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Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!

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  • Charles Weston
    ....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief. Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 1, 2013
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      "....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief."

      Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a literal biblical interpretation.  That's one reason I get all sarcastic and "het up" when I see some church hiring someone like Brad Harrub to give a seminar.

      That and a few other things that we just don't get in the CoC brotherhood, which I could go into sometime if you are interested.

      Charles W.

      ----------------------------------------------

    • Ray Ausban
      Hmmm... Charles, you live in the Bible belt, so I guess that could be true there but here, the ones who fall away mostly follow after wordly reasons: worldly
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 2, 2013
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        Hmmm... Charles, you live in the Bible belt, so I guess that could be true there but here, the ones who fall away mostly follow after 'wordly' reasons: worldly trends, sports, sex, drugs, and rebellion against parents to show 'I am my own person' type attitude. Nearly all women have no interest in the 'science' of the literal Bible and only a small percentage of men are interested in the topic. So, like I said, maybe it's different there but here...
        So, you don't like YEC being taught in the C of C and a few other things, such as?
        From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
        To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
         
        "....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief."

        Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a literal biblical interpretation.  That's one reason I get all sarcastic and "het up" when I see some church hiring someone like Brad Harrub to give a seminar.

        That and a few other things that we just don't get in the CoC brotherhood, which I could go into sometime if you are interested.

        Charles W.

        ----------------------------------------------
      • Charles Weston
        Ray, A few other things such as prophecy in the midst of an otherwise literal passage, prophecies that aren t really prophecies (but could be parallels),
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2013
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          Ray,

          A few other things such as "prophecy" in the midst of an otherwise "literal" passage, prophecies that aren't really prophecies (but could be parallels), virgins that aren't virgins, and commands that aren't really commands.

          Charles W.

          --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

          From: Ray Ausban <rayausban@...>
          Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
          To: "Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com" <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 11:20 AM

           

          Hmmm... Charles, you live in the Bible belt, so I guess that could be true there but here, the ones who fall away mostly follow after 'wordly' reasons: worldly trends, sports, sex, drugs, and rebellion against parents to show 'I am my own person' type attitude. Nearly all women have no interest in the 'science' of the literal Bible and only a small percentage of men are interested in the topic. So, like I said, maybe it's different there but here...
          So, you don't like YEC being taught in the C of C and a few other things, such as?
          From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
          To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
           
          "....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief."

          Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a literal biblical interpretation.  That's one reason I get all sarcastic and "het up" when I see some church hiring someone like Brad Harrub to give a seminar.

          That and a few other things that we just don't get in the CoC brotherhood, which I could go into sometime if you are interested.

          Charles W.

          ----------------------------------------------
        • Ray Ausban
          Thanks Charles, but... I haven t attended the C of C but a few times in my life, so I don t really know what you are talking about. Commands that aren t
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 4, 2013
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            Thanks Charles, but... I haven't attended the C of C but a few times in my life, so I don't really know what you are talking about.
            "Commands that aren't really commands" - I think I can understand that one, as some one thinks the Bible says we are supposed to do this or that, when it might not really be commanding that.
             
            I have two books on loan from a friend, "Introducing the Church of Christ" by Star Bible Publications (1981) and "The Church of Christ" by Wharton (1987). (Those years were the first printing). Any mention of your other two items in these books, or can you clarify it for me?

            From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 7:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
             
            Ray,

            A few other things such as "prophecy" in the midst of an otherwise "literal" passage, prophecies that aren't really prophecies (but could be parallels), virgins that aren't virgins, and commands that aren't really commands.

            Charles W.

            --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

            From: Ray Ausban <rayausban@...>
            Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
            To: "Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com" <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 11:20 AM

             
            Hmmm... Charles, you live in the Bible belt, so I guess that could be true there but here, the ones who fall away mostly follow after 'wordly' reasons: worldly trends, sports, sex, drugs, and rebellion against parents to show 'I am my own person' type attitude. Nearly all women have no interest in the 'science' of the literal Bible and only a small percentage of men are interested in the topic. So, like I said, maybe it's different there but here...
            So, you don't like YEC being taught in the C of C and a few other things, such as?
            From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:11 PM
            Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
             
            "....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief."

            Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a literal biblical interpretation.  That's one reason I get all sarcastic and "het up" when I see some church hiring someone like Brad Harrub to give a seminar.

            That and a few other things that we just don't get in the CoC brotherhood, which I could go into sometime if you are interested.

            Charles W.

            ----------------------------------------------
          • Charles Weston
            Ray, In the CoC there is a lot of insistence that the Genesis creation story be taken literally, all except the part about the snake and the bruising
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 4, 2013
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              Ray,

              In the CoC there is a lot of insistence that the Genesis creation story be taken literally, all except the part about the snake and the bruising heel/crushing head.  Suddenly, we have a metaphorical reference to Jesus and Satan.  Or do we?  It really reads much more like a "just so" story explaining why people pretty much despise snakes, and why snakes are the only land animal with no legs.

              There's the oft-quoted passage from Isaiah that is supposed to be a prophecy of Jesus.  Isaiah says "opened not his mouth" and "by his stripes we are healed," but Jesus did a fair amount of talking during his trial and execution, and we are healed by his death, not by his scourging.

              Then God tells Jeremiah that somebody is going to conquer Egypt, but wait, a few verses later, Jeremiah tells us it didn't happen.

              Mary was actually a "young woman," not a virgin.  Does it somehow diminish Jesus' stature to admit he was the product of a teen pregnancy, maybe some heavy petting gone too far, or just simple ignorance on the part of his parents?

              Somehow an example of a church assembling to break bread on the first day of the week morphed into a command to have the Lord's Supper every Sunday and only Sunday.  In the prime example (Acts 20:7), they didn't actually break bread until the next day, due to the long-winded preaching of Paul and the necessity of healing the guy who fell asleep and fell down.  Nobody at that church, including Paul, had a problem with doing the Lord's Supper the next day (after midnight).  A pressing human need came first.

              I'd be surprised if Robert hasn't pondered some of these same points.

              Charles W.



              --- On Mon, 3/4/13, Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

              From: Ray Ausban <rayausban@...>
              Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
              To: "Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com" <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Monday, March 4, 2013, 4:02 PM

               

              Thanks Charles, but... I haven't attended the C of C but a few times in my life, so I don't really know what you are talking about.
              "Commands that aren't really commands" - I think I can understand that one, as some one thinks the Bible says we are supposed to do this or that, when it might not really be commanding that.
               
              I have two books on loan from a friend, "Introducing the Church of Christ" by Star Bible Publications (1981) and "The Church of Christ" by Wharton (1987). (Those years were the first printing). Any mention of your other two items in these books, or can you clarify it for me?

              From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 7:30 PM
              Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
               
              Ray,

              A few other things such as "prophecy" in the midst of an otherwise "literal" passage, prophecies that aren't really prophecies (but could be parallels), virgins that aren't virgins, and commands that aren't really commands.

              Charles W.

              --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

              From: Ray Ausban <rayausban@...>
              Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
              To: "Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com" <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 11:20 AM

               
              Hmmm... Charles, you live in the Bible belt, so I guess that could be true there but here, the ones who fall away mostly follow after 'wordly' reasons: worldly trends, sports, sex, drugs, and rebellion against parents to show 'I am my own person' type attitude. Nearly all women have no interest in the 'science' of the literal Bible and only a small percentage of men are interested in the topic. So, like I said, maybe it's different there but here...
              So, you don't like YEC being taught in the C of C and a few other things, such as?
              From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
               
              "....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief."

              Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a literal biblical interpretation.  That's one reason I get all sarcastic and "het up" when I see some church hiring someone like Brad Harrub to give a seminar.

              That and a few other things that we just don't get in the CoC brotherhood, which I could go into sometime if you are interested.

              Charles W.

              ----------------------------------------------
            • rlbaty50
              ... Probably fewer of them than you might think, and I ve gotten pretty rusty on the details and most folks might think I never was all that informed on the
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 4, 2013
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                --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                Charles Weston wrote, in part:

                > I'd be surprised if Robert hasn't pondered
                > some of these same points.

                Probably fewer of them than you might think, and I've gotten pretty rusty on the details and most folks might think I never was all that informed on the details.

                It takes some real digging to seriously consider the possibilities regarding the opposing claims regarding such issues.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
              • Ray Ausban
                Okay, Charles, thanks, I understand what you are talking about.   Do typical C of C members believe that God authorized, guided or inspired the Restoration
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 4, 2013
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                  Okay, Charles, thanks, I understand what you are talking about.
                   
                  Do typical C of C members believe that God authorized, guided or inspired the "Restoration Movement" which brought the C of C into existence? Robert, Todd or others familiar with C of C, can weigh in too.
                   
                  This is something I have always been curious about.

                  From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
                  To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 2:59 PM
                  Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
                   
                  Ray,

                  In the CoC there is a lot of insistence that the Genesis creation story be taken literally, all except the part about the snake and the bruising heel/crushing head.  Suddenly, we have a metaphorical reference to Jesus and Satan.  Or do we?  It really reads much more like a "just so" story explaining why people pretty much despise snakes, and why snakes are the only land animal with no legs.

                  There's the oft-quoted passage from Isaiah that is supposed to be a prophecy of Jesus.  Isaiah says "opened not his mouth" and "by his stripes we are healed," but Jesus did a fair amount of talking during his trial and execution, and we are healed by his death, not by his scourging.

                  Then God tells Jeremiah that somebody is going to conquer Egypt, but wait, a few verses later, Jeremiah tells us it didn't happen.

                  Mary was actually a "young woman," not a virgin.  Does it somehow diminish Jesus' stature to admit he was the product of a teen pregnancy, maybe some heavy petting gone too far, or just simple ignorance on the part of his parents?

                  Somehow an example of a church assembling to break bread on the first day of the week morphed into a command to have the Lord's Supper every Sunday and only Sunday.  In the prime example (Acts 20:7), they didn't actually break bread until the next day, due to the long-winded preaching of Paul and the necessity of healing the guy who fell asleep and fell down.  Nobody at that church, including Paul, had a problem with doing the Lord's Supper the next day (after midnight).  A pressing human need came first.

                  I'd be surprised if Robert hasn't pondered some of these same points.

                  Charles W.



                  --- On Mon, 3/4/13, Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

                  From: Ray Ausban <rayausban@...>
                  Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
                  To: "Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com" <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Monday, March 4, 2013, 4:02 PM

                   
                  Thanks Charles, but... I haven't attended the C of C but a few times in my life, so I don't really know what you are talking about.
                  "Commands that aren't really commands" - I think I can understand that one, as some one thinks the Bible says we are supposed to do this or that, when it might not really be commanding that.
                   
                  I have two books on loan from a friend, "Introducing the Church of Christ" by Star Bible Publications (1981) and "The Church of Christ" by Wharton (1987). (Those years were the first printing). Any mention of your other two items in these books, or can you clarify it for me?
                  From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
                  To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 7:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
                   
                  Ray,

                  A few other things such as "prophecy" in the midst of an otherwise "literal" passage, prophecies that aren't really prophecies (but could be parallels), virgins that aren't virgins, and commands that aren't really commands.

                  Charles W.

                  --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

                  From: Ray Ausban <rayausban@...>
                  Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
                  To: "Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com" <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 11:20 AM

                   
                  Hmmm... Charles, you live in the Bible belt, so I guess that could be true there but here, the ones who fall away mostly follow after 'wordly' reasons: worldly trends, sports, sex, drugs, and rebellion against parents to show 'I am my own person' type attitude. Nearly all women have no interest in the 'science' of the literal Bible and only a small percentage of men are interested in the topic. So, like I said, maybe it's different there but here...
                  So, you don't like YEC being taught in the C of C and a few other things, such as?
                  From: Charles Weston <sanantonioriverman@...>
                  To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:11 PM
                  Subject: Re: [M & B] Re: Patrick van Baal & the Atheism 101 Critical Thinking Exercise!
                   
                  "....the number of youth who grow up in religious families yet they fall away from belief."

                  Ray, youth fall away in large part due to the insistence on a literal biblical interpretation.  That's one reason I get all sarcastic and "het up" when I see some church hiring someone like Brad Harrub to give a seminar.

                  That and a few other things that we just don't get in the CoC brotherhood, which I could go into sometime if you are interested.

                  Charles W.

                  ----------------------------------------------
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