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Re: [coCBanned] Re: Creation Astronomy by Jason Lisle (instant incoming SOL)

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  • PIASAN@aol.com
    DW here, - - - - previously - - - ... David: I think I agree with your first test ...but would like to hear how Lisle would respond to that point. I don t
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 29, 2011
      DW here,
      - - - - previously - - -
      Pi:
      >>2) Two way communication with Apollo astronauts on the moon. If Lisle is right, those exchanges should have had time delays like those we experience with cell phone conversations. Unfortunately (for Lisle) the time delays in those communications were just what we would expect if the standard model for light travel times is correct.
      >>

      David:
      I think I agree with your first "test"...but would like to hear how Lisle would respond to that point. I don't agree with your second one. If signals from Earth took c/2 to get TO the astronauts, then if their replies were instant, it still would give the same time delay as what was observed.

      #####
      Pi:
      If Lisle is right, the astronauts would receive transmissions from Earth instantly (because they are the "observers") and their responses would also be instant as in that case, Mission Control would be the "observer.">>
      - - - - end previous - - - -

      David:
      No one, including Lisle says that C is instant in BOTH directions. It is only instant coming TOWARD the receiver. And C is half-speed going AWAY from the sender. You don't understand what Lisle is saying, apparently.

      #####
      Pi:
      I understand the model perfectly. You apparently don't understand the consequences.

      When transmitting from ground control to the moon, the signal travels TOWARD the receiving astronauts on the moon instantly. In Lisle's model, they will receive the signal at the instant it was sent from ground control. Therefore, the time delay from the ground to the moon = 0. We'll ignore the paradox this creates as the signal reaches the moon at two different times (one measured by the receiver and one measured by the sender).

      Then, when the astronauts on the moon transmit to ground control, the signal travels TOWARD the receiving controllers on the ground instantly. In Lisle's model, they will receive the signal at the instant is was sent from the moon. Therefore, the time delay from the moon to the ground = 0.



      David:
      The evidence of messages from the moon is supportive of either view...the standard one, or Lisle's. BOTH would involve the same amount of delay.
      ######
      Pi:
      Maybe things have changed since I went to school, but as I recall, 0 + 0 = 0. In Lisle's model, the time delay should be zero and conducting a conversation with astronauts on the moon should be like talking with people in the same room (time wise).



      David:
      As of now, I think your GPS example is a good one for invalidating Lisle's idea, but again, I'd like to hear his reply about it. I did a brief Google search for "Jason Lisle" and "GPS" but didn't find anything from him (or his supporters) that addressed it.
      ######
      Pi:
      I'm not surprised as Lisle seems to overlook the obvious.


      ########
      ########
      From another post:

      On another list: Todd>>> One-way speed is measured (i.e., used) all the time, such as sending command signals to satellites. For example, NASA sends signals to probes to engage in particular maneuvers at specific times, and if the speed of light was not constant (or close to constant) this simply wouldn't work and probes' path would go awry and they'd end up crashing into moons or missing orbital insertions or having all kinds of other problems, discrepancies which engineers and operators would have observed decades ago. >>

      David:
      I'm not sure this example disproves Lisle's idea...as Todd believes. If the probe's incoming signal (to Earth) is instant, indicating its position, but NASA presumes the signal came at SOL, so the position is a bit further out...and then NASA sends a signal TO the probe assuming SOL, but it is really SOL/2....then the result would be the same, and the guidance maneuvers would work correctly.
      #####
      Pi:
      I hesitated to use navigation of space probes as they do have their own internal clocks which are (probably) used to time engine burns. Besides, GPS and communication with lunar astronauts are more than ample to demonstrate Lisle's model is fatally flawed.



      David:
      Lisle is an astrophysist (I think) and Todd is just a bumbling amateur, so pardon me for thinking that Lisle has a better handle on what would or wouldn't work for guiding space probes.
      ######
      Pi:
      Lisle lost a lot of credibility by his claims that his model can't be tested because it's impossible to synchronize the clocks of test stations and two ways to do this have been presented here.... at least one of which David agrees with. Further, the synchronization problems he complains about are insignificant when compared to the amount of time delay his model demands.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Todd Greene
      Pi, you forgot the fact that satellites record digital logs of their activities, which includes the reception and sending of signals from and to Earth, and the
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 29, 2011
        Pi, you forgot the fact that satellites record digital logs of their activities, which includes the reception and sending of signals from and to Earth, and the fact that they do indeed have (internal) clocks and the activity logs record the activity times and the clocks are synchronized with Earth clocks. As I already pointed out, engineers and operators would have noticed such huge discrepancies decades ago. The whole premise David Willis (and Jason Lisle) is working from, that these discrepancies would have somehow remained completely invisible to engineers and operators, is utterly ludicrous. I'm still amazed at how these people so quickly latch onto such lunacies, again, and again, and again, and again.

        What we're observing is the young earth creationist penchant for entrenchment in pushing ridiculous ideas for the purpose of promoting their false religious beliefs.

        - Todd Greene


        --- In Maury_and_Baty, PIASAN@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > DW here,
        > - - - - previously - - -
        > Pi:
        > >>2) Two way communication with Apollo astronauts on the moon. If Lisle is right, those exchanges should have had time delays like those we experience with cell phone conversations. Unfortunately (for Lisle) the time delays in those communications were just what we would expect if the standard model for light travel times is correct.
        > >>
        >
        > David:
        > I think I agree with your first "test"...but would like to hear how Lisle would respond to that point. I don't agree with your second one. If signals from Earth took c/2 to get TO the astronauts, then if their replies were instant, it still would give the same time delay as what was observed.
        >
        > #####
        > Pi:
        > If Lisle is right, the astronauts would receive transmissions from Earth instantly (because they are the "observers") and their responses would also be instant as in that case, Mission Control would be the "observer.">>
        > - - - - end previous - - - -
        >
        > David:
        > No one, including Lisle says that C is instant in BOTH directions. It is only instant coming TOWARD the receiver. And C is half-speed going AWAY from the sender. You don't understand what Lisle is saying, apparently.
        >
        > #####
        > Pi:
        > I understand the model perfectly. You apparently don't understand the consequences.
        >
        > When transmitting from ground control to the moon, the signal travels TOWARD the receiving astronauts on the moon instantly. In Lisle's model, they will receive the signal at the instant it was sent from ground control. Therefore, the time delay from the ground to the moon = 0. We'll ignore the paradox this creates as the signal reaches the moon at two different times (one measured by the receiver and one measured by the sender).
        >
        > Then, when the astronauts on the moon transmit to ground control, the signal travels TOWARD the receiving controllers on the ground instantly. In Lisle's model, they will receive the signal at the instant is was sent from the moon. Therefore, the time delay from the moon to the ground = 0.
        >
        >
        >
        > David:
        > The evidence of messages from the moon is supportive of either view...the standard one, or Lisle's. BOTH would involve the same amount of delay.
        > ######
        > Pi:
        > Maybe things have changed since I went to school, but as I recall, 0 + 0 = 0. In Lisle's model, the time delay should be zero and conducting a conversation with astronauts on the moon should be like talking with people in the same room (time wise).
        >
        >
        >
        > David:
        > As of now, I think your GPS example is a good one for invalidating Lisle's idea, but again, I'd like to hear his reply about it. I did a brief Google search for "Jason Lisle" and "GPS" but didn't find anything from him (or his supporters) that addressed it.
        > ######
        > Pi:
        > I'm not surprised as Lisle seems to overlook the obvious.
        >
        >
        > ########
        > ########
        > From another post:
        >
        > On another list: Todd>>> One-way speed is measured (i.e., used) all the time, such as sending command signals to satellites. For example, NASA sends signals to probes to engage in particular maneuvers at specific times, and if the speed of light was not constant (or close to constant) this simply wouldn't work and probes' path would go awry and they'd end up crashing into moons or missing orbital insertions or having all kinds of other problems, discrepancies which engineers and operators would have observed decades ago. >>
        >
        > David:
        > I'm not sure this example disproves Lisle's idea...as Todd believes. If the probe's incoming signal (to Earth) is instant, indicating its position, but NASA presumes the signal came at SOL, so the position is a bit further out...and then NASA sends a signal TO the probe assuming SOL, but it is really SOL/2....then the result would be the same, and the guidance maneuvers would work correctly.
        > #####
        > Pi:
        > I hesitated to use navigation of space probes as they do have their own internal clocks which are (probably) used to time engine burns. Besides, GPS and communication with lunar astronauts are more than ample to demonstrate Lisle's model is fatally flawed.
        >
        >
        >
        > David:
        > Lisle is an astrophysist (I think) and Todd is just a bumbling amateur, so pardon me for thinking that Lisle has a better handle on what would or wouldn't work for guiding space probes.
        > ######
        > Pi:
        > Lisle lost a lot of credibility by his claims that his model can't be tested because it's impossible to synchronize the clocks of test stations and two ways to do this have been presented here.... at least one of which David agrees with. Further, the synchronization problems he complains about are insignificant when compared to the amount of time delay his model demands.
      • PIASAN@aol.com
        Todd Greene Pi, you forgot the fact that satellites record digital logs of their activities, which includes the reception and sending of signals from and to
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 29, 2011
          Todd Greene
          Pi, you forgot the fact that satellites record digital logs of their activities,
          which includes the reception and sending of signals from and to Earth, and the
          fact that they do indeed have (internal) clocks and the activity logs record the
          activity times and the clocks are synchronized with Earth clocks. As I already
          pointed out, engineers and operators would have noticed such huge discrepancies
          decades ago.
          ######
          Pi:
          No, I didn't forget it. I had considered various deep space missions such as the Galileo observations when Shoemaker-Levy impacted Jupiter and I was aware of their internal clocks being synchronized with Earth clocks. I didn't need them as GPS adequately refutes Lisle's model and the Apollo communications (which, as you point out, took place decades ago) completely demolish it.




          Todd:
          The whole premise David Willis (and Jason Lisle) is working from,
          that these discrepancies would have somehow remained completely invisible to
          engineers and operators, is utterly ludicrous.
          #####
          Pi:
          In fairness, I'm the one who brought up Lisle's model and David seems somewhat. Lisle, of course, is a different matter.




          Todd:
          I'm still amazed at how these
          people so quickly latch onto such lunacies, again, and again, and again, and
          again.
          #######
          Pi:
          It's a good example of what happens when one REFUSES to even attempt an objective approach to the evidence. Doubtless Lisle has a "Statement of Faith" on file at AIG that documents his lack of objectivity.




          Todd:
          What we're observing is the young earth creationist penchant for entrenchment in
          pushing ridiculous ideas for the purpose of promoting their false religious
          beliefs.
          #######
          Pi:
          It's called "grasping at straws."




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Todd Greene
          They provide additional examples. I think they are more dramatic, because instead of dealing with fractions of a second we re dealing with at the very least
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 30, 2011
            They provide additional examples. I think they are more dramatic, because instead of dealing with fractions of a second we're dealing with at the very least several minutes.

            - Todd Greene


            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, PIASAN@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > Todd Greene
            > Pi, you forgot the fact that satellites record digital logs of their activities,
            > which includes the reception and sending of signals from and to Earth, and the
            > fact that they do indeed have (internal) clocks and the activity logs record the
            > activity times and the clocks are synchronized with Earth clocks. As I already
            > pointed out, engineers and operators would have noticed such huge discrepancies
            > decades ago.
            > ######
            > Pi:
            > No, I didn't forget it. I had considered various deep space missions such as the Galileo observations when Shoemaker-Levy impacted Jupiter and I was aware of their internal clocks being synchronized with Earth clocks. I didn't need them as GPS adequately refutes Lisle's model and the Apollo communications (which, as you point out, took place decades ago) completely demolish it.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Todd:
            > The whole premise David Willis (and Jason Lisle) is working from,
            > that these discrepancies would have somehow remained completely invisible to
            > engineers and operators, is utterly ludicrous.
            > #####
            > Pi:
            > In fairness, I'm the one who brought up Lisle's model and David seems somewhat. Lisle, of course, is a different matter.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Todd:
            > I'm still amazed at how these
            > people so quickly latch onto such lunacies, again, and again, and again, and
            > again.
            > #######
            > Pi:
            > It's a good example of what happens when one REFUSES to even attempt an objective approach to the evidence. Doubtless Lisle has a "Statement of Faith" on file at AIG that documents his lack of objectivity.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Todd:
            > What we're observing is the young earth creationist penchant for entrenchment in
            > pushing ridiculous ideas for the purpose of promoting their false religious
            > beliefs.
            > #######
            > Pi:
            > It's called "grasping at straws."
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • PIASAN@aol.com
            DW here, ... Pi: I understand the model perfectly. You apparently don t understand the consequences. When transmitting from ground control to the moon, the
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 30, 2011
              DW here,

              >>##### previously #####
              Pi:
              I understand the model perfectly. You apparently don't understand the consequences.

              When transmitting from ground control to the moon, the signal travels TOWARD the receiving astronauts on the moon instantly. In Lisle's model, they will receive the signal at the instant it was sent from ground control. Therefore, the time delay from the ground to the moon = 0. We'll ignore the paradox this creates as the signal reaches the moon at two different times (one measured by the receiver and one measured by the sender).

              Then, when the astronauts on the moon transmit to ground control, the signal travels TOWARD the receiving controllers on the ground instantly. In Lisle's model, they will receive the signal at the instant is was sent from the moon. Therefore, the time delay from the moon to the ground = 0.>>
              ##### end previous #####


              David:
              As I said, you don't understand his model. His whole idea is that there IS a difference.
              ######
              Pi:
              Yes, there is a difference... In Lisle's model light travels instantly toward an observer but only half of "c" from the source.



              David:
              You would get NOWHERE making the argument you are making re. the astronaut transmissions. That could be said about EVERY two-way radio/light transmission.
              ######
              Pi:
              Exactly.



              David:
              Just using a mirror and timing the light would (acc. to you) refute his view. However that is NOT his view!
              #####
              Pi:
              Lisle's whole point is that all of our measurements of light rely on a "mirror" method. Because of that we can't tell the difference between the standard approach and his.

              He then goes on to discuss why his method can't be tested using a pulse transmitted from one station to another. Lisle spends a lot of time discussing why he can't synchronize clocks to test his method. For example moving clocks changes their time. Forget that you can move a station 30 km at 30 km/hr and the time shift is less than 1e-13 second or so. Light would need 1e-5 seconds to travel that distance. The impact of moving the clock would be something like a hundredth of a millionth of the time period we're looking at. In other words, his excuses for not testing his model are trivial..... and Lisle should know it.




              David:
              I showed my integrity by volunteering that your GPS example seems valid. YOU should show some integrity to say that the astronaut transmissions example is invalid as a refutation of Lisle's idea.
              #####
              Pi:
              I can't, with integrity, do that. The astronaut communication is a perfect test of Lisle's model over a significant distance.



              David:
              The observations would be exactly the same if Lisle is correct. You simply don't understand his idea yet.
              ######
              Pi:
              Nope, and I understand it perfectly.




              David:
              He does NOT say (as you claim) that SOL is instantaneous BOTH ways.
              #####
              Pi:
              You don't seem to understand what I said. Lisle says light travel is instantaneous from a source to an observer. So, when Ground Control is the source a signal travels instantly to the astronauts. When the astronauts respond, they are the source and Ground Control is the observer.



              David:
              With your example there are TWO reference points
              ######
              Pi:
              No, there are two sources. Lisle says light travels from source to destination instantly. Remember, when the astronauts answer Ground Control they are sending a distinct and separate signal from the one they received.




              David:
              and Lisle would say that you can't combine BOTH reference points and then say it is instantaneous in BOTH directions!
              #####
              Pi:
              OK.... Let me ask.... according to Lisle:

              1) How long would it take a signal from a radio transmitter on Earth to reach a receiver on the moon?
              2) How long would it take a signal from a radio transmitter on the moon to reach a receiver on Earth?




              David:
              The reason the GPS idea is valid is because it involves two INCOMING signals at two difference distances from the same source.
              #####
              Pi:
              Actually, GPS can't get a position without 3 or an altitude without 4. Even my first GPS normally tracked 6-8.



              David:
              Had it involved an OUTGOING and an INCOMING signal, it would be like the astronaut example, and it would be invalid to rebut Lisle.
              ######
              Pi:
              There is still that paradox...But in my example, we are dealing with two separate and independent signals from distinct sources. There is no reason in Lisle's model either signal would NOT travel from SOURCE to its observer instantly.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • PIASAN@aol.com
              DW here, - - - - previous - - - - ... David: I think about 3 seconds. ####### Pi: Why? It s traveling TOWARD that astronaut on the moon (ie: to him, it s an
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 1, 2011
                DW here,
                - - - - previous - - - -
                >>1) How long would it take a signal from a radio transmitter on Earth to reach a receiver on the moon? >>
                David:
                I think about 3 seconds.
                #######
                Pi:
                Why? It's traveling TOWARD that astronaut on the moon (ie: to him, it's an INCOMING signal). According to Lisle, an incoming signal is instant. Therefore, an astronaut on the moon should receive the INCOMING signal that is traveling TOWARD him instantly.>>
                - - - - end previous - - - -

                David:
                The claim made by Lisle is that the SOL is different with respect to a light beam depending on whether it is incoming or outgoing...and that two different positions (at either end of the beam) will measure the speed differently.
                ####
                Pi:
                Right. And according to Lisle's claim, the astronaut on the moon sees an INCOMING beam which will reach him instantly. You haven't shown otherwise.



                David:
                That is "odd" to the common man's common sense, but it is not any different than other odd things which are part of "relativity." Apparently there were two "conventions" one could choose about SOL...either that it was variable based on velocity, or position. The "Einstein convention" said velocity, but even Einstein said that it was just a matter of choice or "stipulation."
                #####
                Pi:
                We have shown Einstein's "convention" works. Lisle's does not.



                - - - - previous - - -
                >>Pi:
                Soon as you explain why the signal requires three seconds in (1) above. Under Lisle's model, this is an INCOMING signal that is coming TOWARD the lunar astronaut .... which Lisle says is instant.

                I'll point it out again.... to the lunar astronaut, a signal from Ground Control is INCOMING because it is traveling TOWARD him and, according to Lisle, it will reach that astronaut instantly. Then, to Ground Control, the signal from the astronaut is an INCOMING signal that is traveling TOWARD Ground Control and it too should reach Ground Control instantly.>>
                - - - - end previous - - - -


                David:
                You simply are denying that SOL could be relative to one's position.
                ######
                Pi:
                No I'm not. I've said all along that in Lisle's model, the astronaut on the moon should see the INCOMING signal coming TOWARD him instantly while Ground Control would think the OUTGOING signal traveling AWAY from them will appear to take 3 seconds to reach the moon. I've also repeatedly pointed out this paradox in Lisle's model.



                David:
                The scientists who have studied this issue seem to say that the evidence fits either view...and it is just a stipulation as to which "convention" you will choose.
                #####
                Pi:
                One can "stipulate" whatever one likes. That doesn't make it right. Even Lisle points that out.



                David:
                It seems that you just are refusing to admit to the conundrum...which even Einstein agreed was real.
                #######
                Pi:
                How many times have I pointed out the paradox created by Lisle's model? If that doesn't "admit to the conundrum," what does?



                David:
                You should stop insisting your "astronaut signals" idea is valid to refute Lisle's claim...because it isn't...and stick to the GPS idea.
                #####
                Pi:
                Again, for the astronaut on the moon, how long will it take an INCOMING signal coming TOWARD him from Ground Control to reach him.... according to Lisle? Can you reconcile your earlier claim of 3 seconds with Lisle's model? Which of us is "refusing to admit to the conundrum?"


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • PIASAN@aol.com
                OK.... got a little time, so maybe I can finish this one and get it out. DW here, ... Lisle s whole point is that all of our measurements of light rely on a
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 11, 2011
                  OK.... got a little time, so maybe I can finish this one and get it out.

                  DW here,

                  >>>Pi (previous):
                  Lisle's whole point is that all of our measurements of light rely on a "mirror" method. Because of that we can't tell the difference between the standard approach and his.

                  He then goes on to discuss why his method can't be tested using a pulse transmitted from one station to another. Lisle spends a lot of time discussing why he can't synchronize clocks to test his method. For example moving clocks changes their time. Forget that you can move a station 30 km at 30 km/hr and the time shift is less than 1e-13 second or so. Light would need 1e-5 seconds to travel that distance. The impact of moving the clock would be something like a hundredth of a millionth of the time period we're looking at. In other words, his excuses for not testing his model are trivial..... and Lisle should know it.>>
                  - - - - end previous - - -


                  David:
                  Apparently Einstein didn't know it...and didn't see it as a trivial point. Nor did others (Sarker and
                  Stachel 1999; W.C. Salmon; J. A. Winnie...cited in L's article) who also considered this question. And apparently you neglected to read (or comprehend) the reasoning Lisle gave for why slowly transporting clocks won't solve the problem. Your "slow clock transport" idea was tossed aside by others more qualified than you to evaluate it.
                  ########
                  Pi:
                  I both read it and understood it. They are speaking of an exact synchronization. I'm pointing out we can get "close enough" to find out if Lisle or the standard model more accurately represents reality. Notice, I said the time variation by moving the clocks is a hundredth of a millionth of the interval we expect to see if the standard model is correct. You may think that's a big deal, but it's really insignificant for purposes of comparing Lisle's claims to the standard model.



                  David quotes:
                  http://www.answersingenesis.org/contents/379/arj/v3/anisotropic_synchrony_convention.pdf

                  Slow Clock Transport
                  - - - snip - - -
                  If we repeated this experiment but moved clock B much
                  more slowly, we would find that it would be much
                  closer to synchronization with clock A, though still
                  not exactly.
                  #####
                  Pi comments:
                  Key words: "not EXACTLY." We don't need exact snychronization. Just close enough that we can tell if Lisle's explanation that light travels instantly toward an observer is more accuate than the standard model. I think synchronization within 99.9999% is close enough for a practical test. Apparently you (and Lisle) do not.




                  David quotes:
                  - - - snip - - -
                  The amount
                  by which clock B becomes desynchronized as it gains
                  distance from A can be computed, **but only if the oneway
                  speed of light is known in advance.**

                  In all cases, the one-way speed of light **must first
                  be stipulated**
                  #######
                  Pi:
                  Fine. Lets stipulate the speed of light and evaluate the situation with Lisle's model and the standard model. There are three possibilities to consider: the standard model; infinite "c"; and "c" equal to half the accepted value. The equation is t= 1/sqrt(1- (v^2/c^2))

                  Setting c = infinity (as in Lisle's model) then we get 1/sqrt (1) which equals 1. There would be no time variation in a clock toward an observer. (It is worth note this is NOT what we observe.)

                  Setting c = 300,000,000 m/sec (the standard value), and v = 8.33 m/sec (30 km/hr) as I did above, we get t= 1 (to at least 20 decimal places). Since the best atomic clocks are only capable of keeping time to +/- 2 or 3 parts to 14 decimal places, the error is insignificant. (It's less than a millionth of the smallest time interval we can measure.)

                  Finally, setting c = 150,000,000 m/sec (half the standard value as in Lisle's model) and v= 8.33 m/sec we get t = 0.999999999999998. A variation of only 2 in the 15th decimal place. This is still about 10x smaller than our best atomic clocks can measure..

                  In other words, for all PRACTICAL purposes, the time distortion resulting from moving the clock is not meaningful and we CAN perform a valid test of Lisle's claims.... even if we move one of the clocks. This is especially true since the travel time of a pulse from one clock to another 30 km distant is 0.00001 sec. Since the worst case error induced by moving the clock is less than a millionth of a percent of the time intervel, it is insignificant.

                  As I said, Lisle's excuses for not testing his model are trivial.




                  David quotes:
                  - - - snip - - -
                  **Einstein himself noted that attempts to measure
                  the one-way speed of light are inherently circular.** In
                  discussing the simultaneity of two bolts of lightning
                  at A and B, as perceived by a person standing exactly
                  in between them at M, he says,
                  . . . if only I knew that the light by means of which the
                  observer at M perceives the lightning flashes travels
                  along the length A → M with the same velocity as along
                  the length B → M. But an examination would only be
                  possible if we already had at our disposal the means
                  of measuring time. It would thus appear as though we
                  were moving here in a logical circle. (Einstein 1961,
                  pp. 22–23).
                  ######
                  Pi:
                  We have, "at our disposal the means of measuring time." that was not available in Einstein's time. Oh yeah.... a 1961 quote from Einstein? He died in 1955.




                  David quotes:
                  Einstein rightly concludes that the one-way speed
                  of light is not an empirical quantity of nature, but a
                  choice of man. He states,
                  That light requires the same time to traverse the
                  path A → M as for the path B → M is in reality neither
                  a supposition nor a hypothesis about the physical
                  nature of light, but a **stipulation** which I can make
                  of my own freewill in order to arrive at a definition of
                  simultaneity (Einstein 1961, p. 23)
                  ######
                  Pi:
                  That it is a "stipulation" only means it's true by definition. It doesn't mean the "stipulation" reflects reality. Why not give a reason (besides Biblical apologetics) we should AGAIN discard Occam's Razor in favor or the more complex explanation offered by Lisle?




                  David (quoting Lisle):
                  This conclusion is quite profound. Since we cannot
                  (even in principle) ever measure the one-way speed
                  of light, Einstein concludes that the one-way speed of
                  light is not actually a property of nature, but a choice
                  of man. Before Einstein, we might have assumed that
                  the one-way speed of light (and thus, the corresponding
                  synchrony convention) is a property of the universe—
                  one that we are not clever enough to measure. But
                  according to Einstein, the fact that we can never
                  test a synchrony convention shows us something
                  fundamental about the universe. Namely, it tells us
                  that synchrony conventions are not a property of the
                  universe, but are instead a system of measurement
                  **invented by man.** According to the conventionality
                  thesis, no experiment will ever be able to establish
                  one synchrony convention over another, because
                  synchronization systems are a human invention
                  by which we measure other things—much like the
                  metric system.
                  ######
                  Pi:
                  In other words, Lisle is saying: "I have a 'convention' and it's right because I say it's right."



                  - - - previously - - -
                  Pi>>It took me only a few seconds to come up with a solution to the synchronization issue. Simply place a third station "C" halfway between stations "A" and "B." Send a pulse from C to A and B. Under either the generally accepted model and Lisle's proposal the pulse would reach both A and B at the same time and their clocks would be synchronized. It would then be a simple matter to send a pulse from either station to the other and test Lisle's proposal. >>
                  David:
                  I guess you are smarter than Lisle (a PhD in physics) and all the other scientists who have gnawed on this question...INCLUDING EINSTEIN. Is it that you are SMARTER (and have an answer) or DUMBER (because you cannot grasp that there indeed is a persistent conundrum)?

                  ######
                  Pi:
                  I guess you are smarter than David Bowman, PhD physics too. After all, you didn't hesitate to claim he was wrong and, so far as I know, you have never taken a physics class in your life. On the other hand, I have studied physics and done the labs and have the transcripts to prove it.

                  Maybe it would be better if you were to show why my proposal wouldn't work. Since the pulse from the center station is travelling outward toward the other two statiions, it should reach each of them instantly and their clocks should be synchronized (in either model). (Something Lisle says can't be done.) We can then send a pulse at a predetermined time from either end station to the other. One of those pulses should arrive instantly.
                  #####



                  David:
                  Maybe if you had taken more than a few seconds you might have grasped what you failed to...and avoided the embarrassment brought on by your arrogant ignorance...or ignorant arrogance, if you prefer.
                  #####
                  Pi:
                  Coming from you, that's hilarious.



                  David:
                  Although the two "conventions" for measuring lightspeed are "stipulated" and therefore neither is right or wrong due to that stipulation, near the end of the article Lisle cites POSITIVE evidence in support of instant incoming lightspeed, because objects in the farthest parts of the universe show the same signs of age/youth as those nearby...including blue stars (which last only about 1 million years...with no good explanations for how they form continuously) and spiral galaxies. Why should very early spiral galaxies at the edge of the U look the same as nearby ones? Do you have an answer for that Pi?...or would that be another one of those "uninteresting" questions for you?
                  #######
                  Pi:
                  No. I have another question. Since we know about many of those "very early spiral galaxies" as the result of 3 or 4 photons from the entire galaxy reaching the Hubble in a time exposure of a million seconds, how could they tell what the population of blue stars in those galaxies was at the time the light left them?

                  Oh yeah.... it is my hypothesis that spiral galaxies are comparitively new and over time will be disrupted in collisions with other galaxies and become irregular or eliptical galaxies. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that the stars in eliptical galaxies tend to be much older and the galaxies much redder than the spiral galaxies.


                  #####



                  Pi continues:
                  From Lisle:
                  If we select ASC, then we have declared that light is essentially infinitely fast when moving directly toward the observer, and ½c when moving directly away.

                  Pi asks:
                  Since the signal from ground control is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD the astronaut on the moon, why will that signal not reach him instantly? Since the signal from the astronaut on the moon is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD ground control on Earth, and it is completely independent of the incoming signal, why will it not reach ground control instantly?



                  From Lisle:
                  If we were to repeat the experiment, this time synchronizing our clocks by ASC, then we would find that the speed of light is different in different directions—confirming (but not proving) our starting presupposition.

                  Pi asks:
                  Why does my described method not synchronize the clocks by ASC? The signal from the center station is travelling DIRECTLY TOWARD each of the other stations and, according to Lisle, should reach them instantly. That should synchronize their clocks.













                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Todd Greene
                  Since the signal from ground control is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD the astronaut on the moon, why will that signal not reach him instantly? Since the signal from
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 11, 2011
                    "Since the signal from ground control is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD the astronaut on the moon, why will that signal not reach him instantly? Since the signal from the astronaut on the moon is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD ground control on Earth, and it is completely independent of the incoming signal, why will it not reach ground control instantly?"

                    Same thing with, say, the rovers on Mars (well, one rover now, since apparently the Spirit has died), where the discrepancy would be on the order of SEVERAL MINUTES. (The rovers have their own internal clocks, and maintain timestamped information, which is reported back to operators on earth.) NASA, of course, has never observed any such discrepancy.

                    Imagine a NASA operator reading a rover's log and going, "Oh, that's very strange, the rover is receiving our signal at the very same time that we sent it", or "Hmmm... This is very odd, we are receiving the rover's communication at the very same time that it sends the information."

                    Such an obvious observation of the speed of light being instant in a direction would have been noticed A LONG TIME AGO. Yet again, we have a young earth creationist proposing some lamebrained scheme (trying to prop up his belief in his religious doctrine) based on totally ignoring what we already know.

                    Typical.

                    - Todd Greene


                    --- In Maury_and_Baty, PIASAN@... wrote (post #22972):
                    > OK.... got a little time, so maybe I can finish this one and get it out.
                    >
                    > DW here,
                    >
                    > >>>Pi (previous):
                    > Lisle's whole point is that all of our measurements of light rely on a "mirror" method. Because of that we can't tell the difference between the standard approach and his.
                    >
                    > He then goes on to discuss why his method can't be tested using a pulse transmitted from one station to another. Lisle spends a lot of time discussing why he can't synchronize clocks to test his method. For example moving clocks changes their time. Forget that you can move a station 30 km at 30 km/hr and the time shift is less than 1e-13 second or so. Light would need 1e-5 seconds to travel that distance. The impact of moving the clock would be something like a hundredth of a millionth of the time period we're looking at. In other words, his excuses for not testing his model are trivial..... and Lisle should know it.>>
                    > - - - - end previous - - -
                    >
                    >
                    > David:
                    > Apparently Einstein didn't know it...and didn't see it as a trivial point. Nor did others (Sarker and
                    > Stachel 1999; W.C. Salmon; J. A. Winnie...cited in L's article) who also considered this question. And apparently you neglected to read (or comprehend) the reasoning Lisle gave for why slowly transporting clocks won't solve the problem. Your "slow clock transport" idea was tossed aside by others more qualified than you to evaluate it.
                    > ########
                    > Pi:
                    > I both read it and understood it. They are speaking of an exact synchronization. I'm pointing out we can get "close enough" to find out if Lisle or the standard model more accurately represents reality. Notice, I said the time variation by moving the clocks is a hundredth of a millionth of the interval we expect to see if the standard model is correct. You may think that's a big deal, but it's really insignificant for purposes of comparing Lisle's claims to the standard model.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David quotes:
                    > http://www.answersingenesis.org/contents/379/arj/v3/anisotropic_synchrony_convention.pdf
                    >
                    > Slow Clock Transport
                    > - - - snip - - -
                    > If we repeated this experiment but moved clock B much
                    > more slowly, we would find that it would be much
                    > closer to synchronization with clock A, though still
                    > not exactly.
                    > #####
                    > Pi comments:
                    > Key words: "not EXACTLY." We don't need exact snychronization. Just close enough that we can tell if Lisle's explanation that light travels instantly toward an observer is more accuate than the standard model. I think synchronization within 99.9999% is close enough for a practical test. Apparently you (and Lisle) do not.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David quotes:
                    > - - - snip - - -
                    > The amount
                    > by which clock B becomes desynchronized as it gains
                    > distance from A can be computed, **but only if the oneway
                    > speed of light is known in advance.**
                    >
                    > In all cases, the one-way speed of light **must first
                    > be stipulated**
                    > #######
                    > Pi:
                    > Fine. Lets stipulate the speed of light and evaluate the situation with Lisle's model and the standard model. There are three possibilities to consider: the standard model; infinite "c"; and "c" equal to half the accepted value. The equation is t= 1/sqrt(1- (v^2/c^2))
                    >
                    > Setting c = infinity (as in Lisle's model) then we get 1/sqrt (1) which equals 1. There would be no time variation in a clock toward an observer. (It is worth note this is NOT what we observe.)
                    >
                    > Setting c = 300,000,000 m/sec (the standard value), and v = 8.33 m/sec (30 km/hr) as I did above, we get t= 1 (to at least 20 decimal places). Since the best atomic clocks are only capable of keeping time to +/- 2 or 3 parts to 14 decimal places, the error is insignificant. (It's less than a millionth of the smallest time interval we can measure.)
                    >
                    > Finally, setting c = 150,000,000 m/sec (half the standard value as in Lisle's model) and v= 8.33 m/sec we get t = 0.999999999999998. A variation of only 2 in the 15th decimal place. This is still about 10x smaller than our best atomic clocks can measure..
                    >
                    > In other words, for all PRACTICAL purposes, the time distortion resulting from moving the clock is not meaningful and we CAN perform a valid test of Lisle's claims.... even if we move one of the clocks. This is especially true since the travel time of a pulse from one clock to another 30 km distant is 0.00001 sec. Since the worst case error induced by moving the clock is less than a millionth of a percent of the time intervel, it is insignificant.
                    >
                    > As I said, Lisle's excuses for not testing his model are trivial.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David quotes:
                    > - - - snip - - -
                    > **Einstein himself noted that attempts to measure
                    > the one-way speed of light are inherently circular.** In
                    > discussing the simultaneity of two bolts of lightning
                    > at A and B, as perceived by a person standing exactly
                    > in between them at M, he says,
                    > . . . if only I knew that the light by means of which the
                    > observer at M perceives the lightning flashes travels
                    > along the length A â†' M with the same velocity as along
                    > the length B â†' M. But an examination would only be
                    > possible if we already had at our disposal the means
                    > of measuring time. It would thus appear as though we
                    > were moving here in a logical circle. (Einstein 1961,
                    > pp. 22â€"23).
                    > ######
                    > Pi:
                    > We have, "at our disposal the means of measuring time." that was not available in Einstein's time. Oh yeah.... a 1961 quote from Einstein? He died in 1955.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David quotes:
                    > Einstein rightly concludes that the one-way speed
                    > of light is not an empirical quantity of nature, but a
                    > choice of man. He states,
                    > That light requires the same time to traverse the
                    > path A â†' M as for the path B â†' M is in reality neither
                    > a supposition nor a hypothesis about the physical
                    > nature of light, but a **stipulation** which I can make
                    > of my own freewill in order to arrive at a definition of
                    > simultaneity (Einstein 1961, p. 23)
                    > ######
                    > Pi:
                    > That it is a "stipulation" only means it's true by definition. It doesn't mean the "stipulation" reflects reality. Why not give a reason (besides Biblical apologetics) we should AGAIN discard Occam's Razor in favor or the more complex explanation offered by Lisle?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David (quoting Lisle):
                    > This conclusion is quite profound. Since we cannot
                    > (even in principle) ever measure the one-way speed
                    > of light, Einstein concludes that the one-way speed of
                    > light is not actually a property of nature, but a choice
                    > of man. Before Einstein, we might have assumed that
                    > the one-way speed of light (and thus, the corresponding
                    > synchrony convention) is a property of the universeâ€"
                    > one that we are not clever enough to measure. But
                    > according to Einstein, the fact that we can never
                    > test a synchrony convention shows us something
                    > fundamental about the universe. Namely, it tells us
                    > that synchrony conventions are not a property of the
                    > universe, but are instead a system of measurement
                    > **invented by man.** According to the conventionality
                    > thesis, no experiment will ever be able to establish
                    > one synchrony convention over another, because
                    > synchronization systems are a human invention
                    > by which we measure other thingsâ€"much like the
                    > metric system.
                    > ######
                    > Pi:
                    > In other words, Lisle is saying: "I have a 'convention' and it's right because I say it's right."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > - - - previously - - -
                    > Pi>>It took me only a few seconds to come up with a solution to the synchronization issue. Simply place a third station "C" halfway between stations "A" and "B." Send a pulse from C to A and B. Under either the generally accepted model and Lisle's proposal the pulse would reach both A and B at the same time and their clocks would be synchronized. It would then be a simple matter to send a pulse from either station to the other and test Lisle's proposal. >>
                    > David:
                    > I guess you are smarter than Lisle (a PhD in physics) and all the other scientists who have gnawed on this question...INCLUDING EINSTEIN. Is it that you are SMARTER (and have an answer) or DUMBER (because you cannot grasp that there indeed is a persistent conundrum)?
                    >
                    > ######
                    > Pi:
                    > I guess you are smarter than David Bowman, PhD physics too. After all, you didn't hesitate to claim he was wrong and, so far as I know, you have never taken a physics class in your life. On the other hand, I have studied physics and done the labs and have the transcripts to prove it.
                    >
                    > Maybe it would be better if you were to show why my proposal wouldn't work. Since the pulse from the center station is travelling outward toward the other two statiions, it should reach each of them instantly and their clocks should be synchronized (in either model). (Something Lisle says can't be done.) We can then send a pulse at a predetermined time from either end station to the other. One of those pulses should arrive instantly.
                    > #####
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David:
                    > Maybe if you had taken more than a few seconds you might have grasped what you failed to...and avoided the embarrassment brought on by your arrogant ignorance...or ignorant arrogance, if you prefer.
                    > #####
                    > Pi:
                    > Coming from you, that's hilarious.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David:
                    > Although the two "conventions" for measuring lightspeed are "stipulated" and therefore neither is right or wrong due to that stipulation, near the end of the article Lisle cites POSITIVE evidence in support of instant incoming lightspeed, because objects in the farthest parts of the universe show the same signs of age/youth as those nearby...including blue stars (which last only about 1 million years...with no good explanations for how they form continuously) and spiral galaxies. Why should very early spiral galaxies at the edge of the U look the same as nearby ones? Do you have an answer for that Pi?...or would that be another one of those "uninteresting" questions for you?
                    > #######
                    > Pi:
                    > No. I have another question. Since we know about many of those "very early spiral galaxies" as the result of 3 or 4 photons from the entire galaxy reaching the Hubble in a time exposure of a million seconds, how could they tell what the population of blue stars in those galaxies was at the time the light left them?
                    >
                    > Oh yeah.... it is my hypothesis that spiral galaxies are comparitively new and over time will be disrupted in collisions with other galaxies and become irregular or eliptical galaxies. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that the stars in eliptical galaxies tend to be much older and the galaxies much redder than the spiral galaxies.
                    >
                    >
                    > #####
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Pi continues:
                    > From Lisle:
                    > If we select ASC, then we have declared that light is essentially infinitely fast when moving directly toward the observer, and ½c when moving directly away.
                    >
                    > Pi asks:
                    > Since the signal from ground control is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD the astronaut on the moon, why will that signal not reach him instantly? Since the signal from the astronaut on the moon is sent DIRECTLY TOWARD ground control on Earth, and it is completely independent of the incoming signal, why will it not reach ground control instantly?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From Lisle:
                    > If we were to repeat the experiment, this time synchronizing our clocks by ASC, then we would find that the speed of light is different in different directionsâ€"confirming (but not proving) our starting presupposition.
                    >
                    > Pi asks:
                    > Why does my described method not synchronize the clocks by ASC? The signal from the center station is travelling DIRECTLY TOWARD each of the other stations and, according to Lisle, should reach them instantly. That should synchronize their clocks.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • rlbaty50
                    ... That kinda sounds like it s analogous to that idea you often put forth regarding how long the road is, and it sounds kinda like what Pi was talking about.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 11, 2011
                      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Greene" <greeneto@...> wrote:

                      > Such an obvious observation of the
                      > speed of light being instant in a
                      > direction would have been noticed
                      > A LONG TIME AGO.
                      >
                      > Yet again, we have a young earth
                      > creationist proposing some lamebrained
                      > scheme (trying to prop up his belief
                      > in his religious doctrine) based on
                      > totally ignoring what we already know.

                      That kinda sounds like it's analogous to that idea you often put forth regarding how long the road is, and it sounds kinda like what Pi was talking about.

                      That is, it is not necessary to measure with ungetoverable accuracy the one-way speed of light in order to figure out that it is NOT instantaneous and, given the stipulated distances to the stars and their origin as to the light we observe coming from those specks in the night sky, such light has been traveling for more than a few thousand years.

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty
                    • PIASAN@aol.com
                      David: Then you just gave away the store and agreed that Lisle could be right. You might say that Lisle COULD be wrong, but you cannot say he IS wrong, based
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 15, 2011
                        David:
                        Then you just gave away the store and agreed that Lisle could be right. You might say that Lisle COULD be wrong, but you cannot say he IS wrong, based on any observational data. For all you know he is right.
                        ######
                        Pi:
                        No. I CAN say Lisle IS wrong based on the fact that GPS works. Go ahead and explain how GPS works using Lisle's model in which the signal coming FROM the GPS satellite TO the ground is instant. Keep in mind GPS relies on a time delay in that signal to make its position calculation.



                        David:
                        Tell me...how can you know that the reason a slow-moved clock (being synchronized) has very little change in time FOR ITS ROUND TRIP is NOT due to it having 100% of that change (however little it may be) happening on the way OUT and 0% of the change happening on the way BACK? YOU CAN'T. Moving the clock slowly and having a tiny amount of change solves NOTHING for you.
                        #####
                        Pi:
                        It does when the change is a millionth of a percent of the predicted transit time. Keep in mind, I don't need to know the EXACT one way travel time if I can show it isn't zero.

                        Borrowing from an expression you seem to like lately..... I guess you're just too dense to understand that.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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