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Re: Reformation Rumblings, November 26, 2003

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  • Todd S. Greene
    Hi, everyone. In post #2920 Nelta Brock wrote, if you stalk Buff you will have to go back on. Translation: I am covering up for Buff s lying. So if you
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 27, 2003
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      Hi, everyone.

      In post #2920 Nelta Brock wrote, "if you 'stalk' Buff you will have
      to go back on."

      Translation: "I am covering up for Buff's lying. So if you point out
      where Buff has purposely continued to lie to everyone I'm going to
      silence you where I have the power to do so."

      Regards,
      Todd Greene
    • Nelta Brock
      I m out of here. Why should anyone stick around when there is constant criticism and a tearing down of said person. Back to my own lists where people don t
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 27, 2003
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        I'm out of here. Why should anyone stick around when there is
        constant criticism and a tearing down of said person. Back to my own
        lists where people don't get by with doing that. I seek safer ground.

        Nelta


        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Todd S. Greene"
        <greeneto@y...> wrote:
        > Hi, everyone.
        >
        > In post #2920 Nelta Brock wrote, "if you 'stalk' Buff you will have
        > to go back on."
        >
        > Translation: "I am covering up for Buff's lying. So if you point out
        > where Buff has purposely continued to lie to everyone I'm going to
        > silence you where I have the power to do so."
        >
        > Regards,
        > Todd Greene
      • mathewmaury
        ... Hurrah for Nelta! It is understandable for Nelta to put up with a trouble-making atheist on her discussion list for awhile. But it is too much to ask her
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 27, 2003
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          --- Todd wrote to Nelta:
          > You caved in to naked prejudice. And the fact is, I've
          > been a member of your group for a long time.

          Hurrah for Nelta! It is understandable for Nelta to put up
          with a trouble-making atheist on her discussion list for
          awhile. But it is too much to ask her to continue to do so
          once she finds out the atheist is also naked! And now she
          has followed many former members of this list who are 'outta
          here'. Who can blame her?

          This list has existed almost one year. This list has lost
          several members in the past week. Why have the others left?
          Why do so few post? Will fresh meat throw themselves to the
          lions to help this list survive?
        • Todd S. Greene
          ... Hi, Mat. Your representation of telling the truth as trouble-making is noted. The fact remains that I was booted from Nelta s list for telling the truth.
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 27, 2003
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            --- In Maury_and_Baty, "Mathew Maury" wrote (post #2927):
            > --- Todd wrote to Nelta:
            >> You caved in to naked prejudice. And the fact is, I've
            >> been a member of your group for a long time.
            >
            > Hurrah for Nelta! It is understandable for Nelta to put up
            > with a trouble-making atheist on her discussion list for
            > awhile. But it is too much to ask her to continue to do so
            > once she finds out the atheist is also naked! And now she
            > has followed many former members of this list who are 'outta
            > here'. Who can blame her?

            Hi, Mat.

            Your representation of telling the truth as "trouble-making" is noted.

            The fact remains that I was booted from Nelta's list for telling the
            truth. A number of people didn't like the fact that it happened to be
            an atheist who was telling the truth (this is the naked prejudice),
            in criticism of a Church Of Christ member who got caught lying. Some
            people can't handle the truth. So what else is new?

            Incidentally, I'd guess that at least 200 people have left my
            own "creationism" discussion group over the last 4 years. (And no one
            is *ever* banned from that group.) So what?

            What I can't get over is the fact the no one - not one single person -
            disputes *the fact* that Buff is lying about the National Geographic
            article on his website, yet I'm the "trouble-making atheist" for
            pointing out the truth that (1) Buff is misrepresenting the quote,
            and (2) now that Buff has been made explicitly aware of the fact that
            he has misrepresented the quote, he has *purposely chosen to
            continue* to misrepresent it which is how we know he is now lying.
            People can cry and moan about "trouble-making atheists" all they want
            and it isn't going to change the truth one little bit.

            Incidentally, I completely "stumbled" into the Peter Frenzen thing.
            (Indeed, while I was aware that someone was being quoted in Rowe
            Findley's article, I wasn't even aware of the name of the guy.) I had
            no idea ahead of time that Buff had a quote from some guy about Mt.
            St. Helens on his website, nor did I know that Peter Frenzen had
            already written to Buff previously telling him that Buff had taken
            his words out of context. This particular item was simply something I
            happened to notice in Buff's Grand Canyon article when I took a look
            at that web page when I was discussing the errors in the claims that
            Buff had made about the Colorado River and the Grand Canyon in one of
            his "Reformation Rumblings" posts several weeks ago. As I have
            already stated a number of times, the quote misrepresentation is a
            *trivial* error. All Buff needed (and needs) to do to fix this
            *trivial* mistake is to stop misrepresenting the quote. This is an
            *extremely simple* matter. The fact that the man cannot even bring
            himself to fix what is a trivial error is demonstrative of his
            obstinacy-in-error attitude regarding young earth creationism. Which
            is typical.

            Regards,
            Todd Greene
          • rlbaty50
            ... I guess I can! Nelta has done such things over and over again on a variety of lists. She comes and she goes and many times based on the same alleged
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 27, 2003
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              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "mathewmaury"
              <sqi7o0hh02@s...> wrote, in part:

              > And now she (Nelta) has followed many former
              > members of this list who are 'outta here'.

              > Who can blame her?


              I guess I can!

              Nelta has done such things over and over again on a variety of
              lists. She comes and she goes and many times based on the same
              alleged feelings she expressed here. I have typically just watched
              that show as Nelta really mixes it up with others concerning her own
              hobbies.

              In the case of my list, I think it a rather childish tactic to use
              when one decides to give up their membership here. Like, it isn't
              like they are losing their ability to post here or to view the
              discussions here. Anyone can post, and the archives are public (for
              as long as YAHOO! allows the list to remain).

              I would that all members and former members were as Todd
              and "mathewmaury" when it comes to handling lists.

              Of course, I would have had it that Nelta would have seriously
              considered the Buff Scott, Jr. problem, on her GospelAdvocting list,
              with that quote and exercised herself in at least noting the problem
              for the record and requesting that Buff provide a legitimate response
              concerning the Peter Frenzen issue currently under consideration.

              I would hope Nelta wouldn't further wax childish about all of that
              and make a big fuss about me "stealing" Buff's post and addressing it
              here. After all, we are dealing with important public issues
              involving public figures (Buff, the alleged reformer) and a fellow
              civil servant like myself (Peter Frenzen).

              We will see about that!

              If anyone knows anywhere else Buff frequents that is public and where
              he is likely to seriously and responsibly address his Peter Frenzen
              problem, I would hope you would let us know. Right now, it looks
              like he's in retreat to those secret places where others will cover
              for him.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
            • rlbaty50
              ... Me too! Of course, I stumbled into it because Todd was making such a big deal out of it. He seemed to be so sure that Buff had misrepresented Peter
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 27, 2003
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                --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Todd S. Greene"
                <greeneto@y...> wrote, in part:
                >
                > Incidentally, I (Todd S. Greene) completely "stumbled"
                > into the Peter Frenzen thing.

                Me too! Of course, I stumbled into it because Todd was making such a
                big deal out of it.

                He seemed to be so sure that Buff had misrepresented Peter Frenzen,
                and I couldn't figure out just how he might have come up with that.

                Then, it turned out to be so easy to walk up the street and find a
                librarian that could just copy the text-only article off their
                computer (the hard copy edition being off in storage somewhere).

                Then I noticed that the alleged quote was apparently just a partial
                caption of a picture of Loowit Falls, involving a NOT hardrock canyon.

                Then, after reading and rereading the quote so many times, it just so
                happens that I noticed that Buff appears to have added a word to the
                alleged quote as represented on his website; the word "one"
                after "this" which was referring to the NOT hardrock Loowit Falls
                canyon.

                I guess I'm just gonna have to take all the credit for that that I
                can; the good brethren don't seem any more appreciative of my
                improving the quality of their materials on such things as that than
                they have been over the Maury stuff.

                Then it was the case that Todd, who was considering the issue, had
                failed to appreciate Buff's claims about his secret communications
                with Peter Frenzen. I guess I get to take the credit for pointing
                out that "detail" to Todd. It seems to me Buff's secret
                correspondence is really quite a big issue when it comes to the
                history of this "one" detail and Buff's use of the alleged quote with
                or without the "one" in it.

                No, Nelta, this in no way constitutes a "stalking" of Buff, the
                alleged reformer.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
              • rlbaty50
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 28, 2003
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                  --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Todd S. Greene"
                  <greeneto@y...> might as well have written:
                  >
                  > The representation of seeking the truth as "trouble-making"
                  > is noted.
                  >
                  > The fact remains that Robert Baty was booted from Nelta's
                  > list for seeking the truth. A number of people didn't like
                  > the fact that it happened to be a Christian who was seeking
                  > the truth (this is the naked prejudice), in criticism of a
                  > "Church Of Christ member" who got caught in error. Some
                  > people can't handle the truth. So what else is new?
                  >
                  > What I can't get over is the fact the no one - not one
                  > single person - disputes *the fact* that Buff is in error
                  > about the National Geographic article on his website, yet
                  > Robert Baty is the "trouble-making Christian" for pointing
                  > out the truth that (1) Buff is misrepresenting the quote,
                  > and (2) now that Buff has been made explicitly aware of
                  > the fact that he has misrepresented the quote, he has
                  > *purposely chosen to continue* to misrepresent it which
                  > is how we know he is in error.

                  > People can cry and moan about "trouble-making Christians"
                  > all they want and it isn't going to change the truth one
                  > little bit.
                  >
                  > As I have already stated a number of times, the quote
                  > misrepresentation is a *trivial* error.

                  > All Buff needed (and needs) to do to fix this *trivial*
                  > mistake is to stop misrepresenting the quote. This is an
                  > *extremely simple* matter.

                  > The fact that the man cannot even bring himself to fix
                  > what is a trivial error is demonstrative of his
                  > obstinacy-in-error attitude regarding young earth
                  > creationism.

                  > Which is typical.
                  >
                • Nelta Brock
                  Your being booted had nothing to do with Buff. It had to do with your gross critism of me. Don t expect to stay on my list when you ridicule me on yours.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 28, 2003
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                    Your being booted had nothing to do with Buff. It had to do with your
                    gross critism of me. Don't expect to stay on my list when you
                    ridicule me on yours.



                    --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@w...> wrote:
                    > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Todd S. Greene"
                    > <greeneto@y...> might as well have written:
                    > >
                    > > The representation of seeking the truth as "trouble-making"
                    > > is noted.
                    > >
                    > > The fact remains that Robert Baty was booted from Nelta's
                    > > list for seeking the truth. A number of people didn't like
                    > > the fact that it happened to be a Christian who was seeking
                    > > the truth (this is the naked prejudice), in criticism of a
                    > > "Church Of Christ member" who got caught in error. Some
                    > > people can't handle the truth. So what else is new?
                    > >
                    > > What I can't get over is the fact the no one - not one
                    > > single person - disputes *the fact* that Buff is in error
                    > > about the National Geographic article on his website, yet
                    > > Robert Baty is the "trouble-making Christian" for pointing
                    > > out the truth that (1) Buff is misrepresenting the quote,
                    > > and (2) now that Buff has been made explicitly aware of
                    > > the fact that he has misrepresented the quote, he has
                    > > *purposely chosen to continue* to misrepresent it which
                    > > is how we know he is in error.
                    >
                    > > People can cry and moan about "trouble-making Christians"
                    > > all they want and it isn't going to change the truth one
                    > > little bit.
                    > >
                    > > As I have already stated a number of times, the quote
                    > > misrepresentation is a *trivial* error.
                    >
                    > > All Buff needed (and needs) to do to fix this *trivial*
                    > > mistake is to stop misrepresenting the quote. This is an
                    > > *extremely simple* matter.
                    >
                    > > The fact that the man cannot even bring himself to fix
                    > > what is a trivial error is demonstrative of his
                    > > obstinacy-in-error attitude regarding young earth
                    > > creationism.
                    >
                    > > Which is typical.
                    > >
                  • rlbaty50
                    ... I might have missed it, but I failed to see any specific comments I may have made which Nelta claims were gross criticisms of her. As I recall, I was
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 28, 2003
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                      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Nelta Brock" <nib@h...> wrote
                      to me:

                      > Your being booted had nothing to do with Buff.
                      > It had to do with your gross critism of me.
                      > Don't expect to stay on my list when you
                      > ridicule me on yours.

                      I might have missed it, but I failed to see any specific comments I
                      may have made which Nelta claims were "gross criticisms" of her. As
                      I recall, I was merely stating certain historical facts regarding her
                      well-known list behaviorial traits.

                      She seems to add all the more validation to Todd's observations
                      concerning such behavior.

                      Last I was able to check, there was no similar concern expressed
                      regarding Buff or his actual "gross criticisms" of me while he evaded
                      his own James 3:1 public responsibilities in these matters.

                      Nelta may have some plausible deniability, but she's already hurt her
                      credibility and so there just may be some that don't put much stock
                      in her claim that it has "nothing to do with Buff".

                      Opinions on such things are such as they may be.

                      Nice cover for Buff as he continues to run from his responsibilities.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty
                    • rlbaty50
                      ... I think it was the following message that Nelta was attempting to use ... Does anyone else that has observed Nelta s behavior on numerous other lists have
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 28, 2003
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                        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@w...>
                        wrote, in part:
                        >
                        > I was merely stating certain historical facts regarding her
                        > (Nelta's) well-known list behaviorial traits.
                        >
                        I think it was the following message that Nelta was attempting to use
                        to justify her comments and recent behavior:

                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/2931

                        Does anyone else that has observed Nelta's behavior on numerous other
                        lists have any comments about her present state of affairs?

                        I'm just curious about the opinions of knowledgeable others
                        concerning such things.

                        Sincerely,
                        Robert Baty
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