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Re: [coCBanned] Re: Sn1987a refutes Humphreys

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  • PIASAN@aol.com
    From: DBWILLIS Pi (previously): I also clearly stated that at the time Sn1987a went supernova, the event horizon had vanished. David: That is untrue. There
    Message 1 of 3 , May 4, 2011
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      From: DBWILLIS
      Pi (previously):
      I also clearly stated that at the time Sn1987a went supernova, the event horizon had vanished.>>

      David:
      That is untrue. There is no need to say that it must have vanished.

      Pi:
      The mathematics dictates it would have vanished. That is sufficient "need." Why won't you address the issues I've raised with some real calculations?

      1) If the universe were 30x smaller, Sn1987a would have started out some 5600 ly from Earth. True or false? If false, why?
      2) If the distance to Sn1987a doubled to 11,200 ly, the distance to about 99.9999% of the rest of the universe would have at least doubled. This is based either on your model or my uniform expansion. In fact, your model suggests the mass would be much farther than mine. True or false? If false, why?
      3) If the average distance to the mass of the universe doubles from Humphreys' initial size (to around 1 billion ly) the time dilation factor on Earth would be 72.8%. True or false? If false, why?
      4) Sn1987a was about 168,000 ly from Earth at the time it went supernova. True or false? If false, why?

      If you have some scenario in which Sn1987a could be 168,000 ly without the event horizon having evaporated, PRODUCE THE MATH.


      #####
      David:
      It would still exist, and you have ADMITTED it would still exist, since you agreed there would be a time when Earth could be inside the EH while SN1987a is outside it.

      Pi:
      No, I simply admitted there was a time when the Earth was inside the horizon and Sn1987a was outside it. That would be a natural consequence of the dissipation of the event horizon. I've NEVER agreed the Earth and Sn1987a were on opposite sides of the event horizon at the time of the supernova event. In fact, I've ALWAYS argued the exact opposite.



      #####
      - - - previously - - -
      >>Pi: Hence, that period is irrelevant. You could have a trillion years pass at Sn1987a, before the event horizon dissipates, but if the Sn event takes place after the event horizon is gone, you don't have enough time for the light from the explosion to reach Earth.>>
      - - - end previous - - -

      David:
      You can't seem to make up your mind.

      Pi:
      No. I've been absolutely consistent. Here it is again:
      1) In Humphreys' model, Sn1987a would have started out about 5600 ly from Earth.
      2) When Sn1987a has doubled its distance to 11,200 ly, the rest of the universe would have AT LEAST doubled its distance. That's about 99.9999% of the universe.
      3) Calculating the time dilation factor with the universe twice the size it began gives Earth a clock rate of 72.8% the present value.
      4) For Sn1987a to move from 11,200 ly to 168,000 ly at the speed of light would require over 114,000 years (based on Earth clocks running at 72.8% the Sn1987a rate). Note: there is NO evidence Sn1987a ever had that kind of velocity relative to Earth.
      5) By the time Sn1987a reached its present distance from Earth, there would be NO event horizon.

      This has all been backed up with relevant calculations.



      #####
      David:
      You have agreed that there would be a point at which the EH would be positioned so that Earth was inside it and SN1987a was outside it. That is due to the contraction of the white hole's radius as matter expanded outward.

      Pi:
      Yep. There was A POINT at which that would be true. Now, it is to you to SHOW the situation existed at the time Sn1987a went supernova. The problem is you CAN'T show it, can you? I think if you could you would have by now.


      #####
      David:
      What you are failing to acknowledge is that God could (if He so chose) send outward the outermost mass while maintaining the concentration of matter within the EH. So long as that concentration remained high, the white hole would be maintained, although it would become smaller, retracting toward the center of the U. At every point along the way, there would be massive time dilation between objects near but inside the EH and objects outside it. When the EH reaches Earth, then there is plenty of time (i.e. cosmic time) for SN to expand outward to its present position and for the star to go supernova and for the light from that event to reach most of the way to Earth...all while only seconds passed on Day 4 on Earth.

      Pi:
      Argument from Biblical apologetics noted. Now, let's return to Einstein and the relevant calculations.



      #####
      David:
      If it helps, picture the reverse...the extreme difference in concentration of matter outside a black hole vs. inside its EH. Picture the black hole getting LARGER (cf. to the white hole retracting and getting smaller). There would always be a large concentration of matter inside the EH even though outside the EH, the density of matter is much less. "Onion layers" are ADDED to the black hole as mass moves inward...much like how "onion layers" would be peeled off as matter expands outward with RH's idea. Maybe picturing the traffic jam...viewing it as cars start to "pile up" and then as cars are released away from the accident site...would help you.

      Pi:
      Same picture. You still need to demonstrate Sn1987a and Earth were on opposite sides of the event horizon at the time Sn1987a went supernova.



      #####
      David:
      I can't tell if you are just being stubborn or dense. I've tried to clarify this for you now about 6 times.



      Pi:
      That's funny, I was just thinking the same thing of you. If you want to "clarify this" for me, don't just argue by assertion.... SHOW YOUR MATH.



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