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My venture into the Mormon "lion's den"; with my poll!

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  • rlbaty50
    Todd s recent message had the following link to a discussion of Mormons who leave their church:
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 1, 2012
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      Todd's recent message had the following link to a discussion of Mormons who leave their church:

      http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-06-17/mormon-lds-ex-mormon/55654242/1

      Following is an excerpt from one of the readers' comments:

      > From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon)
      > Date: June 18, 2012
      >
      > Where did you get your info about...
      > How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
      > And the...
      > You talk about the Lion's mouth.
      >
      > You might want to try
      >
      > http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
      >
      > Now these are the mouth of the lion.
      >
      > They actually offer answers not just...
      >
      > I as a member of the LDS church invite all
      > to investigate, research, study, ponder and
      > pray.
      >
      > I challenge you to overcome your personal
      > prejudice...
      >
      > By all means be civil and respectful no
      > matter what your answer is.

      And so I did, venture in to the Mormon "lion's den" tonight!

      And I presented my poll for consideration.

      More about all of that later.

      Here's a link to that thread:

      http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty
    • rlbaty50
      I just noticed that my introductory thread in the lion s den of Mormonism has just been locked down; without notice. That s fine; provides some release and
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 1, 2012
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        I just noticed that my introductory thread in "the lion's den" of Mormonism has just been locked down; without notice.

        That's fine; provides some release and time to document those important, public developments for preservation here.

        I will do so in some following messages. There's about 50 messages and so I'll try to break them up and post them in sequence in more than one message; as I get time.

        Stay tuned!

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
        "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:

        Todd's recent message had the following link to a discussion of Mormons who
        leave their church:

        http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-06-17/mormon-lds-ex-mormon\
        /55654242/1

        Following is an excerpt from one of the readers' comments:

        > From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon)
        > Date: June 18, 2012
        >
        > Where did you get your info about...
        > How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
        > And the...
        > You talk about the Lion's mouth.
        >
        > You might want to try
        >
        > http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
        >
        > Now these are the mouth of the lion.
        >
        > They actually offer answers not just...
        >
        > I as a member of the LDS church invite all
        > to investigate, research, study, ponder and
        > pray.
        >
        > I challenge you to overcome your personal
        > prejudice...
        >
        > By all means be civil and respectful no
        > matter what your answer is.

        And so I did, venture in to the Mormon "lion's den" tonight!

        And I presented my poll for consideration.

        More about all of that later.

        Here's a link to that thread:

        http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty
      • rlbaty50
        From the Mormon lion s den (all posted the evening of July 1, 2012): http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/ (1) From: RLBaty I am new to
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 1, 2012
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          From the Mormon "lion's den" (all posted the evening of July 1, 2012):

          http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

          (1)

          From: RLBaty

          I am new to this venue.

          I just ran across a reference from a Mormon readers' comment from a recent news article. I think he said something about his being the "lion's mouth".

          I have in recent days been engaged in an effort to discuss certain matters with Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

          I also have my own YAHOO! discussion group which I think is preferable.

          I'm currently most interested in getting more bonafide Mormons to participate in a poll regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims I found on an "official" Mormon website.

          So far only 5 have participated.

          Folks are welcome to requite my love and make their appearance in my YAHOO! group.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          (2)

          From: calmoriah

          What is the purpose of the poll?

          (3)

          From: RLBaty


          calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

          > What is the purpose of the poll?

          There are a variety of utilitarian purposes that the poll might serve.

          To each his own.

          For myself, the poll developed as a result of observations and experience with Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

          Would you, whoever you are, be willing to complete the poll, for the public record, by providing your simple "yes" or "no", indicating whether or not you believe the claims to be true, responses to the 5 simple, factual, historical claims taken from an "official" Mormon website?

          I notice that you, whoever you are, have over 25,000 posts here.

          Do you ever identify yourself?

          The reason I ask is because one of the Senior Mormon apologists who has appeared on The Christian Post from time to time has indicated that one may not be open and honest in his/her dealings if he/she is "hiding" behind anonymity.

          I think it is a good principle to work from.

          Dealing with anonymous sorts can be problematic.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          (4)

          From: calmoriah

          I choose to be anonymous because my daughter who has severe anxiety has asked me to as she has heard of horror stories of what happens at times when internet stalkers track down their targets.

          Besides which since I am only known by my online name online, very, very few (and only those who knew me first as "Cal") online would recognize my real name. I would be more "anonymous" if I used my birth/married name than if I use the name by which I am known by the online community....which name is as real to me and my friends online as my offline name (which is most often just a nickname too after all and not the one on official documents or medical charts) is to me and my friends offline. In fact, I can always tell who doesn't know me by their use of my full name, lol.

          And knowing my real name certainly wouldn't add any credibility to my claims, :).

          As to the poll, I make it a habit not to participate generally and if I do, I want to know precisely what the information is going to be used for....unless it is done by academics for academic research purposes and then out of appreciation for those who participated when I did my research for university eons ago, I do participate for them....but there is nothing academic I can see about your poll...sorry.

          I saw the poll if it is the one on plural marriage. Seems pretty worthless in terms of content, honestly.

          PS: lds.org is not an "official" Mormon website, it is the official website of the LDS Church.

          (5)

          From: RLBaty

          calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

          > I choose to be anonymous because...
          >
          > And knowing my real name certainly wouldn't
          > add any credibility to my claims, :).
          >
          > I saw the poll if it is the one on plural
          > marriage. Seems pretty worthless in terms
          > of content, honestly.
          >
          > PS: lds.org is not an "official" Mormon website,
          > it is the official website of the LDS Church.

          Thanks for that reply.

          I deal with anonymous correspondents on a case by case basis.

          Anonymity has advantages and disadvantages.

          It's not about a name, though a name is part of leveling the playing field depending upon the extent to which one might be interested in open, honest chat about matters of mutual interest.

          For instance, you complain about my poll seeming "pretty worthless".

          Nice play!

          We can deal with our differing opinions about the value of the poll after other matters are dealt with; if they ever are.

          You seem inclined to NOT participate in the poll or a discussion of its relevance to important, public, historical issues.

          I'll try to make that LDS/Mormon distinction on the "officiality" of the site.

          (6)

          From: calmoriah

          Having now read some of your interchanges with posters at the yahoo group, I am not interested in either poll for any reason or in particular continuing a conversation with you as too much personal stuff going on. If you do decide to stick around here, this may change depending on if your content is different here then there.

          (7)

          From: RLBaty

          calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

          > Having now read some of your interchanges with
          > posters at the yahoo group, I am not interested
          > in either poll for any reason or in particular
          > continuing a conversation with you as too much
          > personal stuff going on. If you do decide to
          > stick around here, this may change depending on
          > if your content is different here then there.

          Thanks for the notice, though I find it all too typical of those wanting to find a reason to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims taken from an "official" LDS Church website.

          As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages and you've demonstrated some of them in your antics over these simple matters.

          Maybe others will take part in the poll and other such matters in which we might share a mutual interest in discussing; maybe not.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty
          http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

          (8)

          From: calmoriah

          And thus my expectations are fulfilled.....

          (9)

          From: RLBaty
          calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

          > And thus my expectations are fulfilled.....

          Likewise, but I am hopeful that there might be some here unlike my first anonymous, evasive correspondent.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty
          http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

          (10)

          From: calmoriah

          How have I evaded anything? I gave you specific answers to what you've asked on this board.

          I am not "anonymous" in the sense that I am trying to avoid responsibility for what I've said or ever said anywhere on the internet. People can find all the relevant info they like about me simply by googling this name. If they googled my married or birth name, they wouldn't find out anything about me. That name is the one much more "anonymous" than this one.

          I turned down the opportunity to "requite [your] love" by responding to your poll that isn't even posted here (and you hadn't even linked to, btw). Not evading there. Came right out and said "no".

          add-on: did a bit more reading....it would seem the ultimate purpose of the poll is to see how many LDS agree with Mr. Baty if JS had sex with his wives or not.

          (11)

          From: RLBaty

          calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

          > How have I evaded anything?
          > I gave you specific answers to what
          > you've asked on this board.
          >
          > I turned down the opportunity to "requite
          > [your] love" by responding to your poll
          > that isn't even posted here (and you hadn't
          > even linked to, btw).
          >
          > Not evading there.
          > Came right out and said "no".
          >
          > add-on: it would seem the ultimate purpose
          > of the poll is to see how many LDS agree with
          > Mr. Baty if JS had sex with his wives or not.

          I made reference to my poll, and you indicated that you were familiar with the poll.

          You then evading providing simple answers of "yes" or "no" regarding what you, a Mormon, believe regarding those important, public, historical claims taken from an official LDS church website.

          The ultimate purpose of the poll, as far as I am concerned, is NOT as you allege, but we can discuss such things, if there is a mutual interest, at a more appropriate time. As I stated, there are a number of utilitarian purposes as to the poll, and my brief experience here is fulfilling one or more of them even while those here have been declining to participate. It doesn't have to be posted here for folks here to know exactly what the 5 claims are and answer "yes" and/or "no".

          If you think it would help to post the poll here, I would certainly oblige, or, since it is quite public, anyone else out there could post it here.

          I wasn't sure that it would be appropriate, but I'll post it if you wish; or you or anyone else can post it; or anything else for that matter.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty
          http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

          ------------------------------------------
          ------------------------------------------
        • rlbaty50
          http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/ (12) From: Pa Pa Few groups like simple yes or no answers... it leaves no room for dialog. (13)
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 1, 2012
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            http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

            (12)

            From: Pa Pa

            Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
            it leaves no room for dialog.

            (13)

            From: bluebell

            Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

            > Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
            > it leaves no room for dialog.

            And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

            (14)

            From: Pa Pa

            RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

            > Thanks for the notice, though I find it all
            > too typical of those wanting to find a reason
            > to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer
            > regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims
            > taken from an "official" LDS Church website.
            >
            > As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages
            > and you've demonstrated some of them in your
            > antics over these simple matters.
            >
            > Maybe others will take part in the poll and other
            > such matters in which we might share a mutual
            > interest in discussing; maybe not.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Robert Baty
            > http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

            "Antic"?

            She is one of the most fair minded people I have known on any site.

            6 posts and you are being quite demanding...reminds me of CARMella.

            (15)

            From: Pa Pa

            bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

            > And such questions can also be (not always
            > but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when
            > did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no
            > question.

            Great point.

            From: RLBaty

            Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

            > Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
            > it leaves no room for dialog.

            I am more than willing, even begging, for open,honest dialog with bonafide Mormons regarding these important public issues.

            I have seen those Mormons I have had direct contact with all over the Internet proposing that I should "ask a Mormon" about what they believe, use "official" LDS church websites and avoid anti-Mormon sites.

            And so I have, and so it has been interesting to watch the lengths to which my Mormon contacts have gone to evade simply first answering "yes" and/or "no" to what they believe about those official LDS church claims that have caught my attention.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
            http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

            From: RLBaty

            bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

            > And such questions can also be (not always but
            > it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you
            > stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

            Those question are NOT like asking if you have quit beating your wife.

            If you think so, maybe you should get the official LDS church to take down the claims from its website!

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
            http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

            From: RLBaty

            Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

            > "Antic"?

            > She is one of the most fair minded people
            > I have known on any site. 6 posts and you
            > are being quite demanding...reminds me of
            > CARMella.

            Not at all.

            I am NOT being demanding.

            I am giving bonafide Mormons a chance to simply answer "yes" and/or "no" regarding whether or not they believe certain, specific, important, historic claims on their official LDS church website.

            Among other things, it provides a platform upon which to pursue a discussion of important public issues where there may be mutual interest.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
            http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

            From: bluebell

            RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

            > Those question are NOT like asking if you
            > have quit beating your wife.
            >
            > If you think so, maybe you should get the
            > official LDS church to take down the claims
            > from its website!

            I never claimed they were.

            I haven't even read them and don't have plans to. I have no opinion on your poll, other than that i'm not interested in being a part of it. You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very quick with condemning people who respond in ways you don't like. No offense meant, but my life's got enough drama without going out and looking for it.

            I was simply commenting on some of the inherent problems that can exist when being forced to answer questions with only a yes or a no.

            From: cursor

            @RLBaty:

            Must one join your Yahoo group in order to even see the poll?

            From: RLBaty

            bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

            > I have no opinion on your poll, other than
            > that i'm not interested in being a part of it.
            >
            > You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very
            > quick with condemning people who respond in
            > ways you don't like.
            >
            > I was simply commenting on some of the inherent
            > problems that can exist when being forced to
            > answer questions with only a yes or a no.

            You are going down the wrong trail if you are trying to chat about problems with "yes" or "no" questions as if your misguided course had some relevance to my poll questions.

            That your course is premised on the proposition that you have no interest in my poll and aren't going to participate is rather disengenous.

            As to getting riled up, that's kinda funny in the broader context in which my interest has been pricked by Mormons who I have seen going throughout cyberspace whining about being maligned with bad reporting and the use of UNofficial references.

            I played their game and beat them at it.

            They (y'all) don't seem to like that and it shows already in this venue. Just one of those utilitarian aspects of my poll exercise.

            Now, of all the Mormons here, is there not any willing to tell me straight out whether "yes" or "no" regarding those 5 simple, important, public, historical claims taken from an official LDS Church website?

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
            http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

            From: RLBaty

            cursor, on 01 July 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

            > Must one join your Yahoo group in
            > order to even see the poll?

            Not at all.

            The list is publicly viewable.
            Its archives are searchable.

            And you can even post a note there without joining the list.

            Simply address and e-mail to: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            From: bluebell

            Good luck with the righteous indignation response.

            I've never seen people motivated to help those who use it yet, but today may be the first!

            Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very much glad to steer clear. :D

            From: rpn

            My answer is "yes" to 2-5.

            To 1 it is: more likely that Joseph Smith read the parts of the bible about polygamous marriages, and the counsel in the Book of Mormon condemning it and asked God about the apparent discrepancy, to which Heavenly Father revealed that he (Joseph Smith) was one called to do it --- therefore making it approved.

            So if you are asking whether Heavenly Father revealed it in a bolt of lightning out of the blue, I'm inclined to think not.

            But if you mean that God inspired Joseph both about the principal and His command to JS to live it, my answer would be "yes".

            (I think it will likely turn out that the polyandrous sealings that Joseph Smith participated in were misunderstandings of the law, one that required specific revelation in the 1880's to wilford woodruff to correct, that people were supposed to be sealed to spouses and parents and children, not to church leaders.)

            From: RLBaty

            bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

            > Good luck with the righteous indignation response.
            >
            > I've never seen people motivated to help those who
            > use it yet, but today may be the first!
            >
            > Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very
            > much glad to steer clear. :D

            I will note your efforts and, unless I am mistaken, your refusal to simply answer "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic, factual claims posted to the official LDS Church website.

            It is my opinion that the claims are so framed such that a Mormon, or anyone else, can answer "yes" and/or "no" to each claim and that Mormons in particular have a position regarding each (e.g., either "yes" and/or "no").

            As I have noted, one of the utilitarian purposes of the poll is to observe the lengths Mormons will go to in order to evade simply "giving an answer" on these matters; matters important enough to have been presented as part of the official LDS Church history.

            Thanks for the demonstration.

            Now, is there anyone else here that wishes to participate; maybe even "give an answer"?

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
            http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

            P.S. Speakin of all that righteous indignation stuff, have you noted Sergio's Mormon claims:

            > From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
            > Time/Date: 6:45 PM on February 10, 2012
            >
            > My authority came from God who
            > gave authority to Jesus,
            > to Peter,
            > to Joseph Smith,
            > and finally to me.
            >
            > This is called authority line.

            and this:

            > From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
            > Time/Date: 10:01 AM on February 17, 2012
            >
            > I win.
            > I have authority.
            > I have authority line, and
            > you have not.
          • rlbaty50
            I m still having trouble getting messages to post timely, so here s the second posting of messages 12-25 from my venture into the Mormon lion s den :
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 1, 2012
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              I'm still having trouble getting messages to post timely, so here's the second posting of messages 12-25 from my venture into the Mormon "lion's den":

              http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

              (12)

              From: Pa Pa

              Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
              it leaves no room for dialog.

              (13)

              From: bluebell

              Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

              > Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
              > it leaves no room for dialog.

              And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

              (14)

              From: Pa Pa

              RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

              > Thanks for the notice, though I find it all
              > too typical of those wanting to find a reason
              > to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer
              > regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims
              > taken from an "official" LDS Church website.
              >
              > As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages
              > and you've demonstrated some of them in your
              > antics over these simple matters.
              >
              > Maybe others will take part in the poll and other
              > such matters in which we might share a mutual
              > interest in discussing; maybe not.
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Robert Baty
              > http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

              "Antic"?

              She is one of the most fair minded people I have known on any site.

              6 posts and you are being quite demanding...reminds me of CARMella.

              (15)

              From: Pa Pa

              bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

              > And such questions can also be (not always
              > but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when
              > did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no
              > question.

              Great point.

              From: RLBaty

              Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

              > Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
              > it leaves no room for dialog.

              I am more than willing, even begging, for open,honest dialog with bonafide Mormons regarding these important public issues.

              I have seen those Mormons I have had direct contact with all over the Internet proposing that I should "ask a Mormon" about what they believe, use "official" LDS church websites and avoid anti-Mormon sites.

              And so I have, and so it has been interesting to watch the lengths to which my Mormon contacts have gone to evade simply first answering "yes" and/or "no" to what they believe about those official LDS church claims that have caught my attention.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
              http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

              From: RLBaty

              bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

              > And such questions can also be (not always but
              > it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you
              > stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

              Those question are NOT like asking if you have quit beating your wife.

              If you think so, maybe you should get the official LDS church to take down the claims from its website!

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
              http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

              From: RLBaty

              Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

              > "Antic"?

              > She is one of the most fair minded people
              > I have known on any site. 6 posts and you
              > are being quite demanding...reminds me of
              > CARMella.

              Not at all.

              I am NOT being demanding.

              I am giving bonafide Mormons a chance to simply answer "yes" and/or "no" regarding whether or not they believe certain, specific, important, historic claims on their official LDS church website.

              Among other things, it provides a platform upon which to pursue a discussion of important public issues where there may be mutual interest.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
              http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

              From: bluebell

              RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

              > Those question are NOT like asking if you
              > have quit beating your wife.
              >
              > If you think so, maybe you should get the
              > official LDS church to take down the claims
              > from its website!

              I never claimed they were.

              I haven't even read them and don't have plans to. I have no opinion on your poll, other than that i'm not interested in being a part of it. You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very quick with condemning people who respond in ways you don't like. No offense meant, but my life's got enough drama without going out and looking for it.

              I was simply commenting on some of the inherent problems that can exist when being forced to answer questions with only a yes or a no.

              From: cursor

              @RLBaty:

              Must one join your Yahoo group in order to even see the poll?

              From: RLBaty

              bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

              > I have no opinion on your poll, other than
              > that i'm not interested in being a part of it.
              >
              > You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very
              > quick with condemning people who respond in
              > ways you don't like.
              >
              > I was simply commenting on some of the inherent
              > problems that can exist when being forced to
              > answer questions with only a yes or a no.

              You are going down the wrong trail if you are trying to chat about problems with "yes" or "no" questions as if your misguided course had some relevance to my poll questions.

              That your course is premised on the proposition that you have no interest in my poll and aren't going to participate is rather disengenous.

              As to getting riled up, that's kinda funny in the broader context in which my interest has been pricked by Mormons who I have seen going throughout cyberspace whining about being maligned with bad reporting and the use of UNofficial references.

              I played their game and beat them at it.

              They (y'all) don't seem to like that and it shows already in this venue. Just one of those utilitarian aspects of my poll exercise.

              Now, of all the Mormons here, is there not any willing to tell me straight out whether "yes" or "no" regarding those 5 simple, important, public, historical claims taken from an official LDS Church website?

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
              http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

              From: RLBaty

              cursor, on 01 July 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

              > Must one join your Yahoo group in
              > order to even see the poll?

              Not at all.

              The list is publicly viewable.
              Its archives are searchable.

              And you can even post a note there without joining the list.

              Simply address and e-mail to: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              From: bluebell

              Good luck with the righteous indignation response.

              I've never seen people motivated to help those who use it yet, but today may be the first!

              Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very much glad to steer clear. :D

              From: rpn

              My answer is "yes" to 2-5.

              To 1 it is: more likely that Joseph Smith read the parts of the bible about polygamous marriages, and the counsel in the Book of Mormon condemning it and asked God about the apparent discrepancy, to which Heavenly Father revealed that he (Joseph Smith) was one called to do it --- therefore making it approved.

              So if you are asking whether Heavenly Father revealed it in a bolt of lightning out of the blue, I'm inclined to think not.

              But if you mean that God inspired Joseph both about the principal and His command to JS to live it, my answer would be "yes".

              (I think it will likely turn out that the polyandrous sealings that Joseph Smith participated in were misunderstandings of the law, one that required specific revelation in the 1880's to wilford woodruff to correct, that people were supposed to be sealed to spouses and parents and children, not to church leaders.)

              From: RLBaty

              bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

              > Good luck with the righteous indignation response.
              >
              > I've never seen people motivated to help those who
              > use it yet, but today may be the first!
              >
              > Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very
              > much glad to steer clear. :D

              I will note your efforts and, unless I am mistaken, your refusal to simply answer "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic, factual claims posted to the official LDS Church website.

              It is my opinion that the claims are so framed such that a Mormon, or anyone else, can answer "yes" and/or "no" to each claim and that Mormons in particular have a position regarding each (e.g., either "yes" and/or "no").

              As I have noted, one of the utilitarian purposes of the poll is to observe the lengths Mormons will go to in order to evade simply "giving an answer" on these matters; matters important enough to have been presented as part of the official LDS Church history.

              Thanks for the demonstration.

              Now, is there anyone else here that wishes to participate; maybe even "give an answer"?

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty
              http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

              P.S. Speakin of all that righteous indignation stuff, have you noted Sergio's Mormon claims:

              > From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
              > Time/Date: 6:45 PM on February 10, 2012
              >
              > My authority came from God who
              > gave authority to Jesus,
              > to Peter,
              > to Joseph Smith,
              > and finally to me.
              >
              > This is called authority line.

              and this:

              > From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
              > Time/Date: 10:01 AM on February 17, 2012
              >
              > I win.
              > I have authority.
              > I have authority line, and
              > you have not.
            • rlbaty50
              (This is the final batch, and hopefully they will post without the delay and duplication issues reflected in my earlier efforts to complete the posting of
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                (This is the final batch, and hopefully they will post without the delay and duplication issues reflected in my earlier efforts to complete the posting of these important messages.-RLBaty)

                http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

                (26)

                From: RLBaty

                Thanks for your participation.

                I'll put you down with the others as "yes" to all 5.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (27)

                From: volgadon

                In other words, the point of your poll is to gather any result on which you can place a negative spin.

                This gives you another means with which to beat Mormons over the head. If people thought you even somewhat sincerely interested in honest dialogue, then more would take your poll.

                (28)

                From: blackstrap

                how do you know that bonifide mormons are answering your poll?

                Must one swear an affadavit?

                (29)

                From: RLBaty

                volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

                > In other words, the point of your poll is to
                > gather any result which you can put a negative
                > spin on.
                >
                > This gives you something else with which to beat
                > Mormons over the head.
                >
                > If people thought you even somewhat sincerely
                > interested in honest dialogue, then more would
                > take your poll.

                You seem to present the presumptive view so often expressed by Mormons when trying to deal with their opposition.

                Thanks for the demonstration.

                There are many utilitarian purposes to the poll. As I noted earlier; to each his own!

                As far as I am concerned, your allegations are false.

                Why not try a little honest dialogue by first "giving an answer" to the 5 simple, factual, historic claims posted to the official LDS Church website and, if you have an honest interest in these matters, we can chat about it.

                You might also search the history of the poll and my interests therein to further educate yourself on things about which you apparently are quite UNinformed (uh oh, I'm starting to sound like a Mormon, aren't I).

                As far as answering the questions, my honesty or lack thereof, and my purposes, or lack thereof are quite irrelevant.

                Mormons either believe the claims their church makes, or they don't.

                They are either willing to tell, or they aren't.

                I think maybe some Mormons believe those claims and, for reasons already given elsewhere (check them out), some don't.

                Will the Mormons talk?

                That's part of what the exercise is all about.

                The Internet screams, "Ask a Mormon"!

                I am!

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (30)

                From: volgadon

                I see three outcomes to the poll, perhaps there are more.

                If most people answer in the positive,
                you can say look how many Mormons believe
                in such horrible behaviour!

                If most people answer in the negative,
                you can say look how many Mormons lie
                about their history!

                If most people decline to answer,
                you can say look how many Mormons evade
                the facts!

                In other words, it seems like you will twist whatever outcome to suit your agenda, so why should anyone be bothered to answer?

                (31)

                From: RLBaty

                blackstrap, on 01 July 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

                > How do you know that bonifide mormons are
                > answering your poll?
                >
                > Must one swear an affadavit?

                Except for the anonymous poster here, I think I have good reason to believe that the other 5 participants are bonafide Mormons.

                Their names are listed with the poll results on my list.

                It's more than just names; they have an Internet history.

                That's one of the down sides of anonymity, depending on your perspective.

                Anonymous participants' answers will not receive the same consideration as those known Mormons.

                That's life!

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (32)

                From: volgadon

                > They are either willing to tell,
                > or they aren't.

                We are either inclined to vote in a trolling poll,
                or we aren't.

                (33)

                From: RLBaty

                volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

                > I see three outcomes to the poll, perhaps
                > there are more.
                >
                > If most people answer in the positive,
                > you can say look how many Mormons believe
                > in such horrible behaviour!
                >
                > If most people answer in the negative,
                > you can say look how many Mormons lie
                > about their history!
                >
                > If most people decline to answer, you can
                > say look how many Mormons evade the facts!
                >
                > In other words, it seems like you will twist
                > whatever outcome to suit your agenda, so why
                > should anyone be bothered to answer?

                That's false, but it is the sort of thing that is become quite an obvious tactic of evasion from Mormon sources, in my experience.

                Would you like to give me your answer to the poll questions?

                Would you actually like to discuss the legitimate, utilitarian purposes of the poll?

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (34)

                From: volgadon

                > Would you actually like to discuss the legitimate,
                > utilitarian purposes of the poll?

                If there are any, do please share.

                (35)

                From: volgadon

                I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

                I did so this time as well, but then I went to your yahoo group.

                (36)

                From: RLBaty

                I read somewhere that:

                > The Purpose of Mormon Dialogue
                >
                > People of all faiths are welcome to engage
                > in gentlemanly discussion about topics
                > related to The Church of Jesus Christ of
                > Latter-day Saints.

                That's part of why I signed up after seeing a Mormon promoting the list on the Internet in response to a news article he was otherwise critical of. He indicated this was something like "the lion's den" as if to challenge critics to make their appearance.

                Ha! I notice that none here have yet to requite my love and make their appearance at my place.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
                http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

                (37)

                From: bluebell

                RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

                > I will note your efforts and, unless I am
                > mistaken, your refusal to simply answer
                > "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic,
                > factual claims posted to the official LDS
                > Church website.

                It's been noted that you noted it. :good:

                (39)

                From: RLBaty

                volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

                > I believe in giving people the benefit of
                > the doubt.
                >
                > I did so this time as well, but then I went
                > to your yahoo group.

                Did you happen to notice that Ray Ausban just posted a note to my list.

                He's a bonafide Mormon, as far as I can tell.

                He came over from The Christian Post.

                He puts y'all to shame.

                Here's a link direct to his latest message to which I will be responding shortly:

                http://groups.yahoo....y/message/27615

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (40)

                From: bluebell

                I have noted that your definition of the word 'antics' is messed up.

                I'm glad to go on record as not having participated in your poll though, messed up definition of 'antics' not withstanding.

                History will vindicate me!

                (41)

                From: Garden Girl

                Baty's tone of his posts and his demand for a "simple yes or no" answer to his questions is enough to turn me off of any interest in participating... not all questions can be answered with a simple yes or no (I could probably do so depending on how the questions are worded, but I have little hope that Baty is truly interested in an open dialog as yes or no does not foster dialog)... his agenda is apparent just by his tone and attitude.

                All of us who participate regularly here have had numerous open, honest discussions with non-members and critics alike on a wide variety of church doctrine and related issues.

                As for being anonymous... I don't see what my real name would add to any discussion... I don't post my real name anywhere on the internet unless I am very sure of the people involved... and I see no reason to post my name for Baty.

                GG

                (42)

                From: RLBaty

                bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

                > I have noted that your definition of the
                > word 'antics' is messed up.
                >
                > I'm glad to go on record as not having
                > participated in your poll though, messed
                > up definition of 'antics' not withstanding.
                >
                > History will vindicate me! ;)

                NOPE!

                I don't think history is going to be vindicating you.

                But it will vindicate my analysis of such antics as you display in evading engaging in open, honest discussion of these important, public issues.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
                http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

                (43)

                From: RLBaty

                Garden Girl, on 01 July 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

                > Baty's tone of his posts and his demand for a
                > "simple yes or no" answer to his questions is
                > enough to turn me off of any interest in
                > participating... not all questions can be
                > answered with a simple yes or no (I could
                > probably do so depending on how the questions
                > are worded, but I have little hope that Baty
                > is truly interested in an open dialog as yes
                > or no does not foster dialog)... his agenda
                > is apparent just by his tone and attitude.
                >
                > All of us who participate regularly here have
                > had numerous open, honest discussions with
                > non-members and critics alike on a wide variety
                > of church doctrine and related issues.
                >
                > As for being anonymous... I don't see what my
                > real name would add to any discussion... I don't
                > post my real name anywhere on the internet unless
                > I am very sure of the people involved... and I
                > see no reason to post my name for Baty.

                I have already dealt with those issues, but will add this to encourage the poster to either "give an answer" or continue his/her run.

                The claims are clearly enough stated, from the official LDS Church website that one, especially a Mormon, should be able to easily answer "yes" or "no" to each claim indicating whether or not they believe the claims made on the LDS Church webpage.

                If you don't think so, we can discuss your problem. Other Mormons have had no such problem in answering, where they have not been like so many others and played these "Mormon Games" in refusing to "give an answer".

                Anonymity has its advantages; particularly in playing Internet games such as has been going on from the Mormon side of things here.
                I get it.

                Feel free to remain anonymous. It has its consequences. I get it. Really.

                I'm a little curious about another matter. Is no one asking me to post the poll here, and not posting it themselves, because they simply don't even want readers here to have ready access to what Mormons are evading "giving an answer" regarding what they believe?

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
                http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

                (44)

                From: bluebell

                RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

                > NOPE!
                >
                > I don't think history is going to be vindicating
                > you.
                >
                > But it will vindicate my analysis of such antics
                > as you display in evading engaging in open, honest
                > discussion of these important, public issues.

                Sorry, that 'vindicate me' quote's a history inside joke that i just could NOT resist.

                Seriously though, knock yourself out with the analyzing and all the judging. I promise not to loose any sleep over it. In fact, i've got some great things to do tonight and probably won't be back to this conversation so i'll even help you prove your superiority to me by giving you the last word. :D

                (and seriously, learn the definition of 'antics'.)

                (45)

                From: RLBaty

                bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

                > Sorry, that 'vindicate me' quote's a history
                > inside joke that i just could NOT resist.
                >
                > Seriously though, knock yourself out with the
                > analyzing and all the judging.
                >
                > I promise not to loose any sleep over it.
                >
                > In fact, i've got some great things to do
                > tonight and probably won't be back to this
                > conversation so i'll even help you prove your
                > superiority to me by giving you the last word.
                >
                > :D
                >
                > (and seriously, learn the definition of 'antics'.)

                HA! Thanks for giving me another opportunity to reference some of my favorite Bible verses!

                Matthew 7:1,2
                James 3:1

                If you have a problem understanding the application to y'all's antics here, let me know; I'm open to conversation.

                For instance, after you "give an answer" to the poll issues as a reflection of your good faith in these important matters, we can then consider quibbling a bit about the definition problem you are having with regard to "antics".

                I guess of the Mormon apologist Brian Casaday can quibble about cocoa and bait people with the question about how many children Joseph Smith had, I can discuss the meaning I use when talking about "antics".

                And your answer to the poll issues are?????

                Or is this the last word you are going to let me have as far as your involvement in these matters???

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty
                http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

                (46)

                From: calmoriah

                volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

                > I believe in giving people the benefit of the
                > doubt.
                >
                > I did so this time as well, but then I went
                > to your yahoo group.

                Exactly...

                (47)

                From: calmoriah

                Quote

                > I'm a little curious about another matter.
                >
                > Is no one asking me to post the poll here,
                > and not posting it themselves, because they
                > simply don't even want readers here to have
                > ready access to what Mormons are evading
                > "giving an answer" regarding what they believe?

                Not by me.

                It is against the board rules to have confrontational posts/debates here in Social Hall.

                This is supposed to be for social support and fun stuff. This is not the "lion's mouth" but a room full of kittens.

                If the mods close down the thread, just think...you can claim that once again you are proven that LDS will evade, etc. etc. You would be wrong...but I don't expect that to stop you.

                If you want the poll posted, you might contact the mods and ask for the thread to be moved or something else to the main forum. Good luck with that one.....

                (48)

                RLBaty

                calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

                > It is against the board rules to have confrontational
                > posts/debates here in Social Hall.
                >
                > This is supposed to be for social support and fun
                > stuff.
                >
                > This is not the "lion's mouth" but a room full of
                > kittens.
                >
                > If the mods close down the thread, just think...
                > you can claim that once again you are proven that
                > LDS will evade, etc. etc.
                >
                > You would be wrong...
                > but I don't expect that to stop you.
                >
                > If you want the poll posted, you might contact
                > the mods and ask for the thread to be moved or
                > something else to the main forum.
                >
                > Good luck with that one.....

                Who is not having fun?
                Who is being confrontational?

                Linda Fiatoa expressed some concern recently, warning me not to put words in her mouth!

                Ha!

                It seems Mormons here are pretty good at trying to anticipate what words will come out of my mouth based on speculative developments.

                I pretty much let moderators do what moderators do.

                If they pull the plug on this thread or otherwise tamper with the evidence, I won't necessary attribute it to evasion. How I characterize it may depend on what, if any, explanation is given. If they attribute their action to any unseemly comments from me, or the posting of my poll, I will be very critical of their actions since it is the Mormons here who seem less inclined to have fun in taking part in my poll and discussing its relevant, important, public issues.

                I have to get in 25 posts, I hear, before I can go anywhere else here.

                So, why don't I just post my poll, for the fun of it, and see if that might encourate Mormons to participate, for the record in this important, public exercise regarding the proposition "Ask a Mormon"?

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (49)

                From: RLBaty

                OK, here it is!

                The poll issues, current responses to date, and the official LDS Church website whereof the poll issues were derived:

                Poll Issues:

                > (A) God revealed the doctrine of
                > plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
                >
                >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
                >>
                >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
                >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

                > (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
                > to live it?
                >
                >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
                >>
                >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
                >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

                > ? Joseph Smith taught the
                > doctrine to some associates?
                >
                >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
                >>
                >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
                >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

                > (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
                > his associates entered into plural
                > marriages?
                >
                >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
                >>
                >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
                >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

                > (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
                > needed and received personal inspiration
                > from God to help them enter in to
                > plural marriages?
                >
                >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
                >>
                >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
                >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
                >> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

                "Official" Mormon Website:

                http://classic.lds.o...0004d82620aRCRD

                Now, who wants to have some NON-confrontational fun in discussion one or more of the various aspects of the poll?

                Anyone?

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (50)

                RLBaty

                For your enjoyment and further education regarding the history of these important public matters, I have posted a note at my place that explains a little more about how I came to be here.

                Also, I note that still none here have requited my love and dared to show up at my place.

                Here's the link to my just posted note about how I came to be here:

                http://groups.yahoo....y/message/27619

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (51)

                From: calmoriah

                Quote

                > Also, I note that still none here have requited
                > my love and dared to show up at my place.

                I've been warned about going to meet strangers off of the internet, especially those protesting love and romance....

                http://www.dangersof...rnetdating.com/

                (52)

                RLBaty

                calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

                > I've been warned about going to meet strangers
                > off of the internet, especially those protesting
                > love and romance....
                >
                > http://www.dangersof...rnetdating.com/

                I would hope that was not intended as another lame explanation as to why you haven't made an appearance at my place.

                If so, feel free to find a surrogate to represent you there.

                I've seen so many non-anonymous Mormons all over the Internet, and I've been inviting them to my place.

                Ray showed up and is a member, and Linda even sent a message though remaining a non-member.

                Others have stayed away for less than legitimate reasons.

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (53)

                From: RLBaty

                For those who may really be to "scared" to even click on my links, here's that message (excerpts) I just posted explaining how I came to be here (note also the polygamy reference made by the Mormon):

                Todd's recent message provided the following link to a news article about
                Mormons leaving their church:

                http://www.mormondia...elcome-message/
                (Wrong link - RLBaty)

                Here's an excerpt from one of the reader's comments:

                > From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon Apologist)
                > Date: June 18, 2012
                >
                > You have all the information you want and all
                > from the mouth of the Lion as you so aptly put it.
                >
                > Where did you get your info about...
                > How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
                > And the...
                > You talk about the Lion's mouth.
                >
                > I will never refer someone of your obvious
                > intelligence and open mind (wreathing with
                > sarcasm) to mormon.org or lds.org but you
                > might want to try..., and finally for a fun
                > debate filled experience
                >
                >> http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
                >
                > Now these are the mouth of the lion.
                >
                > They actually offer answers not just...
                >
                > I as a member of the LDS church invite all
                > to investigate, research, study, ponder and
                > pray.
                >
                > I challenge you to overcome your personal
                > prejudice and...
                >
                > But by all means be civil and respectful
                > no matter what your answer is.

                And so I did!

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                (end of discussion thread in the Mormons "lion's den")

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