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Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement

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  • Jerry McDonald
    My mother passed at the age of 89 last month. I am 56. As I was raised she was still my mother and she still had authority over me. If she told me to do
    Message 1 of 46 , Nov 1, 2010
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      My mother passed at the age of 89 last month. I am 56. As I was raised she was
      still my mother and she still had authority over me. If she told me to do
      something I had no right to rebel against her. If I did something wrong she had
      every right to correct me. If I got out of line scripturally she had every
      right to show me in the scriptures where I was wrong. She was still my mother
      no matter how old I was, and she still had authority over me no matter how old I
      was. Maybe that is the difference between you and me. Maybe you could tell
      your mother that she had no authority to teach you anything or tell you
      anything, but I never could. My dad raised me to respect my mother's authority
      regardless of where I was or how old I was, and he preached the gospel for 70
      years. Solomon wrote "My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not
      the LAW of thy mother" (Pro 6:20). I carried out my mother's commandments right
      up to her very last breath. When she told me that it was time to let her go and
      quit trying to save her life, as hard as it was for me (being her power of
      attorney) to do that, I carried out her wishes. Why? Because she was my mother
      and she told me to.

      My son has been raised to be the same way. When his mother tells him something
      he is to listen. When she teaches him something he is to listen. He has no
      right to tell her "I don't have to listen to you because I am 25 years old." I
      would be on him like ugly on an ape if he did that. There have been times that
      I have been hospitalized and she has had to help him with his homework. Did she
      sin? No! Did she teach (didasko) him? Yes! Does she have authority over him?
      Yes! If you want your sons to tell their mother that she has no authority over
      them, that's your business, but mine had better NEVER tell his mother such a
      thing


      In Christ Jesus
      Jerry D. McDonald




      ________________________________
      From: Frank Williams <thewilliams1828@...>
      To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 10:49:32 AM
      Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement


      Jerry,

      The person, in this case Marion Fox, you are going to debate has the
      right to write his own affirmative!

      It appears to me that you are using the word "teach" in more than one
      way. My wife and I talk Bible all the time, but she is not violating 1
      Tim. 2:12 as the teaching taking place is not what Paul does not allow.
      You are not the first person who seems to have trouble with the word
      Paul uses. It is not "teach" in a generic use of the word, but a
      authoritative teaching that Paul is addressing. Just when is your son
      not under his mother's authority? If not twenty-five, maybe at the age
      of fifty? Is he a "man," as Paul uses that word in 1 Tim. 2:12? When
      he leaves this mother and father, takes a wife, is he still under his
      mother's authority?? Or, maybe he is not a man as Paul used the word
      "man" in 1 Tim. 2:12. I mean no unkindness toward your son! Just
      trying to determine what authority his mother has over him after he an
      adult male.

      Just a reminder, when writing, we need to identify by name the person we
      are writing and we need to sign off with our name. Sometimes I get lost
      without these.

      Yours, Frank R. Williams

      On 10/31/2010 10:30 PM, Jerry McDonald wrote:
      >
      > I will agree to deny this proposition: "The Scriptures forbid a woman to
      > authoritatively teach (didaskein) the Scriptures to a man in every
      > situation."
      >
      > In Christ Jesus
      > Jerry D. McDonald
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>
      > To: Jerry McDonald <jerry@...
      > <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>; Jerry McDonald <jerry@...
      > <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>; Frank and Martie Williams
      > <thewilliams1828@... <mailto:thewilliams1828%40sbcglobal.net>>
      > Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 8:10:47 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Jerry,
      >
      > >From what you wrote below, you should deny the following proposition:
      > "The
      > Scriptures forbid a woman to authoritatively teach (didaskein) the
      > Scriptures to
      > a man."
      >
      > Affirm: Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Deny: Jerry D. McDonald
      >
      > What do you say?
      >
      > Yours in His service,
      >
      > Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Five F Publishing Company: http://www.fivefpublishing.com/
      >
      > Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies: http://www.okcsbs.com/
      >
      > Blog: http://okcsbs.com/blog/
      >
      > One Heart Journal: http://www.okcsbs.com/oneheart.html
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Jerry McDonald <jerry@...
      > <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > To: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>; MAEFT
      > <MAEFT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MAEFT%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 9:21:48 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > I don't see why you have a problem with the words "in every
      > situation"? The
      > answer to your question would be "e: A woman is not to teach over the
      > man nor
      > usurp authority over him. She is to have a quiet and meek spirit (the
      > meaning
      > of silence). This does not mean that she cannot didaskien a man.
      > However, my
      > wife has every right to teach the scriptures to my 25 year old
      > Christian son.
      > She has every right to tell him when he is in violation of the
      > scriptures and
      > point those scriptures out to him. To say that she doesn't is to say
      > that she
      > has no authority over him as his mother. You want to use the word
      > "place," but
      > that word doesn't get down to the heart of the issue. The word
      > "situation"
      > does. If I step out of line, my wife has every right as my helper that
      > is fit
      > for me to straighten me back up even if she has to go to the word of
      > God to do
      > it. That doesn't make her the head of the house, but it makes her my
      > companion
      > in life who is trying to help me get to heaven. Your view of 1 Tim.
      > 2:11,12 is
      > very ridged and would leave that out, and when it comes to usurping man's
      > authority it would forbid a woman teaching high school chemistry or
      > any other
      > subject to a Christian teenage boy. You don't seem to understand the
      > implications of your doctrine Marion.
      >
      > In Christ Jesus
      > Jerry D. McDonald
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>
      > To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:OneheartinChrist%40yahoogroups.com>; Jerry McDonald
      > <jerry@... <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>;
      > Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>; Frank and Martie Williams
      > <thewilliams1828@...
      > <mailto:thewilliams1828%40sbcglobal.net>>; Benjamin J. Williams
      > <benjamin.j.williams@... <mailto:benjamin.j.williams%40gmail.com>>
      > Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 6:13:58 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Jerry,
      >
      > Here is my revised proposition: Resolved: "The Scriptures forbid a
      > woman to
      > authoritatively teach the Scriptures to a man in every place."
      >
      > I will make the following stipulations to go with the proposition:
      >
      > 1-This applies to a woman authoritatively teaching her adult male family
      > members.
      >
      > 2-This applies to a woman authoritatively teaching a man when she
      > grades his
      > Bible correspondence course.
      >
      > 3-This applies to a woman authoritatively teaching a man in a home
      > Bible study.
      >
      > 4-This does not apply to teaching secular matters such as mathematics,
      > chemistry, history, etc.
      >
      > Now, I must ask you to answer one question for me; with regard to the
      > teaching
      > of 1 Tim. 2:12 it is:
      >
      > a-Limited to authoritative teaching.
      >
      > b-Limited to non-authoritative teaching.
      >
      > c-Includes all kinds of teaching.
      >
      > d-It does not apply to the 21st century church.
      >
      > e-Some other explanation (please elaborate).
      >
      > Choose one of these answers.
      >
      > Yours in His service,
      >
      > Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Five F Publishing Company: http://www.fivefpublishing.com/
      >
      > Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies: http://www.okcsbs.com/
      >
      > Blog: http://okcsbs.com/blog/
      >
      > One Heart Journal: http://www.okcsbs.com/oneheart.html
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>
      > To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:OneheartinChrist%40yahoogroups.com>; Jerry McDonald
      > <jerry@... <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>;
      > Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>; Frank and Martie Williams
      > <thewilliams1828@...
      > <mailto:thewilliams1828%40sbcglobal.net>>; Benjamin J. Williams
      > <benjamin.j.williams@... <mailto:benjamin.j.williams%40gmail.com>>
      > Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 8:14:40 AM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Jerry,
      >
      > Here is my new proposition:
      >
      > Resolved: "The Scriptures forbid a woman to authoritatively teach a
      > man in every
      >
      > place."
      >
      > Affirm: Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Deny: Jerry D. McDonald
      >
      > Are you willing to sign this one?
      >
      > Yours in His service,
      >
      > Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Five F Publishing Company: http://www.fivefpublishing.com
      >
      > Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies: http://www.okcsbs.com
      >
      > Blog: http://okcsbs.com/blog/
      >
      > One Heart Journal: http://www.okcsbs.com/oneheart.html
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Jerry McDonald <jerry@...
      > <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > To: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>; MAEFT
      > <MAEFT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MAEFT%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 7:31:21 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > It is the second one. That is why I put "in every situation."
      >
      > In Christ Jesus
      > Jerry D. McDonald
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>
      > To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:OneheartinChrist%40yahoogroups.com>; Jerry McDonald
      > <jerry@... <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:15:48 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Jerry,
      >
      > I object to the expression "in every situation" because it is far too
      > broad. It
      > looks like I am saying that a woman may not under any situation teach
      > a man. A
      > woman may teach a man in a non-authoritative way. Please answer a
      > couple of
      > questions and we might get pass this impasse.
      >
      > First, is it the fact that I claim that the teaching that is forbidden is
      > authoritative type teaching that causes you to object to what I teach?
      >
      > Second, or is it that fact that I apply it to all situations where
      > authoritative
      >
      > type teaching is involved (that is that I do not limit the teaching to
      > the
      > assembly and/or perhaps Bible classes)?
      >
      > I am prepared to reword my affirmative to defend either or both of
      > these points.
      >
      > Let me know.
      >
      > Yours in His service,
      >
      > Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Five F Publishing Company: http://www.fivefpublishing.com/
      >
      > Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies: http://www.okcsbs.com/
      >
      > Blog: http://okcsbs.com/blog/
      >
      > One Heart Journal: http://www.okcsbs.com/oneheart.html
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Jerry McDonald <jerry@...
      > <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:OneheartinChrist%40yahoogroups.com>; MAEFT
      > <MAEFT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MAEFT%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 6:34:12 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Marion, your position is that 1 Tim. 2:12 refers to authoritative type
      > teaching
      > (disdaskein) and it refers to all men and all women in every
      > situation. Don't
      > try to weasle out of it.
      >
      > In Christ Jesus
      > Jerry D. McDonald
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Marion Fox <mrfox@... <mailto:mrfox%40prodigy.net>>
      > To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:OneheartinChrist%40yahoogroups.com>; Jerry McDonald
      > <jerry@... <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:22:16 AM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Jerry posted the following, to which I reply (below):
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Jerry McDonald <jerry@...
      > <mailto:jerry%40challenge2.org>>
      > To: OneheartinChrist@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:OneheartinChrist%40yahoogroups.com>; MAEFT
      > <MAEFT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MAEFT%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Cc: Rick Popejoy <biblereflections@...
      > <mailto:biblereflections%40hotmail.com>>
      > Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:52:52 PM
      > Subject: Re: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement
      >
      > Frank, he asked if I would sign that proposition and I said not
      > without the
      > stipulation "in every situation." Now you guys know that this is your
      > position. You want to let Marion off with a generic proposition so I
      > can't pin
      > him down, but that isn't going to happen. However, I do remember when
      > I was
      > offering my propositions I offered the proposition "Resolved: The
      > scriptures
      > teach that the 'Great Commission' is for all generations of Christians
      > and will
      > end only when Christ returns to judge the world.
      >
      > Affirm: Jerry McDonald
      > Deny:"
      >
      > and it wasn't good enough for you back on September 29, 2010 when you
      > wrote
      > this:
      >
      > ...
      >
      > Marion here responding:
      >
      > Jerry, the difference between what we asked of you was that you actually
      > believed what we asked you to affirm. I do not believe what you want
      > me to
      > affirm.
      >
      > I quote Vol. 1 of my book (The Role of Women, Vol. I).
      >
      > When sound preachers say that teaching of men by woman is forbidden (1
      > Tim.
      > 2:12), no person has the right to add the word “all” to their
      > assertion. They do
      >
      > not have the right to say that sound preachers mean: “All teaching of
      > men by
      > women is forbidden.” Sound preachers are only saying: “Some teaching
      > of men by
      > women is forbidden (didaskō type teaching is forbidden).”
      >
      > I also ask you to note the more than 5 dozen times that I define
      > didaskō type
      > teaching as authoritative type teaching in Vols. I & II. (cf. footnote
      > 13, page
      > 15 etc.).
      >
      > I will have a response for later.
      >
      > Yours in His service,
      >
      > Marion R. Fox
      >
      > Five F Publishing Company: http://www.fivefpublishing.com
      >
      > Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies: http://www.okcsbs.com
      >
      > Blog: http://okcsbs.com/blog/
      >
      > One Heart Journal: http://www.okcsbs.com/oneheart.html
      >
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    • Jerry McDonald
      pardon my mistake In Christ Jesus Jerry D. McDonald ________________________________ From: Johnny D. Hinton To: One Heart
      Message 46 of 46 , Nov 2, 2010
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        pardon my mistake

        In Christ Jesus
        Jerry D. McDonald




        ________________________________
        From: Johnny D. Hinton <j_d_hinton@...>
        To: One Heart <oneheartinchrist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 8:21:59 AM
        Subject: RE: [OneheartinChrist] Fw: Proposition and agreement



        Jerry,

        You almost got it right.

        Minors who still live at home and are dependent on their parents are under their
        authority and under God.

        As adults we are under God along side our parents, but no longer under them.

        PS. Scripture says a man is "the head of his wife"; it does not say he is head
        of the house.

        Johnny D. Hinton, Evangelist
        29th & Yale Church of Christ
        2901 South Yale Avenue
        Tulsa, OK 74114-6250

        http://29thandyale.com/
        O: 918 . 744 . 0356 x 202
        C: 405 . 213 . 4608


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