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Re: Evolution: Just one thing!

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  • mathewmaury
    Steven, This is a very well written response. Did you forget to attribute the source? There is nothing wrong with quoting when the original authors are
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 3, 2003
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      Steven,
      This is a very well written response.
      Did you forget to attribute the source?
      There is nothing wrong with quoting when
      the original authors are referenced.
      Citing references is honest and fair and
      will help keep you out of tight jams in
      followup conversations.

      I believe the reference you omitted is:
      "Fast Facts on False Teachings"
      by Ron Carlson and Ed Decker

      Welcome to this list and good luck
      persuading some very hard heads.
    • rlbaty50
      Steven, Thanks for the post. For someone who is wanting so many things and making so many claims, it caught me as odd that you seem only have voiced your
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 3, 2003
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        Steven,

        Thanks for the post. For someone who is wanting so many things and
        making so many claims, it caught me as odd that you seem only have
        voiced your opinions in the matter.

        I'll leave the heavy lifting to Todd, if he chooses to respond to
        you, who is more adept at such discussions. After all,
        the "challenge" was his, not mine. However, I will put in my few
        cents worth after my first impressions of your post.

        You wrote:

        > The question is: Based on the scientific evidence that
        > we all have, is it more logical , is it more rational,
        > and is it more scientific to put our faith in evolution?
        > OR, is it more rational, more logical and more scientific
        > to put our faith in God and creation?

        I think that might qualify, logically, as a "black-white" fallacy.

        You continued:

        > The 2nd law of TD states that all the energy in the
        > universe useful for work (kinetic energy) is in a
        > process of running down! Evolution has it BACKWARDS!

        > My question to you is ; what do you do with the 2nd
        > Law of Thermodynamics? Now, I do not want your
        > "philosophical assumptions," give me SCIENTIFIC FACTS!

        It just so happens that one of my members who has some expertise on
        that topic has a website addressing this particularly point. Perhaps
        you, and others, missed it. It can be found on my links page and the
        address is:

        > http://www.ntanet.net/Thermo-Internet.htm

        Of course, a little looking on the Internet will probably get you
        hundreds of similar articles which are quite similar, or even better
        at refuting the "young-earth, creation-science" claims regarding
        thermodynamics.

        You continued:

        > There is NO evidence for evolution, in fact, it all
        > demonstrates that we are a unique creation of GOD!
        >
        > Some will not accept this fact philosophically because
        > some do not want to believe in God. . .

        What about the "some" who want to and do believe in God and evolution
        and deny your "factual", not philosophic, claim that there is "NO"
        evidence for evolution?? Just how do you propose to "prove",
        scientifically, that there is "NO" evidence for evolution??

        You wrote:

        > More upcoming

        Yes, I suspect and hope there will be more. You have opined on many
        things, and, ultimately, it may be preferable to identify just one
        particular and compelling issue of mutual interest to pursue.

        For instance, you seem to confuse the issues of evolution and
        creation. They aren't mutually exclusive. Many, if not most,
        believers in God accept both creation and evolution. In essence, in
        trying to figure out the dividing line, it seems to me the "age"
        issue is most relevant.

        That is where the crux of Todd's challenge comes in to play.

        Does the "young-earth, creation-science" movement have any of
        those "scientific proofs" you are asking for to support their claims
        of a creation 10,000 or so years ago?

        Is Steven Estes even going to try and present any "scientific facts"
        for his "age" position? It doesn't look like it so far.

        What does Steven Estes do with the "Goliath of GRAS"? It looks like
        he simply denies the evidence of an ancient age of things if "fake".

        It looks to be shaping up as an interesting discussion.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty
      • Todd S. Greene
        ... [snip] ... Preachers and other religious propagandists are notoriously bad at guessing at what science is and isn t, and representing it correctly. ...
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 3, 2003
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          --- In Maury_and_Baty, Steven Estes wrote (post #2543):
          [snip]
          > The main point I believe is that we must realize that science is
          > LIMITED to what we can OBSERVE and what we can EXPERIMENT with in
          > repeatable units. OBVIOUSLY nobody observed the origin of the
          > universe, and it is obvious that you cannot repeat the experiment,
          > therefore were not talking "scientifically" but rather
          > "philosophically." The point is; that science DISPROVES evolution,
          > but DOES NOT and CANNOT "disprove" a special creation of God!

          Preachers and other religious propagandists are notoriously bad at
          guessing at what science is and isn't, and representing it correctly.

          >
          > The problem is, we have 2 philosophical FAITH propositions,
          > evolution or creation. The question is: Based on the scientific
          > evidence that we all have, is it more logical, is it more
          > rational, and is it more scientific to put our faith in evolution?
          > OR, is it more rational, more logical and more scientific to put
          > our faith in God and creation?

          There are an awful lot of problems with these statements and their
          premises.

          One problem is the play on the word "evolution." Evolution is
          typically used to refer to biological evolution, but here Steven uses
          the word "evolution" to refer to the origin of the universe, when
          actually the more proper term to use in reference to that subject
          is "cosmology" or "physics" or "astrophysics."

          Another problem is the implied premise that one who puts his faith in
          God must be a young earth creationist. This premise is patently
          false. There are a great number of Christians who would flatly
          disagree with Steven on this point. These are Christians who believe
          in God and who at the same time accept the fact that the universe and
          the earth have been in existence for billions of years, and that life
          on earth has evolved over its duration of existence on the earth.

          >
          > THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC evidence for creation! IN FACT evolution is
          > PROVEN WRONG by science. The first law of thermodynamics states
          > that energy and matter ARE NOT being created or destroyed, they
          > remain constant!
          >
          > The 2nd law of TD states that all the energy in the universe
          > useful for work (kinetic energy) is in a process of running down!
          > Evolution has it BACKWARDS! The theory of evolution says that
          > everything is moving upwards to greater and greater complexity and
          > organization, ALL BY CHANCE! But THE LAWS OF PHYSICS (the 2nd law
          > of TD) says that everything is going in the OPPOSITE direction,
          > from what the evolutionists ASSUME!

          Well, the theory of evolution does NOT say "that everything is moving
          upwards to greater and greater complexity and organization." Also,
          the theory of evolution does NOT say that evolution occurs "ALL BY
          CHANCE." So Steven's representation of evolution is simply wrong on
          these two counts.

          >
          > Evolutionists (many of them) will state that if you just allow
          > enough time ANYTHING can happen. Time is the "magic pill" for
          > them. BUT A BASIC LAW OF PHYSICS states that the GREATER THE TIME
          > SPAN, the GREATER the CHAOS and DISORGANIZATION!

          The Second Law of thermodynamics does not say this at all. Steven is
          adding his own rhetoric into the mix here.

          >
          > My question to you is ; what do you do with the 2nd Law of
          > Thermodynamics? Now, I do not want your "philosophical
          > assumptions," give me SCIENTIFIC FACTS!

          For more detailed discussion of young earth creationists' abuse of
          the Second Law of thermodynamics, take a look here:

          Entropy, God and Evolution
          by Doug Craigen
          http://www.charleswood.ca/reading/evolution.php

          The Second Law of Thermodynamics in the Context of the Christian Faith
          by Allan H. Harvey
          http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/thermo.html

          (By the way, both Craigen and Harvey are Christians.)

          >
          > My other question is what do you do with the PROVEN LAW OF
          > BIOGENESIS? That Louis Pasteur and others established when they
          > PROVED over 130 years ago that NONLIFE CANNOT PRODUCE LIFE!!!
          >
          > When Louis Pasteur DISPROVED spontaneous generation, he DESTROYED
          > the whole foundation of the evolutionary theory. LIFE ONLY COMES
          > FROM LIFE.
          >
          > Now I know some do not want to be confused by the facts but just
          > want to hold on to their bias presuppositions, But spontaneous
          > regeneration if SCIENTIFICALLY impossible!

          The origin of life is an outstanding issue of current scientific
          investigation. I would point out here though that this is an
          independent issue from the evolution of that life once living
          organisms exist and are replicating.

          >
          > There is NO evidence for evolution, in fact, it all demonstrates
          > that we are a unique creation of GOD!

          I would note here that Steven completely ignored my previous post
          (post #2530) on the subject of evolution. In other words, Steven
          simply ignores the evidence for evolution and then falsly states that
          there is no evidence for evolution.

          Here is a link to my post:

          "Re: Evolution - Just One Thing!" (10/2/03)
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/2530

          >
          > Some will not accept this fact philosophically because some do
          > not want to believe in God, therefore they choose to believe in
          > that which they KNOW is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!

          As I have pointed out already, and as I'm sure I'll have to point out
          again several times since young earth creationists find it virtually
          impossible to correct even obvious errors in their rhetoric,
          evolution is not somehow merely a "faith" that's being promoted by
          those who "do not want to believe in God." (Gee, some of this
          rhetoric - such as this particular one about evolution being merely
          some kind of atheistic faith - has been around for several decades,
          has had the error pointed out for just as long, and yet YECs just
          continue to promote the error without any respect for the truth.)
          Just from the two references I gave above we have the fact that both
          Craigen and Harvey believe in God and accept evolution. Here's
          another example of the fact that Christians accept the antiquity of
          the world and evolution:

          Perspectives on an Evolving Creation (2003)
          edited by Keith B. Miller
          http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~kbmill/Book_Ann.html
          http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802805124

          from the website:

          | Whatever views one may entertain about the implications of the
          | Christian faith for the practice of science and about the bearing
          | of the natural sciences on Christianity, *Perspectives on an
          | Evolving Creation* is essential reading for those interested in
          | these relationships. Editor Keith Miller has put together a
          | superb slate of contributors for a volume dedicated to the
          | proposition that an evolutionary conception of creation is
          | compatible with orthodox, evangelical Christianity and with a
          | high view of the Bible as the infallible Word of God. The authors
          | approach the theme of an evolving creation from the vantage
          | points of history of science, cosmology, geology, paleontology,
          | biochemistry, anthropology, theology, and environmental studies.

          Indeed, the general Christian community accepted both the antiquity
          of the world, and evolution (but not "Darwinism"), over a hundred
          years ago. This is simply a matter of historical fact. When are
          Steven and other young earth creationists who are so fond of using
          this kind of false rhetoric going to remove this falsehood from their
          rhetoric?

          Scientists don't make it a habit to "choose to believe in that which
          they KNOW is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE" because they are
          *scientists*, by which I mean that they are engaged in scientific
          research (in other words, as professionals). Scientists as a
          community are pretty unforgiving of those who "choose to believe in
          that which they KNOW is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE." For example, part
          of the evaluation of professors in universities who are engaged in
          scientific research is based on publication of their research in the
          professional science literature. These professional journals take a
          very dim view of scientists who try to write stuff about science that
          is scientifically impossible. They don't get published. Not getting
          published reflects back on their professional evaluations with
          respect to their jobs. In other words, scientists have a personal
          incentive to *not* get bogged down in personal dogma with respect to
          their scientific research, because doing so will have adverse affects
          on their careers. (And when it comes to outright fraud, when fraud is
          discovered, the scientific careers of those scientists who have
          engaged in it are ended. The scientific community is extremely
          intolerant of fraud.)

          So in both of these respects Steven's claim here is flatly wrong.

          >
          > I have a few questions;
          >
          > 1. How do you get life from non living matter? When it is
          > scientifically impossible, the law of Biogenesis says that life
          > ONLY comes from life! I want to know the scientific FACTS, not
          > your ASSUMPTIONS of faith in evolution.

          The question "How do you get life from non-living matter?" is an
          excellent question. Several researchers around the world are engaged
          in research relevant to this very question.

          It is spontaneous generation that is scientifically impossible.
          Hypotheses concerning the origin of life by origins of life
          researchers today do not involve spontaneous generation. Good thing,
          huh?

          >
          > 2. In regards to the basic Laws of Probability, what is the
          > probability of life arising by chance? This one I will answer for
          > you; the probability of life arising by chance is the same
          > probability as throwing a six on a die FIVE MILLION CONSECUTIVE
          > TIMES!!
          >
          > The probability of life evolving to greater and greater
          > complexity and organization by chance is the same probability as
          > having a tornado tear through a junkyard and producing a Boeing
          > 747 jetliner at the other end!
          >
          > The FACT is: Random impersonal chance does NOT produce complexity
          > and organization, it produces only greater CHAOS! People need to
          > be intellectually honest!

          News flash! The origin of life was not the result of mere random
          chance (as I've already pointed out, hypotheses concerning the origin
          of life by origins of life researchers today do not involve
          spontaneous generation), but the result of stepwise processes
          occurring over time as the result of chemical affinities in local
          environments.

          >
          > So, the RIDDLE is this: How, when no life existed, did substances
          > come into being which are absolutely essential for life, BUT can
          > only be produced BY LIFE? (examples; the metabolic motor of a
          > cell, RNA, DNA etc. etc.)
          >
          > How when no life existed, did these (RNA,DNA etc) and other
          > substances come into being which are essential for life, but
          > again can ONLY be produced by life?
          >
          > You must ASSUME BY FAITH, that contrary to the Laws of science,
          > SOMEHOW it occurred!

          Instead of Steven's misrepresentative caricature, you might try
          taking a look at a recent article from genuine origins of life
          researchers:

          On the origins of cells: a hypothesis for the evolutionary
          transitions from abiotic geochemistry to chemoautotrophic
          prokaryotes, and from prokaryotes to nucleated cells
          by William Martin and Michael J. Russell
          http://www.gla.ac.uk/projects/originoflife/html/2001/pdf_files/
          Martin_&_Russell.pdf
          (note line-wrapping of link; 2.1 MB PDF file)

          >
          > Why are there no PROVEN (not hoaxes like the Piltdown man, Lucy,
          > etc) transitional fossils? There should be MILLIONS upon millions
          > of transitional forms, but in REALITY not ONE has been found.
          > What has been found is everything appearing FULLY FORMED after
          > its own kind!

          There are all kinds of transitional fossils, but Steven simply
          chooses to ignore them. (I pointed out some examples of transitional
          fossils, such as the *Acanthostega gunnari* in my previous post - the
          post that Steven has completely ignored.)

          The Piltdown man was indeed a hoax, and it was evolutionists who
          exposed the hoax.

          "Lucy" (an Australopithecus afarensis specimen) is *not* a hoax.
          Steven is wrong about this.

          >
          > We have never observed evolution in the fossil record,

          This is simply a lie. I discussed how we observe evolution in the
          fossil record in my previous post.

          > and we have
          > never observed evolution in the natural world.

          This, too, is simply a lie. Indeed, Steven needs to catch up with
          some of his fellow young earth creationists on this. The YEC
          organizations ICR, CRS, and AiG accept that evolution in the natural
          world is observed to occur today. They call it microevolution.

          > IN FACT, evolution
          > exists ONLY in the IMAGINATION of evolutionists!

          Isn't it easy to say whatever you want when you feel free to simply
          ignore and lie about the objective data that you don't like?

          >
          > I think that many think that evolution is "morally comfortable,"
          > that as long as they believe they are nothing but an accident,
          > evolved from slimy algae, that they are nothing but an animal,
          > they can live morally any way they choose.
          >
          > They seem to think that if there is no God and they are simply
          > evolved from slimy algae, they have no moral consequences. BUT,
          > as soon as they ADMIT that there is a creator, then they become
          > morally RESPONSIBLE to that creator! And, they do not want to be
          > morally responsible to anyone! If people "understand" that as
          > long as they believe that they are nothing but animals, they can
          > live any way they choose! BUT, as soon as they admit there is a
          > God, the whole ball game changes.
          >
          > More upcoming, Steven Estes

          Oh, yes, how can a YEC possibly discuss this subject without making
          the "evolution is nothing more than an atheistic conspiracy"
          argument? I challenge Steven to find one single article in the
          scientific literature relevant to biological evolution (biology,
          biochemistry, or paleontology) that uses the idea of "no God, no
          morals" as some kind of support for the idea of evolution. In fact,
          Steven cannot find such an article because one does not exist. (And -
          again - Christians accept the fact of evolution, just as they also
          accept the fact that the earth orbits the sun.) This is a classic
          case of young earth creationists using a completely irrelevant (and
          false) *ad hominem* kind of argument.

          It's also so very amusing to see a young earth creationist talk about
          morality and responsibility when these are the same guys who promote
          such silly propaganda as, say, the moon dust argument or the
          shrinking sun argument for decades after it is known to be wrong. I
          guess young earth creationists are fond of showing us by example
          their "moral comfort" with hypocrisy.

          Regards,
          Todd S. Greene
          http://www.creationism.cc/
        • rlbaty50
          ... Should the It is have been Is it with a ? at the end to indicate a rhetorical question? Or, maybe you meant It is not ? In the context, you through
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 3, 2003
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            Todd, you wrote, in part:

            > It is spontaneous generation that is scientifically
            > impossible.

            Should the "It is" have been "Is it" with a "?" at the end to
            indicate a rhetorical question?

            Or, maybe you meant "It is not"?

            In the context, you through me off with that.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty
          • Todd S. Greene
            ... Hi, Robert. Thanks for asking. Actually in this case there is no typo involved. Spontaneous generation is indeed scientifically impossible. The point I
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 3, 2003
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              --- In Maury_and_Baty, Robert Baty wrote (post #2547):
              > Todd, you wrote, in part:
              >
              >> It is spontaneous generation that is scientifically
              >> impossible.
              >
              > Should the "It is" have been "Is it" with a "?" at the end to
              > indicate a rhetorical question?
              >
              > Or, maybe you meant "It is not"?
              >
              > In the context, you threw me off with that.

              Hi, Robert.

              Thanks for asking. Actually in this case there is no typo involved.
              Spontaneous generation is indeed scientifically impossible. The point
              I made was that origins of life research does not involve the concept
              of spontaneous generation. A "simplest living organism" is *not*
              going to organize spontaneously from the elements by random chance -
              and no origins of life researcher would ever say that it did. This is
              my point. When creationists invoke "spontaneous generation" in
              connection with origins of life research today, they are merely
              playing a typical creationist game of misrepresentative caricature.

              Regards,
              Todd Greene
            • mathewmaury
              ... Is this clear to anyone else? Is Todd claiming that randomness was not involved in his origin of life scheme? Or that life was not created through natural
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 3, 2003
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                --- Todd wrote:
                > Thanks for asking. Actually in this case there is no typo
                > involved. Spontaneous generation is indeed scientifically
                > impossible. The point I made was that origins of life
                > research does not involve the concept of spontaneous
                > generation. A "simplest living organism" is *not* going to
                > organize spontaneously from the elements by random chance -
                > and no origins of life researcher would ever say that it
                > did. This is my point. When creationists invoke "spontaneous
                > generation" in connection with origins of life research
                > today, they are merely playing a typical creationist game of
                > misrepresentative caricature.

                Is this clear to anyone else?
                Is Todd claiming that randomness was not involved in his
                origin of life scheme? Or that life was not created through
                natural processes? Or is he saying the process that created
                life was externally directed?

                How does Todd say life began if it did not organize
                spontaneously from the elements by random chance?
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