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Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins Again!

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  • rlbaty50
    ... I left some messages out of the earlier posting and there has been some important additions since my last posting. Despite my respect for the moderator s
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 17, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      ---

      I left some messages out of the earlier posting and there has been some important additions since my last posting.

      Despite my respect for the moderator's suggestion that the matter not be pursued, the good ol' boys just couldn't stand it, dished out some more, and then couldn't take it when I dished it back to them.

      Hypocrites!

      Rather than deal openly and honestly with their problems, the old scholars have gone underground rather than face me with their documented accusations.

      My comments about Pepperdine in the radio interview Friday drew some attention from some of the old scholars with direct ties to Pepperdine. Following are some references and then the exchange that took place on the Stone-Campbell discussion list operated through the computers of Abilene Christian University, a "sister" school to Pepperdine University.

      References:

      http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

      and

      http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/news/2003/2003-10-30-minister.htm

      and

      http://www.pepperdine.edu/pr/media/experts/member.htm?eid=jwilson

      and

      https://wipfandstock.com/store/Reflections_on_My_Life_in_the_Kingdom_and_the_Aca\
      demy/

      and

      http://studentlife.mit.edu/users/robert-m-randolph

      ------------

      MESSAGE #1:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
      my radio interview last night.

      Did anybody catch it?

      Here's the archived link to the show:

      http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

      My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

      Prior to that time, they had a church/state
      lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #2:

      From: John.Wilson@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert:

      Could we have the name of the basketball coach
      at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
      housing allowance?

      --John Wilson

      ------------

      MESSAGE #3:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
      the extent to which their employees exploit the
      allowable benefit.

      I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
      in the radio interview.

      If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
      minister" as representative of what has been allowed
      by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
      along with their request.

      Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
      things a long time ago.

      However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
      at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
      allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
      the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
      employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
      Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
      dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
      been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
      Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

      I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
      employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
      using the benefit and in what amounts.

      Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
      such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #4:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      Here's just a little followup for you, if you
      are interested.

      Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
      from a discussion about your question that took
      place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-coach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/

      (1)

      - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
      -
      - This would be an interesting issue
      - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
      - actually claimed this exemption.
      - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
      - has been a member of the Church of
      - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
      - basketball coach has been eligible,
      - and no basketball coach has taken it.

      (2)

      - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
      -
      - Actually, I've been corrected by a
      - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
      - current basketball coach is a member
      - of the Church of Christ, and has been
      - for years. We have no way of knowing
      - if he takes a ministerial housing
      - allowance, however. That information
      - is considered private and is not
      - disclosed, and for that matter, is
      - rarely discussed among Church of
      - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
      - most eligible individuals it's a
      - matter of conscience as to whether
      - or not they take it.

      (3)

      - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
      -
      - Thanks for the clarification.
      -
      - According to the 2010 Form 990
      - available on guidestar.org Thomas
      - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
      - had $267,140 of "reportable
      - compensation" and $48,120 of
      - "other compensation"...
      -
      - Can't tell for certain if there
      - is a housing allowance...

      ------------

      MESSAGE #5:

      From: John.Wilson@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert:

      It is not my responsibility to document the charge
      you made to an international audience, but yours.

      See Matt. 19:18.

      Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
      at Pepperdine.

      If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
      call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
      clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
      listen to.

      To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
      interview is very strange, to say the least.

      --John

      ------------

      MESSAGE #6:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
      question something you claim I said that you claim
      was inappropriate.

      If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
      on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
      out and reply.

      If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
      wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
      welcome to do so.

      I'm game for such games.

      Let's play.

      The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #7:

      From: John.Wilson@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      I think enough has already been said to establish what
      has happened here.

      Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

      --John

      ------------

      MESSAGE #8:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      John,

      Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

      For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
      the predicament you have created for yourself and
      Pepperdine and its coaches.

      Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
      honestly with your charges against me, or not.

      You, John, have made some serious charges against me
      and that in an international forum.

      Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

      I would have preferred a different result, but such a
      result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
      myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #9:

      From: tom-olbricht@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
      have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
      on my income tax for the last three years.

      I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

      Robert Baty declares,

      > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
      > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

      To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
      ploy,

      > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
      > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

      Tom Olbricht

      ------------

      MESSAGE #10:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Tom,

      That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
      of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

      John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
      antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
      and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
      me.

      You would have done better to have just let him run off.

      John wrote, in part:

      > It is not my responsibility to document
      > the charge you made to an international
      > audience, but yours.

      > If you cannot do so, it would seem
      > that decency would call for a retraction
      > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
      > in the interview you suggested we all listen
      > to.

      What did I say that ticked John off?

      He didn't say?

      I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
      found no reason to retract anything I said about
      Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
      Revenue Ruling 70-549.

      Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

      Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
      to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
      in need of doing?

      Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
      on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
      they continue to cover for his retreat?

      It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
      than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
      with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
      challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
      exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
      Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
      problem our current tax laws and their administration).

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #11:

      From: gecooper2@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert,

      John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
      they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

      But I for one see your response to them as an old
      debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

      You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
      allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
      doing what is out of bounds.

      Only speculation.

      You have a simple solution to that: report your
      unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
      said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

      Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
      now can you.

      George Cooper

      ------------

      MESSAGE #12:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      George,

      You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

      If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
      I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
      the time of the quote so I can check what might have
      you so ticked off.

      Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
      hypocrite for me.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #13:

      From: keithprice@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Listers,

      I am not the least interested in this line
      of discussion.

      Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
      guidelines of the list.

      Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
      encouraging him with responses.

      Sincerely,
      Keith Price

      ------------

      MESSAGE #14:

      From: gecooper2@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

      I don't see as well as I did when I
      was younger and occasionally mistake
      a molehill I should avoid for a
      mountain worthy of scaling.

      Blessings on this Lord's Day,

      George Cooper

      ------------

      MESSAGE #15:

      From: randolph@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      I prefer to let you all self-manage;
      Keith is correct.

      Robert has made his point and we know
      from experience that engaging in
      conversation with him is not productive.

      Let's drop it.

      Robert M. Randolph
      Chaplain to the Institute
      Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      W-11 128
      617-258-xxxx

      ------------

      MESSAGE #16:

      From: tom-olbricht@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Robert,

      You win every argument because you always are
      in denial about any observation that nails you
      to the wall.

      You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
      You are the one who should be ashamed.

      Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
      longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

      What is it with you?

      You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
      do, but still damned if you don't!"

      ------------

      MESSAGE #17:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Tom,

      I may win every argument (I certainly did this
      time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

      Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
      to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
      and non-fallacious use.

      Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
      quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

      If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
      I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
      is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
      the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
      have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
      problem might be.

      Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
      details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
      the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

      Deal with it appropriately,
      or not.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------

      MESSAGE #18:

      From: michaelstrickland92@...
      To: stone-campbell@...
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

      Listers,

      Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
      how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
      on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
      temporary removal of offenders from the list.

      Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

      My 2 cents.

      Sincerely,
      Michael

      ------------

      MESSAGE #19:

      From: randolph@...
      To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

      Subject: Stone-Campbell

      Robert,

      I have dropped you from the list.

      If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
      are willing to converse with civility.

      It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
      an opinion is due to advanced age.

      You ought to know better.

      What you offer the list is one topic and one
      topic only; we hear you, understand what you
      are interested in and what we get in return
      is your one issue.

      I expect better if you want to participate
      in the list ongoing.

      Robert M. Randolph
      Chaplain to the Institute
      Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      W-11 128
      617-258-xxxx

      ------------

      MESSAGE #20:

      From: rlbaty@...
      To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

      Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

      Robert,

      Thanks for the notification.

      If anyone there actually comes up with something
      I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
      them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

      Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

      I let list managers do what they will.

      Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
      civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
      Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
      of cover from the "good ol' boys".

      I hoped for better this time around regarding the
      important, public issues being discussed; but I
      can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------------
      ------------
    • rlbaty50
      I have now managed to transcribe my recent radio interview for ready reference regarding the Pepperdine controversy that took place on the scholarly
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        I have now managed to transcribe my recent radio interview for ready reference regarding the Pepperdine controversy that took place on the scholarly Stone-Campbell discussion list and inolving a number of high-profile Pepperdine apologists who thought they could sustain their challenge of me. When they lost, they had the moderator terminate my membership in that list.

        The Stone-Campbell list controversy is copied following the transcript.

        I was originally scheduled for the 50:00 - 60:00 minutes time slot in the first hour of the GodDiscussion program.

        http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

        TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

        Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

        Deborah Beeksma (host):

        > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
        > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
        > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
        > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
        > petitions at the White House where people can sign
        > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
        > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

        Robert, thank you for joining the show.

        Robert Baty (Guest):

        > Thank you for the invitation.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
        > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

        Robert Baty:

        > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
        > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
        > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
        > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
        > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
        > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
        > a house anywhere.

        > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
        > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
        > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
        > it attention and get something done about it.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
        > care?

        > Why did you file that petition?

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

        > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
        > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
        > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
        > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
        > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
        > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
        > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
        > Burleson on behalf of some of their constitutents in Texas.

        > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
        > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
        > to employees at private schools.

        > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
        > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
        > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
        > benefit.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
        > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
        > other organizations.

        > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
        > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
        > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

        Robert Baty:

        > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
        > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
        > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
        > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
        > and he didn't do anything about it.

        > Which is why I complain a lot.

        > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
        > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > HMMM!

        > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

        > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

        Professor Mitch (Guest):

        > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
        > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
        > thing.

        > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
        > the right thing to do.

        Robert Baty:

        > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
        > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
        > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
        > easily, but they won't.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
        > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
        > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
        > agree with that.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
        > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
        > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
        > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
        > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
        > out that is almost impervious to attack.

        > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
        > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
        > been challenged judicially.

        > There's no political will to change it so you have to
        > look to a judicial result.

        > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
        > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
        > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
        > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
        > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
        > case is pending.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
        > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
        > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
        > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
        > least went through.

        Robert Baty:

        > That's where it has already set history in getting them
        > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
        > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
        > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
        > will speed up the process.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
        > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

        Robert Baty:

        > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
        > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
        > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
        > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
        > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
        > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
        > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
        > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
        > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
        > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
        > and things like that that most people don't get such
        > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
        > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
        > government because of these exemptions.

        Robert Baty:

        > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
        > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
        > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
        > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
        > with a "b".

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Wow!

        Professor Mitch:

        > Just on the parsonage exemption.

        Robert Baty:

        > Right!

        Professor Mitch:

        > Wow!

        Robert Baty:

        > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
        > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
        > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
        > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
        > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

        Professor Mitch:

        > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
        > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
        > education could do.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Exactly!

        Professor Mitch:

        > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
        > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
        > religious institututions.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
        > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
        > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
        > lot of people.

        Robert Baty:

        > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
        > different category. A lot of people get property tax
        > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
        > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
        > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
        > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
        > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
        > University, you can have it too.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
        > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
        > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
        > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
        > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
        > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
        > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
        > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
        > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
        > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
        > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
        > and cantors.

        > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
        > church to say your are a minister and then you start
        > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners to help your
        > cause. Do you have any ideas.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
        > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
        > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
        > them to get their candidate committed to the future
        > of the Code section.

        > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
        > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
        > suspect to her.

        > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
        > it was she said I don't like that.

        > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
        > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

        > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
        > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

        > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

        > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
        > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
        > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
        > set history in that they got standing.

        > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
        > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
        > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
        > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
        > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
        > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
        > IRC 107.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Agreed!

        > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
        > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
        > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
        > pay for the new flooring in your house.

        Professor Mitch:

        > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
        > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
        > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
        > in tax law class.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
        > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
        > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
        > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
        > tax free for your house.

        Professor Mitch:

        > Alright! Well, there you go!

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
        > A lot of people are not aware of it.

        > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
        > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
        > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
        > versed in what is going on.

        Robert Baty:

        > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
        > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
        > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
        > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
        > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > I agree!

        > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
        > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
        > more in depth.

        > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
        > This is fascinating.

        > Thank you so much for joining us.

        Robert Baty:

        > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

        Deborah Beeksma:

        > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

        Robert Baty:

        > Thank you!

        End Interview: About 61:00 mark

        ---------------------------------------------------

        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
        "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote, in part:

        ------------

        MESSAGE #1:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
        my radio interview last night.

        Did anybody catch it?

        Here's the archived link to the show:

        http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
        ion-vs-the-1st-amendment

        My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

        Prior to that time, they had a church/state
        lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #2:

        From: John.Wilson@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Robert:

        Could we have the name of the basketball coach
        at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
        housing allowance?

        --John Wilson

        ------------

        MESSAGE #3:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        John,

        You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
        the extent to which their employees exploit the
        allowable benefit.

        I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
        in the radio interview.

        If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
        minister" as representative of what has been allowed
        by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
        along with their request.

        Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
        things a long time ago.

        However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
        at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
        allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
        the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
        employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
        Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
        dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
        been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
        Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

        I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
        employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
        using the benefit and in what amounts.

        Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
        such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #4:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        John,

        Here's just a little followup for you, if you
        are interested.

        Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
        from a discussion about your question that took
        place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

        http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-c\
        oach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/

        (1)

        - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
        -
        - This would be an interesting issue
        - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
        - actually claimed this exemption.
        - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
        - has been a member of the Church of
        - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
        - basketball coach has been eligible,
        - and no basketball coach has taken it.

        (2)

        - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
        -
        - Actually, I've been corrected by a
        - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
        - current basketball coach is a member
        - of the Church of Christ, and has been
        - for years. We have no way of knowing
        - if he takes a ministerial housing
        - allowance, however. That information
        - is considered private and is not
        - disclosed, and for that matter, is
        - rarely discussed among Church of
        - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
        - most eligible individuals it's a
        - matter of conscience as to whether
        - or not they take it.

        (3)

        - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
        -
        - Thanks for the clarification.
        -
        - According to the 2010 Form 990
        - available on guidestar.org Thomas
        - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
        - had $267,140 of "reportable
        - compensation" and $48,120 of
        - "other compensation"...
        -
        - Can't tell for certain if there
        - is a housing allowance...

        ------------

        MESSAGE #5:

        From: John.Wilson@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Robert:

        It is not my responsibility to document the charge
        you made to an international audience, but yours.

        See Matt. 19:18.

        Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
        at Pepperdine.

        If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
        call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
        clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
        listen to.

        To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
        interview is very strange, to say the least.

        --John

        ------------

        MESSAGE #6:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        John,

        You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
        question something you claim I said that you claim
        was inappropriate.

        If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
        on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
        out and reply.

        If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
        wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
        welcome to do so.

        I'm game for such games.

        Let's play.

        The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #7:

        From: John.Wilson@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        I think enough has already been said to establish what
        has happened here.

        Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

        --John

        ------------

        MESSAGE #8:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        John,

        Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

        For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
        the predicament you have created for yourself and
        Pepperdine and its coaches.

        Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
        honestly with your charges against me, or not.

        You, John, have made some serious charges against me
        and that in an international forum.

        Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

        I would have preferred a different result, but such a
        result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
        myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #9:

        From: tom-olbricht@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
        have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
        on my income tax for the last three years.

        I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

        Robert Baty declares,

        > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
        > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

        To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
        ploy,

        > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
        > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

        Tom Olbricht

        ------------

        MESSAGE #10:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Tom,

        That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
        of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

        John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
        antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
        and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
        me.

        You would have done better to have just let him run off.

        John wrote, in part:

        > It is not my responsibility to document
        > the charge you made to an international
        > audience, but yours.

        > If you cannot do so, it would seem
        > that decency would call for a retraction
        > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
        > in the interview you suggested we all listen
        > to.

        What did I say that ticked John off?

        He didn't say?

        I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
        found no reason to retract anything I said about
        Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
        Revenue Ruling 70-549.

        Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

        Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
        to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
        in need of doing?

        Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
        on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
        they continue to cover for his retreat?

        It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
        than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
        with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
        challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
        exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
        Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
        problem our current tax laws and their administration).

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #11:

        From: gecooper2@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Robert,

        John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
        they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

        But I for one see your response to them as an old
        debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

        You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
        allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
        doing what is out of bounds.

        Only speculation.

        You have a simple solution to that: report your
        unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
        said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

        Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
        now can you.

        George Cooper

        ------------

        MESSAGE #12:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        George,

        You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

        If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
        I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
        the time of the quote so I can check what might have
        you so ticked off.

        Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
        hypocrite for me.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #13:

        From: keithprice@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Listers,

        I am not the least interested in this line
        of discussion.

        Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
        guidelines of the list.

        Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
        encouraging him with responses.

        Sincerely,
        Keith Price

        ------------

        MESSAGE #14:

        From: gecooper2@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

        I don't see as well as I did when I
        was younger and occasionally mistake
        a molehill I should avoid for a
        mountain worthy of scaling.

        Blessings on this Lord's Day,

        George Cooper

        ------------

        MESSAGE #15:

        From: randolph@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        I prefer to let you all self-manage;
        Keith is correct.

        Robert has made his point and we know
        from experience that engaging in
        conversation with him is not productive.

        Let's drop it.

        Robert M. Randolph
        Chaplain to the Institute
        Massachusetts Institute of Technology
        W-11 128
        617-258-xxxx

        ------------

        MESSAGE #16:

        From: tom-olbricht@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Robert,

        You win every argument because you always are
        in denial about any observation that nails you
        to the wall.

        You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
        You are the one who should be ashamed.

        Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
        longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

        What is it with you?

        You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
        do, but still damned if you don't!"

        ------------

        MESSAGE #17:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Tom,

        I may win every argument (I certainly did this
        time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

        Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
        to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
        and non-fallacious use.

        Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
        quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

        If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
        I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
        is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
        the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
        have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
        problem might be.

        Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
        details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
        the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

        Deal with it appropriately,
        or not.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------

        MESSAGE #18:

        From: michaelstrickland92@...
        To: stone-campbell@...
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

        Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

        Listers,

        Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
        how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
        on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
        temporary removal of offenders from the list.

        Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

        My 2 cents.

        Sincerely,
        Michael

        ------------

        MESSAGE #19:

        From: randolph@...
        To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

        Subject: Stone-Campbell

        Robert,

        I have dropped you from the list.

        If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
        are willing to converse with civility.

        It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
        an opinion is due to advanced age.

        You ought to know better.

        What you offer the list is one topic and one
        topic only; we hear you, understand what you
        are interested in and what we get in return
        is your one issue.

        I expect better if you want to participate
        in the list ongoing.

        Robert M. Randolph
        Chaplain to the Institute
        Massachusetts Institute of Technology
        W-11 128
        617-258-xxxx

        ------------

        MESSAGE #20:

        From: rlbaty@...
        To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
        Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

        Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

        Robert,

        Thanks for the notification.

        If anyone there actually comes up with something
        I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
        them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

        Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

        I let list managers do what they will.

        Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
        civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
        Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
        of cover from the "good ol' boys".

        I hoped for better this time around regarding the
        important, public issues being discussed; but I
        can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------
        ------------
      • <ned@...>
        Robert, Maybe you should consider divorcing yourself from the church or churches or Christ as I did from the R.C. church. I think of myself not as a Christian
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Robert, Maybe you should consider divorcing yourself from the church or churches or Christ as I did from the R.C. church. I think of myself not as a Christian by rather as a disciple of Jesus. However, I would join a church if I could find a satisfactory one. ktf, Ned

          -------- Original Message --------
          Subject: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins
          Again!
          From: "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...>
          Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 12:35 pm
          To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

           
          I have now managed to transcribe my recent radio interview for ready reference regarding the Pepperdine controversy that took place on the scholarly Stone-Campbell discussion list and inolving a number of high-profile Pepperdine apologists who thought they could sustain their challenge of me. When they lost, they had the moderator terminate my membership in that list.

          The Stone-Campbell list controversy is copied following the transcript.

          I was originally scheduled for the 50:00 - 60:00 minutes time slot in the first hour of the GodDiscussion program.

          http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

          TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

          Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

          Deborah Beeksma (host):

          > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
          > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
          > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
          > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
          > petitions at the White House where people can sign
          > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
          > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

          Robert, thank you for joining the show.

          Robert Baty (Guest):

          > Thank you for the invitation.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
          > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

          Robert Baty:

          > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
          > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
          > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
          > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
          > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
          > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
          > a house anywhere.

          > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
          > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
          > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
          > it attention and get something done about it.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
          > care?

          > Why did you file that petition?

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

          > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
          > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
          > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
          > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
          > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
          > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
          > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
          > Burleson on behalf of some of their constitutents in Texas.

          > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
          > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
          > to employees at private schools.

          > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
          > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
          > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
          > benefit.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
          > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
          > other organizations.

          > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
          > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
          > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

          Robert Baty:

          > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
          > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
          > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
          > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
          > and he didn't do anything about it.

          > Which is why I complain a lot.

          > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
          > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > HMMM!

          > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

          > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

          Professor Mitch (Guest):

          > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
          > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
          > thing.

          > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
          > the right thing to do.

          Robert Baty:

          > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
          > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
          > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
          > easily, but they won't.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
          > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
          > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
          > agree with that.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
          > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
          > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
          > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
          > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
          > out that is almost impervious to attack.

          > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
          > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
          > been challenged judicially.

          > There's no political will to change it so you have to
          > look to a judicial result.

          > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
          > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
          > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
          > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
          > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
          > case is pending.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
          > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
          > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
          > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
          > least went through.

          Robert Baty:

          > That's where it has already set history in getting them
          > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
          > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
          > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
          > will speed up the process.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
          > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

          Robert Baty:

          > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
          > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
          > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
          > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
          > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
          > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
          > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
          > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
          > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
          > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
          > and things like that that most people don't get such
          > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
          > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
          > government because of these exemptions.

          Robert Baty:

          > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
          > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
          > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
          > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
          > with a "b".

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Wow!

          Professor Mitch:

          > Just on the parsonage exemption.

          Robert Baty:

          > Right!

          Professor Mitch:

          > Wow!

          Robert Baty:

          > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
          > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
          > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
          > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
          > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

          Professor Mitch:

          > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
          > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
          > education could do.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Exactly!

          Professor Mitch:

          > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
          > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
          > religious institututions.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
          > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
          > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
          > lot of people.

          Robert Baty:

          > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
          > different category. A lot of people get property tax
          > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
          > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
          > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
          > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
          > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
          > University, you can have it too.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
          > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
          > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
          > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
          > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
          > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
          > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
          > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
          > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
          > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
          > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
          > and cantors.

          > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
          > church to say your are a minister and then you start
          > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners to help your
          > cause. Do you have any ideas.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
          > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
          > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
          > them to get their candidate committed to the future
          > of the Code section.

          > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
          > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
          > suspect to her.

          > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
          > it was she said I don't like that.

          > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
          > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

          > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
          > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

          > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

          > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
          > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
          > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
          > set history in that they got standing.

          > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
          > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
          > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
          > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
          > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
          > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
          > IRC 107.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Agreed!

          > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
          > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
          > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
          > pay for the new flooring in your house.

          Professor Mitch:

          > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
          > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
          > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
          > in tax law class.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
          > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
          > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
          > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
          > tax free for your house.

          Professor Mitch:

          > Alright! Well, there you go!

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
          > A lot of people are not aware of it.

          > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
          > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
          > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
          > versed in what is going on.

          Robert Baty:

          > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
          > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
          > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
          > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
          > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > I agree!

          > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
          > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
          > more in depth.

          > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
          > This is fascinating.

          > Thank you so much for joining us.

          Robert Baty:

          > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

          Deborah Beeksma:

          > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

          Robert Baty:

          > Thank you!

          End Interview: About 61:00 mark

          ---------------------------------------------------

          --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
          "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote, in part:

          ------------

          MESSAGE #1:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
          my radio interview last night.

          Did anybody catch it?

          Here's the archived link to the show:

          http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
          ion-vs-the-1st-amendment


          My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

          Prior to that time, they had a church/state
          lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #2:

          From: John.Wilson@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Robert:

          Could we have the name of the basketball coach
          at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
          housing allowance?

          --John Wilson

          ------------

          MESSAGE #3:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          John,

          You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
          the extent to which their employees exploit the
          allowable benefit.

          I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
          in the radio interview.

          If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
          minister" as representative of what has been allowed
          by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
          along with their request.

          Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
          things a long time ago.

          However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
          at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
          allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
          the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
          employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
          Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
          dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
          been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
          Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

          I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
          employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
          using the benefit and in what amounts.

          Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
          such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #4:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          John,

          Here's just a little followup for you, if you
          are interested.

          Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
          from a discussion about your question that took
          place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

          http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-c\
          oach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/


          (1)

          - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
          -
          - This would be an interesting issue
          - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
          - actually claimed this exemption.
          - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
          - has been a member of the Church of
          - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
          - basketball coach has been eligible,
          - and no basketball coach has taken it.

          (2)

          - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
          -
          - Actually, I've been corrected by a
          - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
          - current basketball coach is a member
          - of the Church of Christ, and has been
          - for years. We have no way of knowing
          - if he takes a ministerial housing
          - allowance, however. That information
          - is considered private and is not
          - disclosed, and for that matter, is
          - rarely discussed among Church of
          - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
          - most eligible individuals it's a
          - matter of conscience as to whether
          - or not they take it.

          (3)

          - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
          -
          - Thanks for the clarification.
          -
          - According to the 2010 Form 990
          - available on guidestar.org Thomas
          - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
          - had $267,140 of "reportable
          - compensation" and $48,120 of
          - "other compensation"...
          -
          - Can't tell for certain if there
          - is a housing allowance...

          ------------

          MESSAGE #5:

          From: John.Wilson@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Robert:

          It is not my responsibility to document the charge
          you made to an international audience, but yours.

          See Matt. 19:18.

          Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
          at Pepperdine.

          If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
          call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
          clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
          listen to.

          To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
          interview is very strange, to say the least.

          --John

          ------------

          MESSAGE #6:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          John,

          You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
          question something you claim I said that you claim
          was inappropriate.

          If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
          on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
          out and reply.

          If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
          wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
          welcome to do so.

          I'm game for such games.

          Let's play.

          The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #7:

          From: John.Wilson@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          I think enough has already been said to establish what
          has happened here.

          Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

          --John

          ------------

          MESSAGE #8:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          John,

          Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

          For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
          the predicament you have created for yourself and
          Pepperdine and its coaches.

          Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
          honestly with your charges against me, or not.

          You, John, have made some serious charges against me
          and that in an international forum.

          Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

          I would have preferred a different result, but such a
          result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
          myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #9:

          From: tom-olbricht@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
          have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
          on my income tax for the last three years.

          I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

          Robert Baty declares,

          > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
          > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

          To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
          ploy,

          > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
          > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

          Tom Olbricht

          ------------

          MESSAGE #10:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Tom,

          That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
          of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

          John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
          antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
          and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
          me.

          You would have done better to have just let him run off.

          John wrote, in part:

          > It is not my responsibility to document
          > the charge you made to an international
          > audience, but yours.

          > If you cannot do so, it would seem
          > that decency would call for a retraction
          > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
          > in the interview you suggested we all listen
          > to.

          What did I say that ticked John off?

          He didn't say?

          I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
          found no reason to retract anything I said about
          Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
          Revenue Ruling 70-549.

          Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

          Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
          to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
          in need of doing?

          Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
          on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
          they continue to cover for his retreat?

          It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
          than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
          with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
          challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
          exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
          Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
          problem our current tax laws and their administration).

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #11:

          From: gecooper2@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Robert,

          John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
          they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

          But I for one see your response to them as an old
          debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

          You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
          allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
          doing what is out of bounds.

          Only speculation.

          You have a simple solution to that: report your
          unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
          said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

          Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
          now can you.

          George Cooper

          ------------

          MESSAGE #12:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          George,

          You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

          If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
          I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
          the time of the quote so I can check what might have
          you so ticked off.

          Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
          hypocrite for me.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #13:

          From: keithprice@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Listers,

          I am not the least interested in this line
          of discussion.

          Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
          guidelines of the list.

          Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
          encouraging him with responses.

          Sincerely,
          Keith Price

          ------------

          MESSAGE #14:

          From: gecooper2@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

          I don't see as well as I did when I
          was younger and occasionally mistake
          a molehill I should avoid for a
          mountain worthy of scaling.

          Blessings on this Lord's Day,

          George Cooper

          ------------

          MESSAGE #15:

          From: randolph@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          I prefer to let you all self-manage;
          Keith is correct.

          Robert has made his point and we know
          from experience that engaging in
          conversation with him is not productive.

          Let's drop it.

          Robert M. Randolph
          Chaplain to the Institute
          Massachusetts Institute of Technology
          W-11 128
          617-258-xxxx

          ------------

          MESSAGE #16:

          From: tom-olbricht@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Robert,

          You win every argument because you always are
          in denial about any observation that nails you
          to the wall.

          You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
          You are the one who should be ashamed.

          Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
          longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

          What is it with you?

          You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
          do, but still damned if you don't!"

          ------------

          MESSAGE #17:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Tom,

          I may win every argument (I certainly did this
          time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

          Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
          to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
          and non-fallacious use.

          Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
          quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

          If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
          I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
          is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
          the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
          have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
          problem might be.

          Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
          details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
          the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

          Deal with it appropriately,
          or not.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------

          MESSAGE #18:

          From: michaelstrickland92@...
          To: stone-campbell@...
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

          Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

          Listers,

          Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
          how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
          on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
          temporary removal of offenders from the list.

          Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

          My 2 cents.

          Sincerely,
          Michael

          ------------

          MESSAGE #19:

          From: randolph@...
          To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

          Subject: Stone-Campbell

          Robert,

          I have dropped you from the list.

          If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
          are willing to converse with civility.

          It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
          an opinion is due to advanced age.

          You ought to know better.

          What you offer the list is one topic and one
          topic only; we hear you, understand what you
          are interested in and what we get in return
          is your one issue.

          I expect better if you want to participate
          in the list ongoing.

          Robert M. Randolph
          Chaplain to the Institute
          Massachusetts Institute of Technology
          W-11 128
          617-258-xxxx

          ------------

          MESSAGE #20:

          From: rlbaty@...
          To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
          Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

          Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

          Robert,

          Thanks for the notification.

          If anyone there actually comes up with something
          I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
          them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

          Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

          I let list managers do what they will.

          Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
          civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
          Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
          of cover from the "good ol' boys".

          I hoped for better this time around regarding the
          important, public issues being discussed; but I
          can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------
          ------------

        • rlbaty50
          FORWARDED MESSAGE (for the record) To: John Wilson - Pepperdine University (S-C List Member) cc: Robert Randolph (S-C List Moderator) cc: Michael Strickland
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            FORWARDED MESSAGE (for the record)

            To: John Wilson - Pepperdine University (S-C List Member)

            cc: Robert Randolph (S-C List Moderator)
            cc: Michael Strickland (S-C List Member)
            cc: George Cooper (S-C List Member)
            cc: Tom Olbricht (S-C List Member)
            cc: Keith Price (S-C List Member)
            cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes Contributor)
            Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 19:28:15 -0400

            Subject: What it was you had a question about?

            John,

            Following my name below is my transcription of that
            radio interview you thought to call into question
            regarding something I said regarding Pepperdine
            University.

            If you have continuing question(s) regarding such
            things, maybe this transcript will help you to
            identify what, specifically, you wished to call
            into question.

            Just let me know and I will be glad to try and
            resolve any issues you may wish to raise.

            You had written, previously, publicly, to the
            international Stone-Campbell audience, in part:

            > It is not my responsibility to document
            > the charge you made to an international
            > audience, but yours.
            >
            > See Matt. 19:18.
            >
            > If you cannot do so, it would seem that
            > decency would call for a retraction of
            > your charge-a charge you clearly made
            > in the interview you suggested we all
            > listen to.
            >
            >> John Wilson
            >> Pepperdine University

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            ------------------Transcription--------------------------

            http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

            TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

            Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

            Deborah Beeksma (host):

            > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
            > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
            > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
            > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
            > petitions at the White House where people can sign
            > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
            > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

            Robert, thank you for joining the show.

            Robert Baty (Guest):

            > Thank you for the invitation.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
            > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

            Robert Baty:

            > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
            > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
            > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
            > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
            > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
            > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
            > a house anywhere.

            > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
            > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
            > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
            > it attention and get something done about it.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
            > care?

            > Why did you file that petition?

            Robert Baty:

            > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

            > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
            > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
            > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
            > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
            > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
            > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
            > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
            > Burleson on behalf of some of their constituents in Texas.

            > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
            > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
            > to employees at private schools.

            > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
            > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
            > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
            > benefit.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
            > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
            > other organizations.

            > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
            > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
            > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

            Robert Baty:

            > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
            > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
            > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
            > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
            > and he didn't do anything about it.

            > Which is why I complain a lot.

            > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
            > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > HMMM!

            > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

            > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

            Professor Mitch (Guest):

            > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
            > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
            > thing.

            > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
            > the right thing to do.

            Robert Baty:

            > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
            > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
            > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
            > easily, but they won't.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
            > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
            > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
            > agree with that.

            Robert Baty:

            > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
            > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
            > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
            > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
            > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
            > out that is almost impervious to attack.

            > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
            > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
            > been challenged judicially.

            > There's no political will to change it so you have to
            > look to a judicial result.

            > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
            > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
            > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
            > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
            > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
            > case is pending.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
            > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
            > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
            > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
            > least went through.

            Robert Baty:

            > That's where it has already set history in getting them
            > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
            > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
            > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
            > will speed up the process.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
            > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

            Robert Baty:

            > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
            > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
            > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
            > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
            > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
            > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
            > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
            > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
            > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
            > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
            > and things like that that most people don't get such
            > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
            > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
            > government because of these exemptions.

            Robert Baty:

            > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
            > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
            > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
            > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
            > with a "b".

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Wow!

            Professor Mitch:

            > Just on the parsonage exemption.

            Robert Baty:

            > Right!

            Professor Mitch:

            > Wow!

            Robert Baty:

            > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
            > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
            > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
            > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
            > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

            Professor Mitch:

            > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
            > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
            > education could do.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Exactly!

            Professor Mitch:

            > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
            > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
            > religious institututions.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
            > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
            > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
            > lot of people.

            Robert Baty:

            > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
            > different category. A lot of people get property tax
            > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
            > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
            > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
            > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
            > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
            > University, you can have it too.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
            > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
            > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
            > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
            > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
            > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
            > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

            Robert Baty:

            > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
            > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
            > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
            > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
            > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
            > and cantors.

            > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
            > church to say your are a minister and then you start
            > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners do to help your
            > cause. Do you have any ideas.

            Robert Baty:

            > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
            > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
            > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
            > them to get their candidate committed to the future
            > of the Code section.

            > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
            > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
            > suspect to her.

            > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
            > it was she said I don't like that.

            > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
            > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

            > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
            > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

            > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

            > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
            > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
            > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
            > set history in that they got standing.

            > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
            > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
            > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
            > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
            > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
            > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
            > IRC 107.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Agreed!

            > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
            > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
            > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
            > pay for the new flooring in your house.

            Professor Mitch:

            > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
            > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
            > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
            > in tax law class.

            Robert Baty:

            > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
            > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
            > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
            > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
            > tax free for your house.

            Professor Mitch:

            > Alright! Well, there you go!

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
            > A lot of people are not aware of it.

            > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
            > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
            > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
            > versed in what is going on.

            Robert Baty:

            > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
            > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
            > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
            > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
            > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > I agree!

            > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
            > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
            > more in depth.

            > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
            > This is fascinating.

            > Thank you so much for joining us.

            Robert Baty:

            > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

            Deborah Beeksma:

            > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

            Robert Baty:

            > Thank you!

            End Interview: About 61:00 mark

            ---------------------------------------------
            ---------------------------------------------
          • <ned@...>
            Robert, One of the things I learned about myself in AA was that I had an obsessive need to be right. Even when I am, it can be a liability. I struggle with it
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Robert, One of the things I learned about myself in AA was that I had an obsessive need to be right. Even when I am, it can be a liability. I struggle with it still. Ned

              -------- Original Message --------
              Subject: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins
              Again!
              From: "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...>
              Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 4:48 pm
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

               
              FORWARDED MESSAGE (for the record)

              To: John Wilson - Pepperdine University (S-C List Member)

              cc: Robert Randolph (S-C List Moderator)
              cc: Michael Strickland (S-C List Member)
              cc: George Cooper (S-C List Member)
              cc: Tom Olbricht (S-C List Member)
              cc: Keith Price (S-C List Member)
              cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes Contributor)
              Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 19:28:15 -0400

              Subject: What it was you had a question about?

              John,

              Following my name below is my transcription of that
              radio interview you thought to call into question
              regarding something I said regarding Pepperdine
              University.

              If you have continuing question(s) regarding such
              things, maybe this transcript will help you to
              identify what, specifically, you wished to call
              into question.

              Just let me know and I will be glad to try and
              resolve any issues you may wish to raise.

              You had written, previously, publicly, to the
              international Stone-Campbell audience, in part:

              > It is not my responsibility to document
              > the charge you made to an international
              > audience, but yours.
              >
              > See Matt. 19:18.
              >
              > If you cannot do so, it would seem that
              > decency would call for a retraction of
              > your charge-a charge you clearly made
              > in the interview you suggested we all
              > listen to.
              >
              >> John Wilson
              >> Pepperdine University

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              ------------------Transcription--------------------------

              http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-religion-vs-the-1st-amendment

              TRANSCRIPTION BY ROBERT BATY

              Beginning at about: 00:47:48 mark:

              Deborah Beeksma (host):

              > I want to bring in Robert Baty at this point because
              > religious institutions get some huge tax benefits,
              > and how I met Robert was that I reported on a little
              > story of his about ... he had submitted one of those
              > petitions at the White House where people can sign
              > and he had asked that the Internal Revenue Code, IRC
              > 107, be reviewed and maybe revoked.

              Robert, thank you for joining the show.

              Robert Baty (Guest):

              > Thank you for the invitation.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Can you tell you audience what IRC 107 is and the
              > benefits religious institutions receive from that.

              Robert Baty:

              > In simple terms, Internal Revenue Code Section 107
              > has two parts. One simply allows an income tax free
              > benefit to ministers who live in a house owned by a
              > church. The other part, which is more problematic,
              > allows a minister who is paid in cash to receive
              > income tax free money to the extent he spends it on
              > a house anywhere.

              > The petition I filed was just somewhat by accident and
              > is one cog in a big wheel in my feeble efforts to draw
              > attention to the problem and encourage people to give
              > it attention and get something done about it.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Now, you're a retired IRS Appeals Officer so why do you
              > care?

              > Why did you file that petition?

              Robert Baty:

              > Well, I'm not just a retired IRS Appeals Officer.

              > I'm a U.S. citizen, a church member, and people have
              > encouraged me over the years to get involved in something.
              > This is the something I have chosen to get involved in;
              > going back 30 years when I worked for the IRS and saw how
              > the IRS compromised itself as a Government agency,
              > compromised the church which I belong to, and that was in
              > response to some arm-twisting by George Bush, Sr. and Omar
              > Burleson on behalf of some of their constituents in Texas.

              > And the result of that arm-twisting was a ruling that
              > allowed the IRS to give away that income tax free benefit
              > to employees at private schools.

              > So, if you are the basketball minister at Pepperdine
              > University, for instance, and sign up as a minister, go
              > ahead, claim a $50,000.00, $100,000.00 income tax free
              > benefit.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Well, these humble little parsonages. The Richard
              > Dawkins Foundation was talking about that and some
              > other organizations.

              > So, looking at Joyce Meyers, what is her humble little
              > parsonage for this income exclusion worth; what is it,
              > like $6,000,000.00 or something.

              Robert Baty:

              > It just so happens that Joyce Meyers was one of the 6
              > million dollar ministers that Grassley investigated for
              > 3 years. As far as the housing allowance issue, he
              > found all sorts of problems with how that was operated
              > and he didn't do anything about it.

              > Which is why I complain a lot.

              > He punted over to his religious friends to think about
              > it for a few more years; nothing was done about it.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > HMMM!

              > Yeah, I remember all of that; that we were reporting on it.

              > Mitch, do you have any thoughts on this exemption.

              Professor Mitch (Guest):

              > You know, I must confess this aspect of tax law is arcane
              > for me and I don't, I don't...tax law was never my favorite
              > thing.

              > So...I don't...but I like the fight. It sounds like it's
              > the right thing to do.

              Robert Baty:

              > It's one of the simplest areas of tax law in my opinion.
              > And in light of all the recent discussion and the politics
              > this is one area they should be able to go in and fix real
              > easily, but they won't.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Yeah, you said you were a member of a church. So, when
              > you hear these, what do you think about these cries about
              > religious liberty being damaged in America, etc., do you
              > agree with that.

              Robert Baty:

              > Well, I have mixed feelings depending on the particulars.
              > As I indicated, I think the Government transgressed in
              > allowing private individuals to drag the church in to
              > their tax problems by this ruling Bush and Burleson got
              > together. That's what really ticked me off and I found
              > out that is almost impervious to attack.

              > The underlying problem is the law is unconstitutional
              > according to many tax and legal scholars and it's never
              > been challenged judicially.

              > There's no political will to change it so you have to
              > look to a judicial result.

              > It just so happens that one day I mentioned to Annie
              > Gaylor that she ought to take up the cause because
              > Professor Chemerinsky let us down. He had pledged to
              > do it but he got busy with other things and didn't get
              > around to it. Annie Gaylor decided to do it and her
              > case is pending.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Right! Well at least they got standing this time.
              > Usually all of those cases by cases by Annie Gaylor or
              > Freedom From Religion Foundation; seems like they are
              > always dismissed for lack of standing, but this one at
              > least went through.

              Robert Baty:

              > That's where it has already set history in getting them
              > standing. Trial is next January and hopefully they'll
              > get some motions filed this summer that might get a
              > summary judgment and won't have to go to trial and it
              > will speed up the process.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Excellent! Now, did you get enough petition signatures
              > or are you going to try it again or did it go through?

              Robert Baty:

              > No, I didn't get enough. When my petition was active
              > you need 25,000 signatures in 30 days. They were getting
              > so many petitions I guess they changed the rule and now
              > you have to get 100,000 signatures in 30 days. I just
              > don't know anybody and don't have the organization. I
              > don't know why we didn't get 25,000 signatures, but we
              > didn't. That gimmick came and went, and I encourage
              > people to support the FFRF lawsuit and publicize it as
              > much as they can; as it makes its way through the judiciary.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Well, they even get exemptions like for their home
              > improvements like for a pool table in the rec. room,
              > and things like that that most people don't get such
              > types of exemptions. Do you have a ballpark guesstimate
              > as far as how much revenue is lost to the federal
              > government because of these exemptions.

              Robert Baty:

              > I've seen different estimates. I don't know how good the
              > estimates are because I don't know where they get the
              > numbers behind it. I would guess currently people would
              > estimate around a billion dollars in tax a year, that's
              > with a "b".

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Wow!

              Professor Mitch:

              > Just on the parsonage exemption.

              Robert Baty:

              > Right!

              Professor Mitch:

              > Wow!

              Robert Baty:

              > Joyce Meyers contributes quite a bit to that and people
              > like Bennie Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and even Phil
              > Driscoll the horn player, tax cheater that went to prison.
              > He went to court over hundreds of thousands of dollars a
              > year; he wanted two houses exempted instead of just one.

              Professor Mitch:

              > Every time I hear something like this I think what that
              > money could do for our society with an extra billion for
              > education could do.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Exactly!

              Professor Mitch:

              > Not to mention the billions and billions that are lost
              > to the general tax exemption for churches and other
              > religious institututions.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > I think Reuters reported somelthing like $60 billion
              > or so, it was just this outrageous amount of money.
              > It could save so many legitimate programs and help a
              > lot of people.

              Robert Baty:

              > The property tax exemptions I think are in a completely
              > different category. A lot of people get property tax
              > exemptions and churches are just one of them. But IRC
              > 107 allows that income tax free benefit only to ministers,
              > and in unlimited amounts, and the IRS has said,
              > administratively, you don't just have to preach for the
              > local church, if you coach basketball at Pepperdine
              > University, you can have it too.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Now, what about these people. We did a show awhile ago
              > showing how easy it is to become a minister; you could
              > sign up at, I don't recall the name of the site, it
              > takes about 5 minutes, it's free. If you're a minister
              > you can marry people, whatever. I know in my state it's
              > recognized. Can people just do that and say they are a
              > minister and get all these tax exemptions.

              Robert Baty:

              > Well, some of those may be questionable. But some
              > religious groups, everybody is a minister; theoretically,
              > "priesthood of the believers". Other religious groups
              > are a little more restrictive. In the Jewish religion
              > the benefit has only been allowed, typically, to rabbis
              > and cantors.

              > For the people out at Pepperdine you get your local
              > church to say your are a minister and then you start
              > getting tax free income if you work for Pepperdine.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Good grief! Now, what can we as listeners do to help your
              > cause. Do you have any ideas.

              Robert Baty:

              > Well, talk to your representatives. All through the
              > election, being in Colorado, I had people coming by
              > and calling all the time and I never could get any of
              > them to get their candidate committed to the future
              > of the Code section.

              > Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, was the only
              > candidate I know of that came out and said sounded
              > suspect to her.

              > She wasn't familiar with it, but when she was told what
              > it was she said I don't like that.

              > That was in an interview with Peter J. Reilly of Forbes
              > magazine, contributor to their on-line magazine.

              > Otherwise, I'd call up Annie Gaylor and tell her, I
              > heard about this on the radio and I support your cause.

              > Talk to the media and get them to give it some coverage.

              > It's in my opinion a sleeper for now. While FFRF files
              > a lot of things for PR purposes, this is one I think has
              > substantial merit. As we said earlier, it has already
              > set history in that they got standing.

              > Although, the Government has pledged to fight that. I'd
              > make an analogy between this case and the DOMA you were
              > talking about earlier. The Justice Department backed off
              > somewhat in the DOMA case. This is another case where
              > people ought to get busy and active and see if they can't
              > get the Justice Department to back off trying to defend
              > IRC 107.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Agreed!

              > Well, Professor Mitch, maybe we should start calling you
              > Reverend Mitch and then you could get all kinds of tax
              > write-offs and HD, you could be Reverend HD and that'll
              > pay for the new flooring in your house.

              Professor Mitch:

              > I actually did go to one of those sites and get myself
              > ordained. I guess I'm due for all sorts of benefits I
              > didn't know about. I should have paid more attention
              > in tax law class.

              Robert Baty:

              > Well, you have to be a minister and you have to work for
              > the right people. If you worked for Colorado State
              > University it might not do you any good. If you worked
              > for Pepperdine, just tell them how much you want income
              > tax free for your house.

              Professor Mitch:

              > Alright! Well, there you go!

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Well, Robert, thank you so much for filling us in on this.
              > A lot of people are not aware of it.

              > FFRF has been doing a lot on this as well as Richard
              > Dawkins Foundation, but society as a whole I think is
              > just waking up to this, but they are not very well
              > versed in what is going on.

              Robert Baty:

              > Well, I hope they start to wake up. I've been crying in
              > the wilderness for awhile and I'd like to see somebody
              > that knows more and can do more than I can. I'll give
              > my two cents worth and help out where I can. So, I just
              > would like to see it speeded up a bit.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > I agree!

              > Well, good! Good job, Robert, and maybe we could have
              > you on the show again to talk about this a little bit
              > more in depth.

              > We've got a lot of people lined up tonight.
              > This is fascinating.

              > Thank you so much for joining us.

              Robert Baty:

              > You are welcome, you got my numbers if I can be of help.

              Deborah Beeksma:

              > Alrighty, well thank you sir.

              Robert Baty:

              > Thank you!

              End Interview: About 61:00 mark

              ---------------------------------------------
              ---------------------------------------------

            • rlbaty50
              Ned, Is there something you do to your messages that causes them not to copy when the reply feature is used? When I used the list website to reply to your
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Ned,

                Is there something you do to your messages that causes them not to copy when the "reply" feature is used? When I used the list website to reply to your messages, your message did not copy over. I had to use other techniques.

                Also, if you don't have any particular reason for copying the entire post to which you are responding, you might delete the part you are not going to refer to in your reply.

                Ned, you wrote:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31309

                > Robert,
                >
                > One of the things I learned about myself
                > in AA was that I had an obsessive need to
                > be right.
                >
                > Even when I am, it can be a liability.
                > I struggle with it still.

                I understand.

                I struggle with it all the time, though I would not consider it a liability!

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
              • <ned@...>
                Robert, No, but this email service has numerous weaknesses. Try my other email, nednetterville@gmail.com One problem with the gmail address is that I don t
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 20, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Robert, No, but this email service has numerous weaknesses. Try my other email, nednetterville@...
                  One problem with the gmail address is that I don't check it as often. Ned
                  -------- Original Message --------
                  Subject: [M & B] Re: Pepperdine Apologists Go Underground: Baty Wins
                  Again!
                  From: "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...>
                  Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 5:46 pm
                  To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                   
                  Ned,

                  Is there something you do to your messages that causes them not to copy when the "reply" feature is used? When I used the list website to reply to your messages, your message did not copy over. I had to use other techniques.

                  Also, if you don't have any particular reason for copying the entire post to which you are responding, you might delete the part you are not going to refer to in your reply.

                  Ned, you wrote:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/31309

                  > Robert,
                  >
                  > One of the things I learned about myself
                  > in AA was that I had an obsessive need to
                  > be right.
                  >
                  > Even when I am, it can be a liability.
                  > I struggle with it still.

                  I understand.

                  I struggle with it all the time, though I would not consider it a liability!

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                • rlbaty50
                  To: John Wilson (Pepperdine) From: Robert Baty cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes) Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 16:34:52 -0400 Subject: RE: What it was you had a
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 21, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    To: John Wilson (Pepperdine)
                    From: Robert Baty
                    cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes)
                    Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 16:34:52 -0400

                    Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                    John, John, John!

                    You again exhibit the same sort of problem I have seen
                    before, and, in my opinion, justify and vindicate my
                    earlier replies.

                    What you now claim as "all I (John Wilson) did..." is
                    not all you did; and you had the help of your fellows
                    in evading the substantive issues I was dealing with
                    in the interview and in my brief exchange with your
                    and the others related thereto.

                    Following your message below is a history of that S-C
                    List exchange that, I think, reveals what you and your
                    fellows did in dealing with me and how I dealt with
                    y'all in response.

                    Maybe you and them can deal with your problems now.
                    Maybe not.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    --------------John Wilson's Message---------------

                    From: John Wilson (Pepperdine)
                    To: Robert Baty
                    Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 13:24:57 -0700

                    Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                    Robert:

                    I have not stated my own opinion about the ministerial
                    housing allowance nor have I commented on how it is
                    interpreted at Pepperdine University, or anywhere else.

                    You might be surprised to hear my own views, but having
                    observed your general approach to "dialog" I'm afraid I
                    can't see any value in discussing the matter with you.

                    All I did was ask a very simple question:

                    > What is the name of the "basketball minister"
                    > at Pepperdine who receives a ministerial housing
                    > allowance?

                    There may be one, for all I know.

                    If so, simply giving the name would have closed the matter.
                    Or, another good answer would have been:

                    > "I don't know."

                    --John Wilson

                    ---------------Stone Campbell List Exchange------------

                    MESSAGE #1:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
                    my radio interview last night.

                    Did anybody catch it?

                    Here's the archived link to the show:

                    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
                    ion-vs-the-1st-amendment

                    My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

                    Prior to that time, they had a church/state
                    lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #2:

                    From: John.Wilson@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Robert:

                    Could we have the name of the basketball coach
                    at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
                    housing allowance?

                    --John Wilson

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #3:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    John,

                    You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
                    the extent to which their employees exploit the
                    allowable benefit.

                    I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
                    in the radio interview.

                    If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
                    minister" as representative of what has been allowed
                    by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
                    along with their request.

                    Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
                    things a long time ago.

                    However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
                    at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
                    allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
                    the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
                    employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
                    Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
                    dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
                    been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
                    Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

                    I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
                    employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
                    using the benefit and in what amounts.

                    Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
                    such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #4:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    John,

                    Here's just a little followup for you, if you
                    are interested.

                    Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
                    from a discussion about your question that took
                    place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

                    http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-c\
                    oach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/

                    (1)

                    - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                    -
                    - This would be an interesting issue
                    - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
                    - actually claimed this exemption.
                    - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
                    - has been a member of the Church of
                    - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
                    - basketball coach has been eligible,
                    - and no basketball coach has taken it.

                    (2)

                    - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                    -
                    - Actually, I've been corrected by a
                    - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
                    - current basketball coach is a member
                    - of the Church of Christ, and has been
                    - for years. We have no way of knowing
                    - if he takes a ministerial housing
                    - allowance, however. That information
                    - is considered private and is not
                    - disclosed, and for that matter, is
                    - rarely discussed among Church of
                    - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
                    - most eligible individuals it's a
                    - matter of conscience as to whether
                    - or not they take it.

                    (3)

                    - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
                    -
                    - Thanks for the clarification.
                    -
                    - According to the 2010 Form 990
                    - available on guidestar.org Thomas
                    - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
                    - had $267,140 of "reportable
                    - compensation" and $48,120 of
                    - "other compensation"...
                    -
                    - Can't tell for certain if there
                    - is a housing allowance...

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #5:

                    From: John.Wilson@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Robert:

                    It is not my responsibility to document the charge
                    you made to an international audience, but yours.

                    See Matt. 19:18.

                    Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
                    at Pepperdine.

                    If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
                    call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
                    clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
                    listen to.

                    To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
                    interview is very strange, to say the least.

                    --John

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #6:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    John,

                    You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
                    question something you claim I said that you claim
                    was inappropriate.

                    If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
                    on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
                    out and reply.

                    If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
                    wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
                    welcome to do so.

                    I'm game for such games.

                    Let's play.

                    The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #7:

                    From: John.Wilson@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    I think enough has already been said to establish what
                    has happened here.

                    Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

                    --John

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #8:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    John,

                    Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

                    For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
                    the predicament you have created for yourself and
                    Pepperdine and its coaches.

                    Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
                    honestly with your charges against me, or not.

                    You, John, have made some serious charges against me
                    and that in an international forum.

                    Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

                    I would have preferred a different result, but such a
                    result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
                    myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #9:

                    From: tom-olbricht@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
                    have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
                    on my income tax for the last three years.

                    I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

                    Robert Baty declares,

                    > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
                    > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

                    To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
                    ploy,

                    > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
                    > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

                    Tom Olbricht

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #10:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Tom,

                    That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
                    of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

                    John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
                    antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
                    and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
                    me.

                    You would have done better to have just let him run off.

                    John wrote, in part:

                    > It is not my responsibility to document
                    > the charge you made to an international
                    > audience, but yours.

                    > If you cannot do so, it would seem
                    > that decency would call for a retraction
                    > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
                    > in the interview you suggested we all listen
                    > to.

                    What did I say that ticked John off?

                    He didn't say?

                    I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
                    found no reason to retract anything I said about
                    Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
                    Revenue Ruling 70-549.

                    Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

                    Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
                    to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
                    in need of doing?

                    Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
                    on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
                    they continue to cover for his retreat?

                    It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
                    than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
                    with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
                    challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
                    exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
                    Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
                    problem our current tax laws and their administration).

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #11:

                    From: gecooper2@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Robert,

                    John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
                    they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

                    But I for one see your response to them as an old
                    debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

                    You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
                    allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
                    doing what is out of bounds.

                    Only speculation.

                    You have a simple solution to that: report your
                    unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
                    said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

                    Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
                    now can you.

                    George Cooper

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #12:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    George,

                    You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

                    If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
                    I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
                    the time of the quote so I can check what might have
                    you so ticked off.

                    Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
                    hypocrite for me.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #13:

                    From: keithprice@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Listers,

                    I am not the least interested in this line
                    of discussion.

                    Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
                    guidelines of the list.

                    Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
                    encouraging him with responses.

                    Sincerely,
                    Keith Price

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #14:

                    From: gecooper2@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

                    I don't see as well as I did when I
                    was younger and occasionally mistake
                    a molehill I should avoid for a
                    mountain worthy of scaling.

                    Blessings on this Lord's Day,

                    George Cooper

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #15:

                    From: randolph@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    I prefer to let you all self-manage;
                    Keith is correct.

                    Robert has made his point and we know
                    from experience that engaging in
                    conversation with him is not productive.

                    Let's drop it.

                    Robert M. Randolph
                    Chaplain to the Institute
                    Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                    W-11 128
                    617-258-xxxx

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #16:

                    From: tom-olbricht@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Robert,

                    You win every argument because you always are
                    in denial about any observation that nails you
                    to the wall.

                    You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
                    You are the one who should be ashamed.

                    Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
                    longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

                    What is it with you?

                    You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
                    do, but still damned if you don't!"

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #17:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Tom,

                    I may win every argument (I certainly did this
                    time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

                    Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
                    to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
                    and non-fallacious use.

                    Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
                    quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

                    If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
                    I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
                    is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
                    the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
                    have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
                    problem might be.

                    Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
                    details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
                    the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

                    Deal with it appropriately,
                    or not.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #18:

                    From: michaelstrickland92@...
                    To: stone-campbell@...
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

                    Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                    Listers,

                    Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
                    how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
                    on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
                    temporary removal of offenders from the list.

                    Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

                    My 2 cents.

                    Sincerely,
                    Michael

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #19:

                    From: randolph@...
                    To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

                    Subject: Stone-Campbell

                    Robert,

                    I have dropped you from the list.

                    If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
                    are willing to converse with civility.

                    It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
                    an opinion is due to advanced age.

                    You ought to know better.

                    What you offer the list is one topic and one
                    topic only; we hear you, understand what you
                    are interested in and what we get in return
                    is your one issue.

                    I expect better if you want to participate
                    in the list ongoing.

                    Robert M. Randolph
                    Chaplain to the Institute
                    Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                    W-11 128
                    617-258-xxxx

                    ------------

                    MESSAGE #20:

                    From: rlbaty@...
                    To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
                    Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

                    Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

                    Robert,

                    Thanks for the notification.

                    If anyone there actually comes up with something
                    I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
                    them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

                    Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

                    I let list managers do what they will.

                    Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
                    civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
                    Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
                    of cover from the "good ol' boys".

                    I hoped for better this time around regarding the
                    important, public issues being discussed; but I
                    can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    ------------
                    ------------
                  • rlbaty50
                    To: John Wilson (Pepperdine) From: Robert Baty cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes) Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 19:32:10 -0400 Subject: RE: What it was you had a
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 21, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      To: John Wilson (Pepperdine)
                      From: Robert Baty
                      cc: Peter J. Reilly (Forbes)
                      Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 19:32:10 -0400

                      Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                      John,

                      You tell me what you were able to find out about
                      that, or what you have found out about that, and
                      what effort you have made to find out about that,
                      and what response(s) you have received from your
                      inquiries!

                      I'm hardly a preferred resource to hit up about
                      such things.

                      You might also consider James Wiser, who was quoted
                      by me earlier from his Forbes website appearance
                      regarding just such an issue.

                      My response to your question is in the original
                      series of messages (again copied below).

                      Let me know if you are able to get Pepperdine and/or
                      its employees in the basketball department to
                      officially, publicly admit or deny the extent to
                      which they exploit the income tax free ministerial
                      housing allowance benefit.

                      See also:

                      http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/news/2003/2003-10-30-minister.htm

                      Now, if there is something about what I said in my
                      radio interview, I am still waiting for the quote
                      and an explanation of your problem so that I might
                      be responsive to helping you out there. I am also
                      still waiting for you and yours to deal openly and
                      honestly with resolving your collective behavior
                      problems as exhibited in that recent exchange;
                      though I will not be holding my breath.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ----------------From John Wilson------------------

                      From: John Wilson
                      To: Robert Baty
                      Date: Thursday, March 21, 2013 15:50:56 -0700

                      Subject: RE: What it was you had a question about?

                      What is the name of the "basketball minister" at
                      Pepperdine who receives a ministerial housing allowance?

                      --John

                      ----------------Stone Campbell List Exchange----------

                      MESSAGE #1:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:54:47 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      I mentioned Pepperdine a couple of times in
                      my radio interview last night.

                      Did anybody catch it?

                      Here's the archived link to the show:

                      http://www.blogtalkradio.com/god-discussion/2013/03/16/who-would-jesus-sue-relig\
                      ion-vs-the-1st-amendment

                      My segment starts at about the 48:00 minute mark.

                      Prior to that time, they had a church/state
                      lawyer on who discussed some of the "gay" issues.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #2:

                      From: John.Wilson@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:20:15 -0700

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Robert:

                      Could we have the name of the basketball coach
                      at Pepperdine University who receives the ministerial
                      housing allowance?

                      --John Wilson

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #3:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:31:32 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      John,

                      You will have to check with Pepperdine regarding
                      the extent to which their employees exploit the
                      allowable benefit.

                      I don't recall how I specifically framed my comments
                      in the radio interview.

                      If you don't already know, I use the "basketball
                      minister" as representative of what has been allowed
                      by the IRS since Bush and Burleson got the IRS to go
                      along with their request.

                      Pepperdine officials quit talkin' to me about such
                      things a long time ago.

                      However, Jerry Jobe was the actual "basketball minister"
                      at Oklahoma Christian who was, as the "test case",
                      allowed the income tax free benefit per IRC 107 and
                      the Bush/Burleson ruling. There were also numerous
                      employees named in the litigated case involving Lubbock
                      Christian employees (litigated only on a computational
                      dispute). Otherwise, the good brethren seem to have
                      been pretty good at keeping their exploitation of the
                      Bush/Burleson rule out of the public spotlight.

                      I don't know if Pepperdine or any of its high profile
                      employees (i.e., basketball ministers) would admit to
                      using the benefit and in what amounts.

                      Let us know if you are able to get any commitments on
                      such from Pepperdine and/or its coaches.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #4:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 15:42:08 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      John,

                      Here's just a little followup for you, if you
                      are interested.

                      Following are some of the comments (excerpts)
                      from a discussion about your question that took
                      place some time ago on the Forbes on-line website.

                      http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/02/22/should-jeremy-lins-college-coach-get-a-tax-break-for-being-a-congregationalist/

                      (1)

                      - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                      -
                      - This would be an interesting issue
                      - if any Pepperdine basketball coach
                      - actually claimed this exemption.
                      - Since no Pepperdine basketball coach
                      - has been a member of the Church of
                      - Christ for decades, no Pepperdine
                      - basketball coach has been eligible,
                      - and no basketball coach has taken it.

                      (2)

                      - From: James Wiser 1 year ago
                      -
                      - Actually, I've been corrected by a
                      - friend more in the know: Pepperdine's
                      - current basketball coach is a member
                      - of the Church of Christ, and has been
                      - for years. We have no way of knowing
                      - if he takes a ministerial housing
                      - allowance, however. That information
                      - is considered private and is not
                      - disclosed, and for that matter, is
                      - rarely discussed among Church of
                      - Christ members at Pepperdine. For
                      - most eligible individuals it's a
                      - matter of conscience as to whether
                      - or not they take it.

                      (3)

                      - From: Peter J Reilly 1 year ago
                      -
                      - Thanks for the clarification.
                      -
                      - According to the 2010 Form 990
                      - available on guidestar.org Thomas
                      - Asbury, Men's Head Basketball Coach,
                      - had $267,140 of "reportable
                      - compensation" and $48,120 of
                      - "other compensation"...
                      -
                      - Can't tell for certain if there
                      - is a housing allowance...

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #5:

                      From: John.Wilson@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:47:21 -0700

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Robert:

                      It is not my responsibility to document the charge
                      you made to an international audience, but yours.

                      See Matt. 19:18.

                      Please give us the name of the "basketball minister"
                      at Pepperdine.

                      If you cannot do so, it would seem that decency would
                      call for a retraction of your charge; a charge you
                      clearly made in the interview you suggested we all
                      listen to.

                      To say you "don't recall" what you said in that
                      interview is very strange, to say the least.

                      --John

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #6:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:53:17 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      John,

                      You are the one who thought to be cute and call into
                      question something you claim I said that you claim
                      was inappropriate.

                      If you wish to quote me, give what I said and where
                      on the "tape" I said it, I will be glad to check it
                      out and reply.

                      If any Pepperdine official or "basketball minister/coach"
                      wants to challenge me on what I said, they are more than
                      welcome to do so.

                      I'm game for such games.

                      Let's play.

                      The ball is your/Pepperdine's court, John.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #7:

                      From: John.Wilson@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 19:12:39 -0700

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      I think enough has already been said to establish what
                      has happened here.

                      Listers will be able to judge that for themselves.

                      --John

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #8:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:18:52 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      John,

                      Indeed, readers can decide for themselves.

                      For myself, I judge that you cannot so easily escape
                      the predicament you have created for yourself and
                      Pepperdine and its coaches.

                      Get them to come out, come clean and deal openly and
                      honestly with your charges against me, or not.

                      You, John, have made some serious charges against me
                      and that in an international forum.

                      Are you now going to play the hypocrite and run off?

                      I would have preferred a different result, but such a
                      result is not unlike other circumstances I have found
                      myself in when challenged regarding such simple matters.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #9:

                      From: tom-olbricht@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:30:24 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      In deference to Robert Baty's sensibilities I
                      have not taken a ministerial housing allowance
                      on my income tax for the last three years.

                      I have paid a bit more tax, but not a whole lot.

                      Robert Baty declares,

                      > "Come on Olbricht, you have not desisted
                      > taking the allowance became of my sensibilities!"

                      To which I reply, employing the Robert Baty debate
                      ploy,

                      > "All right, prove that I have not taken the
                      > allowance because of Robert Baty's sensibilities."

                      Tom Olbricht

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #10:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Tom,

                      That was quite below your ranking as a senior member
                      of this august group of scholars and Pepperdine apologists.

                      John doesn't need you trying to cover for him with such
                      antics that are deceptive and misrepresent the issues
                      and the seriousness of John's unresolved charges against
                      me.

                      You would have done better to have just let him run off.

                      John wrote, in part:

                      > It is not my responsibility to document
                      > the charge you made to an international
                      > audience, but yours.

                      > If you cannot do so, it would seem
                      > that decency would call for a retraction
                      > of your charge-a charge you clearly made
                      > in the interview you suggested we all listen
                      > to.

                      What did I say that ticked John off?

                      He didn't say?

                      I did go back and listen to what I had to say, and I
                      found no reason to retract anything I said about
                      Pepperdine employees' exploitation of IRC 107 and
                      Revenue Ruling 70-549.

                      Maybe I missed something; maybe not.

                      Will John Wilson dare to demonstrate he is man enough
                      to do what he presumed to claim was something I was
                      in need of doing?

                      Will John's peers be able to use their moral influence
                      on him to do what he presumed to demand of me; or will
                      they continue to cover for his retreat?

                      It's become quite a cliche to say the cover up is worse
                      than the crime, but it does appear to be the case here
                      with what appears to be John's blunder in presuming to
                      challenge me on some simple matters regarding the
                      exploitation of IRC 107 and Revenue Ruling 70-549 by
                      Pepperdine employees (as representative examples of a
                      problem our current tax laws and their administration).

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #11:

                      From: gecooper2@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 00:11:50 -0500

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Robert,

                      John and Tom can of course speak for themselves--and
                      they never have nor will they ever beat their wives.

                      But I for one see your response to them as an old
                      debater's trick called "poisoning the well."

                      You haven't given a shred of proof regarding your
                      allegation that a current PU basketball coach is
                      doing what is out of bounds.

                      Only speculation.

                      You have a simple solution to that: report your
                      unnamed coach to the IRS, present your case against
                      said coach, and let the IRS do its work.

                      Of course, you cannot report a "symbolic" coach,
                      now can you.

                      George Cooper

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #12:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 01:28:34 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      George,

                      You fare no better than those that have gone before you.

                      If you wish to discuss any problems you have with what
                      I said last night in the interview, quote me and give
                      the time of the quote so I can check what might have
                      you so ticked off.

                      Or are you going to be guilty as others of playing the
                      hypocrite for me.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #13:

                      From: keithprice@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 08:08:21 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Listers,

                      I am not the least interested in this line
                      of discussion.

                      Especially, since it doesn’t fall in the
                      guidelines of the list.

                      Bob get off this hobby and listers stop
                      encouraging him with responses.

                      Sincerely,
                      Keith Price

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #14:

                      From: gecooper2@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 07:51:57 -0500

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Mea culpa, Keith, mea culpa.

                      I don't see as well as I did when I
                      was younger and occasionally mistake
                      a molehill I should avoid for a
                      mountain worthy of scaling.

                      Blessings on this Lord's Day,

                      George Cooper

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #15:

                      From: randolph@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 12:55:56 +0000

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      I prefer to let you all self-manage;
                      Keith is correct.

                      Robert has made his point and we know
                      from experience that engaging in
                      conversation with him is not productive.

                      Let's drop it.

                      Robert M. Randolph
                      Chaplain to the Institute
                      Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                      W-11 128
                      617-258-xxxx

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #16:

                      From: tom-olbricht@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:06:33 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Robert,

                      You win every argument because you always are
                      in denial about any observation that nails you
                      to the wall.

                      You come up with a neat ad hominen or a shaming.
                      You are the one who should be ashamed.

                      Here I thought you would be ecstatic over my no
                      longer taking the ministerial housing allowance.

                      What is it with you?

                      You apparently are committed to "Damned if you
                      do, but still damned if you don't!"

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #17:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:25:09 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Tom,

                      I may win every argument (I certainly did this
                      time around), but not for the reason you suggest.

                      Ad hominem has again shown itself here, as applied
                      to my misguided adversaries, to have a quite appropriate
                      and non-fallacious use.

                      Your cute attempt to cover for John Wilson was really
                      quite beneath you; perhaps a sign of your aging.

                      If you and yours are ever able to find something in what
                      I said about Pepperdine in that interview that you think
                      is worthy of your time and effort, please come up with
                      the quote and the time mark for me to check out. I may
                      have somewhat to say on the matter depending on what your
                      problem might be.

                      Knowing how you scholars give such tedious attention to
                      details and documentation, your hypocrisy becomes all
                      the more evident in your latest demonstrations here.

                      Deal with it appropriately,
                      or not.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #18:

                      From: michaelstrickland92@...
                      To: stone-campbell@...
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:39:16 -0500

                      Subject: Re: Pepperdine and LGBT

                      Listers,

                      Being new to the list, I am not exactly sure
                      how the protocol works, but I suggest a moratorium
                      on any "minesterial allowance" related topics and
                      temporary removal of offenders from the list.

                      Admins know whether my suggestion is kosher.

                      My 2 cents.

                      Sincerely,
                      Michael

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #19:

                      From: randolph@...
                      To: rlbaty@... (off-list, private message)
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:04:40 +0000

                      Subject: Stone-Campbell

                      Robert,

                      I have dropped you from the list.

                      If you want to rejoin i need to know that you
                      are willing to converse with civility.

                      It is one thing to differ, another to suggest
                      an opinion is due to advanced age.

                      You ought to know better.

                      What you offer the list is one topic and one
                      topic only; we hear you, understand what you
                      are interested in and what we get in return
                      is your one issue.

                      I expect better if you want to participate
                      in the list ongoing.

                      Robert M. Randolph
                      Chaplain to the Institute
                      Massachusetts Institute of Technology
                      W-11 128
                      617-258-xxxx

                      ------------

                      MESSAGE #20:

                      From: rlbaty@...
                      To: randolph@... (off-list, private message)
                      Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:10:27 -0400

                      Subject: Re: Stone-Campbell

                      Robert,

                      Thanks for the notification.

                      If anyone there actually comes up with something
                      I said, that they can quote and cite, that troubles
                      them, I will be glad to consider their complaints.

                      Otherwise, the coverup is noted.

                      I let list managers do what they will.

                      Y'all know how to contact me if you want to be
                      civil, open, and honest about that matter Paul
                      Wilson brought up and then ran off from with lots
                      of cover from the "good ol' boys".

                      I hoped for better this time around regarding the
                      important, public issues being discussed; but I
                      can't say what has taken place was unexpected.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      ------------
                      ------------
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