private and is not
                - disclosed, and for that matter, is
                - rarely discussed among Church of
                - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
                - most eligible individuals it's a
                - matter of conscience as to whether
                - or not they take it.

                (3)

                - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
                -
                - Thanks for the clarification.
                -
                - According to the 2010 Form 990
                - available on guidestar.org Thomas
                - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
                - had $267,140 of "reportable
                - compensation" and $48,120 of
                - "other compensation"...
                -
                - Can't tell for certain if there
                - is a housing allowance...

                ------------

                MESSAGE #5:

                From: John.Wilson@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Robert:

                It is not my responsibility to document the charge
                you made to an international audience, but yours.

                See Matt. 19:18.

                Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
                at Pepperdine.

                If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
                call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
                clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
                listen to.

                To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
                interview is very strange, to say the least.

                --John

                ------------

                MESSAGE #6:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                John,

                You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
                question something you claim I said that you claim
                was inappropriate.

                If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
                on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
                out and reply.

                If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
                wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
                welcome to do so.

                I'm game for such games.

                Let's play.

                The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #7:

                From: John.Wilson@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                I think enough has already been said to establish what
                has happened here.

                Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

                --John

                ------------

                MESSAGE #8:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                John,

                Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

                For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
                the predicament you have created for yourself and
                Pepperdine and its coaches.

                Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
                honestly with your charges against me, or not.

                You, John, have made some serious charges against me
                and that in an international forum.

                Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

                I would have preferred a different result, but such a
                result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
                myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #9:

                From: tom-olbricht@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
                have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
                on my income tax for the last three years.

                I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

                Robert Baty declares,

                > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
                > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

                To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
                ploy,

                > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
                > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

                Tom Olbricht

                ------------

                MESSAGE #10:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Tom,

                That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
                of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

                John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
                antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
                and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
                me.

                You would have done better to have just let him run off.

                John wrote, in part:

                > It is not my responsibility to document
                > the charge you made to an international
                > audience, but yours.

                > If you cannot do so, it would seem
                > that decency would call for a retraction
                > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
                > in the interview you suggested we all listen
                > to.

                What did I say that ticked John off?

                He didn't say?

                I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
                found no reason to retract anything I said about
                Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
                Revenue Ruling 70-549.

                Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

                Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
                to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
                in need of doing?

                Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
                on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
                they continue to cover for his retreat?

                It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
                than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
                with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
                challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
                exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
                Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
                problem our current tax laws and their administration).

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #11:

                From: gecooper2@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Robert,

                John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
                they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

                But I for one see your response to them as an old
                debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

                You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
                allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
                doing what is out of bounds.

                Only speculation.

                You have a simple solution to that: report your
                unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
                said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

                Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
                now can you.

                George Cooper

                ------------

                MESSAGE #12:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                George,

                You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

                If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
                I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
                the time of the quote so I can check what might have
                you so ticked off.

                Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
                hypocrite for me.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #13:

                From: keithprice@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Listers,

                I am not the least interested in this line
                of discussion.

                Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
                guidelines of the list.

                Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
                encouraging him with responses.

                Sincerely,
                Keith Price

                ------------

                MESSAGE #14:

                From: gecooper2@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

                I don't see as well as I did when I
                was younger and occasionally mistake
                a molehill I should avoid for a
                mountain worthy of scaling.

                Blessings on this Lord's Day,

                George Cooper

                ------------

                MESSAGE #15:

                From: randolph@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                I prefer to let you all self-manage;
                Keith is correct.

                Robert has made his point and we know
                from experience that engaging in
                conversation with him is not productive.

                Let's drop it.

                Robert M. Randolph
                Chaplain to the Institute
                Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                W-11 128
                617-258-xxxx

                ------------

                MESSAGE #16:

                From: tom-olbricht@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Robert,

                You win every argument because you always are
                in denial about any observation that nails you
                to the wall.

                You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
                You are the one who should be ashamed.

                Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
                longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

                What is it with you?

                You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
                do, but still damned if you don't!"

                ------------

                MESSAGE #17:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Tom,

                I may win every argument (I certainly did this
                time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

                Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
                to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
                and non-fallacious use.

                Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
                quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

                If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
                I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
                is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
                the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
                have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
                problem might be.

                Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
                details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
                the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

                Deal with it appropriately,
                or not.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------

                MESSAGE #18:

                From: michaelstrickland92@...
                To: stone-campbell@...
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

                Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                Listers,

                Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
                how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
                on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
                temporary removal of offenders from the list.

                Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

                My 2 cents.

                Sincerely,
                Michael

                ------------

                MESSAGE #19:

                From: randolph@...
                To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

                Subject: Stone-Campbell

                Robert,

                I have dropped you from the list.

                If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
                are willing to converse with civility.

                It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
                an opinion is due to advanced age.

                You ought to know better.

                What you offer the list is one topic and one
                topic only; we hear you, understand what you
                are interested in and what we get in return
                is your one issue.

                I expect better if you want to participate
                in the list ongoing.

                Robert M. Randolph
                Chaplain to the Institute
                Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                W-11 128
                617-258-xxxx

                ------------

                MESSAGE #20:

                From: rlbaty@...
                To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
                Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

                Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

                Robert,

                Thanks for the notification.

                If anyone there actually comes up with something
                I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
                them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

                Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

                I let list managers do what they will.

                Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
                civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
                Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
                of cover from the "good ol' boys".

                I hoped for better this time around regarding the
                important, public issues being discussed; but I
                can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                ------------
                ------------
              • rlbaty50
                To: John Wilson (Pepperdine) From: Robert Baty cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes) Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 19:32:10 -0400 Subject: RE: What it was you had a
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 21, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  To: John Wilson (Pepperdine)
                  From: Robert Baty
                  cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes)
                  Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 19:32:10 -0400

                  Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                  John,

                  You tell me what you were able to find out about
                  that, or what you have found out about that, and
                  what effort you have made to find out about that,
                  and what response(s) you have received from your
                  inquiries!

                  I'm hardly a preferred resource to hit up about
                  such things.

                  You might also consider James Wiser, who was quoted
                  by me earlier from his Forbes website appearance
                  regarding just such an issue.

                  My response to your question is in the original
                  series of messages (again copied below).

                  Let me know if you are able to get Pepperdine and/or
                  its employees in the basketball department to
                  officially, publicly admit or deny the extent to
                  which they exploit the income tax free ministerial
                  housing allowance benefit.

                  See also:

                  http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/news/2003/2003-10-30-minister.htm

                  Now, if there is something about what I said in my
                  radio interview, I am still waiting for the quote
                  and an explanation of your problem so that I might
                  be responsive to helping you out there. I am also
                  still waiting for you and yours to deal openly and
                  honestly with resolving your collective behavior
                  problems as exhibited in that recent exchange;
                  though I will not be holding my breath.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ----------------From John Wilson------------------

                  From: John Wilson
                  To: Robert Baty
                  Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 15:50:56 -0700

                  Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                  What is the name of the "basketball minister" at
                  Pepperdine who receives a ministerial housing allowance?

                  --John

                  ----------------Stone Campbell List Exchange----------

                  MESSAGE #1:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
                  my radio interview last night.

                  Did anybody catch it?

                  Here's the archived link to the show:

                  http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
                  ion-vs-the-1st-amendment

                  My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

                  Prior to that time, they had a church/state
                  lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #2:

                  From: John.Wilson@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Robert:

                  Could we have the name of the basketball coach
                  at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
                  housing allowance?

                  --John Wilson

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #3:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  John,

                  You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
                  the extent to which their employees exploit the
                  allowable benefit.

                  I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
                  in the radio interview.

                  If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
                  minister" as representative of what has been allowed
                  by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
                  along with their request.

                  Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
                  things a long time ago.

                  However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
                  at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
                  allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
                  the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
                  employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
                  Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
                  dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
                  been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
                  Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

                  I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
                  employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
                  using the benefit and in what amounts.

                  Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
                  such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #4:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  John,

                  Here's just a little followup for you, if you
                  are interested.

                  Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
                  from a discussion about your question that took
                  place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

                  http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-coach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/

                  (1)

                  - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                  -
                  - This would be an interesting issue
                  - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
                  - actually claimed this exemption.
                  - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
                  - has been a member of the Church of
                  - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
                  - basketball coach has been eligible,
                  - and no basketball coach has taken it.

                  (2)

                  - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                  -
                  - Actually, I've been corrected by a
                  - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
                  - current basketball coach is a member
                  - of the Church of Christ, and has been
                  - for years. We have no way of knowing
                  - if he takes a ministerial housing
                  - allowance, however. That information
                  - is considered private and is not
                  - disclosed, and for that matter, is
                  - rarely discussed among Church of
                  - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
                  - most eligible individuals it's a
                  - matter of conscience as to whether
                  - or not they take it.

                  (3)

                  - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
                  -
                  - Thanks for the clarification.
                  -
                  - According to the 2010 Form 990
                  - available on guidestar.org Thomas
                  - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
                  - had $267,140 of "reportable
                  - compensation" and $48,120 of
                  - "other compensation"...
                  -
                  - Can't tell for certain if there
                  - is a housing allowance...

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #5:

                  From: John.Wilson@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Robert:

                  It is not my responsibility to document the charge
                  you made to an international audience, but yours.

                  See Matt. 19:18.

                  Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
                  at Pepperdine.

                  If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
                  call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
                  clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
                  listen to.

                  To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
                  interview is very strange, to say the least.

                  --John

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #6:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  John,

                  You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
                  question something you claim I said that you claim
                  was inappropriate.

                  If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
                  on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
                  out and reply.

                  If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
                  wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
                  welcome to do so.

                  I'm game for such games.

                  Let's play.

                  The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #7:

                  From: John.Wilson@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  I think enough has already been said to establish what
                  has happened here.

                  Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

                  --John

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #8:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  John,

                  Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

                  For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
                  the predicament you have created for yourself and
                  Pepperdine and its coaches.

                  Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
                  honestly with your charges against me, or not.

                  You, John, have made some serious charges against me
                  and that in an international forum.

                  Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

                  I would have preferred a different result, but such a
                  result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
                  myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #9:

                  From: tom-olbricht@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
                  have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
                  on my income tax for the last three years.

                  I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

                  Robert Baty declares,

                  > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
                  > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

                  To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
                  ploy,

                  > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
                  > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

                  Tom Olbricht

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #10:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Tom,

                  That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
                  of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

                  John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
                  antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
                  and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
                  me.

                  You would have done better to have just let him run off.

                  John wrote, in part:

                  > It is not my responsibility to document
                  > the charge you made to an international
                  > audience, but yours.

                  > If you cannot do so, it would seem
                  > that decency would call for a retraction
                  > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
                  > in the interview you suggested we all listen
                  > to.

                  What did I say that ticked John off?

                  He didn't say?

                  I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
                  found no reason to retract anything I said about
                  Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
                  Revenue Ruling 70-549.

                  Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

                  Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
                  to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
                  in need of doing?

                  Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
                  on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
                  they continue to cover for his retreat?

                  It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
                  than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
                  with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
                  challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
                  exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
                  Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
                  problem our current tax laws and their administration).

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #11:

                  From: gecooper2@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Robert,

                  John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
                  they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

                  But I for one see your response to them as an old
                  debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

                  You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
                  allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
                  doing what is out of bounds.

                  Only speculation.

                  You have a simple solution to that: report your
                  unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
                  said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

                  Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
                  now can you.

                  George Cooper

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #12:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  George,

                  You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

                  If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
                  I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
                  the time of the quote so I can check what might have
                  you so ticked off.

                  Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
                  hypocrite for me.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #13:

                  From: keithprice@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Listers,

                  I am not the least interested in this line
                  of discussion.

                  Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
                  guidelines of the list.

                  Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
                  encouraging him with responses.

                  Sincerely,
                  Keith Price

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #14:

                  From: gecooper2@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

                  I don't see as well as I did when I
                  was younger and occasionally mistake
                  a molehill I should avoid for a
                  mountain worthy of scaling.

                  Blessings on this Lord's Day,

                  George Cooper

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #15:

                  From: randolph@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  I prefer to let you all self-manage;
                  Keith is correct.

                  Robert has made his point and we know
                  from experience that engaging in
                  conversation with him is not productive.

                  Let's drop it.

                  Robert M. Randolph
                  Chaplain to the Institute
                  Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                  W-11 128
                  617-258-xxxx

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #16:

                  From: tom-olbricht@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Robert,

                  You win every argument because you always are
                  in denial about any observation that nails you
                  to the wall.

                  You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
                  You are the one who should be ashamed.

                  Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
                  longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

                  What is it with you?

                  You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
                  do, but still damned if you don't!"

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #17:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Tom,

                  I may win every argument (I certainly did this
                  time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

                  Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
                  to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
                  and non-fallacious use.

                  Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
                  quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

                  If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
                  I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
                  is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
                  the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
                  have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
                  problem might be.

                  Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
                  details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
                  the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

                  Deal with it appropriately,
                  or not.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #18:

                  From: michaelstrickland92@...
                  To: stone-campbell@...
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

                  Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                  Listers,

                  Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
                  how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
                  on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
                  temporary removal of offenders from the list.

                  Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

                  My 2 cents.

                  Sincerely,
                  Michael

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #19:

                  From: randolph@...
                  To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

                  Subject: Stone-Campbell

                  Robert,

                  I have dropped you from the list.

                  If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
                  are willing to converse with civility.

                  It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
                  an opinion is due to advanced age.

                  You ought to know better.

                  What you offer the list is one topic and one
                  topic only; we hear you, understand what you
                  are interested in and what we get in return
                  is your one issue.

                  I expect better if you want to participate
                  in the list ongoing.

                  Robert M. Randolph
                  Chaplain to the Institute
                  Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                  W-11 128
                  617-258-xxxx

                  ------------

                  MESSAGE #20:

                  From: rlbaty@...
                  To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
                  Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

                  Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

                  Robert,

                  Thanks for the notification.

                  If anyone there actually comes up with something
                  I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
                  them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

                  Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

                  I let list managers do what they will.

                  Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
                  civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
                  Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
                  of cover from the "good ol' boys".

                  I hoped for better this time around regarding the
                  important, public issues being discussed; but I
                  can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  ------------
                  ------------
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