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"No absolute moral standard" = "Jesus was about a LIE"???

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  • Todd Greene
    Terry Benton states, When Todd says there never was any absolute moral standard, then it means JESUS was about a LIE. I d love to see Terry attempt to
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 2 10:01 AM
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      Terry Benton states, "When Todd says there never was any absolute moral standard, then it means JESUS was about a LIE."

      I'd love to see Terry attempt to produce an actual explanation as to how one "MEANS" the other.

      Of course, we know he'll never even attempt to do any such thing, because the rhetoric Terry spouts isn't based on logic or facts, but is merely the irrational spluttering of a fundamentalist who is feeling tweaked by an atheist who has dared to criticize the obvious fallacy of some silly piece of rhetoric he's used as standard filler in his sermons for 40 years.

      Chuckling,
      Todd Greene
    • Terry W. Benton
      Todd Greene says: Terry Benton states, When Todd says there never was any absolute moral standard, then it means JESUS was about a LIE. I d love to see Terry
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 2 2:52 PM
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        Todd Greene says:
        Terry Benton states, "When Todd says there never was any absolute moral
        standard, then it means JESUS was about a LIE."

        I'd love to see Terry attempt to produce an actual explanation as to how one
        "MEANS" the other.

        TB: Did Todd's words pass right over his head without knowing what they meant? If so, it only shows further how his mouth freely spouts things he does not think through. So, I will explain it to him, Robert, and Pi.

        1. Sin is transgression of absolute law.
        2. Because it is real and there is an absolute standard, Jesus came to pay the penalty of actual guilt of it in our behalf.
        3. But, if there is no sin, no breaking of absolute moral law, there was no need for Jesus to do for guilt that cannot exist.
        4. Jesus died for actual violations of actual law.
        5. Therefore, there was/is a standard of absolute moral law that man absolutely violated.
        6. If there is no law, there is no sin, and Jesus died in vain.
        7. If a man, such as Todd Greene, comes along and denies the existence of absolute moral standards, then sin has no basis of existence, and Jesus was a fool.
        8. On the other hand, if there is moral law and sin is real and Jesus did not die in vain, then:

        a) Todd Greene is a fool.
        b) Pi is a fool for letting Todd undermine the very necessity for his Jesus.
        c) Robert Baty is a fool for letting Todd undermine the very necessity for his Jesus.



        TG: Of course, we know he'll never even attempt to do any such thing, because the
        rhetoric Terry spouts isn't based on logic or facts, but is merely the
        irrational spluttering of a fundamentalist who is feeling tweaked by an atheist
        who has dared to criticize the obvious fallacy of some silly piece of rhetoric
        he's used as standard filler in his sermons for 40 years.

        Chuckling,
        Todd Greene

        TB: And here we see Todd Greene's prediction of me failing again, just as his absurd argument did when he said there has never been any such thing as absolute moral standards. Also, we see him undermining the word of God as "silly piece of rhetoric..used as standard filler" in sermons. In other words, he has attacked the very basis of Pi and Robert Baty's faith once again, and he gets to laugh at them while pretending to be laughing at me. What is so stupid about Todd Greene is that he can't see that I cannot be wrong and he cannot be right if there is no absolute moral standard. He should be laughing only at himself for taking such a ridiculous position that there is no standard of morals or any absolute moral standard, and then turn right around and act there is. He talks out one side of his mouth like there is something wrong with LIES and hypocrisy and some kind of standard that allows him to judge such, and then sticks his foot in his foolish mouth and says "there is no absolute standard of morality".

        So, I'm chuckling quite loudly myself,
        Terry W. Benton





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rlbaty60
        ... Another one of those spurious hypotheticals from Terry W. Benton. Terry, is there some mutual interest you now wish to pursue with me in good faith (e.g.,
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 2 3:06 PM
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          --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Terry W. Benton" <terrywbenton@...> wrote, in part:

          > (I)f there is moral law and sin
          > is real and Jesus did not die in
          > vain,

          > then

          > Robert Baty is a fool for letting
          > Todd undermine the very necessity
          > for his Jesus.

          Another one of those spurious hypotheticals from Terry W. Benton.

          Terry, is there some mutual interest you now wish to pursue with me in good faith (e.g., your "Confused" argument and/or my "Goliath of GRAS" argument)?

          We've got lots of unfinished business between us to resolve before considering any new matters.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty
        • Terry
          No, Robert, I m just making a correct observation. If you have unfinished business, you can pick that up with me at GAGdebate. If you are content for Todd to
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 2 3:10 PM
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            No, Robert, I'm just making a correct observation. If you have unfinished business, you can pick that up with me at GAGdebate. If you are content for Todd to undermine your faith, I can laugh with Todd about that.

            Terry W. Benton

            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty60" <rlbaty60@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Terry W. Benton" <terrywbenton@> wrote, in part:
            >
            > > (I)f there is moral law and sin
            > > is real and Jesus did not die in
            > > vain,
            >
            > > then
            >
            > > Robert Baty is a fool for letting
            > > Todd undermine the very necessity
            > > for his Jesus.
            >
            > Another one of those spurious hypotheticals from Terry W. Benton.
            >
            > Terry, is there some mutual interest you now wish to pursue with me in good faith (e.g., your "Confused" argument and/or my "Goliath of GRAS" argument)?
            >
            > We've got lots of unfinished business between us to resolve before considering any new matters.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Robert Baty
            >
          • rlbaty60
            ... Terry, Your tactics appear to have gone unchanged. I am proposing that your hypothetical is false, realizing that you consider it otherwise. Despite your
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 2 3:19 PM
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              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <terrywbenton@...> wrote:

              > No, Robert, I'm just making a
              > correct observation.
              >
              > If you have unfinished business,
              > you can pick that up with me at
              > GAGdebate.
              >
              > If you are content for Todd to
              > undermine your faith, I can
              > laugh with Todd about that.
              >
              > Terry W. Benton
              > http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com

              Terry,

              Your tactics appear to have gone unchanged.

              I am proposing that your hypothetical is false, realizing that you consider it otherwise.

              Despite your efforts otherwise, Terry, we have much in unfinished business we might deal with. If you wish to consider how we might take up those matters, we can discuss the course we might take to pacify your interests in getting up some postings on your list(s) as well as document our efforts here.

              If you are just interested in seeing how much rope I might give you before you hang yourself again...feel free to test me further.

              Feel free to take up your interests with Todd, but I would suggest you will be better off without misrepresenting me in such things.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty


              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Terry" <terrywbenton@...> wrote:

              > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty60" <rlbaty60@> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Terry W. Benton" <terrywbenton@> wrote, in part:
              > >
              > > > (I)f there is moral law and sin
              > > > is real and Jesus did not die in
              > > > vain,
              > >
              > > > then
              > >
              > > > Robert Baty is a fool for letting
              > > > Todd undermine the very necessity
              > > > for his Jesus.
              > >
              > > Another one of those spurious hypotheticals from Terry W. Benton.
              > >
              > > Terry, is there some mutual interest you now wish to pursue with me in good faith (e.g., your "Confused" argument and/or my "Goliath of GRAS" argument)?
              > >
              > > We've got lots of unfinished business between us to resolve before considering any new matters.
              > >
              > > Sincerely,
              > > Robert Baty
              > >
            • Todd Greene
              Well, actually it s nice to see Terry ARTICULATE what he MEANT by the phrase Jesus was about a LIE , and he launched of into a discussion of the
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 2 6:27 PM
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                Well, actually it's nice to see Terry ARTICULATE what he MEANT by the phrase "Jesus was about a LIE", and he launched of into a discussion of the traditionalist Christian theodicy.

                That's what's called "moving the goalposts", which is another tactic fundamentalists love to use.

                Of course, it doesn't justify the idea that the fact that an "absolute moral standard" doesn't exist implies that "Jesus was about a lie", precisely because that would depend on just what it was really that "Jesus was about". (Hint: It wasn't what fundamentalist Christians say it was.)

                And speaking of "absolute moral standard" and "absolute law", we have Exodus 21:15 which states that anyone who hits his father or mother is to executed. Exodus 35:2 states that anyone who does any work on the Sabbath day is to be executed - and this includes anyone who lights a fire in his home in the middle of the winter. There's Leviticus 20:10 which states that those who commit adultery (this includes both people) are to be executed. Deuteronomy 23:2 says, "No one born out of wedlock or any descendant of such a person, even in the tenth generation, may be included among the Lord's people." So notice who it is who doesn't even believe his own words. That's right - that would be Terry Benton. He pretends that he has an "absolute moral standard" in his possession, but the very thing that he points to as being one is manifestly not an "absolute moral standard" in any way, shape, or form.

                Additionally, despite the fact that I already pointed out his OBVIOUS error on this, and thus made his error EXPLICITLY plain for him to see, here he is spouting the error again: He says that me having pointed out that no such thing as an "absolute moral standard" exists means that it is my "position that there is no standard of morals" (and he makes further remarks based on this straw man misrepresentation). Of course, not only did I not say anything of the sort, but I have explicitly pointed out otherwise. This is just another example of the fact that these people are incapable of dealing with what atheists really do say, so instead they choose to tell lies, even doing it blatantly, for the purpose of straw man misrepresentation.

                The "absolute moral standard" argument that fundamentalists love to use in their anti-atheist rhetoric is nothing but an incoherent mishmash of made-up substanceless rhetoric that not only has nothing to do with anything in the real world, but THEY IGNORE THE MORAL LAWS OF THE BIBLE THAT THEY HOLD UP AS BEING THIS ALLEGED "absolute moral standard", thus displaying an additional critical level of incoherency.

                - Todd Greene


                --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Terry W. Benton" <terrywbenton@...> wrote:
                >
                > Todd Greene says:
                > Terry Benton states, "When Todd says there never was any absolute moral
                > standard, then it means JESUS was about a LIE."
                >
                > I'd love to see Terry attempt to produce an actual explanation as to how one
                > "MEANS" the other.
                >
                > TB: Did Todd's words pass right over his head without knowing what they meant? If so, it only shows further how his mouth freely spouts things he does not think through. So, I will explain it to him, Robert, and Pi.
                >
                > 1. Sin is transgression of absolute law.
                > 2. Because it is real and there is an absolute standard, Jesus came to pay the penalty of actual guilt of it in our behalf.
                > 3. But, if there is no sin, no breaking of absolute moral law, there was no need for Jesus to do for guilt that cannot exist.
                > 4. Jesus died for actual violations of actual law.
                > 5. Therefore, there was/is a standard of absolute moral law that man absolutely violated.
                > 6. If there is no law, there is no sin, and Jesus died in vain.
                > 7. If a man, such as Todd Greene, comes along and denies the existence of absolute moral standards, then sin has no basis of existence, and Jesus was a fool.
                > 8. On the other hand, if there is moral law and sin is real and Jesus did not die in vain, then:
                >
                > a) Todd Greene is a fool.
                > b) Pi is a fool for letting Todd undermine the very necessity for his Jesus.
                > c) Robert Baty is a fool for letting Todd undermine the very necessity for his Jesus.
                >
                >
                >
                > TG: Of course, we know he'll never even attempt to do any such thing, because the
                > rhetoric Terry spouts isn't based on logic or facts, but is merely the
                > irrational spluttering of a fundamentalist who is feeling tweaked by an atheist
                > who has dared to criticize the obvious fallacy of some silly piece of rhetoric
                > he's used as standard filler in his sermons for 40 years.
                >
                > Chuckling,
                > Todd Greene
                >
                > TB: And here we see Todd Greene's prediction of me failing again, just as his absurd argument did when he said there has never been any such thing as absolute moral standards. Also, we see him undermining the word of God as "silly piece of rhetoric..used as standard filler" in sermons. In other words, he has attacked the very basis of Pi and Robert Baty's faith once again, and he gets to laugh at them while pretending to be laughing at me. What is so stupid about Todd Greene is that he can't see that I cannot be wrong and he cannot be right if there is no absolute moral standard. He should be laughing only at himself for taking such a ridiculous position that there is no standard of morals or any absolute moral standard, and then turn right around and act there is. He talks out one side of his mouth like there is something wrong with LIES and hypocrisy and some kind of standard that allows him to judge such, and then sticks his foot in his foolish mouth and says "there is no absolute standard of morality".
                >
                > So, I'm chuckling quite loudly myself,
                > Terry W. Benton
              • Todd Greene
                In coCBanned post #24426, Terry Benton writes, If you became an atheist like Todd it would be neither good nor bad since there is nothing absolutely right or
                Message 7 of 7 , Sep 3 5:43 AM
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                  In coCBanned post #24426, Terry Benton writes, "If you became an atheist like Todd it would be neither good nor bad since there is nothing absolutely right or wrong."

                  This is Terry perpetuating his deliberately false straw man of my position. He continues to falsely pretend that "No such thing as an 'absolute moral standard' exists" is the same thing as saying "there is no such thing as moral standards", and now here even getting worse and falsely pretending that it's the same thing as saying "there is nothing absolutely right or wrong". Of course, I have never stated or implied any such things, and - notice carefully - we see that Terry is not even attempting to quote me as having said any such thing.

                  Well, the idea that the earth is the center of the universe and the sun and the planets orbit the earth is absolutely wrong. The idea that the earth didn't exist 25,000 or 100,000 years ago is absolutely wrong. We know this because of the relevant empirical facts that show that these ideas are wrong.

                  Poor Terry has such a horribly incoherent position that he knows he cannot support against rational criticism, so rather than even attempting to deal with the points of that rational criticism he choose to merely throw out all sorts of straw man lies here and there and then attack those (that's what straw-man tactics are for).

                  - Todd Greene
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